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The one thing that could 'kill' this game's mass appeal in the West...

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  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,645Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by blackemperor

    I think it is amazing how the west's mmo community contradicts itself. I read so many threads where people complain all mmos are WoW like ( instances, no open world pvp, etc etc..) and when a game does it right, people are unhappy and they want to play the same old boring PVE instances. 

    My question is, why are you people so scared of pvp? It really is not that bad, whats the point of playing a MMORPG if you just do PVE content. Get an offline game and play as much PVE as you want with not disruption.

     

     

    Well, to help your amazement, let me clear things up.

    The 'MMO community' in the West isnt one single entitiy that shares one opinion and taste in play style. It is actually a huge stack of individuals that mostly all want something diffrent.

    The 'MMO community' is a myth you have invented in your head. It dosent exist and there certainly isnt any contradiction in different players wanting different things.

    When one guy posts he wants something and another guy posts he wants something else it is two people with very different tastes expressing their opinions, thats all. Nothing to be amazed by, happens all the time in fact

    In short, there is no contradiction, so you are being 'amazed' at something that dosent even exist.

     

    As for a 'game doing it right'... well, it obviously is only 'doing it right' in your opinion and according to your tastes. In others views it needs to offer something different to be attractive.

     

    XL games obviously understand this and thats why they are preparing to offer alternate rule set servers.

     

    My answer to your question is that no one is 'scared' of PvP. It has nothing to do with fear. Why would it? It's all just stupid games, and tbh the fact that some even start to think it comes down to 'fear' suggests to me that some folks have a real problem with their fantasy/ reality divide.

    A lot of folks, myself included, love PvP, but they love it on an optional basis. We want to be able to control our entertainment and do things when we want, not when some ganker feels he needs some self esteem boost. A lot of folks feel like they pay their sub to have the fun they want when they want, and not exist to provide entertainment of some L90 (or whatever) thats chooses to grief farm them at L30 because he has had a bad day.

    A lot of folks play MMOs for social co-op play, and thats perfectly legitimate, whether it's your taste or not.

    A lot of folks also loathe the infantile angry posturing that soaks through open world PvP culture and simply don't want to have to deal with it as part of their leisure time.

    Add to all this that the vast majority of open world 'PvP' isnt that at all but rather pathetic 'gank me gank you' play perpetuated by PKs in the safest possible way (twinked gear, more levels, attacking targets enagaged on mobs, hacking etc) then I would challange that there is much 'versus' in it at all. (PgP more accuratly in fact- Play Gank Player, and that is the safest lamest play style possible, no matter how the self proclaimed PK l33t' present it.)

     

    As for telling optional PvPers, because thats what this thread is about,  to 'go play offline games'...well, I have no answer to you because it isobviously my turn to be 'amazed'.

     

    The point made in the OP is that to be bigger then a tiny niche this game needs to offer optional PvP servers, but nothing in your post seems to address that topic.

  • YasouYasou GenevaPosts: 86Member

    Let us have the choice. I don't see why PvP'ers would be bothered if the game had PvE servers.

  • YalexyYalexy BerlinPosts: 1,053Member Uncommon

    Having seperated servers is killing the community right away.

    The best way to solve the problem is the way EvE Online handles it (high-sec, low-sec, 0.0) and this is possible within ArcheAge aswell.

    The two main-islands should be heavily guarded by godlike NPCs and anyone engaging in non-consentual PvP there should be instantly attacked and killed, while the third island can be FFA. This way we can have both rulesets on a single server, not splitting up the community.

    If ArcheAge will get seperated PvE and PvP-servers then it's yet another possibly good MMO down the drain. I for sure will instantly loose any interest to play ArcheAge if there's seperated servers.

  • YasouYasou GenevaPosts: 86Member

    Why would it kill the community? Some people love PvP, others hate it. It's about playstyle, nothing else. If you want only PvP-servers to force non-PvPers to play the game anyway and therefore become easy targets it's the wrong state of mind.

