Equivlent to forum trolling because the topic can't be proed one way or the other while there's an NDA in place. Maybe Blizzard is great at creating a market for its products. Maybe they're just in the right place at the right time. While I think they're a shade of their former selves, they have been the cornerstone of the PC industry for a long time.
As for Bioware, I love their games, but I think they're moving towards that corporate mentality and away from just creating great games. Besides voiceovers, player housing and facebook style crafting aren't very progressive. They've also got all their eggs in one basket with the story. Now, I'll be the first to say that is one of the things I've always complained about in MMOs, but ... that was 8 years ago. Second, many of TOR's systems look like ones I've already seen and were stale 4 years ago. The talent trees being the most obvious example.
Look at what Rift did and look at where The Secret World is going from a character development perspective and tell me that another MMO with skills, trainers and talent trees really gets you excited. To me, TOR character system looks like a cross between TR and AoC to me and neither were very good.
This game will be different than the other traditional MMOs because it will add BioWARE's story telling formula to the genre. When you go to do those MMO style quests you will know why and know the story because it will be narrated to you every step of the way. You wont click through the story because its all written. When you reach max level on a class you can start an alt and have a compeltely different story and experience or use the same class and choose different opetions for another angle of the story. Which makes it less of a grind when playing an MMO. My biggest problem with MMO's is the stupid boring grind that seem pointless in the context of the story just so the developer can stave off adding more real content. I'm tired of having to wait for them to release something new so I dont spend all my time in the grind. A replayability in an MMO like you have in the RPG's that BioWARE makes is huge for a gamer like me. Immersion and story are paramount and finally we'll see an MMO from a company that specializes in it. That's why its exciting to me.
This game will be different than the other traditional MMOs because it will add BioWARE's story telling formula to the genre. When you go to do those MMO style quests you will know why and know the story because it will be narrated to you every step of the way. You wont click through the story because its all written. When you reach max level on a class you can start an alt and have a compeltely different story and experience or use the same class and choose different opetions for another angle of the story. Which makes it less of a grind when playing an MMO. My biggest problem with MMO's is the stupid boring grind that seem pointless in the context of the story just so the developer can stave off adding more real content. I'm tired of having to wait for them to release something new so I dont spend all my time in the grind. A replayability in an MMO like you have in the RPG's that BioWARE makes is huge for a gamer like me. Immersion and story are paramount and finally we'll see an MMO from a company that specializes in it. That's why its exciting to me.
Then you should play sandbox games and single player games. It really irritating for those of us who actually like the social aspects of the game, the community build, etc that people like you and themepark games are taking the genre over. You beat a game and quit because thats all the game is to you and thats all its designed to be.
This game will be different than the other traditional MMOs because it will add BioWARE's story telling formula to the genre. When you go to do those MMO style quests you will know why and know the story because it will be narrated to you every step of the way. You wont click through the story because its all written. When you reach max level on a class you can start an alt and have a compeltely different story and experience or use the same class and choose different opetions for another angle of the story. Which makes it less of a grind when playing an MMO. My biggest problem with MMO's is the stupid boring grind that seem pointless in the context of the story just so the developer can stave off adding more real content. I'm tired of having to wait for them to release something new so I dont spend all my time in the grind. A replayability in an MMO like you have in the RPG's that BioWARE makes is huge for a gamer like me. Immersion and story are paramount and finally we'll see an MMO from a company that specializes in it. That's why its exciting to me.
Then you should play sandbox games and single player games. It really irritating for those of us who actually like the social aspects of the game, the community build, etc that people like you and themepark games are taking the genre over. You beat a game and quit because thats all the game is to you and thats all its designed to be.
So you're trying to imply that SW:TOR will not have a social aspect, even though it has everything most MMO's have in that area? Seriously? Thats a hollow argument. Your attack about sandboxy is ludicris because thats a tiny niche market and not indicative of BioWARE's work. I don't quit games, games quit their subscirbers when they stave off putting in content by putting in fluff. Small communities like that sort of crap and thats why those kinds of games fail. This will be a full fledged MMO with the common elemts of the genre all in there but added on will be BioWARE's storytelling technique. Thats the point and you tried your best to avoid arguing over what is clearly a fact and why this game, despite your jaded critical attitude, will be successful.
This game will be different than the other traditional MMOs because it will add BioWARE's story telling formula to the genre. When you go to do those MMO style quests you will know why and know the story because it will be narrated to you every step of the way. You wont click through the story because its all written. When you reach max level on a class you can start an alt and have a compeltely different story and experience or use the same class and choose different opetions for another angle of the story. Which makes it less of a grind when playing an MMO. My biggest problem with MMO's is the stupid boring grind that seem pointless in the context of the story just so the developer can stave off adding more real content. I'm tired of having to wait for them to release something new so I dont spend all my time in the grind. A replayability in an MMO like you have in the RPG's that BioWARE makes is huge for a gamer like me. Immersion and story are paramount and finally we'll see an MMO from a company that specializes in it. That's why its exciting to me.
Then you should play sandbox games and single player games. It really irritating for those of us who actually like the social aspects of the game, the community build, etc that people like you and themepark games are taking the genre over. You beat a game and quit because thats all the game is to you and thats all its designed to be.
