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Pay 2 win becoming legitimate? Have we really lost our way this much?
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Well if you wanna talk Diablo 3 then yea. Its going to be a problem. Leaving aside for one moment the usual complaints of a pay to win model, such as it being unfair, there's going to be larger problems.
Like whole groups of people finding the best rare loot drop spots and just farming the daylights out of them. You might hypothetically be able to make some income with this game. Well people are darn well going to try it. Which lets in an entire mass of people who really are not playing to have fun. They're playing it to farm. They're making a business out of it. Its going to be a LOT of people. Plus Ive heard there's not even a real single player mode. Oh boy......yea....this is gonna be great.
Is that really who most people want to play with? I play games to have fun. But even I might be subseptable to this. I buy the game. Im having fun. Suddenly a rare drops and I sell it for 4 bucks. Holy crap! I just made 4 bucks from playing a video game!!! MORE! MOOOORE! And suddenly Im staying up till 6am not because Im having fun, but because the greed demon is sitting on my back, whipping me.
This is the way it will work. People will come to the game with farming drops mainly in mind. At least half the people who bought the game just to have a good time will suddenly convert once they make their first 10 bucks. And suddenly? The game isnt fun for anyone. Its work. Your job away from....your job.
Thats a major problem the way I see it.
You still cannot jump out of your mindset. It is NOT an issue what I accept or not. It does not matter, cos the world will spin on its own.
For me D3 is going to be a game, another game, That is all. I do not need to, do not want to, do not have time to, be bothered with what others are doing with their copy of the game, their copy of the instance of dungeon crawling. They can be dancing inside, they can be aoeing, cheating, and then selling godly items. That has nothing to do with me. I will never see them, join their dungeon crawls, or even know who they are. I play my own copy, solo, and that is it.
I do not call it a game, to me D3 is just a solo dungron crawler, that is how I am going to use it. I do not see how AH will change that to me. As for how it will change the way others play, why does it matter to me? It is their freedom and it does not affect others that much. It is neither a serious medical problem nor as much a social issue as drugs or alcohol. If we need to be so concerned with a game, well ... there is no right way to play a game.
That said, I am not sure I am going to buy D3. That is another issue.
If that is going to changing the way you approach D3, oh well, just relax, you can tell yourself that you change for the better. Just believe that is true.
As for profit making, you know how many will be playing this game? I bet it will be millions. Except for some really rare drops that has 1 in a million chance of dropping, we will see quite a lot of drops for the general items. With such a huge supply, there is little chance of "inflation". As for the millionth chance rare drop, they will cost a lot but you need to farm months to get one, only a few can get rich that way. As a job, D3 is not going to be very reliable a source of income.
The only problem I see is excessive addiction to farming that purple sword that sells for US$4000 last week, but it might never drop again. I hope no one gets sent to hospital playing D3 straight up for 3 weeks.
Thats very reasonable to assume. Very few people may make any money with this game. It has yet to be seen really. But I have to assume you're correct for the most part.
But as you said in your last sentence, it sure wont keep people from TRYING too. A purple sword that sells for 4000 bucks? If there was a blue shield that sells well for 12 bucks people will go nuts trying to find it. What about the dagger that sells for 40 ? The game just paid for itself. If there's anything I know from playing online games, its that farmers are in mass supply. This WILL make it worse than anything we've probably seen before. Plus there's always an enormous amount of people who gladly spend stupid amounts of money on digital stuff. People with money like to spend it. Even if its for a silly digital helmet in a computer game. So you've got the workers and the buyers. And in between? The people trying to have fun in the middle.
I don't understand what you mean by this
The mindset of why I wanted to play D3?, my take on how I feel about RMT? or me understanding why you play for different reasons?
