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Full Loot PvP: What's the appeal?
Zolgar
Member Posts: 533
I'm curious as to what makes this appealing to some people.
From my perspective, it sounds like it would be a real pain in the arse. You spend 'X' amount of hours crafting/finding "gear", someone/something kills you, you die, and someone takes all your stuff. Making the time you put into getting your "gear" useless.
Now, I know people say in these types of games to "only use what you can afford to lose." But, what then is the point to get anything better? If there's an "Epic Sword of Uber Doom" or a "Super Ship of Mega Awesomeness", that take days/weeks/months to aqquire, what's the point if you're never going to use it, or risk losing it if you do?
All that said, I could be looking at this all wrong and am just missing the point. But from where I'm standing, it seems like a huge time waster.
Thoughts?
-Z
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Comments
The only point I see to this is to help create immersion and the sense of danger, not found in your usual MMO.
But no, I don't like it.
Games are shallow without it, you need a sense of danger in the world or its just boring to hell.
True. But on the other side of the coin, there is frustration, and that has no place in a game meant to be fun.
Some loss, to a degree, I can understand. But ressurecting naked, after loosing your armour and weapon (and being an RPG, I can only understand using the best you got) is a tremendous sense of loss.
And if you don't use a particular set of armour and weapon for the fear of loosing it.. well, this is just plain bad game design philosophy (at least for me).
Full loot appeals to those who enjoy gambling and the cat 'n' mouse game that is inevitably involved with it. Without it, they don't get their rush from PvP.
It feels like a waste of time for those who don't get the gambler's rush - like you and me.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
There's a reason nobody does full-loot PvP anymore, and why games that are sometimes said to have it really don't, or mitigate it significantly. It sounds very appealing: you're a wolf, hunting sheep in the night for their loot and their tears. Trouble is, most of those people turn out to be sheep. Nobody wants to be a sheep, and to be a wolf, you need to be ultra-hardcore, which most people aren't willing or able to do.
People remember the golden age of Ultima Online back when it had full-loot FFA PvP. Back then, though, the general consensus was that it made the game unplayable for most, which was a big part of the reason people flocked to EverQuest instead (3d being the other part.)
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The frustration come when you have no chance to retaliate, and when there is constant pking, this is for the pvp. Full loot need to be supported by the crafting system ala UO imo.
But they could probably could come with new ways to create a sense of danger in gaming world. I don't know Rift make something good in that domain, roaming mobs and mob factions. They probably can put some random spawn or have some long range agro mobs too. I don't think dev team ever put a lot of thought in this "dangerous world" aspect tbh.
It's the thrill of it, always being on your toes, it drives you to be as good as possible because the rewards could be huge and the penalty could be even worse.
Generic MMOs, death is just like "oh know I have to spend 1/1000th of my coinage on a repair", "oh bummer I have to go for a 30 second walk back to my corpse". Dying means nothing and is just a stupid part of the game in these games, I honestly get bored to tears with this style of game, but clearly you don't and I won't hate on you for that, each to his own! Neither type is better than another, they just cater to completely different audiences which is totally cool.
I actually don't like either.
I would prefer something in the middle. Say you die, and only drop what's in your inventory, but keep what is equipped. But then you'd have people who wear the best, and carry nothing. I'm obviously not the one best suited for coming up with a "middle ground" obviously, but I wish some developer would eventually.
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In some games, on "hardcore" PvP rules server you have a chance to drop an item from your equipment and you'll always drop an item from your inventory. Of course the game where they had this was f2p and of course there was a rather expensive cash shop item to prevent dropping your stuff upon death.
In the days of MUDs you'd easily lose a level and a half worth of experience (if not all) and all your stuff upon dying, so hardcore PvP is very relative these days and there aren't all that many takers.
Waiting for Guild Wars 2, and maybe SWTOR until that time...
I find that when there is a real threat of losing hard-earned things, quite different PvP environment can emerge.
EVE does this very well, but a typical MMORPG seldom give tools to actually protect oneself or create a system where it is works. People, on the other hand, cry for fairness and getting gangbanged is far from it. War is seldom fair.
My assumption, and it is just an assumption, is that great many of those people who really enjoy full-loot PvP (discounting EVE here because the system works differently) are actually sosiopaths or psychopaths. Afterall, we know that 3-5% of men and 1% of women fit that category. These are people who often have no conscience nor can they feel empathy, but can feel pleasure and other emotions.