So you're trying to imply that SW:TOR will not have a social aspect, even though it has everything most MMO's have in that area? Seriously? Thats a hollow argument. Your attack about sandboxy is ludicris because thats a tiny niche market and not indicative of BioWARE's work. I don't quit games, games quit their subscirbers when they stave off putting in content by putting in fluff. Small communities like that sort of crap and thats why those kinds of games fail. This will be a full fledged MMO with the common elemts of the genre all in there but added on will be BioWARE's storytelling technique. Thats the point and you tried your best to avoid arguing over what is clearly a fact and why this game, despite your jaded critical attitude, will be successful.
The blod part is exactly why most MMO are completely crap at the foundation. Yes, I am saying that SWTOR will not have the social aspect that I'm talking about because 90% of MMOs on the market do not have that social aspect anymore. Its more than meeting up for raids or playing the game together, its about community building. For instance, while I am playing rift and enjoying it atm, it does not have a focus on community development/involvment. Its MMO fast food. Once I'm done doing raids and all that jazz, the game will be boring unless the devlopers can make world shaping through pvp improtant becuase thats the only way themepark games can make community building important.
KTOR, the IP behind TOR, is a sandbox game franchise. If you played it, you'd know why I call it a sandbox, largely because of the ability to shape the world. TOR will not have the game shaping aspects, not in the meaningful sense anyways. You'll be able to shape your story, but not the world itself. On top of this, there is a finite amount of story haping that you can actual particapte in and everyone playing the game has the same options to shape their story the same way you do. SWG (pre-nge) had world shaping on a level no themepark game (VG was very close) can ever hope to acheve. TOR will be no different. The themepark modle is too ridgid and it appeals to a difference audience.
Just to make it clear, I don't care if SWTOR is sucessful or not. It probably will be, just like rift, wow, and AoC and EQ. That doesn't mean the game will be more or rather better than any of them. From the information and how the devs hype the game SWTOR is simply another themepark mmo. The reason people are tired of seeing the same "wow clone" is for the same reason why you quit themepark games every 6months until new content is released. If you are tired of that same old crap (as the ornage text leads me to believe) then you should stop buying the same old crap. Demand that the game have features and community building tools, things that make the game new and refershing every day even if its the same. Dynamic content, world building tools, player vs player confilct that actually impacts the world (not zone take over like WAR but desimation and permanet destruction like SB), etc.
No matter how much you want to believe other wise, SWTOR isn't breaking the mold for the MMO. It simply injecting a single player experience into an MMO and then making you pay for it. I'd rather play Skyrim and KOTR for a single payment of $50 (or less) than shell out 15 a month for the same crap.
And just to be clear, I think that you'll quit SWTOR after you've played through the game just like you do with every other themepark game.
This game will be different than the other traditional MMOs because it will add BioWARE's story telling formula to the genre. When you go to do those MMO style quests you will know why and know the story because it will be narrated to you every step of the way. You wont click through the story because its all written. When you reach max level on a class you can start an alt and have a compeltely different story and experience or use the same class and choose different opetions for another angle of the story. Which makes it less of a grind when playing an MMO. My biggest problem with MMO's is the stupid boring grind that seem pointless in the context of the story just so the developer can stave off adding more real content. I'm tired of having to wait for them to release something new so I dont spend all my time in the grind. A replayability in an MMO like you have in the RPG's that BioWARE makes is huge for a gamer like me. Immersion and story are paramount and finally we'll see an MMO from a company that specializes in it. That's why its exciting to me.
Then you should play sandbox games and single player games. It really irritating for those of us who actually like the social aspects of the game, the community build, etc that people like you and themepark games are taking the genre over. You beat a game and quit because thats all the game is to you and thats all its designed to be.
So you're trying to imply that SW:TOR will not have a social aspect, even though it has everything most MMO's have in that area? Seriously? Thats a hollow argument. Your attack about sandboxy is ludicris because thats a tiny niche market and not indicative of BioWARE's work. I don't quit games, games quit their subscirbers when they stave off putting in content by putting in fluff. Small communities like that sort of crap and thats why those kinds of games fail. This will be a full fledged MMO with the common elemts of the genre all in there but added on will be BioWARE's storytelling technique. Thats the point and you tried your best to avoid arguing over what is clearly a fact and why this game, despite your jaded critical attitude, will be successful.
This game will be different than the other traditional MMOs because it will add BioWARE's story telling formula to the genre. When you go to do those MMO style quests you will know why and know the story because it will be narrated to you every step of the way. You wont click through the story because its all written. When you reach max level on a class you can start an alt and have a compeltely different story and experience or use the same class and choose different opetions for another angle of the story. Which makes it less of a grind when playing an MMO. My biggest problem with MMO's is the stupid boring grind that seem pointless in the context of the story just so the developer can stave off adding more real content. I'm tired of having to wait for them to release something new so I dont spend all my time in the grind. A replayability in an MMO like you have in the RPG's that BioWARE makes is huge for a gamer like me. Immersion and story are paramount and finally we'll see an MMO from a company that specializes in it. That's why its exciting to me.
Then you should play sandbox games and single player games. It really irritating for those of us who actually like the social aspects of the game, the community build, etc that people like you and themepark games are taking the genre over. You beat a game and quit because thats all the game is to you and thats all its designed to be.
Really?