Why don't I just tackle them all
1. I don't play ARPG as solo experiences. Never have never will. It's the one reason why I never bought Torchlight. No multiplayer
2. My take on RMT will never change because it has to do with the fundamentals of why I play these games in conjunction with others. Again I don't play them as solo experiences so what others do matters. If I spent a week getting an item just knowing others can just plump down money it's going to affect me. If you want a deeper explanation as to why that is, you have to go a couple pages back. I already explained it quite well If I do say so myself. I also explained why it didn't bothe me in D2
3. As for me understanding where you are coming from. I do It just doesn't have anything to do with me, nor my reasons for playing these games, nor my motivational factors when dealing with loot as it is. I'm happy for you that you can look past it, but to me it's like having sex with a fat chick.
Some guys get turned on by it, some may sleep with one but deny it to their friends(much like claiming they won't buy D3 then do it on launch day), some won't even be able to get their winky hard because they get completely turned off. I'm in the last category. It doesn't matter if she has a pretty face and a great personality. Being fat just doesn't do it for me
You stay in your mindset, that things must be the way you see it. It works for you but it stops at you.
I respect your view, I do not employ your line of thinking when approaching my gaming hours. We differ, period.
Sad thing is, at least for gaming, everyone is his own boss, even in an MMO, much more so for D3, which CAN BE played as a solo game, even if Blizzard dictates we must stay online. Setting a password in your own dungeon crawl makes it a solo game.
Now if you let the actions of others affect you, affects your mood, limits your choice, that puts you in a disadvantage. It is mute trying to argue whether it is right or wrong. There is nothing right or wrong in such grey area as gaming, so long as it does not breaches ToA.
I already stated that I play D3 as a solo game, because I see little gains from joining random people. I only team up occasionally with friends. There is too little mechanism inside a dungeon crawler for meaningful multiplayer experience.
I already stated that I see a game as a game. I do not need to call it a game, it is to me just that 30 minutes every day twice a week, with no repercussion on other aspects of my life. My hours in the gym, reading has far more impact, so I tend to place very little weight on matters pertinent to a game. The maximum loss to me is just the box, I can discard the game and move onto another or log out. I just cannot see how I feel hurt if someone buy the rare drop I get through playing. If someonoe cheat to get a professional license and join my profession, I might be alarmed but D3 is just a game.
As for your analogy of fat lady or whatever, I cannot understand it, nor feel the need to go pervert to discuss a minor issue about a game. I will leave that hobby to you.
There's a lot of things you don't understand in life that much is apparent. There is no choice. It's like forcing me to like Justin Beiber then telling me I'm stuck in my mindset for not being able to. Well of course I am and it's not a choice. It just is. Maybe a Justin Beiber analogy serves you better than adult speak
And what prevents you from having fun? I don't know how YOU play Diablo games...but I just run solo until a friend can play (friend is loose terminology...anyone I game with regularly, they don't have to be intimate) and then we game togther. If we have items to trade, we trade. In a larger scope, I would do the same. I would make like minded friends and then play casually with them. What other players do is irrelevant to me. They can farm their respective instanced game however they wish and it does not prevent me from also killing said critter in my own game. It does not harm my personal gameplay. I'd never use an auction house for Diable items anyway...the fun for ME is in seeing that random awesome drop. Its like opening a pack of new cards...you never know what it will be. I love that. I love getting that random thing, and then building my character, and seeing the two play out together.
Whether there are 10 farmers or 10 million...it will not impact me or the way I play. Frankly...anyone using an auction to get items they did not earn themselves are basically "paying to win"...just with different currency. I've got friends that have even used other RMT i other games. It did not impact me in those games either. Abundant farming did on some MMO's I've played....but it was nothing I could not bear. In fact, I usually play on PvP servers so..really...it was like shooting fish in a barrel. If they bothered me, I'd kill them. But that is neither here nor there, this is Diablo, and there is no persistant world here. Farming is not an issue, not here anyway. Will people go crazy trying to make money? Sure. They already do, but apparently the folks around here don't realize that a good half of the RMT market is created by US...not crazy ninja asian farmers. I can go right now and post all the characters I've made in WoW, as an example, and sell them. No problem. I won't, for reasons that don't apply here. But I COULD, and so many others DO.
