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TOR is NGE2 for SWG. and Titan is WOW2 for Lucas Arts

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  • wrekognizewrekognize Member UncommonPosts: 388

    Originally posted by RajCaj

    Originally posted by wrekognize

    LA is giving all SWG players the middle finger and saying, play TOR if you want a Star Wars MMO. In turn, we are losing one of the last standing sandbox games. And yes SWG is still a sandbox game as it is now.  Much more so than 98% of the games out there.  There is no other reason why LA is shutting down SWG than to say, play TOR or else.  The sub numbers of SWG were far greater than many other MMOs i've tried.  Three highly active servers, a handful of medium servers and the rest low.  and Lucas Arts will get theirs. Quote me on this.  Blizzard will come out with a polished sandbox game that will set a new standard.  The project is called Titan (google it).  And Titan will do to TOR what WOW did to SWG.  In the end, Blizzard will have owned Lucas Arts twice.  First by using a themepark game (WOW) to destroy the sandbox (SWG), then by using a sandbox game (Titan) to destroy the themepark (TOR).  At least I will have a freaking game to play this time around.  TOR could have been innovative and made a stand in the MMO industry.  Instead, they are taking the easy "safe" route.  It will be RTS games and Chess for me in this day and age of MMOs.  Enjoy your storybook grind in the meantime..

     I hate to break it to ya man, but everything I've seen so far (including an article on MMORPG.com) is that Titan will be an even "more" casual MMO than WOW is...and also rummored to be a MMOFPS.

    And while we are on polished sandboxes......the only game in town thats trying this out (which seemed impossible due to such a high risk involved) is ArcheAge.  It's the only AAA sandbox game thats going to have been released in the last 5-6 years.  Before this, all convential wisdom has said that the only way we get a decent sandbox game is if the developers figure out a MUCH cheaper way to develop & produce the game.....given the limited revenue opprotunity as sandbox MMORPGs makeup a small piece of the MMO pie.

     

    But if you have any info on Titan being a sandbox game, I'd be very excited at this news, and wouldn't mind a link :)

    image Mike Morhaime's Quote:


    Without giving away any details, we have some of our most experienced MMO developers, people who spent years working on the World of WarCraft team, working on this project, we're really trying to leverage all the lessons we learned through the years. Some of which we were able to address in World of WarCraft and others that maybe because of the design decisions we've made, you just can't address. So we're taking a step back with all that knowledge to make something that's completely new and fresh. We're not trying to make a WoW sequel.




    [...] With Cataclysm, we did something pretty dramatic. We went back and redid the entire old world, we redid the quests. But we didn't actually change the game itself. We think there's a lot more that we can do within the context of World of Warcraft, but sometimes to break the mold you have to start over.


     


  • superniceguysuperniceguy Member UncommonPosts: 2,278

    TOR is the NGE NGEd, but written from the ground up

    In TOR,

    Crafting looks to be dumbed down further from NGE

    Space is more dumbed down from NGE

    Professions have been reduced further from NGE

    Vehicles look to be dumbed down too, as have seen no 8 player vehicles, and the Stap with the CE is ridiculous, as should not appear for another 1000s of years!

  • SharkypalSharkypal Member Posts: 1,137

    I just saw a quote about Blizzard's upcoming Titan MMO by Kotick and then I stopped reading.

    If Kotick has anything to do with it, the only thing it will be, is a huge cash grab same as WOTOR.

    We really need some old school devs to set up a company and make a real balls out sandbox because Kotick and Co are not going to do it, don't kid yourselves.

    You're talking about a guy who thinks it's a good idea to charge for cutscenes.

  • CasualMakerCasualMaker Member UncommonPosts: 862

    TOR doesn't look to be NGE of any sort.

    It's just KOTOR Online.

  • i_own_ui_own_u Member UncommonPosts: 314

    Thats right folks, you heard it here first! TOR is just a replacement until Titan Arrives!!!

    Oh and btw, LA has nothing to do with the games...It was SOE. And I believe they shut SWG down for a good reason. They realize that a new and BETTER Star Wars MMO is coming out and they need to abandon ship before they loose any more money.

