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Star Wars: The Old Republic: 'Welfare Epics'

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  • MaelkorMaelkor Friendswood, TXPosts: 465Member Uncommon

    I find it fascinating to watch all of the so called "working" people who dont have time to play a game then complain that they arent given everything someone else gets by spending 20 or 30 hours a week in a game raiding and dungeon crawling to attain.

    The vast majority of the complaints come from people who do not like the raiding concept yet want all of the rewards that come with raiding. My big question remains...if you dont like to raid and you dont care about "end game" content which usually revolves around raiding and gear grinding then why are you worried about the gear you have? Do you really need the "best" gear if you are not interested in the content the gear is designed for?

    The only exception to this is when pvp is involved in which case there should always be two paths to gear pve and pvp with equal amounts of difficulty and perhaps different sets of stats that affect each playstyle in unique ways.

    The other question remains: What is so epic about an item that everyone in the game has? Is there any real difference between a normal mundane sword and a +50 flaming sword of doom if they are both extremely common in respective games? I mean when you have a sword that hits for 500 points of damage per swing all the devs do is make creatures with 20k hp instead of a sword that does 10 points of damage and is used to kill a mob with 400 hp.

  • azmundaiazmundai St Louis, MOPosts: 1,417Member


    Originally posted by Lonestryder
    It is sad to think that so many players think that raiding and working an encounter with a guild or group of close friends could ever be a waste of time, regardless of the individual, shiny loot.
     
    Such is the paradigm of today's MMO gaming experience. It is all individual-centric.

    They want raids to be just like LFD heroics, and all the devs want is their money .. because there are more of them than there are people with social aptitude .. apparently.

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  • DarthPigletDarthPiglet New York, NYPosts: 5Member

    Originally posted by moosecatlol

    The flaw with this system is that say you have a crappy player who did horrible in the raid, he has full potential to receive the best drops from a raid or raid boss. Skill and participation need to be rewarded accordingly


    Which is where you and the other players come in. If the person isn't contributing enough due to sheer laziness or not giving a damn, are you going to take them along on the next Operation? Probably not. Talk to the person to let them know where things stand, and respond accordingly to whether or not they start carrying their weight. The only way that they can get their reward is if you accept to take them along.

    The problem with rewarding players based on certain statistics is you will have balancing issues, some games a support class can easily out "score" other members just because of how much healing, buffing, and debuffing is rewarded in said game. Other times being a support class is the most abyssmal thing, because healing will yield no influence to your "score".

    Yep, that's my main concern if the loot is based on contribution. There are so many variables that could come into play that it's bound to make people feel cheated at one point or another.

  • TokyojoeTokyojoe Aurora, MOPosts: 49Member

    For many years to come the people will gather around the roaring fire in the center of the camp and tell the story of the time few people whined about this,and how the Trolls were left weak and helpless. Ammmmakahn! Tobadanna!

    I may know the least here,but I am the loudest about what I do know.

  • Binny45Binny45 St John''s, NFPosts: 478Member Uncommon

    Why would people complain about this?  Believe me, there was nothing more I hated than having to re-run Hate, Fear, ToV, Vex Thal, etc, etc, to gear people up only to not receive a piece of loot for months on end.

    If this is what you WANT in a game, I suggest you hire a dominatrix, you'll get greater satisfacton paying someone to beat the shit out of you rather than paying someone to deny you loot.

    image

  • DarthPigletDarthPiglet New York, NYPosts: 5Member

    I doubt any dominatrix for $15/month is going to be a quality product.

    That may be my ignorance talking. I'll happily sit corrected if anyone has any real experience to share on the subject.

  • badgerAlumbadgerAlum Madison, WIPosts: 27Member

    Originally posted by darlok6666

    Originally posted by ImNotAGaymer

    This is great news!  Anyone who complains about this or thinks it an awful idea seriously needs behavioral counseling-or something.  Why would you complain about everyone getting their share for their time? Kudos Bioware

    ...

    Anyways the vast majority who are preeching how this is the greatest thing since sliced bread have already showed that they wanted quick gear ups.  Should you get the lewt on your first month of raiding compared to the seasoned raiders?  Hell no you shouldn't.  I personally never had a problem and have been in half a dozen different raiding guilds and seen need before greed, DKP, wishlist, and GP/EP practices.  It's really not a big deal as everyone is making it out to be.  People are expecting to get every piece of gear they want withing a month or two of raiding, thats ridiculous and with this system I'd be betting that'll be the case. 

    I would say a majority of folks would rather not run the same instance over and over for months on end just to get a single piece of gear so that you can do it all over again.  This is great for the developers as it extends the life of their product, but it's absolute crap for the player unless you enjoy mindless grinding.  I guess some people have been fooled into thinking that running raids ad nauseum until you can do them blindfolded is supposed to be "fun".  

