Mobs warp or run back to their starting spots because players found ways to abuse the AI and interfere with a lot of other players' game time. More players are willing to play a game where another player can't ruin their experience, which means more money.
Truly intelligent AI is too expensive to implement relative to the rewards of having it in a game where the mob's purpose is to die and drop loot. Nobody wants to have to chase a deer half way across the mountain because they wounded it instead of killing it with one shot. Especially since they need to kill 9 more to get deer antlers for some stupid NPC.
Finally, not needing to farm for XP or gear increased the number of players that wanted to play mmorpg.
Not saying that EQ didn't have it right or that more intelligent mobs wouldn't be cool, just that there are real reasons why games are the way they are. It's not random and developers aren't all stupid. They don't have unlimited funds to develop games and have to have a return on their investment.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Consequence How was EQ AI "smart?" I am sorry, but it was very dumb much of the time. In fact, it was so dumb it allowed players of much lower level to kill mobs they had no business killing by just endlessly kiting without ever getting hit. Druids , with their runspeed, could kite /nuke to death almost any open zone mob in the game.
The term "trains" has faded from MMOs because of . But to those old enough to know what a EQ low guk "train" was you will remember them as funny but will not miss them from MMO's today.
You enter a zone to have someone leaving pull 100 mobs onto the zoneline to have them sit there and kill people b4 they could load into the zone.
Your nostalgia for EQ has blurred your memory. I agree that AI today is mostly boring, but EQ was not only worse, it was the seed that grew into todays AI.
Yeah, but most of the people in this thread would have to take off their nostalgia powered rose tinted glasses to see that.
But as long as these people can spout "everything was better back in the old days" or "today's MMOs dont want a challenge" like a mantra then they're happy. Kinda like a crotchety old grandpa that isnt happy unless he's complaining about something.
Yeah, but most of the people in this thread would have to take off their nostalgia powered rose tinted glasses to see that.
But as long as these people can spout "everything was better back in the old days" or "today's MMOs dont want a challenge" like a mantra then they're happy. Kinda like a crotchety old grandpa that isnt happy unless he's complaining about something.
There is some truth to the nostalgia factor but there is more to it than that. Being totally discouraged with modern mmos I went to play on the project 99 EQ emulator a while back and I still felt that it was better in many ways than modern mmos.
The newb magic was gone of course. You can never recapture that feeling. But there was fear of death which I had missed. There were unforgiving mobs. There was a greater feeling of freedom because you aren't directed every step of the way by quest progression. There was grouping, just bumping into people in a dungeon or out in the middle of nowhere and forming a group for mutual benefit. And, what seemed amazing after playing some modern games, there were people who would actually talk to each other and even get to know each other a little. Revisiting a form of classic EQ after playing modern games it was astonishing how social the game was. I had become so accustomed to other players being little more than graphical ghosts on my screen that it was almost shocking to have other players come up and start talking to me.
There were still some bad things about it too. The recovery times between fights can be a bit excessive I have to admit, depending on class and if you are soloing or grouping it varies but sometimes it just is a bit too long. There were the old class balance issues and some of the little pet peeves I always had with the game. And, of course, there was still my biggest issue with EQ which was the end-game raiding requiring too many people and too much time which is why I left the emulator just as it had caused me to leave the live game years ago, but at least this time around I knew what to expect.
Even so, that emulator of a 12 year old game held me for several months which is more than any of the modern games have done.
The simple answer is, "EQ1 mob ai was just too hard for stupid people to figure out." If stupid people aren't playing anymore, and thusly not paying subscriptions, the whole game suffers; the population dwindles and even the "good" players have few people left to whom they may "show off" or sell loot, and they eventually leave, too.
I've found if the game is "too much like school", it suffers, and it's really too bad because many of us enjoy the challenge. It is however, just a fact in human behavior, anything that requires 50% more brainpower than peeling a banana or tieing a shoe, just isn't fun for most people.
It's like today's mmo's are hardly even "games" anymore. People win at games, and just as often, people lose at games. Now, it's more like "going through the motions" to attain or achieve "this" and "that" and it's rather "bleh", but it sells subscriptions. Now we must all learn to enjoy the "bleh shades of gray". Thanks, numbskulls, for the perpetually lowering bar you set for us all.
So, you want to bring back griefing in some bit of nostalgia?
That is all that would be accomplished by bringing this back into the game.
unfortunately, the "feature" was nerfed due to griefing. leashing a mob accomplished 2 things, reduced griefing and fixed one of their hate propagation bugs. I remember back in the day where when you lose a mob, you'd have the entire zone after you in about 10 min due to hate propagation:D it was interesting when you see the entire dreadlands chase after you:D mobs from 5 miles away was making a beeline after your arse:D
as centkin mentioned, the hate propagation bug together with z axis bug made very interesting trains in blackburrow:D especially if you figure in the warp bug:D suddently you got 8 mobs warp right on top of your group:D
wasn't funny back then, but sure is hilarious now to think back on it:D
The simple answer is, "EQ1 mob ai was just too hard for stupid people to figure out." If stupid people aren't playing anymore, and thusly not paying subscriptions, the whole game suffers; the population dwindles and even the "good" players have few people left to whom they may "show off" or sell loot, and they eventually leave, too.