    So leaving the choice of the playstyle is what any decent game is doing nowadays, and it shouldn't change here.

  • YalexyYalexy BerlinPosts: 1,053Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Yasou
    Why would it kill the community? Some people love PvP, others hate it. It's about playstyle, nothing else. If you want only PvP-servers to force non-PvPers to play the game anyway and therefore become easy targets it's the wrong state of mind.
    So leaving the choice of the playstyle is what any decent game is doing nowadays, and it shouldn't change here.

    Did you even read my post? You can have a single server divided into zones, so that those not interested in PvP that much can quest away in "safe-mode".

    How do you think the third continent will look like in the PvE-servers in that regard? A continent ment for slugging it out between the guilds, fighting for territory and ressources. Do we simply erase this continent on the PvE-servers?

    And what about PK-mechanics like sending someone to jail? Is this all going to be absent on the PvE-servers?

    I don't know if you understand the mechanics of ArcheAge, but the mechanics require stuff to be destroyed and rebuilt again, so that the economy can work out as intended. Labour-points, ressources, etc all tied to stuff being destroyed in sieges and PvP.

    I can allready tell you what the servers will look like, if we seperate them.... The PvP-servers will be populated with a few players ganking each other for a short time until they realize that they're forced to do lot's of PvE to craft the stuff needed for PvP. Then the servers will start to turn into wastelands.
    On the other hand, the PvE-servers will be crowded with people rushing through the content before they start to farm. The economy will be very inflationary as there's way more stuff crafted then what needs to be replaced (no PvP = no items destroyed [weapons, armor, ships, houses]). The developer will have a hard time to add PvE-content as fast as the players churn through it and the players will leave, turning the game into a wasteland again with no new players coming in due to the heavy inflation.

    And for communities being destroyed. All MMOs I've played during the lkast 10 years had one thing in common: Those with less servers or even better single servers have the best communities as everyone is playing in the same world. Veterans are responding to newbies and lend a helping hand to support the newbies.
    Those MMOs where there's dozens of servers don't have a good community and the forums are full of tards not helping the newbies but only calling them "n00bs" or shouting "l2p" etc.

    So again. Make the game so, that PvP and PvE happens to be on the same server, but have the PvE-content somewhat "safe" on the two faction continents.

  • YasouYasou GenevaPosts: 86Member

    Originally posted by Yalexy

     








    Did you even read my post?

    Yes I read it, and it appears I have a different opinion on the subject.

    And what about PK-mechanics like sending someone to jail?

    I'd love to see that in play!

    I don't mind about sieges, huge PvP battles where you can fight for a castle, a city etc. What's not my idea of fun is to put some effort in creating stuff, just to see it destroyed by someone who's biggest highlight of the day is to piss another player off. And FFA PvP unfortunately brings those kind of tards on board. The gankfest, the PK'ing till the player logs off totally disgusted, we've all seen it. And I don't want to see it in this game.
  • Crim21Crim21 chantilly, VAPosts: 11Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Yasou

    Originally posted by Yalexy

     








    Did you even read my post?

    Yes I read it, and it appears I have a different opinion on the subject.

    And what about PK-mechanics like sending someone to jail?

    I'd love to see that in play!

    I don't mind about sieges, huge PvP battles where you can fight for a castle, a city etc. What's not my idea of fun is to put some effort in creating stuff, just to see it destroyed by someone who's biggest highlight of the day is to piss another player off. And FFA PvP unfortunately brings those kind of tards on board. The gankfest, the PK'ing till the player logs off totally disgusted, we've all seen it. And I don't want to see it in this game.

    I will still play AA if theres full loot but i would rather see a partial loot system where you equiped stuff is safe but a percentage of your items in your bag can be looted. As for FFA while it will suck having those kind of people ther should be a server type that does not allow it and the ones that do have the consequences to pking someone on your faction.

    image

  • MadimorgaMadimorga Atlanta, GAPosts: 1,887Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Yasou

    Originally posted by Yalexy

     








    Did you even read my post?