  • StormNetStormNet Kensington, CTPosts: 27Member

    The grind of raiding is exactly why I don't do it and eventually leave the game out of boredom...

    The fact that if I take the time out of my schedule to commit 2-3 hours for a raid and actually get something for my troubles... That's a no brainer...

    I for one appreciate the loot system that Bioware has put into place...

  • DerrosDerros Posts: 1,077Member Uncommon

    I fail to see how it could be considered 'welfare epics'.  You still beat the encounter, its just adding a 2nd RNG that applies to each individual (thats not even guarenteed items anyway) on top of the one that is applied to the group as a whole (boss drops)

  • azmundaiazmundai St Louis, MOPosts: 1,417Member


    Originally posted by badgerAlum

    Originally posted by darlok6666

    Originally posted by ImNotAGaymer

    This is great news!  Anyone who complains about this or thinks it an awful idea seriously needs behavioral counseling-or something.  Why would you complain about everyone getting their share for their time? Kudos Bioware
    ...
    Anyways the vast majority who are preeching how this is the greatest thing since sliced bread have already showed that they wanted quick gear ups.  Should you get the lewt on your first month of raiding compared to the seasoned raiders?  Hell no you shouldn't.  I personally never had a problem and have been in half a dozen different raiding guilds and seen need before greed, DKP, wishlist, and GP/EP practices.  It's really not a big deal as everyone is making it out to be.  People are expecting to get every piece of gear they want withing a month or two of raiding, thats ridiculous and with this system I'd be betting that'll be the case. 


    I would say a majority of folks would rather not run the same instance over and over for months on end just to get a single piece of gear so that you can do it all over again.  This is great for the developers as it extends the life of their product, but it's absolute crap for the player unless you enjoy mindless grinding.  I guess some people have been fooled into thinking that running raids ad nauseum until you can do them blindfolded is supposed to be "fun".  

    If you think you are going to have to run the dungeons less .. you need to re-read .. or re-think what is happening here. It's just an RNG. It's not like Bioware is 500% faster at creating content. The reason you are forced to grind content is because it takes time to develop. That isn't changing. You will just have a chance to get something in your loot sack. You are not going to walk through an instance and collect a full tier of gear in one week .. and most likely not in any less time than in any other game. If they did that, they'd have 1/2 their subs drop in about a month.

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  • badgerAlumbadgerAlum Madison, WIPosts: 27Member

    Originally posted by azmundai

     




    Originally posted by badgerAlum





    Originally posted by darlok6666






    Originally posted by ImNotAGaymer



    This is great news!  Anyone who complains about this or thinks it an awful idea seriously needs behavioral counseling-or something.  Why would you complain about everyone getting their share for their time? Kudos Bioware






    ...

    Anyways the vast majority who are preeching how this is the greatest thing since sliced bread have already showed that they wanted quick gear ups.  Should you get the lewt on your first month of raiding compared to the seasoned raiders?  Hell no you shouldn't.  I personally never had a problem and have been in half a dozen different raiding guilds and seen need before greed, DKP, wishlist, and GP/EP practices.  It's really not a big deal as everyone is making it out to be.  People are expecting to get every piece of gear they want withing a month or two of raiding, thats ridiculous and with this system I'd be betting that'll be the case. 






    I would say a majority of folks would rather not run the same instance over and over for months on end just to get a single piece of gear so that you can do it all over again.  This is great for the developers as it extends the life of their product, but it's absolute crap for the player unless you enjoy mindless grinding.  I guess some people have been fooled into thinking that running raids ad nauseum until you can do them blindfolded is supposed to be "fun".  



     

    If you think you are going to have to run the dungeons less .. you need to re-read .. or re-think what is happening here. It's just an RNG. It's not like Bioware is 500% faster at creating content. The reason you are forced to grind content is because it takes time to develop. That isn't changing. You will just have a chance to get something in your loot sack. You are not going to walk through an instance and collect a full tier of gear in one week .. and most likely not in any less time than in any other game. If they did that, they'd have 1/2 their subs drop in about a month.

    Of course I realize that the grind is for the developers, as I said in my post if you had read it.  I was responding to the other's defense of the endless grind and their seperation of "seasoned raiders" and the rest of us peasants who actually like to have fun playing a game.

  • knapuknapu GifhornPosts: 131Member

    Originally posted by Khaine007



    Loot containers, in this gamer's opinion, are a great idea.  I don't know why it hasn't been done, but cheers to Bioware for bringing this idea into reality.  I've been playing MMO's for the past 14 or so years, pretty much since they started, and raiding in every one that I can.  I can't tell you how many times I've done raids, some of them easier, some of them hours of wipe fests, and gotten nothing.  In AoC a few years back, I went through a 3 month stretch of raiding both T1 and T2 raids, so 4 raid instances a week, and got 0 items.  That's disheartening.



