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Pay 2 win becoming legitimate? Have we really lost our way this much?

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  • ravtecravtec HolmestrandPosts: 214Member

    Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

    Blizzard is simply employing the farmers (via a strange commission arrangement) instead of allowing outside companies to profit.  As a player that doesn't work for Blizzard, there is nothing cool or useful about this switchover to me.  I don't really care if some poor starving guy in China is making money with which Blizzard could feed it's top executives.  It's the fact that the game will be full of farmers, like you, that makes me not want to play it multiplayer.

    There are several other people in this world that will agree with me.

    Aint the reason to play Diablo to farm items? Item hunting have always been the main reason i enjoy diablo games. The movie/story/character comes at a 2ndplace.

    If you have little to zero interest in hunting items diablo is abit shallow, there are tons of other games that does story/character much better then diablo+clones does.

  • LisXiaLisXia KowloonPosts: 390Member
    Originally posted by Raithe-Nor


    Originally posted by LisXia


    By your logic, you should not be playing any MMO that has a decent population. After all, farmers in your definition exist in possibly any game. Why pick on Blizzard, when games, anyone's games, Blizzard's games, will be population by quite some farmers anyway. What Gisgheron is saying boils down to, Blizzard and their RMAH move might be able to cut back on profitability of illegal farming sites, and that is good on it own, ignoring other repercussions. I see nothing wrong there. If you want to talk about repercussions, sure. If you hate farmers and will not play any game with a trace of farmer presence, sure. But going so rude on Gisgheron seems unwarranted. My view.

    1) Yes, farmers exist in every MMO.  Normally, they must keep a fairly low profile and if their harassment gets out of hand, a subscriber will be able to report them and expect action taken.  This will not be true for Diablo 3, obviously.  And while I can live with an MMO population that is 40-50% metagaming farmer, I won't be living with the 95% farmer crowd of Diablo 3.  The whole point of kicking gold farmers out of an MMO was due to their negative effect on the game environment and gameplay.  Those negative effects don't go away just because the farmers are now virtually the game's entire playerbase.  I'm not expecting this playerbase of farmers to get along with itself, either.  From my experience, such populations generally fizzle out only slightly slower than the regular player-folk who leave due to their presence.

    2) Illegal farming sites?  You mean illegal with respect to the terms of service?  Blizzard just made it "legal," so no, you don't get to claim "we're stamping out crime because crime is always bad."  The chief difference between this and the campaign to legalize drugs is that no one is ever put in a position where they purchase a syringe and then have to share needles with a drug addict to use it.  Without the online multiplayer aspect, there would be no demand for the RMAH.  The online multiplayer aspect, however, is exactly the part of the game that needs to be free of the RMAH.  This is purely a money grab, it has nothing to do with reducing crime or making gamers online experience better.

    3) I was never rude.  I merely stated facts that should have been evident in a manner that was blunt, because trying to make it clear with more refined dialog wasn't working.  In all honesty, I'm starting to get the feeling that the pro-RMAH side is being mostly fueled by a bigotted hatred of gold farmers and the countries that typically spawn them.

     

    I think the opposite is true. In a true MMO, farmers using a bot will be farming exactly where I will be, his bot will be competing with me.

    In D3, I will be in my own game, my own instance, I will never see his bot.

    In a normal MMO, farmers will gang up to pvp or train other players to keep a unique boss to them. In D3 I will be facing my own boss, only friends I invited into my copy of dungeon crawl will be there to share the fight and the loot.

    As for your percentages, you have a good detective system there. Because no one on earth, not even Blizzard, knows how many or who is exactly a farmer. You must be all mightly know all.

    Whatever the real percentages is, it does not matter to me in D3, because I will never see them. Take this corollary, there may be ghosts everywhere on earth, but I will never see them. Do I need to jump up and down in a forum talking about them?
  • LisXiaLisXia KowloonPosts: 390Member
    Originally posted by ravtec


    Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

    Blizzard is simply employing the farmers (via a strange commission arrangement) instead of allowing outside companies to profit.  As a player that doesn't work for Blizzard, there is nothing cool or useful about this switchover to me.  I don't really care if some poor starving guy in China is making money with which Blizzard could feed it's top executives.  It's the fact that the game will be full of farmers, like you, that makes me not want to play it multiplayer.