There are good challenges and stupid challenges. Mob trains are a stupid challenge, exploitable by malicious players to ruin other players' experience.
If you can't see that as an obviously undesirable feature, you've got some rose-tinted glasses for EQ1.
Players want fun, interesting, engaging challenges. Not stupid ones.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Yeah, but most of the people in this thread would have to take off their nostalgia powered rose tinted glasses to see that.
But as long as these people can spout "everything was better back in the old days" or "today's MMOs dont want a challenge" like a mantra then they're happy. Kinda like a crotchety old grandpa that isnt happy unless he's complaining about something.
There is some truth to the nostalgia factor but there is more to it than that. Being totally discouraged with modern mmos I went to play on the project 99 EQ emulator a while back and I still felt that it was better in many ways than modern mmos.
The newb magic was gone of course. You can never recapture that feeling. But there was fear of death which I had missed. There were unforgiving mobs. There was a greater feeling of freedom because you aren't directed every step of the way by quest progression. There was grouping, just bumping into people in a dungeon or out in the middle of nowhere and forming a group for mutual benefit. And, what seemed amazing after playing some modern games, there were people who would actually talk to each other and even get to know each other a little. Revisiting a form of classic EQ after playing modern games it was astonishing how social the game was. I had become so accustomed to other players being little more than graphical ghosts on my screen that it was almost shocking to have other players come up and start talking to me.
There were still some bad things about it too. The recovery times between fights can be a bit excessive I have to admit, depending on class and if you are soloing or grouping it varies but sometimes it just is a bit too long. There were the old class balance issues and some of the little pet peeves I always had with the game. And, of course, there was still my biggest issue with EQ which was the end-game raiding requiring too many people and too much time which is why I left the emulator just as it had caused me to leave the live game years ago, but at least this time around I knew what to expect.
Even so, that emulator of a 12 year old game held me for several months which is more than any of the modern games have done.
I dont understand how you can say EQ leveling was not linear. It was the grandfather of all linear games, it founded them.
You start in 1 zone, do the kill quests and kill mobs and when they become easy for you you go 1 zone over where they are slightly higher and do the same. Then when you are done wit hthem you zone another zone over and rinse and repeat. This is the DEFINITION of linear and it is exactly how old EQ was.
People remember EQ because it was the 1st for many. But, almost everything bad in MMOs today was started in EQ. The level grind/treadmill, the linear zones, the massive gear grind at max level, the fact that there is little to do at max level aside from 4+ hour raids, the horrible gm/customer service system found in most MMOs.....ALL of these attriocities started with EQ.
The game had its good moments, but the game was largely the founding father of everything in MMOs you hear people complain about today. Take your EQ nostalgia beergoggles off and you will see that chick ain't so pretty.
Yeah, the aggroed monster was an ANGRY monster. It was furious and everyone on it's path knew it.
And the monsters looked more angry all together in EQ. If you agro some goblin, you can tell he wants to rip you into pieces and eat your heart It was scary. It felt dangerous. And the sound when they hit you hard! Could almost feel it
Now the mobs look and act just like some cartoons and doesn't make you feel anything - fear, danger or excitement..
btw, i miss ghouls from EQ. That's how undead should look and act. Pure evil
There is some truth to the nostalgia factor but there is more to it than that. Being totally discouraged with modern mmos I went to play on the project 99 EQ emulator a while back and I still felt that it was better in many ways than modern mmos.
The newb magic was gone of course. You can never recapture that feeling. But there was fear of death which I had missed. There were unforgiving mobs. There was a greater feeling of freedom because you aren't directed every step of the way by quest progression. There was grouping, just bumping into people in a dungeon or out in the middle of nowhere and forming a group for mutual benefit. And, what seemed amazing after playing some modern games, there were people who would actually talk to each other and even get to know each other a little. Revisiting a form of classic EQ after playing modern games it was astonishing how social the game was. I had become so accustomed to other players being little more than graphical ghosts on my screen that it was almost shocking to have other players come up and start talking to me.
There were still some bad things about it too. The recovery times between fights can be a bit excessive I have to admit, depending on class and if you are soloing or grouping it varies but sometimes it just is a bit too long. There were the old class balance issues and some of the little pet peeves I always had with the game. And, of course, there was still my biggest issue with EQ which was the end-game raiding requiring too many people and too much time which is why I left the emulator just as it had caused me to leave the live game years ago, but at least this time around I knew what to expect.
Even so, that emulator of a 12 year old game held me for several months which is more than any of the modern games have done.
I dont understand how you can say EQ leveling was not linear. It was the grandfather of all linear games, it founded them.
You start in 1 zone, do the kill quests and kill mobs and when they become easy for you you go 1 zone over where they are slightly higher and do the same. Then when you are done wit hthem you zone another zone over and rinse and repeat. This is the DEFINITION of linear and it is exactly how old EQ was.