What I WILL do is play Diablo 3. PLay it like I always play a Diablo game....and at the end, when I keep getting items I'd rather not have, or duplicates of those I do, I will sell them on the RMT Blizzard offers me. If I make only a quarter per sale...then I'm still probably making more than I'd ever need to playing a video game. Also, since I'm not worried about keeping the value high, I'll be helping kill the market for business farmers. They have bottom lines to hit, after all...and I do not. This, more than anything, will be why the kind of RMT you are used to seeing won't be here. Farmers are a business. They have overhead....employees of some form or another. They have a certain amount of money to make. WE don't...and in fact, any money we make at all will be more than we have been. The real money value of items will sink into a DEEP well, one likely far removed from the profit margin any Farming organization could manage. Most of them will probably leave D3 in favor of better hunting grounds with less competition. Thats the big thing...you don't see 10 sandwich shops in the same small town because too much competition always means a few victors make all the money while the most do not. No sensible money maker will go where his trade is in low demand. In D3 there is ZERO demand for a farmer. ZERO. Not just low...but ZERO. Millions of other players are already taking that position.
Bottom line? Play the stupid game. Go grind some dungeons with your friends and enjoy the progression any sensible person would. If the other people you DON'T play with want to miss out on that..let em. They will pay for the game, and lose on its fun. And for their loss...WE WILL PROFIT. We will be paid for playing legitimately. Our time WILL have higher value...for it will be the only time which has net gain, and not loss. I shall play the same Diablo, and shall now be REWARDED for being the kind of gamer that enjoys games.
What is so hard to see in this? I have spoken truly, and directly. In an MMO, things are different. RMT is different. RMT is different in a open setting than it is in a strictly closed setting.
Too bad I do not know anything about Justin Beiber apart from he being a boy singer. Nor do I see the need for your adult speak, if adult speak to you means using such derogatory discussions as "sex with fat lady" as a vehicle for expression.
There is choice, every choice there is. You do not need to play D3, you do not need to join anyone (you can play solo, you do not, that is not a lacking in choice), you do not need to trade with anyone, you do not need to use any AH, you do not need to buy or sell.
If you find it irresistable temptation, it is your own weak will. If you see a knife and feel the temptation to stab your own dog, it is not a lacking in choice. You cannot use that as defense in court.
You just pretty much sumed up exactly my play style. I like to solo for the most part. I could care less what other people do or buy and it has little to no effect on me playing the game.
Except for one small potential problem. I said "potential" there.
What happens when you cant even really get mobs killed in an area because they're being farmed like mad? What happens when so and so creature gets targeted as a spawn that drops a rare loot? Mass farming. It'll feel like a zoo in some areas. POTENTIALLY, not necessarily.
But thats okay too because the game has a single player mode that'll just let me fly by all that madness and....oh....no it doesnt. Crap.
So this is my only real worry. Not that I care too much because Dialbo 3 is not the end all be all of existence. Not even totally sure if I'll be picking it up. Its just that Ive never heard of anything like this cash shop before. Where people are selling game items for real world currency in an in game auction house. There's got to be some unforseen problems with that. That does not sound like a problem free, simple implementation.
But you made your point well and thats exactly how I would play D3. Hopefully it wont be an issue at all. All Im saying is it could be. Even for the player that enjoys playing alone or only with a friend or two occasionally, and prefers to stay out of all the rif raf drama that goes on around them.
I'm trying hard not to insult you but the more you post the harder it becomes.
From reading this latest post of yours I can conclude a few things
1. You are not ok with analogies concerning sex (maybe you have issues with sex I don't know) but using stabbing a dog as an analogy is ok. I'll just let that stand as it is
2. You have shifted a discussion about there being a choice of what you like and what you do not like, to if there's a choice about whether to play or not to play... well duh.
3. You haven't read any of my previous posts in this thread as I suggested you do. I don't feel like repeating myself. If you don't feel like doing that, then do us both a favor and move along.