    There are several other people in this world that will agree with me.

    Aint the reason to play Diablo to farm items? Item hunting have always been the main reason i enjoy diablo games. The movie/story/character comes at a 2ndplace.

    If you have little to zero interest in hunting items diablo is abit shallow, there are tons of other games that does story/character much better then diablo+clones does.

     

    True that, for you, for me.

    It may not be true for others.

    But the million dollar question is, do we need to bother how the others play their game?
  • DvalonDvalon IrvinePosts: 314Member Uncommon

    Diablo 3 is pay to win, but because all items are found in game by players and then sold by players I dont see it as a bad pay to win, possibly the future for the pay to win market because it helps the players, they have the option keep the item or sell it, if they sell it they can then use that money to buy something esle.

    I think the fundimental issue I and a lot of others have with Pay to Win is the skill and wallet factor, I want my skill to count but when some one else who sucks as a player can just buy power which beats my skill then the game is lost to me, another issue is that these games suck up way more money per month than a monthly fee game does, as a result the trend seems to be play the game, buy shit loads in the first month or two, then realize what youv done and how much youv spent, get sick then leave the game.

     

    in the end the developer gets a quick buck but loses out in the long run cos they lost the player, and because these games are free to play, the game might still look active but its never long before its paying base drops out. and the game closes.

     

    I think the future for the pay to play market possibly the future of mmo gaming is a new model where the game is free to play, or you can pay a monthly fee, the monthly fee then earns you a wage in game where each month your character receives a wage from the king, or generel or what ever that you can spend on buy items, this way the free gamers hang about cos its free, the pay gamers pay a monthly fee to get the power items, but to keep getting or save for bigger power items they need to spend more time in the game, and play it for longer its a win win model.

  • crazynannycrazynanny PopowoPosts: 173Member

    Let's get back to Diablo 2 for a second. It's all about killing mobs for loot in order to progress.


    In single player You either played legitimately or used trainer such as hero editor. And frankly You didn't gave a damn how others played their single player sessions.


    In multi player on closed bnet You either played legitimately and farmed all loot by Yourself OR traded with people giving them benefit of doubt(as they could bought those items from farmers or dupe them) risking being scammed or even banned.

    Same with playing coop or vs. You had to give benefit of doubt to people You played with/against as they might or might not bought/duped their gear.


    Now we have Diablo 3 and tell me how RMAH have changed above, except giving You a choice to buy/sell items?

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,593Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

    Originally posted by LisXia


    By your logic, you should not be playing any MMO that has a decent population. After all, farmers in your definition exist in possibly any game. Why pick on Blizzard, when games, anyone's games, Blizzard's games, will be population by quite some farmers anyway. What Gisgheron is saying boils down to, Blizzard and their RMAH move might be able to cut back on profitability of illegal farming sites, and that is good on it own, ignoring other repercussions. I see nothing wrong there. If you want to talk about repercussions, sure. If you hate farmers and will not play any game with a trace of farmer presence, sure. But going so rude on Gisgheron seems unwarranted. My view.

    1) Yes, farmers exist in every MMO.  Normally, they must keep a fairly low profile and if their harassment gets out of hand, a subscriber will be able to report them and expect action taken.  This will not be true for Diablo 3, obviously.  And while I can live with an MMO population that is 40-50% metagaming farmer, I won't be living with the 95% farmer crowd of Diablo 3.  The whole point of kicking gold farmers out of an MMO was due to their negative effect on the game environment and gameplay.  Those negative effects don't go away just because the farmers are now virtually the game's entire playerbase.  I'm not expecting this playerbase of farmers to get along with itself, either.  From my experience, such populations generally fizzle out only slightly slower than the regular player-folk who leave due to their presence.

    2) Illegal farming sites?  You mean illegal with respect to the terms of service?  Blizzard just made it "legal," so no, you don't get to claim "we're stamping out crime because crime is always bad."  The chief difference between this and the campaign to legalize drugs is that no one is ever put in a position where they purchase a syringe and then have to share needles with a drug addict to use it.  Without the online multiplayer aspect, there would be no demand for the RMAH.  The online multiplayer aspect, however, is exactly the part of the game that needs to be free of the RMAH.  This is purely a money grab, it has nothing to do with reducing crime or making gamers online experience better.