    Yes I read it, and it appears I have a different opinion on the subject.

    And what about PK-mechanics like sending someone to jail?

    I'd love to see that in play!

    I don't mind about sieges, huge PvP battles where you can fight for a castle, a city etc. What's not my idea of fun is to put some effort in creating stuff, just to see it destroyed by someone who's biggest highlight of the day is to piss another player off. And FFA PvP unfortunately brings those kind of tards on board. The gankfest, the PK'ing till the player logs off totally disgusted, we've all seen it. And I don't want to see it in this game.

     

    Put me on that list, too.  I'm playing right now on AoC's new pvp server, it's not full loot, but I've dropped plenty of stuff, and I don't care.  And I don't care that I get killed twenty times a day, either.  Makes it more fun.  And once in awhile, I actually get revenge, which is very, very sweet.

     

    But that's different from building up land and crafted items to settle in with, only to see it destroyed every day or two.  There's no point in building at all when that nonsense happens, so why even have crafting and player created structures?

    image

    I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

    ~Albert Einstein

  • YalexyYalexy BerlinPosts: 1,053Member Uncommon

    Economy doesn't work without stuff being destroyed. Have fun with your inflationary non-functional economy on the PvE-servers.

  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Sugar Grove, VAPosts: 1,548Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Yalexy

    Economy doesn't work without stuff being destroyed. Have fun with your inflationary non-functional economy on the PvE-servers.

    PvP doesnt solve that either you know.

    Equipment degradation does but most games since DAoC allow you to repair items an infinite number of times and is mostly use a way to remove currency from the game.

    Move along.

    image

  • YalexyYalexy BerlinPosts: 1,053Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by SlyLoK


    Originally posted by Yalexy
    Economy doesn't work without stuff being destroyed. Have fun with your inflationary non-functional economy on the PvE-servers.

    PvP doesnt solve that either you know.
    Equipment degradation does but most games since DAoC allow you to repair items an infinite number of times and is mostly use a way to remove currency from the game.
    Move along.

    DAoC was good yes, I said this a few posts before allready. EvE is a more comparable game to ArcheAge tho and it's economy is the best you'll ever find in a MMO.... and it's PvP-based for a good reason.

    Degradation alone isn't anywhere enough to keep the economy going. Or do you really expect stuff to degrade as fast as stuff can be built? :lol:

  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Sugar Grove, VAPosts: 1,548Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Yalexy

     




    Originally posted by SlyLoK





    Originally posted by Yalexy

    Economy doesn't work without stuff being destroyed. Have fun with your inflationary non-functional economy on the PvE-servers.






    PvP doesnt solve that either you know.

    Equipment degradation does but most games since DAoC allow you to repair items an infinite number of times and is mostly use a way to remove currency from the game.

    Move along.



     

    DAoC was good yes, I said this a few posts before allready. EvE is a more comparable game to ArcheAge tho and it's economy is the best you'll ever find in a MMO.... and it's PvP-based for a good reason.

    Degradation alone isn't anywhere enough to keep the economy going. Or do you really expect stuff to degrade as fast as stuff can be built? :lol:

    Equipment doesnt need to degrade fast in an MMO. After a time it just needs to take gear out of the game world.

    PvP doesnt solve anything you are talking about. PvP keeps gear in the game world just as long as a PvE game with the same system. With PvP the PKers either keep items for backup or sell them..either way those items stay in the game world.

    Have you ever played EvE? Most of the game takes place inside of " safe / high security " space.

    AA is more than likely going to offer more than 1 server ruleset. Its time to accept it and move on.

    image

  • YalexyYalexy BerlinPosts: 1,053Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by SlyLoK

    Originally posted by Yalexy
     


    Originally posted by SlyLoK



    Originally posted by Yalexy
    Economy doesn't work without stuff being destroyed. Have fun with your inflationary non-functional economy on the PvE-servers.


    PvP doesnt solve that either you know.
    Equipment degradation does but most games since DAoC allow you to repair items an infinite number of times and is mostly use a way to remove currency from the game.
    Move along.