Why aren't you still playing Darkfall then? Instead of railing against the evils of the themepark, shouldn't you be supporting the only sandbox (outside of Eve) left with a population of more than 100 people.
you people are going to be in for a rude shock when you finally get playing this game.. and realize there is a monthly fee and micro transactions. The micro's just ruin character progression no matter how you look at it, if you can't play the game normally and loot stuff you would otherwise buy from the store its a failed game in a ton of peoples eyes. Even if you're only buying appearance gear and potions it ruins the point of why some of us play games which is to progress our characters and upgrade as we play the game, not by buying stuff from a store.. That makes the point of any game pointless which is why MT's fail in north america.
I think way too many of you are blinded by star wars the lore and or just rabid bioware fans to ever see how shallow and crappy this game will eventually end up being. And if you don't wanna keep playing wow clones well into the future, we all need this game to fail faster than vanguard.. which is why im not even worried about it succeeding since all it is, is a major wow ripp off and re skinned for star wars. And its all done by a company with no mmo experience and who thinks story telling belongs in mmo's LOL
3 months after this game launched it will be DOA... just like rift and any other game who thinks using wow's 8 year old mechanics is a good idea.. how many more 50+ million dollar failures do we need before they realize they aren't getting wow sub base!
Great, come back and talk to us 3 months after launch.
This game will be different than the other traditional MMOs because it will add BioWARE's story telling formula to the genre. When you go to do those MMO style quests you will know why and know the story because it will be narrated to you every step of the way. You wont click through the story because its all written. When you reach max level on a class you can start an alt and have a compeltely different story and experience or use the same class and choose different opetions for another angle of the story. Which makes it less of a grind when playing an MMO. My biggest problem with MMO's is the stupid boring grind that seem pointless in the context of the story just so the developer can stave off adding more real content. I'm tired of having to wait for them to release something new so I dont spend all my time in the grind. A replayability in an MMO like you have in the RPG's that BioWARE makes is huge for a gamer like me. Immersion and story are paramount and finally we'll see an MMO from a company that specializes in it. That's why its exciting to me.
Then you should play sandbox games and single player games. It really irritating for those of us who actually like the social aspects of the game, the community build, etc that people like you and themepark games are taking the genre over. You beat a game and quit because thats all the game is to you and thats all its designed to be.
Really?
Why aren't you still playing Darkfall then? Instead of railing against the evils of the themepark, shouldn't you be supporting the only sandbox (outside of Eve) left with a population of more than 100 people.
I stopped playing darkfall because it didn't fix its problems quick enough and I'm leaving for the military in sep.
So The article is boiling it all down to story being the "improvement"? I hate to burst the Devils bubble but story has always been a hallmark of MMO's traditional or otherwise. Even WoW has story, now granted some stories are better then others and the methods used to present that story may fall short for some games, Bioware has hardly reinvented the wheel with that one. The Truth here is that SWTOR will be WoW in space when the new car smell has long evaporized and the shrink wrap has been tore off and the seals broken on the product it will already be old news.
What you should be asking people is how did MMORPG's change to MMO's? Where has the rpg elements gone in todays online gaming and will SWTOR be bringing in any rpg elements, mechanics which quite honestly do not really exsist in many of the games we play today. Now a days you choose a race and class and that's it. All the skills are predetermined based on those things and desicions on how to craft and build a character fall largely on the gear you wear and your appearance instead of stat allocation or skill choices outside of that class.
A de-emphasis on crafting, lack of customizable player housing, and rich storytelling are hardly revolutionary. Also, try proofreading your opening paragraph.
He never said they were "revolutionary," he merely said that these things are staples of MMORPGs thus SWTOR is an MMORPG. What's this obsession that every new MMO Nhas to be "revolutionary."
If SWTOR is sucessful heck yes it will change the industry. As it stands I think it has to the point that more devs are paying more attention to story. From my point of view it'll sell like hotcakes for sure and keep subs for at least a few months. It COULD be the first real competition for WoW in a while. Now is it the second coming? No... no game is... Will it be a fun game with a good story presented bioware style that generally follows mmo conventions plus a few forgotten ones(aka housing and such)? Almost certainly.
That to me is worth a sub... it's more worth a sub than anything else available right now until GW2. Now they might dissapoint at some section in the game but<shrugs> nothing's perfect. I personally beleave mmo players need to remember the rpg part of mmorpg. That's totally my opinion though. I understand others might disagree. I accept that but to me it seems a no brainer that yeah if it doesn't crash and burn that other devs will take bits and pieces of the game and call it their own.
I think they are changing the way MMOs are made by not making an engine of their own but licensing a ready made engine (the Hero Engine)
We're gonna have to see more and more of this because developpement of an MMO is just too costly and at this point no one is taking any risks.
Do you know anything about MMOs? 90% of them are made using a ready made engine and have been for some time. Unreal, Gamebryo, Heroscape are just a few off the top of my head. MMO companies only make their own engire when the engines avaible restrict their development wishes
All I have to say is I have yet experience a world as truely remarkable as Norrath in EQ1. I remember to this day how alive the world felt, the scaling was amazing, the social interactions between players and GMs was great, and the best part about it was the freedom it gave me. I could explore any area I wished to and not be confined by "tunnel mountains".
The only other game that has come close to the same expierence I had in EQ was WoW....but that feeling quickly devolved with the rest of the game, when it became more of a chore and what I had to do, rather than doing whatever I wanted to do. As far as TOR becoming the next big thing to revolutionize the genre....I am just not seeing it, this game limits the player WAY too much....and the funny thing is the main selling point of this game, which is story, will enforce great limitation on the player.....because every player will experience the same story, have the same ship, experience the same interactions with their identical companions.....I have no idea why Bioware went the single player story route (personal stories) rather than creating a World Arc story that each and every player can play a role in...in their own very unique way.