No doubt there are many other reasons to enjoy full loot PvP.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
As mentioned, full loot PVP adds a sense of danger to the game, making it very important to avoid losing a fight and limits PVP to instances where you really think you have a chance to win. (the concept of the "fair fight" goes right out the window)
Now, the problem is, most PVP in MMO's is heavily stacked in favor of the attacker, and there is frequently no way for the "prey" to avoid losing their gear, hence it loses its appeal.
I think EVE does a great job providing a full loot PVP environment with mitigants that allow players to manage their level of risk. Couple that with loot that in general is readily replaceable in most cases and it's pretty enjoyable, even for a carebear like myself.
Contrast that with a world like DFO where there really aren't many ways to mitigate loss (outside of staying with clanmates) and that sort of loot system ends up being a lot less appealing.
Personally, my favorite loot system was in Shadowbane, your equipped gear was safe, letting you use the best that you had, but anything in your backpack (including gold I think) was fair game to be dropped upon death. It really seemed like the right balance of risk vs reward and I wish another MMO would bring it back.
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SIMPLE: Risk vs Reward = More excitement
So all early mmos like UO was for psychopats? HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
And if you didnt hear
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Reason full loot was removed. Devs added 0.01% drop loot. To keep dumbasses subbed. And if they got killed with that "hard earned" loot that bot could do that also. they whined and quited game.
Look uo and eve. Both you lose what you had. When you die. Gear is easy to make, crafting is profitable. But 0.01% slot machine guys hate that.
I just hope you're not basing your OP soley on something like DFO or MO. Back in UO there was a truly diverse community, where both reds and normals lived in the same world, PK's were hunted down and dealt with, this doesn't really happen in DFO or those games because all who play are basically reds, who prey on the weak.
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Oh, I agree. Risk always adds a good deal of flavor to a game. That said, what happens when you lose all your "rewards" because of the risk? It just sounds like a horrible experience to lose stuff you've spent days/weeks/months getting, and having to do it over again. Especially when you lose to a more epxerienced/powerful/better geared player.
Like I said, there's got to be some sort of middle ground. Apparently EVE does it well from what others have said.
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As above, it needs to be implemented correctly. It does need to be implemented in some games because:
Actions => Consequences is very important part of eg sandbox virtual world. Cooperation vs competition, allies & enemies: 2-sides to the same coin.
There just needs to be gradatations of zones of law & order -> frontier -> lawless or eg EvE's implementation in space security status (sec) etc. Centralized authority in a game can marshal player behavior there and oc at the extremes you have anarchy where it's a wolf eat wolf world. Thus the full spectrum of experiences are available. As above, in favor of full loot-pvp but with the correct implementation. Ultimately if the design is right, it all hinges on the player community to find it's way.
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Haven't played it, but yeah, that sounds like a good system to me. Maybe combined with some way of NOT being able to deposit everything in the town stash.
I would definetly play a game that has some risk, but not full-loot.
Why do people watch scary movies. Most people would say that there is no fun in being scared. But a lot o people like being scared.
Full Loot PVP is like a scary movie - you are scared most of the time. It's a special feeling and people like that.
If you don't like scary movies, if you don't like to be scared then it's very difficult for you to understand why some people enjoy it.
FFA would be great, in the right game.
In the current bent of themepark games based on loot grinds .. it just can't exist properly.
In a game where weapons and armor in particular do not make you more powerful, but are rather tools you use, our outfits you wear .. it would make a lot more sense.
At which point you have other things, gold, gems .. other things you are gathering which you can lose. Losing them doesn't mean the end of the world, but they are important enough that you dont casually carry them around with you like you do in themeparks and 88 slots of inventory full of boulders.
If you think about gaming as reflecting real life more than it does now (in most games), you can better see how FFA could work. You dont have 88 slots, and neither does the guy that killed you. He can't loot your whole inventory, and the inventory of the next guy and the next guy and the next guy he kills. He could loot it and move it and drop it .. but that becomes extra work for him which he would only do if he particularly doesn't like you. As such you'd potentially be able to reclaim a fair amount of your crap from random drive bys. Chances are he would only loot something which would actually benefit him in some way in most cases.
There are also mechanics that can be perceived from other games. Vanguard for example which wasn't FFA, but you left a corpse which you had to go get your loot from .. so somewhat similar .. you could reclaim your gear from the rez point for a cost. So anything the guy doesn't loot you can potentially "buy" back .. maybe even if he "moves" it .. within a certain time.
An FFA game also needs to have adequate risk to the "ganker" to be successful.
