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Hey With (Diablo 3) doing something new with the RMT age of MMORPG,, I was wondering. when will we g

MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon

Diablo 3, the upcoming MMORPG from Blizzard Entertainment, has steered up great controversy over its new Real Auction House system.



Well sinces its our money thats playing for these Virtual Items,,, I feel its about time MMORPG companies abandon this ideal, that we the player consumer base, have No legal ownership over our virtual characters and items.

We pay for these virtual "objects of code", so we deserve to be owners of that "object of coding".



I really dislike how these MMO Companies can ban people's account without reason.

just like that guy from WoTLK (forgot his name, but him and his friends were some of the first to reach close to max level before getting ban hammer from Blizzard after a GM said it was ok. But later they did get their accounts back) But I simply dislike how they can ban and close out all our hard earned "Objects of Code"



In my opinion, we have sat back and let this mess go on for so long, that even Smartphone makers like Apple are picking up on these crazy habits. They can shut your Iphone/Ipad down if they see fit. WTF?!



Come on people... Its about time we get some ownership... Hey if you want to ban my account,,, I want a refund of everything,,,, every single cent I spent in the item mall/ RAH (Real Auction House)

 

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Comments

  • EzhaeEzhae LondonPosts: 737Member

    Never. For a simple reasons. 

     

    First thing is the fact that legal systems vary between countries and even states. As long as the company holds the rights to character all legal stuff is on their grounds, not per player basis. 

    If that would ever happen imagine the legal hell after the game servers go down. They would somehow have to reimburse you for the loss of items/currency/characters because suddenly you won them. 

    Second thing is the fact that we expect companies to provide certain level of administration over the games. If characters were legally yours it would make it troublesome to ban them. 

    Downtimes of any sorts? Another problem with actually owning the character and it;s possessions. 

    Re-selling outside of company jurisdiction - again, if you own it in theory you can do anything with it. 

    There is reason why you don't really "buy games" per se, only licence to play them, it won't change, unless someone will completley rework world legal system

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,641Member Uncommon

    I agree with the OP for the most part.

    It's such a huge scam that players are 'sold' virtual items in MMORPGs, but they literally own nothing.

    People need to wake up.

     

    No wonder the devs all love this model so much.... they get to rent a truck load of literally nothing to eager consumers for real money, all the while being defended and promoted by those same consumers in forums. Samll suprise they are all so eager to jump on it.

  • TanonTanon Richmond Hill, ONPosts: 172Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Ezhae

    Never. For a simple reasons. 

     

    First thing is the fact that legal systems vary between countries and even states. As long as the company holds the rights to character all legal stuff is on their grounds, not per player basis. 

    If that would ever happen imagine the legal hell after the game servers go down. They would somehow have to reimburse you for the loss of items/currency/characters because suddenly you won them. 

    Second thing is the fact that we expect companies to provide certain level of administration over the games. If characters were legally yours it would make it troublesome to ban them. 

    Downtimes of any sorts? Another problem with actually owning the character and it;s possessions. 

    Re-selling outside of company jurisdiction - again, if you own it in theory you can do anything with it. 

    There is reason why you don't really "buy games" per se, only licence to play them, it won't change, unless someone will completley rework world legal system

    This pretty much sums it up. Your opinions don't really matter since the legal side is far more pressing.

    /thread

  • JudasaceJudasace New York, NYPosts: 53Member

    Good luck with that. Corporations own the government. They can take what they want, when they want, and when they mess up, it's our job as citizens to bail them out. If the courts and our "representatives" aren't going to hold them accountable for destroying the economy and defrauding people out of billions, I don't think they give a $#!7 about your virtual sword.

  • luciusETRURluciusETRUR Lewisville, TXPosts: 442Member

    Originally posted by Judasace

    Good luck with that. Corporations own the government. They can take what they want, when they want, and when they mess up, it's our job as citizens to bail them out. If the courts and our "representatives" aren't going to hold them accountable for destroying the economy and defrauding people out of billions, I don't think they give a $#!7 about your virtual sword.

