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Originally posted by labryinth Ok so this is a question to everyone who started with the now 'oldschool' MMORPGs like EQ and Ultima etc.etc, not WoW or Guild Wars, but just 1990-2003. A lot of people really hate what the MMO market is now, but I was wondering if everyone who played the older MMOs actually felt exactly the same way when WoW and GW and all those types of games came out? Did you all think 'WoW is way too casual, same with GW and EQ2' compared to EQ1 etc in 2004 and whenever GW came out? Or do the oldschool and vanilla WoW, GW etc. players all agree that back in 2004 and downwards was collectively when MMOs were the best? Or do you think only EQ and Ultima Online were the best MMOs? It's hard to explain but basically: was Everquest, DAoC and Ultima Online better than World of Warcraft (Vanilla) and Guild Wars (Vanilla) in your opinion, or do you think WoW and GW were the same games but just improved? Or did you think WoW and GW were in fact better than Everquest and Ultima even though you started with Eq and Ultima? Hopefully you understand what I'm trying to ask.
Everyone started somewhere. For me it was with Ultima Online.
UO at the time was a huge break thru. The concepts that drove the single player games in the UO universe turned into a full blown mmorpg was so much fun. The ability to make a guy with a certain style and maybe 3 weeks later decide to make him a different way just by using the skills you wanted to was alot of fun. The amount of things in the world that could be manipulated was fantastic and added to the depth.
There have been many games that tried to re-invent the feel of the original UO but I have not found anything quite it's equal yet. When I say this it's also looking thru rose colored glasses. There were problems in UO. Pathing, latency, and other things.
EQ was my first real first person style MMORPG and still holds a place in my heart. It was punishing when you died which ramped up as you got to max level. The punishments for death kind of went away and the travel hubs changed the game as well. But originally it was a great game. The class distinctions really made it fun as well.
WoW was something of a bitter pill for me to take at first and always has tasted a little funky. Of course I am talking graphics. The Graphics were a main detractor for me. Game play was good. I liked the size of the world and the theme parkish elements were everywhere and the questing was easy to follow. Maybe a little to easy for my tastes but I got accustomed to it.
I wanted a game similar to WoW but with less cartoony and more realistic graphics and settings with a little less corny-ness. I found that game not to long ago in Rift and have been enjoying that since release.
Guildwars is not even in the same league as UO, EQ, and WoW. It was online yes...but the style of play and progression and game structure are so different I couldn't compare it at all to the others. Now Guildwars 2 is looking to change that and they may just have a winner on their hands with this one. TIme will tell once it's released.
UO and EQ were better games than WoW and Guildwars.
It's hard to explain but basically: was Everquest, DAoC and Ultima Online better than World of Warcraft (Vanilla) and Guild Wars (Vanilla) in your opinion, or do you think WoW and GW were the same games but just improved?
The newer games are better in most practical ways but they're worse in terms of freedom.
Originally posted by Riftsoldier Originally posted by labryinth
Garriot was an old P&P player and more or less invented computer RPGs (single player that is). He was a gamer and made the game for himself, he made the type of game he wanted to play.
The problem is that the copies misses Garriots vision, they want to make a new UO, not to transfer a loved experience from P&P to computers as Garriot wanted.
The copies just don't have any soul like UO had. To truly make a game like UO you need to forget about all other computer games including UO and try to translate the RPG feeling again. That is BTW exactly what CCP is doing with WoDO, I hope they succed.
tupo vanilla wow was better !
Originally posted by tupodawg999 It's hard to explain but basically: was Everquest, DAoC and Ultima Online better than World of Warcraft (Vanilla) and Guild Wars (Vanilla) in your opinion, or do you think WoW and GW were the same games but just improved? The newer games are better in most practical ways but they're worse in terms of freedom.
Better or worse is rather hard to say. In some aspects they were better in others worse and they aimed for different players.
But Wow and GW really wins in one aspect, they are really well coded and proffesional games. Very few other MMOs and CORPGs are like that, it is the real key to their success.
Originally posted by Vorthanion Originally posted by Palebane Originally posted by Ausare old games were fun for 10% of the people...new games are fun for 70%....