     
    DAoC was good yes, I said this a few posts before allready. EvE is a more comparable game to ArcheAge tho and it's economy is the best you'll ever find in a MMO.... and it's PvP-based for a good reason.
    Degradation alone isn't anywhere enough to keep the economy going. Or do you really expect stuff to degrade as fast as stuff can be built? :lol:


    Equipment doesnt need to degrade fast in an MMO. After a time it just needs to take gear out of the game world.
    PvP doesnt solve anything you are talking about. PvP keeps gear in the game world just as long as a PvE game with the same system. With PvP the PKers either keep items for backup or sell them..either way those items stay in the game world.
    Have you ever played EvE? Most of the game takes place inside of " safe / high security " space.
    AA is more than likely going to offer more than 1 server ruleset. Its time to accept it and move on.

    If you've played EvE, then you'd know, that stuff isn't being looted completely but 80% of it gets destroyed in PvP...

    And the safe high-sec in EvE can be compared with the two faction-islands in ArcheAge. You just need to install NPC-guards on those islands, just like CONCORD in high-sec.

    And again. Economy only works, if stuff isn't produced much faster then stuff exits the system by being destroyed or you'll face inflation big time.

  • YuuiYuui KaunasPosts: 723Member


    Originally posted by luciusETRUR
    I keep reading that full-loot PvP is not popular in the States. I find it ironic, because people here say Soccer isn't a tough, physical sport and that they are so soft they just flop around on the pitch. So, why wouldn't they like to play a full-loot PvP, can't get any more hardcore than that.

    I think you meant football. Soccer is such a derogatory term :/

    The way I see it there's football(foot touches the ball) and handegg(hand touches egg-like ball).

    # A GRIM, ODD, ARCANE SKY
    # ANY GOD, I MARK SACRED
    # A MASKED CRY ADORING
    # A DREAMY, SICK DRAGON

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,476Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by luciusETRUR
    I keep reading that full-loot PvP is not popular in the States. I find it ironic, because people here say Soccer isn't a tough, physical sport and that they are so soft they just flop around on the pitch. So, why wouldn't they like to play a full-loot PvP, can't get any more hardcore than that.

    Permadeath is the only real hardcore.
  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,645Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Yalexy

    Economy doesn't work without stuff being destroyed. Have fun with your inflationary non-functional economy on the PvE-servers.

     

    Wait what?

    PvE characters don't use 'stuff'?

     

    seriously though, what are you saying? That only PvP allows item degredation and a viable in game economy?

    Beacuse if you are... well, no, your wrong.

  • YalexyYalexy BerlinPosts: 1,053Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by vesavius

    Originally posted by Yalexy
    Economy doesn't work without stuff being destroyed. Have fun with your inflationary non-functional economy on the PvE-servers.
     
    Wait what?
    PvE characters don't use 'stuff'?
     
    seriously though, what are you saying? That only PvP allows item degredation and a viable in game economy?
    Beacuse if you are... well, no, your wrong.

    In PvE there's nothing destroyed... well, atleast there's nothing destroyed in the amount necessary to keep it in balance with the stuff being created. And if we try to handle it with item degredation, then the degredation has to be stoopidly high.

    And yes, I'm absolutely serious about the fact, that an ingame economy only works, if items are leaving the game just as fast as they enter the game.

    PvP isn't needed to keep the balance, but it's the best way to ensure the balance of the economy.

    Again, show me any other functional and non-inflationary economy other then EvE Online, where prices for items are stable over the period of half a decade.

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,645Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Yalexy

     




    Originally posted by vesavius





    Originally posted by Yalexy

    Economy doesn't work without stuff being destroyed. Have fun with your inflationary non-functional economy on the PvE-servers.






     

    Wait what?

    PvE characters don't use 'stuff'?

     

    seriously though, what are you saying? That only PvP allows item degredation and a viable in game economy?

    Beacuse if you are... well, no, your wrong.