People remember EQ because it was the 1st for many. But, almost everything bad in MMOs today was started in EQ. The level grind/treadmill, the linear zones, the massive gear grind at max level, the fact that there is little to do at max level aside from 4+ hour raids, the horrible gm/customer service system found in most MMOs.....ALL of these attriocities started with EQ.
The game had its good moments, but the game was largely the founding father of everything in MMOs you hear people complain about today. Take your EQ nostalgia beergoggles off and you will see that chick ain't so pretty.
Actually I never said the leveling in EQ was not linear. In fact I largely agree with your assessment of it. However, it does feel more open and free just for the fact that you are not led specifically from point to point by an endless series of trivial quests. Of course it is a level based game so inevitably it is linear in nature; you kill X level mobs then you kill X+1 level mobs and so on. The difference between EQ and new games in this respect is that in old EQ you had to decide for yourself if you were going to go -here- to look for stuff to kill or maybe go -over there- whereas in new games it's all decided for you and layed out in a predetermined path every step of the way.
I also agree with you that a lot of bad things in MMOs were started by EQ or if not started there were cemented into the genre there. But newer games haven't improved on it. You might say they've reduced the grind but anyone who believes that is falling for an illusion since there is always more to grind for in any progression game. An endless grind is an endless grind. The difference in the grind in old EQ and new games is that the way it was implemented in EQ led to people taking more time to smell the roses, talk to each other, go exploring just for the hell of it and so on. It also occassionally gave you a feeling of danger and even excitement. Newer games feel even more like a rat-race than EQ did and that's a sad thing.
So yes, EQ was a linear progression grind, I agree. But as far as linear progression grind games go it was better than the new ones in many ways.
I wish to God someone would come up with a new paradigm altogether for MMOs but I've given up beating that particular horse.
Not sure how I feel about this, but I do remember the Allakhazam/EQ forums being awash with players that hated trains. I hated them, but they were fun too, and I do feel the tug of nostalgia when I think of the train in BB (pretty sure it was the whole zone) that almost killed my mid 30's ranger. But I did make it out, and saved a couple lowbie groups (for the most part), so I counted it as a win, and moved on to complete the quest I was working on.
I did like the fact that mobs would run for help in dungeons. Both because it felt more "real", and because it made my ranger more useful in groups with my snare (druids could snare too, but a lot of groups wouldn't take them bc druids weren't very "group friendly in that game as they could easily solo).
Yes, I am an old schooler who crys myself to sleep thinking of the "glory days" of MMO's before WoW "ruined" everything, but give us old timers a break, because without us playing (and paying for) EQ, UO, and DAoC (among others), you young punks would be playing Diablo IV and Warcraft V right now instead of WoW.
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx So, you want to bring back griefing in some bit of nostalgia?
That is all that would be accomplished by bringing this back into the game.
This is exactly what I thought when I read the OP...
Sure, the challenge was fun, but even EQ most of it is instanced anymore. Most of the open zones are pretty ruthless with the "nostalgia" of open aggro. KSing, training, mob warp exploits, etc.
I do somewhat lament the loss of semi-challenging AI mechanics, and the mixture of level-appropriate content in areas/zones. But just eliminating mob ownership/tagging and aggro lock mechanics isn't really the solution.
That's pretty much par for the course around here. People are pining for some mythical version of EQ that never existed except in their rose-colored memories.
I can remember several times that GM's had to intervene because that "smart AI" had caused a clusterfuck that would make a zone unplayable. There's a difference between smart AI and broken AI and EQ had plenty of broken AI.
Not sure how mobs that never stop chasing you somehow equates to a game having 'smart AI'. This is just as exploitable as any other predictable behavior, and with negative consequences that those of us who played the real EQ (not the mythical EQ that seems to exist on this and other forums) remember quite well.
I agree with the comments about trains; they were memorable, but so is being in an auto accident.
One point in favor of trains is that they were a multiplayer design. In World of Warcraft, you pull, the monster chases you and if it gives up, it goes back to its start point. It doesn't involve any other players that are nearby. That's bad design because it produces the solo experience that so many gripe about. Nobody cares if you blow an attack because it only affects you.
I don't want trains, but surely monster AI can be structured such that player experiences are intertwined to some degree when they are operating in the same area. I'd want something non-catastrophic so that if the two of us are operating solo in an area we're actually working in concert with one another to some degree. The best World of Warcraft can do in that direcction is that two solo players can be implicitly agreeing to clear a camp so they can reach the boss.
We don't need trains that cause everyone in an area to stop playing the game while they watch a conga line of 30 monsters go back to their spawn locations.