Old games were fun for 95% of the people that played them back then. New games are fun for 70% of the people that "play" them, and probably a much lower percentage for those who started back in the day. To be fair though, the number of players who never played the old games when they were in their prime that would enjoy them in thier old state is likely close to zero.
I beg to differ. SOE admitted when development started on EQ2, that EQ1 had gone through over two million subscriptions and yet never retained more than 450,000 at it's peak. That is a huge turnover rate and does not even remotely reflect your 95% guesstimate. All of those old games suffered from this huge turnover problem, it's what prompted games like City of Heros and World of Warcraft in the first place, they had to find out what would actually keep people around and playing and the old forrmula wasn't even remotely cutting it. The embracing of more casual game play didn't happen by accident, it was a calculated change.
No doubt it was calculated. Perhaps it simply has to do with sheer numbers of players or games today, but the turnover is much much greater now, from my experience. In EQ, I played with the same people for years and years. Most of them would log in every day. In modern games, players seem to come and go like the clouds in the sky. The old formula had a lot more to do with socialization. I don't see how that would not help retain players. In modern games, players have very little value so there is really no reason to stick around, in my opinion. To me, the developers' calculation, in regards to the community, was largely quantity over quality.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Have to agree whit the above poster, the people that go in, play, leave rates are far far higher in todays mmo's then in the old games.
but thats kinda logical, back in the days we were the pioneers, we loved our games and sticked whit them , a name was worth far more then the gear you were using. more and more people play, more people means more views and styles resulting in a dynamic market that is still looking for its way. mmo's are a slow bussiness evolving every few years. give it a other 10-20 years and we will see clear defined games for all sorts od sub-group mmo players and a bussiness that finaly found out how to run itself properly.
Honestly, I LOVED the community back then, but hated being forced to group. I remember liking where WoW was going when the original devs were at the helm (before Blizzard got rid of them and started the downward slope the game eventually took). I thought it addressed everything I hated about EQ whille keeping things I liked. The UI was a revolution of course, though we take it for granted now.
Now I look back on my EQ years with fond memories. Put almost 7 (5 years straight, then back for 2) years into that game, and even with the frustrating bits, loved every minute of it. And after 4 years of WoW (total, there were breaks) I can honestly say I don't have the same feeling of nostalgia. Epic quests in EQ were....well....EPIC. I remember getting the singing short sword for my bard. It took me 9 months of doing the various items I needed, waiting for certain spawns, partaking of certain encounters. When I finally got that sword it was one of (probably THE) happiest time I've ever had in an MMO. I worked hard for it, others worked hard for it and it paid off. I don't get that sense of accomplishment anymore from todays games.
Here's hoping TOR comes close, though I doubt it.
I am not really sure where you get the idea that a lot of people hate the MMO market now..i mean, maybe some people hate it but you say it as if NOW they hate it more then they did before. Chances are if you hated the MMO market before you still hate it now, infact, it is probably more likely that you hated it back then and like it now then the former. I played all the oldschool games and what has changed has only been good things. MMORPGs have been made more accessable and enjoyable for more people, which has grown the market..so if you appreciated the concept of MMOs back in the day you should appreciate the fact that they are even more successful now because of subtle changes over the years. Saying lots of people hate it is really based more on what website you go to or who you talk to.
I don't think MMOs have become more casual, they have become more realistic. EQ was a game that mostly appealed to people who could play games like 10 hours a day and even though that seemed great to some people, the reality of it is that everything else is not automatically casual because of it. Sandbox games like Ultima Online gave you a great illusion of content, but in reality did not have much to offer. The players are what really drove that game home. That and the fact that it was the first major MMO release at retail...so it is naturally going to be nostalgic. You always remember your first!
It is really hard for me to directly compare a game like World of Warcraft (Vanilla) to Everquest. I played both games for years at different points in my life. I thought differently and interpreted ideas and concepts in different ways 12 years ago then I do now. I enjoyed both games immensely when I played them.
I feel like WoW was a natural progression over what had been done before and I did feel like it was very similar to Everquest when it came out. As a game progresses though, distinctions become clearer. MMOs last a long time -- seeing what developers do to improve them is part of what the game is as a whole. WoW is a natural progression of MMOs in the same sense that Starcraft 2 is a natural progression of RTS games, or that Modern Warfare is a natural progression of FPS games. All the games share the same core values and fundamentals, but tend to go in different directions. Much like the comparisons you get from a game like WoW to SWTOR / GW 2 now.