  • stealthbrstealthbr Member UncommonPosts: 1,054

    Originally posted by wrekognize

    LA is giving all SWG players the middle finger and saying, play TOR if you want a Star Wars MMO. In turn, we are losing one of the last standing sandbox games. And yes SWG is still a sandbox game as it is now.  Much more so than 98% of the games out there.  There is no other reason why LA is shutting down SWG than to say, play TOR or else.  The sub numbers of SWG were far greater than many other MMOs i've tried.  Three highly active servers, a handful of medium servers and the rest low.  and Lucas Arts will get theirs. Quote me on this.  Blizzard will come out with a polished sandbox game that will set a new standard.  The project is called Titan (google it).  And Titan will do to TOR what WOW did to SWG.  In the end, Blizzard will have owned Lucas Arts twice.  First by using a themepark game (WOW) to destroy the sandbox (SWG), then by using a sandbox game (Titan) to destroy the themepark (TOR).  At least I will have a freaking game to play this time around.  TOR could have been innovative and made a stand in the MMO industry.  Instead, they are taking the easy "safe" route.  It will be RTS games and Chess for me in this day and age of MMOs.  Enjoy your storybook grind in the meantime..

    Sorry, but your post is completely filled with bias; it's hard to take seriously. In any manner I shall address each and every one of your remarks in an attempt to bring you to your senses.

    First, SWG will be closed for a simple reason: its licence. It is no secret that SWG was an unsuccessful project, and with low subscription numbers it was cleary evident that its closing would come as a new Star Wars MMO emerged. In a way, yes, LucasArts is taking away an option. However, businesses do not run on passion but on capital. If the game does not provide reasonable amounts of revenue and/or will directly compete with the same company's own project, it is only logical that the less successful project is shut down.

    Second, your claim that SWG has more population than most of the games you have played  is either clearly overstated to the brink of ludicrousy or you have been playing deserted games for the past few years. Not only that, MANY current players are only there to enjoy the free 45 day subscription.

    Third, there is currently no official evidence that Blizzard will produce a sandbox not to mention no evidence that the game will take down SWTOR. You, OP, are resorting to emotion to base your judgement, and in that you lack rationality. No claims on how successful or not Blizzard's new Titan MMO can be made for there is simply little information regarding the game. Save yourself the 'doom and gloom' for it serves no real purpose but to further remove your credibility as a poster.

    Fourth, SWTOR is months away from release, and so further judgement on that should be reserved until a better hour. You lack the perception required to understand how your bias taints your remarks in such blatant ways that your views become rather meaningless. I am in no way a fanboy, yet I am a defender of rationality and scowl at the sight of these posts.

  • ThorkuneThorkune Member UncommonPosts: 1,969

    Originally posted by Swanea

    Sandboxes are never casual.  That's plain and simple.  They skimp on content and raise the grind to a level that is unheard if western mmos.  Basically, you grind an asian themepark sort of grind.

     

     

    Anywaysssssssssssssss

    Titan will be super casual.  If it's not intigrated into facebook in someway, I'd be surprised.

    The grind in a sandbox MMO is no worse than any themepark that I have played. And...the immersion in a sandbox beats a themepark anyday.

  • TeknoBugTeknoBug Member UncommonPosts: 2,156


    Originally posted by Sharkypal
    I just saw a quote about Blizzard's upcoming Titan MMO by Kotick and then I stopped reading.
    If Kotick has anything to do with it, the only thing it will be, is a huge cash grab same as WOTOR.
    We really need some old school devs to set up a company and make a real balls out sandbox because Kotick and Co are not going to do it, don't kid yourselves.
    You're talking about a guy who thinks it's a good idea to charge for cutscenes.

    Kotick is in every way an unethical businessman, there's some funny statements on the wikipedia page of him, threatening to stop making PS3 games if Sony doesn't cut console prices? LOL he definitely wants console sales. He's already ruining the Call of Duty series, he should stay out o the MMO genre.

    image
    image

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,979

    Archage... so it'll be the "next big thing" just like every game from the East like Aion has been in the west?

    Oh wait...

     

    Guild Wars 2 has a lot of potential. I believe they are going to be super popular for many reasons, one of which being the lack of a subscription fee - big selling point for many, myself included.