     

    In PvE there's nothing destroyed... well, atleast there's nothing destroyed in the amount necessary to keep it in balance with the stuff being created. And if we try to handle it with item degredation, then the degredation has to be stoopidly high.

    A game has whatever the designer says it has. There is no cosmic law that says gear cannot degrade or be destroyed through simple use in PvE to a level that stimulates economy- that swords don't need sharpening, that armour dosent need repairing and replacing, that consumables such as pots and arrows don't need replenishing

    There is no cosmic law that says it has to be destroyed through PvP.

    You are talking like we are discussing real life physics here, rather then a set of desginer invented systems... Item degredation and destruction can be whatver the designer wants it to be, whether in PvP or PvE.

    And yes, I'm absolutely serious about the fact, that an ingame economy only works, if items are leaving the game just as fast as they enter the game.

    No, you miss the point. We agree on that, we just disagree that it's carved on Buddha's middle finger that this has to happen through PvP.

    Again, show me any other functional and non-inflationary economy other then EvE Online, where prices for items are stable over the period of half a decade.

    What? I think your confused with what I am saying... I am not saying this game or that game does it, I am saying it CAN be done and that just because you are basing your entire thinking on EvE PvP isnt the only way. I don't need to point to a game to discuss an idea... how would we move forward if anyone only built what had happened in the past?

    Oh yeah,we would get Rift :p

    Seriously though, we have gotten off topic here. This thread isnt about inflation or item destruction or economy. We have no idea at this stage how AA's economy is going to work out, or indeed it's basis or that it won't have hyperinflation in PvP OR PvE, and even if we did it wouldnt be the topic at hand. If you want to discuss this subject maybe start a theorycraft thread on it and not derail this one?

    This thread is about how having only open world PvP gankfest servers for this game will hurt it's popularity in the West and restrict it to being a tiny niche game, and how offering optional PvP servers could make it huge for minimal investment.

    Have you anything to say on that?

  • abyss610abyss610 northern cambria, PAPosts: 1,131Member

    its funny alot of the grievers use the excuse that pvers have thousands of different options of mmos for pvers to play.. how many of those are any good? rigth now i'm looking at 0, i want to play a good sand box with some new ideas and alot of options like AA and there is no other mmos that has that. i like pvp now and again but some times i like to just go and do my own thing without some basement dwelling mouth breather corpse camping me while i'm out trying to gather mats to craft.

    i see no reason NOT to have servers with different rules none at all.and saw no reasons givin by grievers as to why only 1 type of rule set on all servers could possibly be better for the game.if i'm on a pve server how am i effecting your game play on your ffa pvp server? on the other hand i have more times than not been effected on my pve server by the cry babies on pvp servers crying nerf to spells/classes because its "OP" for in pvp tho it was perfectly fine in pve...

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,645Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by abyss610

    its funny alot of the grievers use the excuse that pvers have thousands of different options of mmos for pvers to play.. how many of those are any good? rigth now i'm looking at 0, i want to play a good sand box with some new ideas and alot of options like AA and there is no other mmos that has that. i like pvp now and again but some times i like to just go and do my own thing without some basement dwelling mouth breather corpse camping me while i'm out trying to gather mats to craft.

    i see no reason NOT to have servers with different rules none at all.and saw no reasons givin by grievers as to why only 1 type of rule set on all servers could possibly be better for the game.if i'm on a pve server how am i effecting your game play on your ffa pvp server? on the other hand i have more times than not been effected on my pve server by the cry babies on pvp servers crying nerf to spells/classes because its "OP" for in pvp tho it was perfectly fine in pve...

     

    On the higlighted part- whats really funny is that PvEers (optional PvPers) want this to be their new game for exactly the same reason that the Open World Pvpers do... because the ones that exist don't offer what they are looking for.

     

    I ofc agree with the rest.

  • AnsgarIsenAnsgarIsen MannheimPosts: 118Member

    Well, the question of having multiple rulkesets/servers in an MMO is a rather old one. In most, if not all, cases, the decision for multiple rulesets is driven by business needs, as development costs are high and the companies need to address the broadest possible markets.