The term "casual" has been thrown around like a 2$ hooker in the recent years. The fact of the matter is that gamers, especially PC gamers, are getting older. If you played EQ/UOback then chances are you are ATLEAST in the mid 20s and your life has gotten significantly more complicated. To me, casual means you play literally like a few hours a week. If you log on almost every night for a few hours, thats pretty standard..somewhere inbetween hardcore and casual. Normal I guess? I would consider hardcore someone like myself who does not have much else to do with their time currently and plays a game for 5+ hours a day. People always get casual confused with the term "accessible".
Does AC count for your topic?
WoW is the best MMOG for the cookie-cutter MMOG model of get better items to get better items to get better items to get better items to get better items to get better items to get better items to get... you get the idea. It was/is better than EQ and any other MMOG to have been released or was released with that objective in mind. If your idea of a good MMOG is killing monsters to gain experience and then grouping to take down raid bosses with your buddies on a friday night, WoW is/was the pinnacal. I'm not saying everyone interested in this type of MMOG should only play WoW, perhaps the setting isn't to your liking or you prefer a smaller community, but if I am to be as objective as possible. WoW is the best at this style of MMOG and I don't think there actually is too much room to improve.
Then there is EVE which is more like the UO model and EVE is the best game for that model of games where PvP is the heart of the game and compeition between players not raid bosses is what matters. Unfortunately EVE has too many faults for me to call it the pinnacal of this style of game, I feel this type of game is really what the MMOG community is needing. We don't need another kill monsters to gain experience for 2 months before you reach the level cap only to group together to kill bigger monsters to get better items to get better items to get better items until the next expansion is released introducing new items to kill new monsters to get new items to get items to get items.... We have enough of those games as is.
What the community is missing is a game like UO that realizes UOs faults (the skill system) but combines it with what UO did great (ffa pvp with full loot). EVE has already laid the groundwork for a modernized skill, PvP and economic system. A developer just needs to swoop in and take the faults of EVE (its movement and zoning system) out of the game by bringing it to a fantasy setting but keeping what makes EVE so good (it's risk vs reward, resource based, open PvP, player competition systems). Then we might have the pinnacal of this type of MMOG. Darkfall tried to do it but kept too much of what made UO bad like its macro'ing, skill system and horrible combat system instead of modernizing the game with much improved combat system like in WoW.
Originally posted by Binny45 Honestly, I LOVED the community back then, but hated being forced to group.
That is the difference between a community and a commune.
It's always struck me as more than a little bit bizarre how the people who so desperately need a game that forces strangers to put up with them refer to the people who don't feel the same urge as "anti-social."
Raidoholics are the white elephants of the MMO world. Producers love the idea of zombies who will put up with literally any amount of abuse, as long as it means other people are forced into the same thing. The problem is that if designers cater their game to those freaks, eventually it'll get to the point where normal people won't want to play it anymore.
Originally posted by kopema Originally posted by Binny45 Honestly, I LOVED the community back then, but hated being forced to group.
Sort of like the cookie-cutter spec, raid or quit mentality. I never heard anyone ask "what spells should I have active" in EQ. Never. I can't join a guild these days without different people asking what spec they should use every single day. Tolerance is a virtue. But so is respect. Putting up with an asshole is different than putting up with players who are new or make mistakes. Players are a lot more likely to put up with assholes than the latter these days. Back then it was the opposite, in my experience.
There are a lot of good things from the games of today as well as the games of yesterday. Look at any of the "what is your dream MMO" style threads and you'll see aspects from games throughout the years. I have to agree with the posters that said it wasn't necessarily the games that were better back then but the communities. They were smaller niche communities of mostly likeminded gamers that stuck around through bugs, grinds, steep learning curves and other aspects that many gamers wouldn't stand for today.
What I have seen through dozens of threads here and at other MMO sites (mostly reworded and recycled) just go through a catch 22: mechanics that are good for building a strong community and immersive game aren't good for business and aspects that are good for business make for bland, shallow games.