Most people will disagree and say to me that sandbox is not the future....but I am sad to say it is. The sandbox needs to be improved drastically in order for it to see success, but having no limitations on the player is the only true way to create an artifical world for people to immerse themselves in. The only problem is figuring out a way to reduce the learning curve of these games, making it accessible to the players who lack the experience, the time, or the patience of dedicating their MMO time within these worlds.
Will TOR be successful? Its star wars......of course it will........Will it bring MMO's closer to their true potential? Doubt it
This game will be different than the other traditional MMOs because it will add BioWARE's story telling formula to the genre. When you go to do those MMO style quests you will know why and know the story because it will be narrated to you every step of the way. You wont click through the story because its all written. When you reach max level on a class you can start an alt and have a compeltely different story and experience or use the same class and choose different opetions for another angle of the story. Which makes it less of a grind when playing an MMO. My biggest problem with MMO's is the stupid boring grind that seem pointless in the context of the story just so the developer can stave off adding more real content. I'm tired of having to wait for them to release something new so I dont spend all my time in the grind. A replayability in an MMO like you have in the RPG's that BioWARE makes is huge for a gamer like me. Immersion and story are paramount and finally we'll see an MMO from a company that specializes in it. That's why its exciting to me.
Then you should play sandbox games and single player games. It really irritating for those of us who actually like the social aspects of the game, the community build, etc that people like you and themepark games are taking the genre over. You beat a game and quit because thats all the game is to you and thats all its designed to be.
So you're trying to imply that SW:TOR will not have a social aspect, even though it has everything most MMO's have in that area? Seriously? Thats a hollow argument. Your attack about sandboxy is ludicris because thats a tiny niche market and not indicative of BioWARE's work. I don't quit games, games quit their subscirbers when they stave off putting in content by putting in fluff. Small communities like that sort of crap and thats why those kinds of games fail. This will be a full fledged MMO with the common elemts of the genre all in there but added on will be BioWARE's storytelling technique. Thats the point and you tried your best to avoid arguing over what is clearly a fact and why this game, despite your jaded critical attitude, will be successful.
The blod part is exactly why most MMO are completely crap at the foundation. Yes, I am saying that SWTOR will not have the social aspect that I'm talking about because 90% of MMOs on the market do not have that social aspect anymore. Its more than meeting up for raids or playing the game together, its about community building. For instance, while I am playing rift and enjoying it atm, it does not have a focus on community development/involvment. Its MMO fast food. Once I'm done doing raids and all that jazz, the game will be boring unless the devlopers can make world shaping through pvp improtant becuase thats the only way themepark games can make community building important.
KTOR, the IP behind TOR, is a sandbox game franchise. If you played it, you'd know why I call it a sandbox, largely because of the ability to shape the world. TOR will not have the game shaping aspects, not in the meaningful sense anyways. You'll be able to shape your story, but not the world itself. On top of this, there is a finite amount of story haping that you can actual particapte in and everyone playing the game has the same options to shape their story the same way you do. SWG (pre-nge) had world shaping on a level no themepark game (VG was very close) can ever hope to acheve. TOR will be no different. The themepark modle is too ridgid and it appeals to a difference audience.
Just to make it clear, I don't care if SWTOR is sucessful or not. It probably will be, just like rift, wow, and AoC and EQ. That doesn't mean the game will be more or rather better than any of them. From the information and how the devs hype the game SWTOR is simply another themepark mmo. The reason people are tired of seeing the same "wow clone" is for the same reason why you quit themepark games every 6months until new content is released. If you are tired of that same old crap (as the ornage text leads me to believe) then you should stop buying the same old crap. Demand that the game have features and community building tools, things that make the game new and refershing every day even if its the same. Dynamic content, world building tools, player vs player confilct that actually impacts the world (not zone take over like WAR but desimation and permanet destruction like SB), etc.
No matter how much you want to believe other wise, SWTOR isn't breaking the mold for the MMO. It simply injecting a single player experience into an MMO and then making you pay for it. I'd rather play Skyrim and KOTR for a single payment of $50 (or less) than shell out 15 a month for the same crap.
And just to be clear, I think that you'll quit SWTOR after you've played through the game just like you do with every other themepark game.
A few things that didn't click. It's not just MMOs that have become fast food. Everything is fast food today: music, tv, news, movies, mini-vacations, meals, shopping, even conversations. Everything happens at a much faster pace. Most people aren't going to sit down to an old school traditional rpg pace. It's archaic at the speed we live today.
SWTOR will be about as sandbox as KOTOR. You make this choice, this race of people is destroyed, make that choice then this race of people is saved. blah blah blah. SWTOR can morph environments that fit in different states so if you have comleted a quest then the environment can look different. Your real issue is that everyone gets to do it. Well yes, that requires suspension of disbelief. You have to use your imagination to believe that only you and your party members completed that quest. It's part of storytelling. Or you can just say "this sucks! I just did a survey on Coruscant and 100 other people said they saved the Jawa people on that quest too!" It's up to your imagination. But I don't think it means that SWTOR is less of a sandbox than KOTOR.