    DKP is one way to do it, but it is flawed, do to human greed.  There are many ways to do loot, and sure, you could even be the next to get loot in your guild from raids, but if said loot never drops for your class, you are never going to get it.  Welfare epics was coined back in WoW Classic, when PvP epics came out, while most were raiding the hard as hell at the time, Molten Core and Onyxia.  What these Loot Containers are, are simply a way to reward players for actively playing the game and experiencing what it has to offer.  They are still putting forth the effort to raid and down bosses, so they should be rewarded.



    And that's my 2 cents on the idea.


     

    Sorry man Warhammer was first , warhammer has one of the best loot systems and pvp a game with big possibilitys and yet a failure :/..

    BTW

    On TOR pvp are working poople from warhammer so i know that its gonna be awsome

    I am the punishment of God...
    If you had not committed great sins,
    God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you
    — Genghis Khan

  • ariestearieste toronto, ONPosts: 3,308Member Common

    As it's been discussed endless after the previous article on the topic, I think this is a horrible idea.  It's a good idea for pick-up raids and distribution of tokens, but otherwise it just takes away player ability to decide what to do with the rewards they've earned.

     

    50 people do a raid and one of them gets a piece of good loot at random, while everyone else gets a "thanks for trying" token.    After 50 raids, you get someone with 10 pairs of pants that they sell to vendor for nothing and other people that have gotten nothing but tokens good for inferior gear that they don't really want.

     

    At best, this system for distributing loot should be optional.  All games out there have the option to have the good drops randomly assigned to players.  Virtually no one uses this option, but it's still there as an option.  

     

    It's great that everyone gets a token.  That's been tested and tried in other games, but for the few actually valuable items to be assigned at random is plain stupid and will result in nothing but endless and thankless grind the same way it does in the few games that currently use that system - just ask all the people that have spent the last 6 months trying to get a chestpiece from an EQ2 public quest - sure, they've all gotten about 60 pairs of pants and lots of tokens, but still no actual BP drop.  

    Still, if people want their loot to be given out randomly, I fully support them having that option, but for those of us capable of making decisions, I really hope they add other looting methods present in other games (i.e. NBG, Leader-Assigned, etc.)

     

    I understand people wanting "something for everyone", but i think some of you aren't quite understanding what this system truly means.  You're hoping that after a 20-player raid, instead of one "uber lightsaber of uberness" dropping, you'll now get 20 lightsabers - one for each person.  This is not the case.  You still get one or two lightsabers, only now you have no say whatsoever in who gets it, there is no "reason" for it, just a random person is picked.  Everyone else gets a token that's good for likely 1/50th of a (probably inferior) lightsaber.    

     

    If it WAS the case of 20 people each getting the same awesome reward then it would be fantastic, but people, wake up - that's not what you're being sold here.

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
    Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
    Currently Playing: EQ2, Firefall

  • Z3R01Z3R01 NYC, NYPosts: 2,426Member

    Pure genius.

    Eliminating the crap rolling system mmos have been known for?

    pure win

    Playing:

    Waiting on:

  • KendaneKendane Las Cruces, NMPosts: 225Member

    Originally posted by Derros

    I fail to see how it could be considered 'welfare epics'.  You still beat the encounter, its just adding a 2nd RNG that applies to each individual (thats not even guarenteed items anyway) on top of the one that is applied to the group as a whole (boss drops)

     I'm starting to think it's people who want to stand out by having the best gear of all the land.  I've seen some claim it will let everyone gear up really fast and thus the game will die as everyone leaves the second they get all the gear.  That still seems flawed due to the fact that you don't always get the class set piece or best gear every time you crack open that bag.  Heck it could be rare, and the bag just gives you something that most people go meh and vender away.  I think some just want to see only 5% of the server with such and such gear, or lower, with only guild leaders/officers and for the rare example of a guild, the more dedicated raiders ever have a chance at this gear.  Maybe some honestly see the loot bags being a risk to the game, but I think others are using the fear of people quitting the game to keep particular armor graphics exclusive to them.

  • ariestearieste toronto, ONPosts: 3,308Member Common

    Here is SWTOR system:

     

    20 people run a factory.  Factory makes $10k a month.

     

    Normal way:   depending on organizational structure, the 20 people decide how to share the 10k.

    SWTOR way:  2 people at random get $5k each, 18 people get food stamps.  

     

    The 2nd way, the factory got 10K + free food stamps and EVERYONE got something.  It's better, right? 

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
    Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
    Currently Playing: EQ2, Firefall

  • DraegothDraegoth Angus, ONPosts: 15Member

    This is a FANTASTIC idea. Everyone should be rewarded for their TIME and effort. I think this will encourage even non - raiders (such as myself) to sign up and participate in raids.

    Good job Bio-ware, I love you guys/gals.