    Lobbyists own the government. Most gaming companies don't have those...

    image

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,912Member Uncommon

    I'm sure whatever rights we might have under law are specifically disclaimed in TOS and EULA.

     

    Even domain names are technically "leased".  There is no ownership of the domain, only ownership of the lease to use it.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • alexhpy98721alexhpy98721 bucharestPosts: 250Member

    How about saying "Yes we should own what we buy" and not "ZOMG you can`t do it becouse bla bla"

     

    Bigger things have changed.

     

    Imagine if we all say "Let`s do it!" for a change.... and act , imagine a riot on the forums.... they won`t listen to it and so on, but when we decide to boicot a game(WOW/SWOTOR/GW2) untill they give us the rights we demand.... imagine they lose 30% of their subs in one month.

     

    Hurt their wallet and they will give you what you want. Just get organised.

     

  • C0MAC0MA Houson, TXPosts: 522Member

    30-40% of the votes truly displays why the middle-lower class get taxed heavier than the upper class... they don't want ownership of anything they put their time into, earning.

    "Sometimes people say stuff they don''t mean, but more often then that they don''t say things they do mean"
    image

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,314Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by C0MA

    30-40% of the votes truly displays why the middle-lower class get taxed heavier than the upper class... they don't want ownership of anything they put their time into, earning.

     Thats quite the leap in logic there now isn't it.

    Regardless I don't think we will ever own it.  We just pay for services, or rent the item.  However that doesn't mean we aren't entitled to some rights.

    Venge

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • Raithe-NorRaithe-Nor Moscow, IDPosts: 315Member

    Originally posted by alexhpy98721

    Imagine if we all say "Let`s do it!" for a change.... and act , imagine a riot on the forums.... they won`t listen to it and so on, but when we decide to boicot a game(WOW/SWOTOR/GW2) untill they give us the rights we demand.... imagine they lose 30% of their subs in one month. 

    You need to realize that for some people, it isn't just a "I don't care if we own it," it's a "no way in hell do I want to own this information, and I dislike immensely the fact that anyone thinks that a game's database objects is something they would want to own."

    The ammount of people that would boycott a game because it doesn't provide them ownership in the game pieces is most likely less than or equal to the number of people that would start playing the game again because the boycotters weren't there.

    So feel free to boycott, it would make my decade if you and everyone else that wants to hold stock in game pieces did just that.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    Originally posted by vesavius

    I agree with the OP for the most part.

    It's such a huge scam that players are 'sold' virtual items in MMORPGs, but they literally own nothing.

    People need to wake up.

     

    No wonder the devs all love this model so much.... they get to rent a truck load of literally nothing to eager consumers for real money, all the while being defended and promoted by those same consumers in forums. Samll suprise they are all so eager to jump on it.

    Well...it actually works pretty much the same way when you buy media like a video game, movie, or book.  When you buy a video game from the store for example, you do not "own" the game.  Sure, you may own the box and the disc the game is on, but you do not actually own the game.  Instead, you own a license to the game, which essentially means that you can use it in a limited fashion as indicated by the EULA.  The company retains real ownership of the game.

    So I mean, when you consider that you don't even own the game that you are purchasing this stuff in, it becomes much less of an issue.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,949Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Well...it actually works pretty much the same way when you buy media like a video game, movie, or book.  When you buy a video game from the store for example, you do not "own" the game.  Sure, you may own the box and the disc the game is on, but you do not actually own the game.  Instead, you own a license to the game, which essentially means that you can use it in a limited fashion as indicated by the EULA.  The company retains real ownership of the game.

    So I mean, when you consider that you don't even own the game that you are purchasing this stuff in, it becomes much less of an issue.

    Yeah, but it is a bit more complicated than that. If you own a DVD collection you own the DVDs even if you don't own the right to the movie. If I steal it from you the cops will actually try to help you (hopefully).