    3) I was never rude.  I merely stated facts that should have been evident in a manner that was blunt, because trying to make it clear with more refined dialog wasn't working.  In all honesty, I'm starting to get the feeling that the pro-RMAH side is being mostly fueled by a bigotted hatred of gold farmers and the countries that typically spawn them.

     

    <Rolls eyes>

    Oh please... Not the OLD "racist" slur again...  In my view people are people. Period.  I at least make the attempt to judge each person by their own actions (though with collectivist ideologues like neo cons and neo libs, thats much more difficult).  In a sense most of us in MMO games are "farmers".  We are "farming" for EXP/Loot.  The main difference between us and the professional "farmers" is that we are doing it for ourselves, while they do it as a job (so they can get paid, and thus eat, or some such). 

    I really have nothing against the farmers themselves.  Its one HELL of a lot easier to farm gold and/or gear in some game like WoW, than to break ones back out in the fields.  The people I despise are those who lack the patience to get the gold, gear themselves, who thus provide the demand that the farmers bosses seek to supply.   If such is allowed within a game, (by the Dev's) I say more power to them. 

    I have never, and will never be part of that demand/supply cycle.  But I *do* use cash shops in games that I enjoy, to make certain that the Dev's are rewarded for their hard work, and investment.  As for those who are hysterical about D3's AH,  You don't have to play D3, if you object to the in game dynamics and/or business model. 

  • Raithe-NorRaithe-Nor Moscow, IDPosts: 315Member

    Originally posted by Wraithone

    1) Oh please... Not the OLD "racist" slur again...  In my view people are people. Period.  I at least make the attempt to judge each person by their own actions (though with collectivist ideologues like neo cons and neo libs, thats much more difficult).  In a sense most of us in MMO games are "farmers".  We are "farming" for EXP/Loot.  The main difference between us and the professional "farmers" is that we are doing it for ourselves, while they do it as a job (so they can get paid, and thus eat, or some such). 

    2) I really have nothing against the farmers themselves.  Its one HELL of a lot easier to farm gold and/or gear in some game like WoW, than to break ones back out in the fields.  The people I despise are those who lack the patience to get the gold, gear themselves, who thus provide the demand that the farmers bosses seek to supply.   If such is allowed within a game, (by the Dev's) I say more power to them. 

    3) I have never, and will never be part of that demand/supply cycle.  But I *do* use cash shops in games that I enjoy, to make certain that the Dev's are rewarded for their hard work, and investment.  As for those who are hysterical about D3's AH,  You don't have to play D3, if you object to the in game dynamics and/or business model. 

    1) I'm also someone who judges people on a per-case basis.  That's why I took exception to the automatic inclusion of myself in a "WE" that seemed to be separated from "THEM" by some ideology that didn't include the ideology of being anti-farming.  It seemed to me to be a reference that because "WE" are Americans, and "THEY" aren't (which is not a valid generalization), that I should side with Blizzard.  If I was mistaken about the generalization, then I was mistaken about it.

    I am NOT a farmer.  I understand that people who farm are typically oblivious to the other playstyles around them, because other playstyles are not typically detrimental to the metagame of farming.  Metagaming is definitely detrimental to other playstyles, however, so continuing to wear rose-colored glasses will not serve the gaming community well.  The whole point of my posting is not necessarily an infatuation with Diablo 3, I just want a pre-existing record of why I think this game will not have a strong multiplayer following before it happens.  It lends credence to my theory of the cause when it occurs.

    2) Yes, the people who buy the items from employed farmers are more of a problem than the farmers themselves.  That is why it seems like the developers in this situation don't understand that and don't really know what they are doing.  It's their playerbase that is the problem, not necessarily people trying to make a living off from that issue.

    3) No one is getting hysterical at this computer terminal.  This is a discussion, and if it seems like someone is getting hyper, it's simply due to posters who don't read or understand the preceding discussion.  As I already mentioned, bluntness is a weapon used when making points doesn't seem to penetrate.