You forgot to add the traditional; "Now get off my lawn!"... ^^ I remember the old days myself. Hell, I remember when pong, asteroids, missile command and space invaders first came out. Games have come a long, LONG way since then. But one fact remains, if you enjoy a game play it. If you don't, find one that you do (or another hobby).
F2P is a business model and if one doesn't like that business model, no one is forcing anyone to participate.
So not seeing what the issue is.
How one spends one's money is ultimately up to the individual.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
You are right, only we are not discussing if we should buy the game or not. That has already been decided by most of us.
As to what the issue is about. People have been looking forward to this title only to be disappointed. Part of life I know, but it's only natural to spark a debate on the subject.
If you don't feel like participating in it, then feel free to choose a different subject in another thread.
Lost our way? More like embrace a new way.
There is no reason why the old way is better .. it is just what you use to.
WE? You think you are anymore my friend than some guy named mmocash.com?
This is where you simply will never get it, but I'm going to explain it for everyone else's sake. The farmers aren't gone because you have zero overhead. YOU are the farmer with zero overhead. In a direct side-by-side comparison between you and Chin, there is absolutely nothing that I can point out about Chin that doesn't apply to you too.
Blizzard is simply employing the farmers (via a strange commission arrangement) instead of allowing outside companies to profit. As a player that doesn't work for Blizzard, there is nothing cool or useful about this switchover to me. I don't really care if some poor starving guy in China is making money with which Blizzard could feed it's top executives. It's the fact that the game will be full of farmers, like you, that makes me not want to play it multiplayer.
There are several other people in this world that will agree with me.
WE? You think you are anymore my friend than some guy named mmocash.com?
This is where you simply will never get it, but I'm going to explain it for everyone else's sake. The farmers aren't gone because you have zero overhead. YOU are the farmer with zero overhead. In a direct side-by-side comparison between you and Chin, there is absolutely nothing that I can point out about Chin that doesn't apply to you too.
Blizzard is simply employing the farmers (via a strange commission arrangement) instead of allowing outside companies to profit. As a player that doesn't work for Blizzard, there is nothing cool or useful about this switchover to me. I don't really care if some poor starving guy in China is making money with which Blizzard could feed it's top executives. It's the fact that the game will be full of farmers, like you, that makes me not want to play it multiplayer.
There are several other people in this world that will agree with me.
By your logic, you should not be playing any MMO that has a decent population. After all, farmers in your definition exist in possibly any game. Why pick on Blizzard, when games, anyone's games, Blizzard's games, will be population by quite some farmers anyway.What Gisgheron is saying boils down to, Blizzard and their RMAH move might be able to cut back on profitability of illegal farming sites, and that is good on it own, ignoring other repercussions. I see nothing wrong there. If you want to talk about repercussions, sure. If you hate farmers and will not play any game with a trace of farmer presence, sure. But going so rude on Gisgheron seems unwarranted.
My view.
1) Yes, farmers exist in every MMO. Normally, they must keep a fairly low profile and if their harassment gets out of hand, a subscriber will be able to report them and expect action taken. This will not be true for Diablo 3, obviously. And while I can live with an MMO population that is 40-50% metagaming farmer, I won't be living with the 95% farmer crowd of Diablo 3. The whole point of kicking gold farmers out of an MMO was due to their negative effect on the game environment and gameplay. Those negative effects don't go away just because the farmers are now virtually the game's entire playerbase. I'm not expecting this playerbase of farmers to get along with itself, either. From my experience, such populations generally fizzle out only slightly slower than the regular player-folk who leave due to their presence.
2) Illegal farming sites? You mean illegal with respect to the terms of service? Blizzard just made it "legal," so no, you don't get to claim "we're stamping out crime because crime is always bad." The chief difference between this and the campaign to legalize drugs is that no one is ever put in a position where they purchase a syringe and then have to share needles with a drug addict to use it. Without the online multiplayer aspect, there would be no demand for the RMAH. The online multiplayer aspect, however, is exactly the part of the game that needs to be free of the RMAH. This is purely a money grab, it has nothing to do with reducing crime or making gamers online experience better.