Yes AI not UI. Sorry it was Friday and I had that on my mind. A lot feel that I have some nalstalga going on here. Maybe a little but not really. I'm what you call a Hardcore gamer at heart. I played just about every MMO after EQ. WOW I played for hardcore until WOTLK where it crossed the line for me. I was in a Tier 1 guild killing all the biggest and baddest the servers had to offer. We cleared all WOTLK had to offer 2 weeks after getting enough to raid, both 10/25 man. Raiding was fun until WOTLK. I came back for Cata but after leveling 4 toons to 85 I quit as I simply didn't have anything else to do other than raid which I didn't want to commit too. WOTLK and CATA have turned the end game of WOW into a snob fest. I feel sorry for the guys that level up slowly as by time they hit 85 they will be snubbed in groups due to lack of gear. Then the issue of how do they get gear if they can't do herics. OMG - Bliz will probably fix that in the next expansion by just giving everyone Heroic gear when they hit max level.
As far as AI goes, yes EQ AI was a lot better for many of the reasons given in this thred. Yes a lot of you don't like the challenge EQ provided and that's fine as you are the majority. However, it's a shame that those of us that actually want a challenging game can't have one due to greed and casual players. Just look at WOW. It was a decent game until the Arena and TBC came out. TBC still gave people like me a challenge as SWP was hard as hell. However, it ruined WoW for what it was. Now everyone looked the same, armor was handed out like candy at Disney Land. You could no longer walk in Org and tell the hardcore player from the casul PVP Nub. Walking around in full T2 Drangonstalker gear days were done.
Back to EQ. The AI was simply better. I like mobs that use spells smartly. I like not knowing if I will live or die when the fight starts. I liked the fear of entering a new zone. I liked having a friends list so I could get ports instead of just clicking on some stone. I liked the days of the EC Tunnel Trading and F'ing HATE Auction Houses. I like to barder and trade and not just click BUY and have shit magically show up in my mailbox. Instances simply suck. I enjoyed the chase to get the bosses in EQ. I miss having people in a dungeon with me other than my group. I miss the fact that your reputation meant everything to you on a server and if you got a bad one you could not play. I miss the fact that only certain classes could solo and NOT every class. I liked the fact in EQ that a Warrior could not solo. I played a Shaman as my frist toon. It took me almost a year to level him up most of which was SOLO. I think I hit 85 with my frist toon in Cata in like 5 days. Pathetic.
I enjoy KSing and despise locked mobs. Sure there are times when it sucked to have someone steal your mobs but that was life and what made EQ what it was. Same goes for trains. Sure zoning into a zone only to be mashed by 30 mobs at the zone line was not fun, but it's part of the game. I miss mobs that run for help. I miss trains. I miss dungeons that are not instanced. I miss camps.
I would love to see a modern EQ done with the pre POP settings. Just update the graphics and be done with it. No fast travel, no auction houses, no instances, smart AI, realistic character traits etc.
Yes AI not UI. Sorry it was Friday and I had that on my mind. A lot feel that I have some nalstalga going on here. Maybe a little but not really. I'm what you call a Hardcore gamer at heart. I played just about every MMO after EQ. WOW I played for hardcore until WOTLK where it crossed the line for me. I was in a Tier 1 guild killing all the biggest and baddest the servers had to offer. We cleared all WOTLK had to offer 2 weeks after getting enough to raid, both 10/25 man. Raiding was fun until WOTLK. I came back for Cata but after leveling 4 toons to 85 I quit as I simply didn't have anything else to do other than raid which I didn't want to commit too. WOTLK and CATA have turned the end game of WOW into a snob fest. I feel sorry for the guys that level up slowly as by time they hit 85 they will be snubbed in groups due to lack of gear. Then the issue of how do they get gear if they can't do herics. OMG - Bliz will probably fix that in the next expansion by just giving everyone Heroic gear when they hit max level.
As far as AI goes, yes EQ AI was a lot better for many of the reasons given in this thred. Yes a lot of you don't like the challenge EQ provided and that's fine as you are the majority. However, it's a shame that those of us that actually want a challenging game can't have one due to greed and casual players. Just look at WOW. It was a decent game until the Arena and TBC came out. TBC still gave people like me a challenge as SWP was hard as hell. However, it ruined WoW for what it was. Now everyone looked the same, armor was handed out like candy at Disney Land. You could no longer walk in Org and tell the hardcore player from the casul PVP Nub. Walking around in full T2 Drangonstalker gear days were done.
Back to EQ. The AI was simply better. I like mobs that use spells smartly. I like not knowing if I will live or die when the fight starts. I liked the fear of entering a new zone. I liked having a friends list so I could get ports instead of just clicking on some stone. I liked the days of the EC Tunnel Trading and F'ing HATE Auction Houses. I like to barder and trade and not just click BUY and have shit magically show up in my mailbox. Instances simply suck. I enjoyed the chase to get the bosses in EQ. I miss having people in a dungeon with me other than my group. I miss the fact that your reputation meant everything to you on a server and if you got a bad one you could not play. I miss the fact that only certain classes could solo and NOT every class. I liked the fact in EQ that a Warrior could not solo. I played a Shaman as my frist toon. It took me almost a year to level him up most of which was SOLO. I think I hit 85 with my frist toon in Cata in like 5 days. Pathetic.