The biggest thing to me about play DAOC and others ofits time was the fact that the people you played with (community) were computer people and understood computer gaming. starting from WOW:BC and on MMO's turned more casual and attracted people from all age groups and console gamers (as well as people who never played games). Greed got into the eyes of MMO makers and boom we got the Mcdonalds way of making games. I really miss those days. I think thats why I still enjoy VG.
this thread makes me cry and rage because it hits on the sad truth about MMO's and RPG's in general.
I don't think we can ever go back to those days.
I for one feel that something wonderous and special has been lost.
I guess I understand why devs make games that the casual player will enjoy (because they want to make the big bucks), but the "art" and "magic" of creating new worlds and experiences has been lost to the pursuit of profits.
TL;DR = *BAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW*
I started off with eq1 and I actually remember when i first figured out to actually type in dialogue to figure out what to do or get on quests. Great days.
I think the newer MMO's have been stale simply because of the adventure aspect has been taken out. The sense of traveling through new lands and discovering new area's. The danger that comes with all the enemies around you. It was that sense of being alert of my surroundings while on my quest to recover some orc bones in Crushbone for my newbie armor. Looking around making sure the orcs weren't rampaging to the zoneline whilst destroying some fellow wood elves in their path.
It really made eq more social since we traveled around in packs and helped eachother out as a community. Which resulted in alot more friendly people vs. the a.holes we get in todays mmo's and alot more satisfying gameplay.
All the adventure is now missing. Now i can just teleport right next my questing spot drop in without being chased by the mobs, and if he doest chase me ill run 5ft further to make him reset. Then i get my item and teleport right back to my questing hub for turn ins! yay...
There are alot of improvements that the newer mmo's brought such as UI, graphics, and a few other issues. But all that comes with new technology. We are missing the adventure now because the ease that has been brought in. Hopefully we all get another first mmo-like experience.
I started MMOS with UO.It took me over a year of normal play to hit GM (100) in magery I had to 8x8 the last .8 to get it . That really felt like an accomplishment. Animal Taming and Provocation also both took a really long time to GM. I always had something to do in UO and that game had 0 quests. (Crafting alt, house, tame and sell animals, treasure maps, net tossing)
wow looked nice but it was much too easy I didnt feel any sense of accomplishment ever in that game. I almost didnt make it through the first free month. I ended up re-rolling Horde and got in a guild and played it til they announced Burning Crusade. Once I saw what BC Offered I knew it was time to move on.
I Played EQ2 at launch - I didnt make it past the first free month. Didnt like the combat and the crafting was horrible. I tried it again a few years later when they had the extended come back for free special and it was ok but it just didnt knock me over.
I guess IM still waiting for a game with more to do than quest or raid or arena/scenario type pvp. IT HAS to have great crafting. It Has to have housing. It HAS to be FUN!
WOW, was I believe, my 4th MMO. I was playing M59, then EQ and DAOC. I was in the WOW beta and thought it had awesome potential though, contrary to the rose colored glasses of many WOW fans was buggy and not balanced at the end of beta. I jumped in anyway and played WOW for about 21/2- 3 years. I was still playing EQ and DAOC for a good portion of that as well. I actually started UO after an expansion, can't recall the name, so I was a late comer to that one.
I would say my answer of the time would be NO, those games were not better than WOW. Just different. WOW had an advantage which as accessibilty. At the time, it looked great and had better graphics than the other three. DAOC got a face lift at some point which put it on par with WOW in many ways graphically but the art style was built to stand the test of time.
The thing most people forget is that Blizzard was doing the same thing with WOW as Bioware is doing with SWTOR. WOW did not do much if anything brand new at launch but did make it polished and easier to navigate while making sure the story and world was compelling.They enhanced the existing experiance with WOW in many ways. The one thing that stands out for me with WOW in the early days was that I took my time and read through all the quests. I did not rush through the game to level cap.
My fondest old MMO memories are not with WOW though but with EQ. I had a high level bard that would help people do the Keynos run back and forth (for pay and stuff), a treacherous treck to be sure. Some of those trips and some of the frantic flights from dungeons with dozens of monsters on your tail were the best MMO memories I had from the and no MMO since has replaced those. MMOs today do not feel dangerous like old EQ, DAOC, and UO.