    Virtual items are kinda a grey zone. And what if the company closes down the game where you bought stuff for a thousand bucks, should they repay you for that or not? Is it as bad stealing $1000 of virtual stuff as $1000 of real stuff?

    I am not saying one thiing or another here about how the laws should be but there should actually be laws since people uses a lot of real money to buy stuff.

    Or do you guys think we should just consider anyone buying virtual goods idiots and that they deserve to loose the stuff?

  • Turkish4676Turkish4676 San Bernardino, CAPosts: 87Member

    Is it just me or do we not truly understand what physical item we should be compensated for when they no longer become working physical objects? The discs we buy should all start becoming free downloads. I would not mind so much what happens to my virtual stuff or the game for that matter, considering the only money I spend is the usage fee with the monthly sub. In games w/o a monthly sub I am cool with paying for the discs, but yeah, it is unfair if the game masters modify my ability to use said game. I buy the game and as long as I can get that game to run, it should always work. It is when the game servers go down permanently that we should be recompensated for our original purchase. Give me a non-sub monthly game and you owe me nothing as long as the game will always work or let me download free and just charge me the monthly fee. Pick one.

    If my account gets banned, well that truly is a case to case basis. If I get caught cursing out some guy who truly was being that set of words I chose to describe him, then my account should be treated as such, not closed. If I get caught buying, selling, hacking, etc., something that ruins the games mechanics or economy, then yeah get rid of me. I broke the virtual law to its extent, so yeah, I lost those ownership rights. When I buy a game it is mine. If the game manufacturers break it(shut down servers permanently, life ban my IP addy, etc.) I am entitled to compensation.

    Imagine if Michael Jordan came into your house and said he did not like the way his Nike's looked on you so he cut them to pieces, regardless of whether he represents Nike or his own personal opinion, someone owes you some money.

    As far as virtual items, yeah people who spend money on that are not the brightest. It causes me no pain to see people lose those items. Those companies that have turned to the P2Win programs are crap. Those were buffs you paid for and buffs wear off get over it.

  • DrevarDrevar College Station, TXPosts: 157Member Uncommon

    What kind of lawsuits would ensue when they decide to balance an item or class, devaluing it in real cash terms?  Does allowing us to "own" our stuff also obligate them to preserve said stuff's value?

    “If MMORPG players were around when God said, "Let their be light" they'd have called the light gay, and plunged the universe back into darkness by squatting their nutsacks over it.”
    -Luke McKinney, The 7 Biggest Dick Moves in the History of Online Gaming

    "In the end, SWG may have been more potential and promise than fulfilled expectation. But I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
    -Raph Koster

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon

    I'm thinking of something...as simple as buying a book.

     

    you own the book, but you dont own the story or the material contained within. Claiming otherwise is plagiarism at best.

     

    putting aside all the modern concepts, intelectual property has always had an owner. the one who'se intellect created it.

     

    if I buy a book on Snow Wtie do i all of a sudden own parts of Disney?

    image

  • azmundaiazmundai St Louis, MOPosts: 1,417Member

    just stop buying the crap .. srsly. Unless you are playing one of those f2p games that force you to buy things to compete .. it's your own fault .. and even then .. you are playing the wrong game imo. just stop buying that crap already.

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,641Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Originally posted by vesavius

    I agree with the OP for the most part.

    It's such a huge scam that players are 'sold' virtual items in MMORPGs, but they literally own nothing.

    People need to wake up.

     

    No wonder the devs all love this model so much.... they get to rent a truck load of literally nothing to eager consumers for real money, all the while being defended and promoted by those same consumers in forums. Samll suprise they are all so eager to jump on it.

    Well...it actually works pretty much the same way when you buy media like a video game, movie, or book.  When you buy a video game from the store for example, you do not "own" the game.

    Sure, you may own the box and the disc the game is on, but you do not actually own the game.  Instead, you own a license to the game, which essentially means that you can use it in a limited fashion as indicated by the EULA.  The company retains real ownership of the game.

    So I mean, when you consider that you don't even own the game that you are purchasing this stuff in, it becomes much less of an issue.