I enjoy KSing and despise locked mobs. Sure there are times when it sucked to have someone steal your mobs but that was life and what made EQ what it was. Same goes for trains. Sure zoning into a zone only to be mashed by 30 mobs at the zone line was not fun, but it's part of the game. I miss mobs that run for help. I miss trains. I miss dungeons that are not instanced. I miss camps.
I would love to see a modern EQ done with the pre POP settings. Just update the graphics and be done with it. No fast travel, no auction houses, no instances, smart AI, realistic character traits etc.
End game raiding in wow has been a snob fest since the first update that added more raids other than MC.
The nostalgic part of me agrees 100%. I remember how "hard core" EQ was in its day, especially with the severe death penalties. You really cared back then about being careful and not dying. I remember having to wait around for 4 hours once while another guild helped us get back into PoF after a total raid wipeout.
The business side of me disagrees 100%. What you're asking for is a hard core MMO, and that only appeals to a small subset of the masses. Before the masses had options, they were forced to play hard core regardless of whether they liked it or not. But now with so many options out there, most players seem to prefer the less harsh MMO's that are abundantly available.
What's interesting is going back to EQ, having played newer MMO's. After a day or three, the nostalgia wears off, and I find myself uninstalling it (or DAoC for that matter, which for the record was my favorite MMO of all time). Maybe its my tastes that have changed... <shrug>
Yes AI not UI. Sorry it was Friday and I had that on my mind. A lot feel that I have some nalstalga going on here. Maybe a little but not really. I'm what you call a Hardcore gamer at heart. I played just about every MMO after EQ. WOW I played for hardcore until WOTLK where it crossed the line for me. I was in a Tier 1 guild killing all the biggest and baddest the servers had to offer. We cleared all WOTLK had to offer 2 weeks after getting enough to raid, both 10/25 man. Raiding was fun until WOTLK. I came back for Cata but after leveling 4 toons to 85 I quit as I simply didn't have anything else to do other than raid which I didn't want to commit too. WOTLK and CATA have turned the end game of WOW into a snob fest. I feel sorry for the guys that level up slowly as by time they hit 85 they will be snubbed in groups due to lack of gear. Then the issue of how do they get gear if they can't do herics. OMG - Bliz will probably fix that in the next expansion by just giving everyone Heroic gear when they hit max level.
As far as AI goes, yes EQ AI was a lot better for many of the reasons given in this thred. Yes a lot of you don't like the challenge EQ provided and that's fine as you are the majority. However, it's a shame that those of us that actually want a challenging game can't have one due to greed and casual players. Just look at WOW. It was a decent game until the Arena and TBC came out. TBC still gave people like me a challenge as SWP was hard as hell. However, it ruined WoW for what it was. Now everyone looked the same, armor was handed out like candy at Disney Land. You could no longer walk in Org and tell the hardcore player from the casul PVP Nub. Walking around in full T2 Drangonstalker gear days were done.
Back to EQ. The AI was simply better. I like mobs that use spells smartly. I like not knowing if I will live or die when the fight starts. I liked the fear of entering a new zone. I liked having a friends list so I could get ports instead of just clicking on some stone. I liked the days of the EC Tunnel Trading and F'ing HATE Auction Houses. I like to barder and trade and not just click BUY and have shit magically show up in my mailbox. Instances simply suck. I enjoyed the chase to get the bosses in EQ. I miss having people in a dungeon with me other than my group. I miss the fact that your reputation meant everything to you on a server and if you got a bad one you could not play. I miss the fact that only certain classes could solo and NOT every class. I liked the fact in EQ that a Warrior could not solo. I played a Shaman as my frist toon. It took me almost a year to level him up most of which was SOLO. I think I hit 85 with my frist toon in Cata in like 5 days. Pathetic.
I enjoy KSing and despise locked mobs. Sure there are times when it sucked to have someone steal your mobs but that was life and what made EQ what it was. Same goes for trains. Sure zoning into a zone only to be mashed by 30 mobs at the zone line was not fun, but it's part of the game. I miss mobs that run for help. I miss trains. I miss dungeons that are not instanced. I miss camps.
I would love to see a modern EQ done with the pre POP settings. Just update the graphics and be done with it. No fast travel, no auction houses, no instances, smart AI, realistic character traits etc.
End game raiding in wow has been a snob fest since the first update that added more raids other than MC.
Yes but with the new Gear Scores it's even worse. Not just for raiding. Not to mention the achievements page which people want you to have all the latest and greatest achievements. They were meant for pride I suppose but now they are looked at for recruitment. Thus you could be a really good player but not get a second look because you are new to the game or took a lot of time off.
Mobs did not follow you if you zoned which is absolutely unrealistic. That is not what I call smart AI. You want trains? Zoning is an easy way out of this and should not be in the game if we want to avoid griefing. If you really wanna be hardcore, make it so that mobs never deaggro unless you or it dies! Mobs should follow you even if you zoned otherwise it is too "cookie cutter" sorry.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
damn I was going to really rip into the OP if he meant UI. EQ has an awful UI. AI wise er don't think it's any different except mobs chased you right across the zone in EQ. But there was stuff like bashing and summoning though.