    People seem to want to make this discussion entirely about Diablo 3 specifics, but Diablo 3 was simply an example used at the beginning of this thread.  In reality, the effects of this Blizzard tactic may have an impact on the entire online gaming community.  And yes, I have a substantial amount of experience (about 25 years or so) that allows me to make that claim.

  • mizanyxmizanyx Mexico CityPosts: 70Member

    Most of us in MMO games have accustomed to repetitive timesinks as the only way for character development. But as the average gamer age is around 30's, our time priorities change and we realize that investing countless hours in leveling / gearing / raiding only to stay competitive at PvP is sometimes in detriment of our IRL schedules.

    So, as long as the current MMO character advancement model stays based on timesinks, there will be a customer base for anyone that sells character advancement in any form. Pay-per-advancement has been with us since the very first times of MMOs and it won't be gone soon, so the best companies can do is minimize collateral damage (credit card scamming and such). The merit of Blizzard is realizing that very truth, and acting accordingly focusing in collateral damages instead of trying in vain to extinguish RMT trading.

    The MMO game scene will change, truly, and most people will realize that as MMOs are NOT games of skill (or at least, not of pure skill in a Halo / Soul Calibur / DotA sense), RMT character advancing is NOT cheating.

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon

    If you pay £10 a month by subscribing, and £120 a year on average in game shops then it makes no difference.  Some people are getting all hot under the collar because they are confusing cash shops that offer well balanced items and games that are deliberatly exploiting by offering best in slot items or consumables for cash.   That is the only issue with cash shops.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • StonesDKStonesDK SomewherePosts: 1,805Member

    Originally posted by Bladestrom

    If you pay £10 a month by subscribing, and £120 a year on average in game shops then it makes no difference.  Some people are getting all hot under the collar because they are confusing cash shops that offer well balanced items and games that are deliberatly exploiting by offering best in slot items or consumables for cash.   That is the only issue with cash shops.

    This is D3 we are talking about. An ARPG that shouldn't have had any kind of RMT linked to it period.

  • tinuelletinuelle bergenPosts: 287Member Uncommon

    5 bucks for an item beats 4 hours raiding, then rolling with 6 others for 1 item any day!

    Play for advantage equals pay for advantage.

    Just as time equals money.

     

    image
  • StonesDKStonesDK SomewherePosts: 1,805Member

    Originally posted by tinuelle

    5 bucks for an item beats 4 hours raiding, then rolling with 6 others for 1 item any day!

    Play for advantage equals pay for advantage.

    Just as time equals money.

     

    When It comes to MMOs I think RMT like this would be an excellent idea. Raids are a hassle I personally don't feel like dealing with

  • LisXiaLisXia KowloonPosts: 390Member

    Originally posted by Starpower

    Originally posted by Bladestrom

    If you pay £10 a month by subscribing, and £120 a year on average in game shops then it makes no difference.  Some people are getting all hot under the collar because they are confusing cash shops that offer well balanced items and games that are deliberatly exploiting by offering best in slot items or consumables for cash.   That is the only issue with cash shops.

    This is D3 we are talking about. An ARPG that shouldn't have had any kind of RMT linked to it period.

    Be realistic, what you think as "should not" does not rule the world.

    D2 has tons of cash shop, they are not run by Blizzard, but they are cash shop all the same.  If you think Blizzard can stop RMT by withdrawing the RMAH option, dream on.

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member

    Originally posted by Starpower

    Originally posted by Bladestrom

    If you pay £10 a month by subscribing, and £120 a year on average in game shops then it makes no difference.  Some people are getting all hot under the collar because they are confusing cash shops that offer well balanced items and games that are deliberatly exploiting by offering best in slot items or consumables for cash.   That is the only issue with cash shops.

    This is D3 we are talking about. An ARPG that shouldn't have had any kind of RMT linked to it period.

    Says who?

    It is naive to think you will stop RMT in a blockbuster game like D3. Blizzard tried it with D2 and it didn't worked.

    If we stretch the comparison, what's the difference with me paying someone to sit in front of my pc to get 'Sword of Awesome' and me buying it straight up?