  • PalebanePalebane Tucson, AZPosts: 3,225Member

     






    Originally posted by Leoghan





    Originally posted by Palebane






    Originally posted by Leoghan



    The thing I find most insteresting in this debate is all this talk about how it takes away from the feeling of "earning" sometihng. See here is the thing, I get paid a salary, and all of the people who do the same job as me get paid roughly the same, it doesn't take anything away from my feeling of having earned my money to know that my friends A or M got paid the same amount to do the same thing I did. 





     Well, this is one of the big reasons communism doesn't work. Many people do feel they should get rewarded for the amount of work they do. If everyone got paid the same, a whole lot of people would just slack off because, "hey, I'm getting paid the same either way." You've never worked harder than you were expected to in order to get a promotion?





    You did read what I wrote right? Paid the same for the same amount of work. If we run raid X together why should you get reward Y and I get reward Y+? 



    No, you said the same job, not the same amount of work. There is a big difference.

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • NazgolNazgol Dickson, TNPosts: 864Member

    Originally posted by arieste

    Here is SWTOR system:

     

    20 people run a factory.  Factory makes $10k a month.

     

    Normal way:   depending on organizational structure, the 20 people decide how to share the 10k.

    SWTOR way:  2 people at random get $5k each, 18 people get food stamps.  

     

    The 2nd way, the factory got 10K + free food stamps and EVERYONE got something.  It's better, right? 

     When do factories give out foodstamps?

    In Bioware we trust!

  • FourplayFourplay Dallas, TXPosts: 172Member Uncommon
    Bioware can easily avoid the notion of everyone being geared the same. Design most of their raids with this loot system. But also offer a few elite dungeons. By elite dungeons, I mean their most pull your hair out difficult raids, crappy drop rates, lockout timers, timed dungoens, etc, etc. These elite dungoens would retain that feeling of rarity. Where when you see x guy sporting x gear. You know that guy is a dedicated, badass or in a badass guild who spent countless hours in pursuit of their gear sets.
  • PalebanePalebane Tucson, AZPosts: 3,225Member

    Originally posted by Fourplay

    Bioware can easily avoid the notion of everyone being geared the same. Design most of their raids with this loot system. But also offer a few elite dungeons. By elite dungeons, I mean their most pull your hair out difficult raids, crappy drop rates, lockout timers, timed dungoens, etc, etc. These elite dungoens would retain that feeling of rarity. Where when you see x guy sporting x gear. You know that guy is a dedicated, badass or in a badass guild who spent countless hours in pursuit of their gear sets.

    Wouldn't that just start the cycle all over again? The entire topic is about people who can't stand to be inferior.

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • KendaneKendane Las Cruces, NMPosts: 225Member

    Originally posted by arieste

    Here is SWTOR system:

     

    20 people run a factory.  Factory makes $10k a month.

     

    Normal way:   depending on organizational structure, the 20 people decide how to share the 10k.

    SWTOR way:  2 people at random get $5k each, 18 people get food stamps.  

     

    The 2nd way, the factory got 10K + free food stamps and EVERYONE got something.  It's better, right? 

     And in your prefered method 2 people get 5k and everyone else gets nothing.

  • FourplayFourplay Dallas, TXPosts: 172Member Uncommon
    It's a neverending rpg. Everyone is trying to become superior only to become inferior again when a new avenue opens up. I thought this thread was about removing the grind or randomness. Well, this loot system does that to a good extent. I think this a good move by Bioware. However, I think there should still be some rarity to an extent. An overall goal for people who really wanna dig in and strive to be snowflake. Without some rarity between crafts, character growth, etc. What is the point of having paths of growth. Again, I stress I am all for this, really, really, good idea by Bioware. Just sharing my point of view.
  • Matticus75Matticus75 Posts: 396Member Uncommon

    " but more due to the fact that (and I say this with love) you guys (TOR fans) some of you guys will cry bloody murder over just about anything"

     

     Thats evey forum everywhere

     

    One guy in another post asked, if Collector Editions and pre orders were a business ploy to guage the subscriber base and what the expectations are for sales, And recall, he was "Asking IF" that was the case, he was called a paranoid moron and was the root evil of america in a round about way.......lmao wtf

  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,121Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by fionanshrek

    Originally posted by Vorthanion

    What I want to know is if raiding is going to be the only venue for end game gear?  If it is, I also want to know why a casual game is going the raid or die route for end game, won't that piss off the casual gamers, who will once again be snubbed by developers like they did in that "Other" game?

     I read somewhere there would be endagme planets that worked much like a single player raid instance I think it was on this site but was posted by someone who follows the game alot closer than I do.

     Yes, I know, but they haven't mentioned if you can attain end game gear going that route, for both soloers and small groups.  They have mentioned several times that you will by raiding, but not by any other play style.

    image
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