Oh also roll on SoE fanfaire- find out more news on whether EQ: Next is going to exist or not.
The nostalgic part of me agrees 100%. I remember how "hard core" EQ was in its day, especially with the severe death penalties. You really cared back then about being careful and not dying. I remember having to wait around for 4 hours once while another guild helped us get back into PoF after a total raid wipeout.
The business side of me disagrees 100%. What you're asking for is a hard core MMO, and that only appeals to a small subset of the masses. Before the masses had options, they were forced to play hard core regardless of whether they liked it or not. But now with so many options out there, most players seem to prefer the less harsh MMO's that are abundantly available.
What's interesting is going back to EQ, having played newer MMO's. After a day or three, the nostalgia wears off, and I find myself uninstalling it (or DAoC for that matter, which for the record was my favorite MMO of all time). Maybe its my tastes that have changed...
It's funny though because things like "hardcore" are all relative. I remember in the heyday of EQ, it was regarded as a "carebear" kind of MMO and compared to big MMO preceding it (UO), it was. EQ didn't have open-PvP, and you couldn't lose any of your stuff if you died provided you made it to your corpse (which usually wasn't that difficult).
But nowadays in the era of extremely mild death penalties and easily escapable MOBs...EQ is hardcore. And I think this is what a lot of old-school gamers are afraid of. Will later games shift even further from what "hardcore" is regarded as now so that we look back at WoW and say how "hardcore" that game was? It's getting kind of ridiculous.
I miss mobs that ran for help. I hated EQ1 kobolds but damn do I miss them. Get the bugger down a bit and he starts to run, you'd better finish him or he's bringing the whole clan to kick your ass.
Was it hard? yes
Was it frustrating? sometimes
Was it rewarding and a little more realistic? To me, yes.
More of this would be great. But this is just nostalgia.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Lol, I was almost halfway the OP's post when I realised that he meant AI instead of UI, I was already wondering what that smart UI was about
Yeah, EQ was awesome. Damn, when someone started yelling 'train to zone!' those were definitely moments when people started paying attention and scutter away, those mobs were far more assertive and brutal than the current ones.
MMO devs changed it in later MMO's for player convenience, I guess. Taking away all the rough edges of the gameplay on which players might accidentally hurt their toe on. A shame, rough edges in gameplay gives it its charm as well.
The smart UI in the title pulled me into this thread.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
It's funny though because things like "hardcore" are all relative. I remember in the heyday of EQ, it was regarded as a "carebear" kind of MMO and compared to big MMO preceding it (UO), it was. EQ didn't have open-PvP, and you couldn't lose any of your stuff if you died provided you made it to your corpse (which usually wasn't that difficult).
But nowadays in the era of extremely mild death penalties and easily escapable MOBs...EQ is hardcore. And I think this is what a lot of old-school gamers are afraid of. Will later games shift even further from what "hardcore" is regarded as now so that we look back at WoW and say how "hardcore" that game was? It's getting kind of ridiculous.
There is a lot of truth to that. Whatever evolution is happening in MMORPGs the one thing we can be sure of is that they are becoming easier. If someone doesn't like the word "easier" then replace it with some other appropriate word but you get the general idea.
I've seen this change right here on these forums in the way people regard me. When I first started posting here people called me a casual, easy-mode, etc. player. Now people call me a hardcore masochist. It's really strange to be standing on one side of the fence with the more casual crowd and then have the fence moved so that I end up on the side with the hardcore crowd. I didn't move, the dividing line between hardcore and casual moved.
Comments
Mobs warp or run back to their starting spots because players found ways to abuse the AI and interfere with a lot of other players' game time. More players are willing to play a game where another player can't ruin their experience, which means more money.
Truly intelligent AI is too expensive to implement relative to the rewards of having it in a game where the mob's purpose is to die and drop loot. Nobody wants to have to chase a deer half way across the mountain because they wounded it instead of killing it with one shot. Especially since they need to kill 9 more to get deer antlers for some stupid NPC.
Finally, not needing to farm for XP or gear increased the number of players that wanted to play mmorpg.
Not saying that EQ didn't have it right or that more intelligent mobs wouldn't be cool, just that there are real reasons why games are the way they are. It's not random and developers aren't all stupid. They don't have unlimited funds to develop games and have to have a return on their investment.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
But as long as these people can spout "everything was better back in the old days" or "today's MMOs dont want a challenge" like a mantra then they're happy. Kinda like a crotchety old grandpa that isnt happy unless he's complaining about something.
There is some truth to the nostalgia factor but there is more to it than that. Being totally discouraged with modern mmos I went to play on the project 99 EQ emulator a while back and I still felt that it was better in many ways than modern mmos.
The newb magic was gone of course. You can never recapture that feeling. But there was fear of death which I had missed. There were unforgiving mobs. There was a greater feeling of freedom because you aren't directed every step of the way by quest progression. There was grouping, just bumping into people in a dungeon or out in the middle of nowhere and forming a group for mutual benefit. And, what seemed amazing after playing some modern games, there were people who would actually talk to each other and even get to know each other a little. Revisiting a form of classic EQ after playing modern games it was astonishing how social the game was. I had become so accustomed to other players being little more than graphical ghosts on my screen that it was almost shocking to have other players come up and start talking to me.