     

    TOR will change things all right... games like WoW/Rift/LOTRO/etc. etc. will look like garbage in comparison to fully voiced with cutscenes and actual story instead of blobs of meaningless quest text. That's going to be a big negative for GW2, story done through panels like a comic book with text instead of fully voiced scripted cutscenes? Game play is going to have to be amazing in GW2 to stand a chance after players get used to TOR quality.

    No one will be able to release a theme park game that isn't fully voiced with scripted story etc. after TOR, which means that many studios simply won't because they don't have the time and money to compete with TOR.

    What will that leave us? Room for more niche games like GW2, room for more "out of formula" games like Secret World, etc.

    As for SWG and LA/SOE, SWG was never a well done game - that is fact. Played from day one up until the holocron grind (worst game mechanic idea ever) and SWG was always a buggy, unpolished, straight up broken, unbalanced mess.

    They spent far too much time adding new stuff like player housing and vehicles/mounts and space combat without ever actually taking the time to balance and fix the content they already had in the game.

    Then people started flocking to WoW like moths to the flame and they made the wrong choice to go with the CU and NGE instead of continuing to patch/fix their broken mess and try and hold on to the subs they still had.

    The fact SWG survived this long was amazing. The game should have died years ago, it was far, far, far worse the TR or E&B and those games ended way too early in their life.

    Coming back just months ago on a free trial for SWG and they STILL have the same animation, pathing, and AI issues the game had at launch. Pathetic.

    I had some good times in SWG, that's to be sure, but the game was a nightmare right from the beginning, and we the players begged/screamed for too much - we wanted everything fixed AND the new stuff when we should have been patient on the new stuff and pushed harder for fixes and balance.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,979

    Originally posted by bigsmiff

    Originally posted by Swanea

    Sandboxes are never casual.  That's plain and simple.  They skimp on content and raise the grind to a level that is unheard if western mmos.  Basically, you grind an asian themepark sort of grind.

    The grind in a sandbox MMO is no worse than any themepark that I have played. And...the immersion in a sandbox beats a themepark anyday.

     There has only been one "sandbox" MMO to EVER get the "grind" aspect correct - that was UO.

    Why?

    They allowed macro-ing for Pete's sake, you could 3-4x GM overnight while you slept.

    They created a game where there was no "leveling curve" you just.. played... and did stuff... it was the only "true" sandbox experience the MMO genre has ever seen.

    Now? All the sandbox games have levels and skill grinding and money grinding and faction/reputation grinding etc. etc. and as such are terribly linear grind fests. EvE, SWG, FFXI, EQ, AA, FE, DF, etc. most/all even have huge gear grinds and crafting grinds.

    Only way to do a true sandbox MMO is to remove the RPG "leveling up your toon" aspects from it - which includes gear AND skills/levels.

  • EmhsterEmhster Member UncommonPosts: 913

    To me, sandbox has nothing to do with a game being casual or grindy. Sandbox games are not forbidden from having tutorials, super user-friendly interfaces, being ultra-solo-friendly or having easy-to-understand mechanics. Moreover, sandbox games have grind. Otherwise what would be the point of building (and protecting) your house, fort, space vessel, shop or whatever the sandbox game allows you to do if you could rebuild it free of effort?

  • Bama1267Bama1267 Member UncommonPosts: 1,822

     So you guys expected anything different after the NGE? You spent years suporting the game anyway instead of having any kind of principle .... and *Big surprise* they screwed the remainder of you over and shut it down.

  • dougmysticeydougmysticey Member Posts: 1,176

    I normally try to stay positive but these threads are getting so old.

    First, SWG players please take off the rose colored glasses. SWG was failing before NGE which is why NGE happened in the first place. I am always sorry to see an MMO close down but SWG had its run and SOE did not want to pay to renew the license with LA. SWG had potential but it never, ever got there.

    Second, there are a lot of folks commenting on TOR that obviously are not doing thier homework. There is a LOT more unique to it and MMOs than just full VO which, in itself will set the bar.  Not only will it have highly polished feature similar to the most popular current MMOs but it will also have features that no MMO has.