When I think about what would make a successful FFA PVP game .. the first thing I actually think about is the combat mechanics. I think a game like this could be really successful if it took the current 6 second combat model and extended it to an average of 60 seconds, or more while giving every class a lot of escape abilities. So if you dont want to fight, you run, and in most cases you live.
idk .. food for thought. havent played an ffa game in years.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
If you mean you love to be on the losing end of the fight most of the time, just to experience the thrill, I applaud your faith. I doubt many such players are around.
It all depends on how important gear is. If you can get back your gear in an hour, who cares if you loot me. If it takes a year and very good loot drop luck to get a piece, very few would enjoy being looted. On the other hand, if gear comes so easy, who bother loot those you fight against? Just to grief them?
Most of those championing full loot pvp are griefers. They find ways to gain an advantage over new comers and grief these random people for online ego brooding.
True supporters of "full=loot" pvp are FPS games. There is little inherited advantage between vets and newcomers, apart from knowledge of the game, the map and so on. Even true newbies have the possibility of head shotting the best vet, hard luck may it be. The player characters are reset after every game, like a major server wipe.
In MMOs, even among the self labelled hard core full loot pvpers, any hint of server wipe will be greet with 10000 reasons against. Simply because these hard cores are there to grief newbies and not there to fight for the sake of enjoying a fight. I just popped into DF forum to see for myself that those so called hard cores are using customer loyalty, recognition, hours of effort and whatever fancy labels as lame excuse to fight against possible server wipe. I do not bother check the official forums.
I agree with Oddzor. Although, I have simmered my opinion down some over time. I realize ultimately, that the only thing I am loosing in a game is time. In Darkfall or EVE, where I have lots of gold/isk, it really takes me a few minutes to requip myself and get back into the battle and I will get the supplies back easily. In Warhammer, it takes a few minutes to run back to the battle. Its just a difference of a few minutes. I probably get the biggest rush from dying in Fallen Earth, because it takes the longest to run back to where I was and get my mount sometimes 10 minutes. It also costs me more realtively in repairs.
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There are other ways to create a sense of danger and excitement in an MMO other than having to do full loot PvP.
Four things.
1. A reason to pvp, taking someones loot if u kill them is a big incentive to keep doing it.
2. Risk, A game with full loot is much more dangerous and for most people that danger adds to the immersion of the game.
3. Gear loss makes crafting worthwhile, if gear is constantly breaking and being stolen then crafters have too keep making shit.
4. Skill level, in a full loot game you need to be aware of your surroundings, take your character advancement much more seriously and make strong social ties in game just to survive. This means the majority of the players arent terrible. and its nice to play with good players for a change.
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The point of PvP looting is that it adds some actual risk and excitement to PvP. It's also pretty funny when people who play "cartoon" PvP (I.E. bounce back good as new with not a hair out of place, as in WoW, etc) try this kind of PvP. Most of the big, rough, tough PvP'ers start crying and whining and go back to carebear PvP where they're happier.
It has some advantages that I enjoy. Consider the following:
(1) It diverts the inevtiable accumulation of power. Without item loss, characters just get ever more powerful, and there's nothing anyone else can do about it. New players can't catch up, or if they do manage to catch up, they can never hope to exceed older characters.
(2) It means that not everyone uses the best stuff they have all the time. When you're going into a high risk situation, you have to make a decision: bring the Epic Purplez, or just the cheap stuff. You also have to consider the balance between bring your good stuff to give yourself a better chance of winning, versus the possibility that you'll be giving your enemies a chance to use it against you later. This stops things being too predictable, and gives players real decisions to make.
(3) Item loss and item destruction mean that the game designers aren't forced to make the top tier items incredibly rare in order to stop everyone having the best stuff. As long as there is some turnover, they can up the spawn rate a little, and give more people a better chance of experiencing the ownership of the top stuff, even if only temporarily.
(4) The game focus is shifted away from progression-by-accumulation to progression-through-achievement. In otherwords, people care about what they do more, and they care about what they do it with less. And I think that's a good thing. Promote the player's experience as a story, not as an item grinding shopping expedition. When you know that your ownership of any given item is temporary, you are less attached to the item. When you can never lose items, what do you do when you have the full set of top tier stuff? Declare victory and quit?
(5) It promotes PvP (which I like), it gives a reward for winning and a penalty for losing, both at rates which are determined by the players themselves. Go out and have some fun fights using market trash or set forth to fight a significant battle in your best bling. The choice is yours. It also means that the PvP has some real "meaning" - there are permanent, unalterable consequences to winning or losing a fight. This does get the old blood pumping a little!
(6) It just feels a little more realistic to me. It adds to my immersion.
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