3) I was never rude. I merely stated facts that should have been evident in a manner that was blunt, because trying to make it clear with more refined dialog wasn't working. In all honesty, I'm starting to get the feeling that the pro-RMAH side is being mostly fueled by a bigotted hatred of gold farmers and the countries that typically spawn them.
Aint the reason to play Diablo to farm items? Item hunting have always been the main reason i enjoy diablo games. The movie/story/character comes at a 2ndplace.
If you have little to zero interest in hunting items diablo is abit shallow, there are tons of other games that does story/character much better then diablo+clones does.
1) Yes, farmers exist in every MMO. Normally, they must keep a fairly low profile and if their harassment gets out of hand, a subscriber will be able to report them and expect action taken. This will not be true for Diablo 3, obviously. And while I can live with an MMO population that is 40-50% metagaming farmer, I won't be living with the 95% farmer crowd of Diablo 3. The whole point of kicking gold farmers out of an MMO was due to their negative effect on the game environment and gameplay. Those negative effects don't go away just because the farmers are now virtually the game's entire playerbase. I'm not expecting this playerbase of farmers to get along with itself, either. From my experience, such populations generally fizzle out only slightly slower than the regular player-folk who leave due to their presence.
2) Illegal farming sites? You mean illegal with respect to the terms of service? Blizzard just made it "legal," so no, you don't get to claim "we're stamping out crime because crime is always bad." The chief difference between this and the campaign to legalize drugs is that no one is ever put in a position where they purchase a syringe and then have to share needles with a drug addict to use it. Without the online multiplayer aspect, there would be no demand for the RMAH. The online multiplayer aspect, however, is exactly the part of the game that needs to be free of the RMAH. This is purely a money grab, it has nothing to do with reducing crime or making gamers online experience better.
3) I was never rude. I merely stated facts that should have been evident in a manner that was blunt, because trying to make it clear with more refined dialog wasn't working. In all honesty, I'm starting to get the feeling that the pro-RMAH side is being mostly fueled by a bigotted hatred of gold farmers and the countries that typically spawn them.
I think the opposite is true. In a true MMO, farmers using a bot will be farming exactly where I will be, his bot will be competing with me.In D3, I will be in my own game, my own instance, I will never see his bot.
In a normal MMO, farmers will gang up to pvp or train other players to keep a unique boss to them. In D3 I will be facing my own boss, only friends I invited into my copy of dungeon crawl will be there to share the fight and the loot.
As for your percentages, you have a good detective system there. Because no one on earth, not even Blizzard, knows how many or who is exactly a farmer. You must be all mightly know all.
Whatever the real percentages is, it does not matter to me in D3, because I will never see them. Take this corollary, there may be ghosts everywhere on earth, but I will never see them. Do I need to jump up and down in a forum talking about them?
Aint the reason to play Diablo to farm items? Item hunting have always been the main reason i enjoy diablo games. The movie/story/character comes at a 2ndplace.
If you have little to zero interest in hunting items diablo is abit shallow, there are tons of other games that does story/character much better then diablo+clones does.
True that, for you, for me.It may not be true for others.
But the million dollar question is, do we need to bother how the others play their game?
Diablo 3 is pay to win, but because all items are found in game by players and then sold by players I dont see it as a bad pay to win, possibly the future for the pay to win market because it helps the players, they have the option keep the item or sell it, if they sell it they can then use that money to buy something esle.
I think the fundimental issue I and a lot of others have with Pay to Win is the skill and wallet factor, I want my skill to count but when some one else who sucks as a player can just buy power which beats my skill then the game is lost to me, another issue is that these games suck up way more money per month than a monthly fee game does, as a result the trend seems to be play the game, buy shit loads in the first month or two, then realize what youv done and how much youv spent, get sick then leave the game.
in the end the developer gets a quick buck but loses out in the long run cos they lost the player, and because these games are free to play, the game might still look active but its never long before its paying base drops out. and the game closes.