    Here is one for an example: Companion characters...These will be customizable in appearance with a customizable A.I.  like Dagon Age. These are not pets and are an intregal part of your experience.  NEVER been done in an MMO.

    The 19 major planets it TOR are huge with one of them, for example, being equal to 8 WOW zones in size. Exploration is a big deal in the game and while it is not sandbox in style, exploring the worlds might scratch some of that itch.  

    By the way, for those people who love and harken back to UO and the like, Mr Vogal, the head producer of TOR was the producer of UO. He is the big influence on direction for TOR but the PVP/ Sandbox people never seem to mention this.

    Former folks of SWG, instead of being bitter that your game is closing down and simply attacking TOR go do some research and really understand the game before you outright trash it or call it NGE 2.0 which it is not.

    image

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945

    Originally posted by dougmysticey

    I normally try to stay positive but these threads are getting so old.

    First, SWG players please take off the rose colored glasses. SWG was failing before NGE which is why NGE happened in the first place.

    Actually SWG was gaining subscribers during the Combat Upgrade time period.  The NGE was a product of greed, envy and lack of care for customers.

    None of that is changed by which version of SWG someone thinks is better.  Two completely different issues.

  • theratmonkeytheratmonkey Member Posts: 684

    I believe it was SoE's choice. I think TOR might have had some influence in that - they probably predict that a lot of the subs from SWG will go to SWTOR anyway.

    Don't know if that will happen or not, but considering the hype behind the old republic, I could see them thinking that.

    Groovy.

  • taus01taus01 Member Posts: 1,352

    Originally posted by dougmysticey

    Here is one for an example: Companion characters...These will be customizable in appearance with a customizable A.I.  like Dagon Age. These are not pets and are an intregal part of your experience.  NEVER been done in an MMO.

    *YAWN*, Final Fantasy XI has fully customizable companions, you can dress them, give them jobs, weapons. They have changeable A.I. and will heal you, tank for you, perform skillchains with you ... They level up, get better abilities, just like a normal character. It's pretty much like leveling another character to cap.

    They have been in the game for at least 3-4 years. I am sure TOR "borrowed" that idea from FFXI.

    "Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

    image
  • demented669demented669 Member Posts: 402

    Originally posted by wrekognize

    LA is giving all SWG players the middle finger and saying, play TOR if you want a Star Wars MMO. In turn, we are losing one of the last standing sandbox games. And yes SWG is still a sandbox game as it is now.  Much more so than 98% of the games out there.  There is no other reason why LA is shutting down SWG than to say, play TOR or else.  The sub numbers of SWG were far greater than many other MMOs i've tried.  Three highly active servers, a handful of medium servers and the rest low.  and Lucas Arts will get theirs. Quote me on this.  Blizzard will come out with a polished sandbox game that will set a new standard.  The project is called Titan (google it).  And Titan will do to TOR what WOW did to SWG.  In the end, Blizzard will have owned Lucas Arts twice.  First by using a themepark game (WOW) to destroy the sandbox (SWG), then by using a sandbox game (Titan) to destroy the themepark (TOR).  At least I will have a freaking game to play this time around.  TOR could have been innovative and made a stand in the MMO industry.  Instead, they are taking the easy "safe" route.  It will be RTS games and Chess for me in this day and age of MMOs.  Enjoy your storybook grind in the meantime..

    image

  • ktanner3ktanner3 Member UncommonPosts: 4,063

    Originally posted by wrekognize

    LA is giving all SWG players the middle finger and saying, play TOR if you want a Star Wars MMO. In turn, we are losing one of the last standing sandbox games. And yes SWG is still a sandbox game as it is now.

     

    Sorry, but you lost all credibility with that statement. SWG ceased being a sandbox the moment the NGE hit. Unless of course you think world of warcraft is a sandbox because the NGE is nothing more than a poor attempt at copying WOW. You should be happy that it lasted as long as it did because if it hadn't have been named Star Wars it would have closed down a LONG time ago. Many people only stuck around because of the fact it was Star Wars and they would have all left as soon as TOR came out anyways. You might not have, but SOE and LA didn't think that a few thousand players was enough to justify the expense. The only people that were giving a middle finger was the thousands of players who left after SOE screwed them with the NGE. The rest were those that left the game later because it was just so bad. If you really care so much about the game, you should have been fighting to get players to actually play it. 