    The second scenario gets rid of the shady stuff (key-loggers etc) that companies have to deal with when their customer uses RMTs.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAPosts: 5,212Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Starpower

    Originally posted by tinuelle

    5 bucks for an item beats 4 hours raiding, then rolling with 6 others for 1 item any day!

    Play for advantage equals pay for advantage.

    Just as time equals money.

     

    When It comes to MMOs I think RMT like this would be an excellent idea. Raids are a hassle I personally don't feel like dealing with

     I've never understood this. If you don't enjoy raiding why would you pay to play a game that focuses on raiding? Wouldn't it be better to find a game you enjoy playing?

    "Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  • StonesDKStonesDK SomewherePosts: 1,805Member

    Originally posted by zymurgeist

    Originally posted by Starpower


    Originally posted by tinuelle

    5 bucks for an item beats 4 hours raiding, then rolling with 6 others for 1 item any day!

    Play for advantage equals pay for advantage.

    Just as time equals money.

     

    When It comes to MMOs I think RMT like this would be an excellent idea. Raids are a hassle I personally don't feel like dealing with

     I've never understood this. If you don't enjoy raiding why would you pay to play a game that focuses on raiding? Wouldn't it be better to find a game you enjoy playing?

    I find many things in MMOs enjoying. Even levelling up and experiencing the content on the way there. Even if i only play a MMO for a month I still get my moneys worth considering single player games is over in a few days

  • ShizaxxxShizaxxx XxXPosts: 86Member

    I guess it is P2W. 

     

    Let's take D3 for example. Sure, you can buy a set of full "epics" (or what it's called in the new D3), for real cash, and you will become good on some level. 

     

    But those people who raid/farm 5 days a week, will finally get rewarded. It might only be 5 dollars a week, but it's still something. And those things you DO need, you can always keep for yourself. 

    Besides, let's face it; the MMORPG genre has opened it's doors for a more broad audience - and not everyone has 4-5 hours pr. day. 

    I think it's fair that P2W is present to some degree, but it should be renamed from Pay To Win, to "Pay To Compete"

  • blackcat35blackcat35 Lake Orion, MIPosts: 479Member

    we need to start implementing PAY TO WIN  more often in games.  You pay extra money besides buying the game, and you don't even have to play the game, you win automatically and can move on to something else to do.

    ==========================
    The game is dead not, this game is good we make it and Romania Tv give it 5 goat heads, this is good rating for game.

  • Raithe-NorRaithe-Nor Moscow, IDPosts: 315Member

    Originally posted by blackcat35

    we need to start implementing PAY TO WIN  more often in games.  You pay extra money besides buying the game, and you don't even have to play the game, you win automatically and can move on to something else to do.

    I think this is not far from the truth, and brings up several good points.

    There is actually nothing wrong with starting at high level in an RPG, if that is where you really want to start playing.  The problem with starting at cap in an MMO is due to the following:

    1) It causes a lack of diversification of the playerbase.  This means there are less players available with which to group for someone who does want to enjoy character development and a dynamic story with changing gameplay.  It also means there are fewer players available for subordinate positions in a sandbox game (or at least fewer players with gears and stats suitable for taking such positions).

    2) It lacks storyline.  An MMORPG was supposed to be about players sharing storylines to some degree (it's called roleplaying).  Not knowing how your character got to high level would make it more difficult to interact with other characters that had less superficial backgrounds.

    3) It bypasses content.  If 90% of a development team's effort went into the game design for lower levels, the game has a lot less appeal to someone who skips that 90%.

    All of these things apply to Diablo 3 to some degree, as well.  If you don't want to play the game to develop a character/avatar and its gear, why do you want to play at all?  Why not just pay for the avatar and gear you want, then move on to a different game?  If you did, it would prevent the true problem of someone like me having to tolerate you in my group.

    The problem, of course, is that people don't really want what they think they want.  That is why providing an RMAH will not work as expected.

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Koolawachie, SCPosts: 14,495Member

    Originally posted by Starpower

    Originally posted by tinuelle

    5 bucks for an item beats 4 hours raiding, then rolling with 6 others for 1 item any day!

    Play for advantage equals pay for advantage.