SWTOR isn't exactly "injecting a single payer experience into an MMO" then making you pay for it. When games migrated from just text to simple graphics, MMORPGs and RPGs diverged. Some RPGs continued to enhance the story, the npcs, the plot. MMOs continued to focus more and more on gear, items, and bosses that require multiple people to fight. To the point that today's MMOs suck badly at story, believable NPC characters, and an exciting plot. MMOs did this MMO worlds are large, there are hundreds of quests. Creating a cohesive plot, with voice acting, extensive realistic NPC animations, facial expressions, all in a cohesive engaging story is daunting and way too expensive. It's easier to make it about all about item, gear, bosses, and pvp.
You make it sound like SWTOR is removing something from the MMO formula in order to give you cinematics. AKA ripping you off by charging you $15/month instead of just giving you a whole single player rpg that you can buy. They are giving you a full current day MMO and adding all the stuff that Bioware usually does on top of that. So I don't see how you can complain that you'd rather just pay once and have Skyrim? lol
When I look at what we have to select from: Aion, Eve Online, WoW, Star Trek Online, Final Fantasy XIV, Guild Wars 2, Archage, Tera, Darkfall, Rift, LotRo, The Secret World. They all have or probably will fail to make me give a damn about the story, the plot, even about the quest. The quest just becomes "oh let me grab these items so I can get some xp." But even in the SWTOR clips I actually found myself getting attached to the Mako character, the "Yoda" character, etc. Their voice acting, body language, facial expressions, cinematography make them come to life to me. They feel believable, realistic. I don't get that same feeling from looking at other MMO character clips, for example Tera, GW2, Secret World. If they can keep adding expansions onto the game with this level of quality then that's worth $15 a month.
Most people will disagree and say to me that sandbox is not the future....but I am sad to say it is. The sandbox needs to be improved drastically in order for it to see success, but having no limitations on the player is the only true way to create an artifical world for people to immerse themselves in.
That assumes that the developers want to make "an artificial world for people to immerse themselves in."
Now let's see...
Arnold Schoenberg created 12 tone music. He once said that one day people would be whistling them as he saw it as the future.
Now tell me, how many 12 tone meleodies do you whistle on the way to work?
The thing is, someone is always convinced that just because they consider something better that it will eventually be seen as such.
Not everyone is wired to be dropped into a world and figure out what they want to do.
too many people want to be guided from quest hub to quest hub.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
With all the innovation and talent that Bioware and Lucas Arts have available I am really surpised at the design they went for with space on rails for an MMO, yes that will change the industry into that crazy train requiring less development time and less budgets to have to request. Woot woot.
A few things that didn't click. It's not just MMOs that have become fast food. Everything is fast food today: music, tv, news, movies, mini-vacations, meals, shopping, even conversations. Everything happens at a much faster pace. Most people aren't going to sit down to an old school traditional rpg pace. It's archaic at the speed we live today.
You missed the point behind the analogy. Its not that the pacing is fast food like, its that the entire system is made ready to order and industrialized with little in way of customization/innovation. Its great for a "snack" but you can't live off it without becoming a fatass
SWTOR will be about as sandbox as KOTOR. You make this choice, this race of people is destroyed, make that choice then this race of people is saved. blah blah blah. SWTOR can morph environments that fit in different states so if you have comleted a quest then the environment can look different. Your real issue is that everyone gets to do it. Well yes, that requires suspension of disbelief. You have to use your imagination to believe that only you and your party members completed that quest. It's part of storytelling. Or you can just say "this sucks! I just did a survey on Coruscant and 100 other people said they saved the Jawa people on that quest too!" It's up to your imagination. But I don't think it means that SWTOR is less of a sandbox than KOTOR.
SWTOR isn't exactly "injecting a single payer experience into an MMO" then making you pay for it. When games migrated from just text to simple graphics, MMORPGs and RPGs diverged. Some RPGs continued to enhance the story, the npcs, the plot. MMOs continued to focus more and more on gear, items, and bosses that require multiple people to fight. To the point that today's MMOs suck badly at story, believable NPC characters, and an exciting plot. MMOs did this MMO worlds are large, there are hundreds of quests. Creating a cohesive plot, with voice acting, extensive realistic NPC animations, facial expressions, all in a cohesive engaging story is daunting and way too expensive. It's easier to make it about all about item, gear, bosses, and pvp.
You make it sound like SWTOR is removing something from the MMO formula in order to give you cinematics. AKA ripping you off by charging you $15/month instead of just giving you a whole single player rpg that you can buy. They are giving you a full current day MMO and adding all the stuff that Bioware usually does on top of that. So I don't see how you can complain that you'd rather just pay once and have Skyrim? lol
When I look at what we have to select from: Aion, Eve Online, WoW, Star Trek Online, Final Fantasy XIV, Guild Wars 2, Archage, Tera, Darkfall, Rift, LotRo, The Secret World. They all have or probably will fail to make me give a damn about the story, the plot, even about the quest. The quest just becomes "oh let me grab these items so I can get some xp." But even in the SWTOR clips I actually found myself getting attached to the Mako character, the "Yoda" character, etc. Their voice acting, body language, facial expressions, cinematography make them come to life to me. They feel believable, realistic. I don't get that same feeling from looking at other MMO character clips, for example Tera, GW2, Secret World. If they can keep adding expansions onto the game with this level of quality then that's worth $15 a month.
What you like about SWTOR is the story line. Thats fine, I'm not aruging that it won't be good. I'm saying that in and of itself is not enough to warrant calling the game a great MMO. The story doesn't foster comunity building, it detracts from it. Thats the problem I have with MMOs in general, community building has been replaced by raid instances, ques, PQ, and meaningless factional content.