I think the future for the pay to play market possibly the future of mmo gaming is a new model where the game is free to play, or you can pay a monthly fee, the monthly fee then earns you a wage in game where each month your character receives a wage from the king, or generel or what ever that you can spend on buy items, this way the free gamers hang about cos its free, the pay gamers pay a monthly fee to get the power items, but to keep getting or save for bigger power items they need to spend more time in the game, and play it for longer its a win win model.
Let's get back to Diablo 2 for a second. It's all about killing mobs for loot in order to progress.
In single player You either played legitimately or used trainer such as hero editor. And frankly You didn't gave a damn how others played their single player sessions.
In multi player on closed bnet You either played legitimately and farmed all loot by Yourself OR traded with people giving them benefit of doubt(as they could bought those items from farmers or dupe them) risking being scammed or even banned.
Same with playing coop or vs. You had to give benefit of doubt to people You played with/against as they might or might not bought/duped their gear.
Now we have Diablo 3 and tell me how RMAH have changed above, except giving You a choice to buy/sell items?
<Rolls eyes>
Oh please... Not the OLD "racist" slur again... In my view people are people. Period. I at least make the attempt to judge each person by their own actions (though with collectivist ideologues like neo cons and neo libs, thats much more difficult). In a sense most of us in MMO games are "farmers". We are "farming" for EXP/Loot. The main difference between us and the professional "farmers" is that we are doing it for ourselves, while they do it as a job (so they can get paid, and thus eat, or some such).
I really have nothing against the farmers themselves. Its one HELL of a lot easier to farm gold and/or gear in some game like WoW, than to break ones back out in the fields. The people I despise are those who lack the patience to get the gold, gear themselves, who thus provide the demand that the farmers bosses seek to supply. If such is allowed within a game, (by the Dev's) I say more power to them.
I have never, and will never be part of that demand/supply cycle. But I *do* use cash shops in games that I enjoy, to make certain that the Dev's are rewarded for their hard work, and investment. As for those who are hysterical about D3's AH, You don't have to play D3, if you object to the in game dynamics and/or business model.
1) I'm also someone who judges people on a per-case basis. That's why I took exception to the automatic inclusion of myself in a "WE" that seemed to be separated from "THEM" by some ideology that didn't include the ideology of being anti-farming. It seemed to me to be a reference that because "WE" are Americans, and "THEY" aren't (which is not a valid generalization), that I should side with Blizzard. If I was mistaken about the generalization, then I was mistaken about it.
I am NOT a farmer. I understand that people who farm are typically oblivious to the other playstyles around them, because other playstyles are not typically detrimental to the metagame of farming. Metagaming is definitely detrimental to other playstyles, however, so continuing to wear rose-colored glasses will not serve the gaming community well. The whole point of my posting is not necessarily an infatuation with Diablo 3, I just want a pre-existing record of why I think this game will not have a strong multiplayer following before it happens. It lends credence to my theory of the cause when it occurs.
2) Yes, the people who buy the items from employed farmers are more of a problem than the farmers themselves. That is why it seems like the developers in this situation don't understand that and don't really know what they are doing. It's their playerbase that is the problem, not necessarily people trying to make a living off from that issue.
3) No one is getting hysterical at this computer terminal. This is a discussion, and if it seems like someone is getting hyper, it's simply due to posters who don't read or understand the preceding discussion. As I already mentioned, bluntness is a weapon used when making points doesn't seem to penetrate.
People seem to want to make this discussion entirely about Diablo 3 specifics, but Diablo 3 was simply an example used at the beginning of this thread. In reality, the effects of this Blizzard tactic may have an impact on the entire online gaming community. And yes, I have a substantial amount of experience (about 25 years or so) that allows me to make that claim.