     

    If I buy a song I own the physical medium and the license (right) to listen to that song from my personal copy whenever I choose, with use limited according the the legal agreement I made upon purchase. This is what I have purchased. No, I don't own the song, the composer does, but I own the rights I have paid for. No one has the right to take my copy away from me once I have paid my monies, and indeed doing so would be considered theft. This is because I do actually own something.

    If I buy a CD from, say, HMV, I do not rent that CD or the rights to listen to that CD... if I bought a CD from them and then they went out of business HMV wouldnt and couldnt demand the CD or the rights back. If they folded tommorow I still would be able to access and play the music I had paid for.

    Now, when you buy a MMORPG you make a very different agreement. You agree with the provider that you own nothing and they own everything. You access their service 100% at their sufference. Everything you buy from their cash shop in fact remains THEIRS. No ownership or rights pass to you- It never becomes yours in any sense, you just get to borrow it for a while. And ofc, as soon as their service folds or they choose to terminate your service for any reason your purchased access to their virtual items goes with it, and there isnt a damn thing you can do about it.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    Originally posted by vesavius

    Originally posted by Creslin321


    Originally posted by vesavius

    I agree with the OP for the most part.

    It's such a huge scam that players are 'sold' virtual items in MMORPGs, but they literally own nothing.

    People need to wake up.

     

    No wonder the devs all love this model so much.... they get to rent a truck load of literally nothing to eager consumers for real money, all the while being defended and promoted by those same consumers in forums. Samll suprise they are all so eager to jump on it.

    Well...it actually works pretty much the same way when you buy media like a video game, movie, or book.  When you buy a video game from the store for example, you do not "own" the game.

    Sure, you may own the box and the disc the game is on, but you do not actually own the game.  Instead, you own a license to the game, which essentially means that you can use it in a limited fashion as indicated by the EULA.  The company retains real ownership of the game.

    So I mean, when you consider that you don't even own the game that you are purchasing this stuff in, it becomes much less of an issue.

     

    If I buy a song I own the physical medium and the license (right) to listen to that song from my personal copy whenever I choose, with use limited according the the legal agreement I made upon purchase. This is what I have purchased. No, I don't own the song, the composer does, but I own the rights I have paid for. No one has the right to take my copy away from me once I have paid my monies, and indeed doing so would be considered theft. This is because I do actually own something.

    If I buy a CD from, say, HMV, I do not rent that CD or the rights to listen to that CD... if I bought a CD from them and then they went out of business HMV wouldnt and couldnt demand the CD or the rights back. If they folded tommorow I still would be able to access and play the music I had paid for.

    Now, when you buy a MMORPG you make a very different agreement. You agree with the provider that you own nothing and they own everything. You access their service 100% at their sufference. Everything you buy from their cash shop in fact remains THEIRS. No ownership or rights pass to you- It never becomes yours in any sense, you just get to borrow it for a while. And ofc, as soon as their service folds or they choose to terminate your service for any reason your purchased access to their virtual items goes with it, and there isnt a damn thing you can do about it.

    What you say is true, but it's also true that most MMORPGs contain a clause in the EULA saying that the service provider may permenantly ban your account for any reason.  So I mean, you may have permanent rights to the client software, but without the ability to log onto the server...it's pretty useless.

    But you know, I get your point.  At least when you buy a license to an MMORPG game you HAVE a EULA that specifies terms of use.  In the case of virtual goods, there is no license agreement and you're basically spending your money on vapor.  Vapor that can be taken away from you and you have no protection at all.  For example, what if the server crashes directly after you buy something for $80 and your character loses it?

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • thinktank001thinktank001 oasisPosts: 2,027Member Uncommon

    Consumers have rights on virtual items that are sold through cash shops.  I'm not sure how it would be enforced over P2P games, since you are purchasing access to the servers and not your characters or items.  

  • ChackzChackz albuquerque, NMPosts: 76Member

    I say yea. Govt. say no.