Sandbox games typically do not have that problem. The commuinity building aspect is the heart of the game. The problem with most Sandbox MMOs is that they aren't made by people with money who are able to code in all the tools required to allow the players to create a great community. The new ones that have been released suffer from this problem: DFO, MO, Xsyon, Earth Rise, etc.
The only game that is coming out in the near future that is anything close to what would make a great community building game is ArchAge. It is a sandbox game with Themepark elements (raids, intro quest, leveling) but its heart its community building, world shaping, tempered by open world conflict. When you get killed, it will matter. When you get your house, it will matter. You can actually create syndicates in the game because you can actually control markets! The same is true with EvE and I'd play EvE if the combat wasn't so boring. I'm hoping that tera forming planets and the introduction of Dust will change that.
Oh come on tor will change the industry one way or the other. If it fails i dont see any company poring 150 plus mil into a title again.
If it is a success which i fully expect it to be it might just make devs less afraid to do what they do best , take there time although ud think wow would of taught them that and put out a game that has polish and content.
Tor has planets that are huge and massive. People complain how worlds arent truly massive anymore well in tor they are.
Sure its not a sandbox and space is on rails. So what i wouldnt play it if it was a space sim. I want my star wars on the ground. Which is where most of the movies take place.
They have also stated they are will to expand on space once they launch. Get over it already. Plus everyone who has actually played the space combat actually had a blast doing it. So its not as bad as some make it out to be.
I have played space sims before where i can go wherever i want and hated it with a passion . Not to mention i got lost easy.
That said tor will either give devs the ability to spend whats necessary to put out the game they want or publshers will stop paying 150 plus mil on games hoping to catch the fire wow did.
Comments
Equivlent to forum trolling because the topic can't be proed one way or the other while there's an NDA in place. Maybe Blizzard is great at creating a market for its products. Maybe they're just in the right place at the right time. While I think they're a shade of their former selves, they have been the cornerstone of the PC industry for a long time.
As for Bioware, I love their games, but I think they're moving towards that corporate mentality and away from just creating great games. Besides voiceovers, player housing and facebook style crafting aren't very progressive. They've also got all their eggs in one basket with the story. Now, I'll be the first to say that is one of the things I've always complained about in MMOs, but ... that was 8 years ago. Second, many of TOR's systems look like ones I've already seen and were stale 4 years ago. The talent trees being the most obvious example.
Look at what Rift did and look at where The Secret World is going from a character development perspective and tell me that another MMO with skills, trainers and talent trees really gets you excited. To me, TOR character system looks like a cross between TR and AoC to me and neither were very good.
If you don't worry about it, it's not a problem.
This game will be different than the other traditional MMOs because it will add BioWARE's story telling formula to the genre. When you go to do those MMO style quests you will know why and know the story because it will be narrated to you every step of the way. You wont click through the story because its all written. When you reach max level on a class you can start an alt and have a compeltely different story and experience or use the same class and choose different opetions for another angle of the story. Which makes it less of a grind when playing an MMO. My biggest problem with MMO's is the stupid boring grind that seem pointless in the context of the story just so the developer can stave off adding more real content. I'm tired of having to wait for them to release something new so I dont spend all my time in the grind. A replayability in an MMO like you have in the RPG's that BioWARE makes is huge for a gamer like me. Immersion and story are paramount and finally we'll see an MMO from a company that specializes in it. That's why its exciting to me.
Then you should play sandbox games and single player games. It really irritating for those of us who actually like the social aspects of the game, the community build, etc that people like you and themepark games are taking the genre over. You beat a game and quit because thats all the game is to you and thats all its designed to be.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
just another mmo imo, just being sold by the star wars brand, gw2 is the only upcoming mmo looking to break the mold
So you're trying to imply that SW:TOR will not have a social aspect, even though it has everything most MMO's have in that area? Seriously? Thats a hollow argument. Your attack about sandboxy is ludicris because thats a tiny niche market and not indicative of BioWARE's work. I don't quit games, games quit their subscirbers when they stave off putting in content by putting in fluff. Small communities like that sort of crap and thats why those kinds of games fail. This will be a full fledged MMO with the common elemts of the genre all in there but added on will be BioWARE's storytelling technique. Thats the point and you tried your best to avoid arguing over what is clearly a fact and why this game, despite your jaded critical attitude, will be successful.
The blod part is exactly why most MMO are completely crap at the foundation. Yes, I am saying that SWTOR will not have the social aspect that I'm talking about because 90% of MMOs on the market do not have that social aspect anymore. Its more than meeting up for raids or playing the game together, its about community building. For instance, while I am playing rift and enjoying it atm, it does not have a focus on community development/involvment. Its MMO fast food. Once I'm done doing raids and all that jazz, the game will be boring unless the devlopers can make world shaping through pvp improtant becuase thats the only way themepark games can make community building important.
KTOR, the IP behind TOR, is a sandbox game franchise. If you played it, you'd know why I call it a sandbox, largely because of the ability to shape the world. TOR will not have the game shaping aspects, not in the meaningful sense anyways. You'll be able to shape your story, but not the world itself. On top of this, there is a finite amount of story haping that you can actual particapte in and everyone playing the game has the same options to shape their story the same way you do. SWG (pre-nge) had world shaping on a level no themepark game (VG was very close) can ever hope to acheve. TOR will be no different. The themepark modle is too ridgid and it appeals to a difference audience.