There were still some bad things about it too. The recovery times between fights can be a bit excessive I have to admit, depending on class and if you are soloing or grouping it varies but sometimes it just is a bit too long. There were the old class balance issues and some of the little pet peeves I always had with the game. And, of course, there was still my biggest issue with EQ which was the end-game raiding requiring too many people and too much time which is why I left the emulator just as it had caused me to leave the live game years ago, but at least this time around I knew what to expect.
Even so, that emulator of a 12 year old game held me for several months which is more than any of the modern games have done.
The simple answer is, "EQ1 mob ai was just too hard for stupid people to figure out." If stupid people aren't playing anymore, and thusly not paying subscriptions, the whole game suffers; the population dwindles and even the "good" players have few people left to whom they may "show off" or sell loot, and they eventually leave, too.
I've found if the game is "too much like school", it suffers, and it's really too bad because many of us enjoy the challenge. It is however, just a fact in human behavior, anything that requires 50% more brainpower than peeling a banana or tieing a shoe, just isn't fun for most people.
It's like today's mmo's are hardly even "games" anymore. People win at games, and just as often, people lose at games. Now, it's more like "going through the motions" to attain or achieve "this" and "that" and it's rather "bleh", but it sells subscriptions. Now we must all learn to enjoy the "bleh shades of gray". Thanks, numbskulls, for the perpetually lowering bar you set for us all.
unfortunately, the "feature" was nerfed due to griefing. leashing a mob accomplished 2 things, reduced griefing and fixed one of their hate propagation bugs. I remember back in the day where when you lose a mob, you'd have the entire zone after you in about 10 min due to hate propagation:D it was interesting when you see the entire dreadlands chase after you:D mobs from 5 miles away was making a beeline after your arse:D
as centkin mentioned, the hate propagation bug together with z axis bug made very interesting trains in blackburrow:D especially if you figure in the warp bug:D suddently you got 8 mobs warp right on top of your group:D
wasn't funny back then, but sure is hilarious now to think back on it:D
There are good challenges and stupid challenges. Mob trains are a stupid challenge, exploitable by malicious players to ruin other players' experience.
If you can't see that as an obviously undesirable feature, you've got some rose-tinted glasses for EQ1.
Players want fun, interesting, engaging challenges. Not stupid ones.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I dont understand how you can say EQ leveling was not linear. It was the grandfather of all linear games, it founded them.
You start in 1 zone, do the kill quests and kill mobs and when they become easy for you you go 1 zone over where they are slightly higher and do the same. Then when you are done wit hthem you zone another zone over and rinse and repeat. This is the DEFINITION of linear and it is exactly how old EQ was.
People remember EQ because it was the 1st for many. But, almost everything bad in MMOs today was started in EQ. The level grind/treadmill, the linear zones, the massive gear grind at max level, the fact that there is little to do at max level aside from 4+ hour raids, the horrible gm/customer service system found in most MMOs.....ALL of these attriocities started with EQ.
The game had its good moments, but the game was largely the founding father of everything in MMOs you hear people complain about today. Take your EQ nostalgia beergoggles off and you will see that chick ain't so pretty.
Yeah, the aggroed monster was an ANGRY monster. It was furious and everyone on it's path knew it.
And the monsters looked more angry all together in EQ. If you agro some goblin, you can tell he wants to rip you into pieces and eat your heart
It was scary. It felt dangerous. And the sound when they hit you hard! Could almost feel it 
Now the mobs look and act just like some cartoons and doesn't make you feel anything - fear, danger or excitement..
btw, i miss ghouls from EQ. That's how undead should look and act. Pure evil
Actually I never said the leveling in EQ was not linear. In fact I largely agree with your assessment of it. However, it does feel more open and free just for the fact that you are not led specifically from point to point by an endless series of trivial quests. Of course it is a level based game so inevitably it is linear in nature; you kill X level mobs then you kill X+1 level mobs and so on. The difference between EQ and new games in this respect is that in old EQ you had to decide for yourself if you were going to go -here- to look for stuff to kill or maybe go -over there- whereas in new games it's all decided for you and layed out in a predetermined path every step of the way.
I also agree with you that a lot of bad things in MMOs were started by EQ or if not started there were cemented into the genre there. But newer games haven't improved on it. You might say they've reduced the grind but anyone who believes that is falling for an illusion since there is always more to grind for in any progression game. An endless grind is an endless grind. The difference in the grind in old EQ and new games is that the way it was implemented in EQ led to people taking more time to smell the roses, talk to each other, go exploring just for the hell of it and so on. It also occassionally gave you a feeling of danger and even excitement. Newer games feel even more like a rat-race than EQ did and that's a sad thing.
So yes, EQ was a linear progression grind, I agree. But as far as linear progression grind games go it was better than the new ones in many ways.
I wish to God someone would come up with a new paradigm altogether for MMOs but I've given up beating that particular horse.