    And by the way, Star Wars Clone Adventures is still online, so your little conspiracy theory just fails completely. 

     TOR could have been innovative and made a stand in the MMO industry.  Instead, they are taking the easy "safe" route.  It will be RTS games and Chess for me in this day and age of MMOs.  Enjoy your storybook grind in the meantime..

    Don't worry, I will be. I'd rather play an interesting story in the Star Wars universe than play house in it. Enjoy your Chess. 

    Currently Playing: World of Warcraft

  • wizyywizyy Member UncommonPosts: 629

    I'm afraid SWTOR has no lasting appeal, and also - Diablo 3 will most likely be released to parry TOR release...

    Even though it's too early to tell, I think Bioware should have stayed into single-player games development. Blizzard still rules multiplayer, and will continue to do so.

  • NobadeeftwNobadeeftw Member UncommonPosts: 129

    I'm really glad they are shutting down SWG.  You don't see everyone whining about Tabula Rasa lately do you?  My point exactly.

  • stealthbrstealthbr Member UncommonPosts: 1,054

    Originally posted by wizyy

    I'm afraid SWTOR has no lasting appeal, and also - Diablo 3 will most likely be released to parry TOR release...

    Even though it's too early to tell, I think Bioware should have stayed into single-player games development. Blizzard still rules multiplayer, and will continue to do so.

    Please, do explain how you are afraid SWTOR will have no lasting appeal. What has lead you to that conclusion? I'm afraid your predications are nothing more than fruitless remarks. As you yourself have stated, it is indeed too early to tell.

  • ValentinaValentina Member RarePosts: 2,077

    Correction, they DID make the "Avatar's" and "Titanic's" of the gaming industry. Blizzard is not the same company they were when they made WC, SC, Diablo, or WoW. 99% of the innovative developers left WoW before they did the TBC expansion. This is fact. Most left for smaller companies, many also went to BioWare, and the rest to AreaNet.

     

    My prediction is that SW:TOR will do fantastically, it will maintain a high number of players because it simply provides a better gaming experience than any other game out right now. Guild Wars 2 will be successful in the footsteps of SW:TOR but it will not be as successful financially. People aren't going to like what they have planned for it business model wise, I can tell you that right now. Also, their demonstrations have been vastly inferior to SW:TOR's each time I've been to one. Yeah they have story and choice etc which is great but it's not even close to as well done as SW:TOR's is at this point and I hope that changes before launch but I doubt it will change too much at this point. GW2 also isn't a sandbox by any means whatsoever, its just as much of a "theme-park" MMO as SW:TOR is. Possibly even moreso. The two will stand alone and have their respective playerbases but no game will ever top WoW's peak success at this point in time and if you expect anything industry changing in every single way than you're only disappointing yourself. Titan will probably be good, but don't expect it to be great. Sandbox gaming is just about dead, sorry to say it but it is and you all know that so it's time to move on. Nobody want's to sit there and grind out things for building houses and roaming endlessly on empty terrains or abandoned ghost towns except for you and maybe a couple thousand other people here and there at most. ArchAge has already severely disappointed people overseas, and people who have played it from over here have said that it pretty much sucks right now. Titan won't be a sandbox game, I can also tell you that with certainty. In some ways it will be innovative but for the most part in reality it's not that much more innovative than what we're seeing this year and the next and don't expect it to genuinely feed your sandbox needs. At all.

  • NergleNergle Member UncommonPosts: 253

    Originally posted by heerobya

    Originally posted by bigsmiff


    Originally posted by Swanea

    Sandboxes are never casual.  That's plain and simple.  They skimp on content and raise the grind to a level that is unheard if western mmos.  Basically, you grind an asian themepark sort of grind.

    The grind in a sandbox MMO is no worse than any themepark that I have played. And...the immersion in a sandbox beats a themepark anyday.

     There has only been one "sandbox" MMO to EVER get the "grind" aspect correct - that was UO.

    Why?

    They allowed macro-ing for Pete's sake, you could 3-4x GM overnight while you slept.