To close though, I am not a hater of the themepark MMO. I have enjoyed many and have not burned out on them entirely. I am looking forward to SWTOR, GW2, and The Secret World. I think that, while they might not innovate as much as we would like, they will bring some fun new ideas and gameplay to the genre in the form of enhance story telling.
OP this thread is bout "hey played UO DAoC ect , so i know it better" nothing else . Maybe its a burnout syndrome on your side or youre not capable to adjust to changes . Those games were made out of the same reasons as games are created today....to bait $$ outta your pocket
In those days I would have killed for a MMO that just let you play the stupid game.
In UO you had gangs of PKs literally around every corner. Easily the most exploited and abused multiplayer game ever.
EQ comes along...yay no forced PVP. So they got rid of that and replaced it with forced grouping. You'd wander around the game for an hour or two LFG, dying here and there and then getting frustrated and playing a solo class or a twink.
When WoW hit I laughed when I'd just gotten through years of EverQUEST to find a game that had more quests in the first 10 levels than I'd ever gotten in EQ. All classes could solo to varying degrees...downtime was no more than 30 seconds tops.
No more putzing around through dungeons that were half empty...because of all the "social" players grouping up to defeat bosses in their level range right?? Wrong, if a dungeon was empty in EQ it was because of high level farmers OR high level farmers doing "epic" quests.
Yes the quest, quest, quest, easy, easy easy, formula's been wore out. Yes it's time for something different. It's also time for alot of MMO players get off their butts and start living in the real world. Spending a little time away from the computer helps games feel more fresh and fun to play.
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Originally posted by Chieftan In those days I would have killed for a MMO that just let you play the stupid game. In UO you had gangs of PKs literally around every corner. Easily the most exploited and abused multiplayer game ever.
Originally posted by Chieftan In those days I would have killed for a MMO that just let you play the stupid game. In UO you had gangs of PKs literally around every corner. Easily the most exploited and abused multiplayer game ever.
That's funny, because UO's "gang of PKs" seemed to be how the devs "encouraged" players to band together and to form guilds and watch each other's backs. I think that was one of the best parts of the game, tbh. Plus, it gave you an adrenaline rush like no other (and when you successfully evaded a PK, or managed to hunt one down with a group of people, it was thrilling beyond all else). Sorry to hear you didn't like it, but I for one, loved it.
Omg UO in the days of felucca was the bomb!
Best thing after that was Shadowbane before they screwed that one too.
God I miss the fun I had in those games. All these wow type games just make me sick.
I must admit that pvp in EQ2 is pretty good, but nothing like full loot UO was in the days of the hally whack. Best sound in any game too imo.
Community was better, that is what I think it will come down for most that played games before WoW. Actually WoW's wasn't completely horribly untill expansions were released. All the people with out an attention span and the unsocial were weeded out in the original game when it came to raiding.
Originally posted by MustaphaMond this thread makes me cry and rage because it hits on the sad truth about MMO's and RPG's in general. I don't think we can ever go back to those days. I for one feel that something wonderous and special has been lost. Greed sucks. I guess I understand why devs make games that the casual player will enjoy (because they want to make the big bucks), but the "art" and "magic" of creating new worlds and experiences has been lost to the pursuit of profits. TL;DR = *BAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW*
You are right in the fact that we never can go back, but we can actually go forwards and there are really endless possibilities to actually make even better games if someone just could think outside the box.
Because that was really the thing about the first MMOs, there were no set standard so the early devs actually had to think for themeselves instead of using the same standard mechanics everyone else uses.
I think you also can make a game that is both fun for casuals and hardcore players. Easy to learn but really hard to master.
But we need to get rid of the silly mechanics that say that material stuff is everything worth fighting for in a game, we really need a MMO Marx (Karl or Groucho both works fine). A game should be about so much more than just getting more stuff, just like life (no I am not a commie).
There are some things I've enjoyed about some of the modern themeparks. Unforunately, most of their worlds virtual societies are so shallow, it just doesn't last.
That's why I'm playing MO. For the issues it has, it still lets me enjoy that old style of play again in a new game. Major developers are not even attempting such games anymore.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.