    Just as time equals money.

     

    When It comes to MMOs I think RMT like this would be an excellent idea. Raids are a hassle I personally don't feel like dealing with

     

    I would prefer a system where everyone in the raid gets a component of the item.

    The item may have 6 components, which would mean if you do the raid successfully 6 times, you get the item, no rolling.

    image

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Koolawachie, SCPosts: 14,495Member

    Originally posted by Dvalon

    I think the future for the pay to play market possibly the future of mmo gaming is a new model where the game is free to play, or you can pay a monthly fee, the monthly fee then earns you a wage in game where each month your character receives a wage from the king, or generel or what ever that you can spend on buy items, this way the free gamers hang about cos its free, the pay gamers pay a monthly fee to get the power items, but to keep getting or save for bigger power items they need to spend more time in the game, and play it for longer its a win win model.

     

    I would not play that game.

    The "wage" thing sounds horrible in the extreme, and would completely ruin my gaming experience if I had to go buy items from a shop just because I was subbed for a month.

    I want my character to exist when it is logged into the game world, and to only earn items and money by killing mobs and doing quests.

    image

  • Swollen_BeefSwollen_Beef Tampa, FLPosts: 200Member

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    Originally posted by Dvalon



    I think the future for the pay to play market possibly the future of mmo gaming is a new model where the game is free to play, or you can pay a monthly fee, the monthly fee then earns you a wage in game where each month your character receives a wage from the king, or generel or what ever that you can spend on buy items, this way the free gamers hang about cos its free, the pay gamers pay a monthly fee to get the power items, but to keep getting or save for bigger power items they need to spend more time in the game, and play it for longer its a win win model.

     

    I would not play that game.

     

    This

  • GishgeronGishgeron Princeton, KYPosts: 1,287Member

    Originally posted by Swollen_Beef

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp


    Originally posted by Dvalon



    I think the future for the pay to play market possibly the future of mmo gaming is a new model where the game is free to play, or you can pay a monthly fee, the monthly fee then earns you a wage in game where each month your character receives a wage from the king, or generel or what ever that you can spend on buy items, this way the free gamers hang about cos its free, the pay gamers pay a monthly fee to get the power items, but to keep getting or save for bigger power items they need to spend more time in the game, and play it for longer its a win win model.

     

    I would not play that game.

     

    This

     

     

      You already play that game.  He just defined the traditional MMO pricing model.  You pay monthly, and the longer you can play the more stuff you get.  If you can't play as much, you don't get as much as other players will.

      HA HA HA HA....THIS is how bad the wool has been pulled over most of you!

    image

  • Raithe-NorRaithe-Nor Moscow, IDPosts: 315Member

    Originally posted by Gishgeron

    You already play that game.  He just defined the traditional MMO pricing model.  You pay monthly, and the longer you can play the more stuff you get.  If you can't play as much, you don't get as much as other players will.

      HA HA HA HA....THIS is how bad the wool has been pulled over most of you!

    When will you even get the smallest of clues that for some people, the game is actually playing the game - fighting mobs or other characters, completing quests, and making the character behave as if it really was a character in a fantasy novel.

    You are the one sitting in an MMORPG forum without an iota of understanding of what these games are about or who they are for.  I think you might need to search around a bit more to figure out who has really been conned.  I would suggest looking in the mirror to start.

  • ChilliesauceChilliesauce MelbournePosts: 559Member

    Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

    Originally posted by Gishgeron

    You already play that game.  He just defined the traditional MMO pricing model.  You pay monthly, and the longer you can play the more stuff you get.  If you can't play as much, you don't get as much as other players will.

      HA HA HA HA....THIS is how bad the wool has been pulled over most of you!

    When will you even get the smallest of clues that for some people, the game is actually playing the game - fighting mobs or other characters, completing quests, and making the character behave as if it really was a character in a fantasy novel.

    You are the one sitting in an MMORPG forum without an iota of understanding of what these games are about or who they are for.  I think you might need to search around a bit more to figure out who has really been conned.  I might suggest looking in the mirror to start.

    And i can still do all that ignoring the AH. So what is the problem? are you forced to use AH? 

    image

This discussion has been closed.