    However, it's questionable if the outcome is in favour of the game's quality as well as it's community's. To me, it looks like games actually sufer bigtime by this sort of a split and deviation from the original game design, just as much as the game's community suffers from being split into vocal and, at parts, even aggressive factions.

    For AA now, itvery much looks like it might be a rather big success on it's main eastern markets in the setup the developer has originally envisioned. If that turns out to be correct, the game is in the position to address the western market in it's original design as well, just because it could easily afford to be a niche game there. The development costs of a localization as well as hosting and maintaining a second server farm would mean only a fraction of the overall costs, allowing for such an approach, while maintaining the original, balanced out game design.

    In this very case, I'd say that bedning the game for additional tastes, maintianing multiple rulesets just for another makret would actually impose more risk on the game's success than not to, while staying true to it's basic ideas and keeping it's community a rather homogenous one.

    Those are the reasons why I'd prefer AA to reach the western market in it's original form, and just that one. It's far more promising to play it in the form it's meant to be played, than another bent , unbalanced und ultimatley unoriginal wreckage of what could have been a brilliant game at the start.

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon

    Im firmly in the PVE camp with some fun pvping and no griefing possible except in special zones. However if we do really want a sandbox community driven economy then either severe item degregation or some form of capital loss from pvp is required to ensure that demand does outstrip supply, its the foundation of any sandbox which is not playing the gear/tier inflation game.  I did think a different serrver with different rulesets is the way to go, but it implies super heavy item degregation is required to compensate for the reduced pvp losees so people needs to really think  about what they wish for and the implications of some rulesets.

    edit Re griefing, lets make it clear, it is antisocial selfish behaviour if the other party is trying to avoid all form of PVP - this  is not skillful PVP.  This is a world away from attacking someone who is in a position that is pvp valid ofc.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • hipiaphipiap Chicago, ILPosts: 439Member

    Originally posted by wazzap2121

    I agree to some extent.  Some restrictions should be made to keep those safe who don't wish to partake.  Even though some might call this "carebear" play, the majority of mmo players are in nature, carebears.  Those so called "bad asses" who post on the forums every 5 minutes about their pvp escapades ganking helpless players who are minding their own businesses need to understand that by nature, you're destroying the game you love.  

    The problem is that type of player doesn't actually care about the game they are playing.

     

    They care about their E-peen or E-Ego stroking.  Its all about the joy they get from the PK.

    24/7 Open world PvP should negate a Character progression grind....

    Most Western Produced games get this...you have to give choice or you risk the fate of all the other failed games.

    MMO History: 2528 days in SW:G
    image

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon

    Ha just thought of a great idea, whenever you grief someone you get a disease that gets progressivly worse the more times you attack someone not flagged for pvp , causing you to move slower, do less dmg and become horribly disfigured over time.  Only cure is to not pvp for a longish period of time3.  Now the griefers have to pay too for their pleasure :)

    job done.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • lthompson94lthompson94 Memphis, TNPosts: 194Member

    Originally posted by Yalexy

    Economy doesn't work without stuff being destroyed. Have fun with your inflationary non-functional economy on the PvE-servers.

    Items can be destroyed by PvE if it's implemented into a mechanic.

    The soulbound mechanic also works, but of course you'll scream WoW clone.

    Why doesn't anyone scream UO clone when there is full loot PvP?  I guess well never know.

    And how did all these FFA PvP'ers become economists?

    FFA PvP is the single reason I won't be playing ArchAge.  Well, that and the "trial" system.  Sucks too because I was looking forward to a game with some sandbox elements.  Alas, this ain't the one.  I PvP - but forcing people to PvP is no better than forcing people to run raids for the best spoils.  Pity no one has the sense to actually see that.  It's also a magnet for elitism, griefers, and general douchebaggery.  Half the reason why sandboxes generally fail or are basically dead.

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