Just to make it clear, I don't care if SWTOR is sucessful or not. It probably will be, just like rift, wow, and AoC and EQ. That doesn't mean the game will be more or rather better than any of them. From the information and how the devs hype the game SWTOR is simply another themepark mmo. The reason people are tired of seeing the same "wow clone" is for the same reason why you quit themepark games every 6months until new content is released. If you are tired of that same old crap (as the ornage text leads me to believe) then you should stop buying the same old crap. Demand that the game have features and community building tools, things that make the game new and refershing every day even if its the same. Dynamic content, world building tools, player vs player confilct that actually impacts the world (not zone take over like WAR but desimation and permanet destruction like SB), etc.
No matter how much you want to believe other wise, SWTOR isn't breaking the mold for the MMO. It simply injecting a single player experience into an MMO and then making you pay for it. I'd rather play Skyrim and KOTR for a single payment of $50 (or less) than shell out 15 a month for the same crap.
And just to be clear, I think that you'll quit SWTOR after you've played through the game just like you do with every other themepark game.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
Amen, brother!
Really?
Why aren't you still playing Darkfall then? Instead of railing against the evils of the themepark, shouldn't you be supporting the only sandbox (outside of Eve) left with a population of more than 100 people.
Great, come back and talk to us 3 months after launch.
I stopped playing darkfall because it didn't fix its problems quick enough and I'm leaving for the military in sep.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
So The article is boiling it all down to story being the "improvement"? I hate to burst the Devils bubble but story has always been a hallmark of MMO's traditional or otherwise. Even WoW has story, now granted some stories are better then others and the methods used to present that story may fall short for some games, Bioware has hardly reinvented the wheel with that one. The Truth here is that SWTOR will be WoW in space when the new car smell has long evaporized and the shrink wrap has been tore off and the seals broken on the product it will already be old news.
What you should be asking people is how did MMORPG's change to MMO's? Where has the rpg elements gone in todays online gaming and will SWTOR be bringing in any rpg elements, mechanics which quite honestly do not really exsist in many of the games we play today. Now a days you choose a race and class and that's it. All the skills are predetermined based on those things and desicions on how to craft and build a character fall largely on the gear you wear and your appearance instead of stat allocation or skill choices outside of that class.
He never said they were "revolutionary," he merely said that these things are staples of MMORPGs thus SWTOR is an MMORPG. What's this obsession that every new MMO Nhas to be "revolutionary."
If SWTOR is sucessful heck yes it will change the industry. As it stands I think it has to the point that more devs are paying more attention to story. From my point of view it'll sell like hotcakes for sure and keep subs for at least a few months. It COULD be the first real competition for WoW in a while. Now is it the second coming? No... no game is... Will it be a fun game with a good story presented bioware style that generally follows mmo conventions plus a few forgotten ones(aka housing and such)? Almost certainly.
That to me is worth a sub... it's more worth a sub than anything else available right now until GW2. Now they might dissapoint at some section in the game but<shrugs> nothing's perfect. I personally beleave mmo players need to remember the rpg part of mmorpg. That's totally my opinion though. I understand others might disagree. I accept that but to me it seems a no brainer that yeah if it doesn't crash and burn that other devs will take bits and pieces of the game and call it their own.
I think they are changing the way MMOs are made by not making an engine of their own but licensing a ready made engine (the Hero Engine)
We're gonna have to see more and more of this because developpement of an MMO is just too costly and at this point no one is taking any risks.
Who knows, who knows? perhaps, perhaps not.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Do you know anything about MMOs? 90% of them are made using a ready made engine and have been for some time. Unreal, Gamebryo, Heroscape are just a few off the top of my head. MMO companies only make their own engire when the engines avaible restrict their development wishes
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
All I have to say is I have yet experience a world as truely remarkable as Norrath in EQ1. I remember to this day how alive the world felt, the scaling was amazing, the social interactions between players and GMs was great, and the best part about it was the freedom it gave me. I could explore any area I wished to and not be confined by "tunnel mountains".
The only other game that has come close to the same expierence I had in EQ was WoW....but that feeling quickly devolved with the rest of the game, when it became more of a chore and what I had to do, rather than doing whatever I wanted to do. As far as TOR becoming the next big thing to revolutionize the genre....I am just not seeing it, this game limits the player WAY too much....and the funny thing is the main selling point of this game, which is story, will enforce great limitation on the player.....because every player will experience the same story, have the same ship, experience the same interactions with their identical companions.....I have no idea why Bioware went the single player story route (personal stories) rather than creating a World Arc story that each and every player can play a role in...in their own very unique way.
Most people will disagree and say to me that sandbox is not the future....but I am sad to say it is. The sandbox needs to be improved drastically in order for it to see success, but having no limitations on the player is the only true way to create an artifical world for people to immerse themselves in. The only problem is figuring out a way to reduce the learning curve of these games, making it accessible to the players who lack the experience, the time, or the patience of dedicating their MMO time within these worlds.
Will TOR be successful? Its star wars......of course it will........Will it bring MMO's closer to their true potential? Doubt it
OMG! U mean that grammer is required to be a online editor now?? WTF, i mean if i can't ROTFL while reading this POS then Y bother? pfhhhhh....
I agree that all proper grammer has gone out the window.