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Webster, MAPosts: 4,813Member

    I vote yes. There are no laws against it in most countries and there are MMO's out there that already give ownership rights of virtual goods or intellectual property to the players that create or purchase them. 

    If a company like Blizzard wants to allow virtual items to be purchased with real life cash then players should OWN these virtual properties. If you live in a country where your government won't allow you to own virtual goods that you pay for with real life cash ask them why these companies are allowed to sale these items to you for real life cash if you can not own them. 

     

    But like I said, this kind of thing isn't dissallowed in most places as far as I know and there are games that do give ownership to players. 

    Hell games like Second life you can actually exchange your game currency for real currency. 

  • Turkish4676Turkish4676 San Bernardino, CAPosts: 87Member

    As far as the disney book comparison, your logic is close to the mark but way off the issue. No one claimed to own a piece of the parent company, but they do own that book. If they wanted to go out and sell each page for a dollar for toilet paper to people at a camp sight, they could. Say Disney came to your house and set that book on fire, they have no right to do that just because it is their IP. When you purchase something with actual currency, it becomes something you have certain rights to. In the US there is only so much power and abuse of power that is tolerated. In other countries it could be different, but in the US you have the right to take legal action when Mike Eisner comes and burns your DIsney book.

  • leojreimrocleojreimroc Toronto, ONPosts: 371Member

    Originally posted by Loke666

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Well...it actually works pretty much the same way when you buy media like a video game, movie, or book.  When you buy a video game from the store for example, you do not "own" the game.  Sure, you may own the box and the disc the game is on, but you do not actually own the game.  Instead, you own a license to the game, which essentially means that you can use it in a limited fashion as indicated by the EULA.  The company retains real ownership of the game.

    So I mean, when you consider that you don't even own the game that you are purchasing this stuff in, it becomes much less of an issue.

    Yeah, but it is a bit more complicated than that. If you own a DVD collection you own the DVDs even if you don't own the right to the movie. If I steal it from you the cops will actually try to help you (hopefully).

    Virtual items are kinda a grey zone. And what if the company closes down the game where you bought stuff for a thousand bucks, should they repay you for that or not? Is it as bad stealing $1000 of virtual stuff as $1000 of real stuff?

    I am not saying one thiing or another here about how the laws should be but there should actually be laws since people uses a lot of real money to buy stuff.

    Or do you guys think we should just consider anyone buying virtual goods idiots and that they deserve to loose the stuff?

    Two problems with virtual items compared with "real" items:

    First, virtual items don't actually exist.  There's a big difference with buying a DVD, which exists, and buying a virtual hat, which doesn't exist (exist in the actualy physical material sense).

    The other big problem is that these items are tied to other companies servers.  If these go down, there's no way for you to reach these items.  This is completely different with other virtual gear that you never lose, the sims franchise for example.  They sell whole expansions which is basically just more clothing.  In these games, you never lose anything.  In the online world, this is not the case.

    I think the second problem is the big one.  You will never have any laws that will protect you with virtual items.  And I think the reasons are clear.  Companies would have to keep servers up for the rest of time, or refund everyone that actually bought anything.  As soon as games would become unprofitable, the company would have to go bankrupt, because option a is keep being unprofitable until you have to go bankrupt, option b is shut down, refund everyone, and...go bankrupt because you lose everything.

    Playing online games is like going to the movie theater.  You pay for an experience, then eventually, it's over.  You can just buy the regular seat price, or you can buy popcorn and a drink to enhance your experience.  The end result is that the experience eventually ends and you're only left with memories.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,643Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by alexhpy98721

    How about saying "Yes we should own what we buy" and not "ZOMG you can`t do it becouse bla bla"

     

    Your first mistake is thinking that you bought anything. Your second mistake is confusing a service with a product.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Fir3lineFir3line LisbonPosts: 767Member

    So your account gets banned, and you demand the Winged Lion from blizzard, saying you want it.

     

    They send you a string of codes with 4 thousand lines, what do you do with it?

    "I am not a robot. I am a unicorn."

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