    They created a game where there was no "leveling curve" you just.. played... and did stuff... it was the only "true" sandbox experience the MMO genre has ever seen.

    Now? All the sandbox games have levels and skill grinding and money grinding and faction/reputation grinding etc. etc. and as such are terribly linear grind fests. EvE, SWG, FFXI, EQ, AA, FE, DF, etc. most/all even have huge gear grinds and crafting grinds.

    Only way to do a true sandbox MMO is to remove the RPG "leveling up your toon" aspects from it - which includes gear AND skills/levels.

     I would have to say Second life is a sand box MMORPG (some times too much of one) SWG was a true sand box in the beginning or as close to it as can be ( there were no levels pre CU and NGE).

     

    I don't know, if they pull it off where TOR is 25% of  what Star Wars galaxies was in aspect of worlds immersion, I will be a happy camper (we will see though).

    I'm hoping they stick to what they are putting out as their biggest marketing strategy "player choices" that will really be innovative (but SWG had those to "Imperial, Rebel or straight up neutral;P").

  • superniceguysuperniceguy Member UncommonPosts: 2,278

    Originally posted by Nobadeeftw

    I'm really glad they are shutting down SWG.  You don't see everyone whining about Tabula Rasa lately do you?  My point exactly.

    Nobody really cared for Tabula Rasa that is is why. SWG was unique, and more people are playing SWG now today than there was tabula rasa. SWG was just ruined by bad decisions (the NGE being the biggest), but with the right decisions, it could have been truly awesome.

    The whining will continue, and you will see threads asking to bring in stuff from SWG including things like the Ewok Love Festival into SWTOR

    If SWG stayed active SWG players would still be able to enjoy it for what it is, and then enjoy SWTOR for it is. If LA wants to shut down SWG and wants us to play SWTOR then it had better have the stuff from SWG in it.

    I do not give a crap about SWTOR as have not invested any time into it yet, and if (hypothetical sitaution) EA/LA/Bioware went bankrupt and had no money left to operate SWTOR, and it got canned, then I would not be so disappointed as compared to SWG shutting down.

    However, If SWTOR is truly awesome and makes SWG look crap then would have moved to SWTOR and not cared that SWG gets shut down, and then there would be no whining.

    But as they are pulling SWG before giving SWG a chance to run side by side with SWTOR, it now starts SWTOR off with a bitter taste in my mouth, and my excitement for SWTOR has been shot to hell.

    If SWTOR fails, then it will not last as long as SWG did. EA are quite known to shutting down servers, they shut down the Japanese servers in SWG, and shut down servers for other PC and console games, a lot more easier than SOE does. Also rumour has it that EA are behind SWGs closure

  • ericlatrelleericlatrelle Member UncommonPosts: 176

    Originally posted by ktanner3

    Originally posted by wrekognize

    LA is giving all SWG players the middle finger and saying, play TOR if you want a Star Wars MMO. In turn, we are losing one of the last standing sandbox games. And yes SWG is still a sandbox game as it is now.

     

    Sorry, but you lost all credibility with that statement. SWG ceased being a sandbox the moment the NGE hit. Unless of course you think world of warcraft is a sandbox because the NGE is nothing more than a poor attempt at copying WOW. You should be happy that it lasted as long as it did because if it hadn't have been named Star Wars it would have closed down a LONG time ago. Many people only stuck around because of the fact it was Star Wars and they would have all left as soon as TOR came out anyways. You might not have, but SOE and LA didn't think that a few thousand players was enough to justify the expense. The only people that were giving a middle finger was the thousands of players who left after SOE screwed them with the NGE. The rest were those that left the game later because it was just so bad. If you really care so much about the game, you should have been fighting to get players to actually play it. 

    And by the way, Star Wars Clone Adventures is still online, so your little conspiracy theory just fails completely. 

     TOR could have been innovative and made a stand in the MMO industry.  Instead, they are taking the easy "safe" route.  It will be RTS games and Chess for me in this day and age of MMOs.  Enjoy your storybook grind in the meantime..

    Don't worry, I will be. I'd rather play an interesting story in the Star Wars universe than play house in it. Enjoy your Chess. 

    Q to the F to the motherfreaking E!!!

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