A few things that didn't click. It's not just MMOs that have become fast food. Everything is fast food today: music, tv, news, movies, mini-vacations, meals, shopping, even conversations. Everything happens at a much faster pace. Most people aren't going to sit down to an old school traditional rpg pace. It's archaic at the speed we live today.
SWTOR will be about as sandbox as KOTOR. You make this choice, this race of people is destroyed, make that choice then this race of people is saved. blah blah blah. SWTOR can morph environments that fit in different states so if you have comleted a quest then the environment can look different. Your real issue is that everyone gets to do it. Well yes, that requires suspension of disbelief. You have to use your imagination to believe that only you and your party members completed that quest. It's part of storytelling. Or you can just say "this sucks! I just did a survey on Coruscant and 100 other people said they saved the Jawa people on that quest too!" It's up to your imagination. But I don't think it means that SWTOR is less of a sandbox than KOTOR.
SWTOR isn't exactly "injecting a single payer experience into an MMO" then making you pay for it. When games migrated from just text to simple graphics, MMORPGs and RPGs diverged. Some RPGs continued to enhance the story, the npcs, the plot. MMOs continued to focus more and more on gear, items, and bosses that require multiple people to fight. To the point that today's MMOs suck badly at story, believable NPC characters, and an exciting plot. MMOs did this MMO worlds are large, there are hundreds of quests. Creating a cohesive plot, with voice acting, extensive realistic NPC animations, facial expressions, all in a cohesive engaging story is daunting and way too expensive. It's easier to make it about all about item, gear, bosses, and pvp.
You make it sound like SWTOR is removing something from the MMO formula in order to give you cinematics. AKA ripping you off by charging you $15/month instead of just giving you a whole single player rpg that you can buy. They are giving you a full current day MMO and adding all the stuff that Bioware usually does on top of that. So I don't see how you can complain that you'd rather just pay once and have Skyrim? lol
When I look at what we have to select from: Aion, Eve Online, WoW, Star Trek Online, Final Fantasy XIV, Guild Wars 2, Archage, Tera, Darkfall, Rift, LotRo, The Secret World. They all have or probably will fail to make me give a damn about the story, the plot, even about the quest. The quest just becomes "oh let me grab these items so I can get some xp." But even in the SWTOR clips I actually found myself getting attached to the Mako character, the "Yoda" character, etc. Their voice acting, body language, facial expressions, cinematography make them come to life to me. They feel believable, realistic. I don't get that same feeling from looking at other MMO character clips, for example Tera, GW2, Secret World. If they can keep adding expansions onto the game with this level of quality then that's worth $15 a month.
Ohh I thought he wasn't going to touch that spot
He's deserving the devil advocate title
"It has potential"
-Second most used phrase on existence
"It sucks"
-Most used phrase on existence
That assumes that the developers want to make "an artificial world for people to immerse themselves in."
Now let's see...
Arnold Schoenberg created 12 tone music. He once said that one day people would be whistling them as he saw it as the future.
Now tell me, how many 12 tone meleodies do you whistle on the way to work?
The thing is, someone is always convinced that just because they consider something better that it will eventually be seen as such.
Not everyone is wired to be dropped into a world and figure out what they want to do.
too many people want to be guided from quest hub to quest hub.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
With all the innovation and talent that Bioware and Lucas Arts have available I am really surpised at the design they went for with space on rails for an MMO, yes that will change the industry into that crazy train requiring less development time and less budgets to have to request. Woot woot.
SW:ToR, major hype, short term success.
SW:ToR, major hype, long term failure.
My opinion and my opinion only, I wont be playing
What you like about SWTOR is the story line. Thats fine, I'm not aruging that it won't be good. I'm saying that in and of itself is not enough to warrant calling the game a great MMO. The story doesn't foster comunity building, it detracts from it. Thats the problem I have with MMOs in general, community building has been replaced by raid instances, ques, PQ, and meaningless factional content.
Sandbox games typically do not have that problem. The commuinity building aspect is the heart of the game. The problem with most Sandbox MMOs is that they aren't made by people with money who are able to code in all the tools required to allow the players to create a great community. The new ones that have been released suffer from this problem: DFO, MO, Xsyon, Earth Rise, etc.
The only game that is coming out in the near future that is anything close to what would make a great community building game is ArchAge. It is a sandbox game with Themepark elements (raids, intro quest, leveling) but its heart its community building, world shaping, tempered by open world conflict. When you get killed, it will matter. When you get your house, it will matter. You can actually create syndicates in the game because you can actually control markets! The same is true with EvE and I'd play EvE if the combat wasn't so boring. I'm hoping that tera forming planets and the introduction of Dust will change that.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
Oh come on tor will change the industry one way or the other. If it fails i dont see any company poring 150 plus mil into a title again.
If it is a success which i fully expect it to be it might just make devs less afraid to do what they do best , take there time although ud think wow would of taught them that and put out a game that has polish and content.
Tor has planets that are huge and massive. People complain how worlds arent truly massive anymore well in tor they are.
Sure its not a sandbox and space is on rails. So what i wouldnt play it if it was a space sim. I want my star wars on the ground. Which is where most of the movies take place.
They have also stated they are will to expand on space once they launch. Get over it already. Plus everyone who has actually played the space combat actually had a blast doing it. So its not as bad as some make it out to be.
I have played space sims before where i can go wherever i want and hated it with a passion . Not to mention i got lost easy.
That said tor will either give devs the ability to spend whats necessary to put out the game they want or publshers will stop paying 150 plus mil on games hoping to catch the fire wow did.