Not sure how I feel about this, but I do remember the Allakhazam/EQ forums being awash with players that hated trains. I hated them, but they were fun too, and I do feel the tug of nostalgia when I think of the train in BB (pretty sure it was the whole zone) that almost killed my mid 30's ranger. But I did make it out, and saved a couple lowbie groups (for the most part), so I counted it as a win, and moved on to complete the quest I was working on.
I did like the fact that mobs would run for help in dungeons. Both because it felt more "real", and because it made my ranger more useful in groups with my snare (druids could snare too, but a lot of groups wouldn't take them bc druids weren't very "group friendly in that game as they could easily solo).
Yes, I am an old schooler who crys myself to sleep thinking of the "glory days" of MMO's before WoW "ruined" everything, but give us old timers a break, because without us playing (and paying for) EQ, UO, and DAoC (among others), you young punks would be playing Diablo IV and Warcraft V right now instead of WoW.
This is exactly what I thought when I read the OP...
Sure, the challenge was fun, but even EQ most of it is instanced anymore. Most of the open zones are pretty ruthless with the "nostalgia" of open aggro. KSing, training, mob warp exploits, etc.
I do somewhat lament the loss of semi-challenging AI mechanics, and the mixture of level-appropriate content in areas/zones. But just eliminating mob ownership/tagging and aggro lock mechanics isn't really the solution.
That's pretty much par for the course around here. People are pining for some mythical version of EQ that never existed except in their rose-colored memories.
I can remember several times that GM's had to intervene because that "smart AI" had caused a clusterfuck that would make a zone unplayable. There's a difference between smart AI and broken AI and EQ had plenty of broken AI.
Not sure how mobs that never stop chasing you somehow equates to a game having 'smart AI'. This is just as exploitable as any other predictable behavior, and with negative consequences that those of us who played the real EQ (not the mythical EQ that seems to exist on this and other forums) remember quite well.
"Bunny Train to Zone!" anyone?
Greystaff Legends RPG
I agree with the comments about trains; they were memorable, but so is being in an auto accident.
One point in favor of trains is that they were a multiplayer design. In World of Warcraft, you pull, the monster chases you and if it gives up, it goes back to its start point. It doesn't involve any other players that are nearby. That's bad design because it produces the solo experience that so many gripe about. Nobody cares if you blow an attack because it only affects you.
I don't want trains, but surely monster AI can be structured such that player experiences are intertwined to some degree when they are operating in the same area. I'd want something non-catastrophic so that if the two of us are operating solo in an area we're actually working in concert with one another to some degree. The best World of Warcraft can do in that direcction is that two solo players can be implicitly agreeing to clear a camp so they can reach the boss.
We don't need trains that cause everyone in an area to stop playing the game while they watch a conga line of 30 monsters go back to their spawn locations.
Yes AI not UI. Sorry it was Friday and I had that on my mind. A lot feel that I have some nalstalga going on here. Maybe a little but not really. I'm what you call a Hardcore gamer at heart. I played just about every MMO after EQ. WOW I played for hardcore until WOTLK where it crossed the line for me. I was in a Tier 1 guild killing all the biggest and baddest the servers had to offer. We cleared all WOTLK had to offer 2 weeks after getting enough to raid, both 10/25 man. Raiding was fun until WOTLK. I came back for Cata but after leveling 4 toons to 85 I quit as I simply didn't have anything else to do other than raid which I didn't want to commit too. WOTLK and CATA have turned the end game of WOW into a snob fest. I feel sorry for the guys that level up slowly as by time they hit 85 they will be snubbed in groups due to lack of gear. Then the issue of how do they get gear if they can't do herics. OMG - Bliz will probably fix that in the next expansion by just giving everyone Heroic gear when they hit max level.
As far as AI goes, yes EQ AI was a lot better for many of the reasons given in this thred. Yes a lot of you don't like the challenge EQ provided and that's fine as you are the majority. However, it's a shame that those of us that actually want a challenging game can't have one due to greed and casual players. Just look at WOW. It was a decent game until the Arena and TBC came out. TBC still gave people like me a challenge as SWP was hard as hell. However, it ruined WoW for what it was. Now everyone looked the same, armor was handed out like candy at Disney Land. You could no longer walk in Org and tell the hardcore player from the casul PVP Nub. Walking around in full T2 Drangonstalker gear days were done.
Back to EQ. The AI was simply better. I like mobs that use spells smartly. I like not knowing if I will live or die when the fight starts. I liked the fear of entering a new zone. I liked having a friends list so I could get ports instead of just clicking on some stone. I liked the days of the EC Tunnel Trading and F'ing HATE Auction Houses. I like to barder and trade and not just click BUY and have shit magically show up in my mailbox. Instances simply suck. I enjoyed the chase to get the bosses in EQ. I miss having people in a dungeon with me other than my group. I miss the fact that your reputation meant everything to you on a server and if you got a bad one you could not play. I miss the fact that only certain classes could solo and NOT every class. I liked the fact in EQ that a Warrior could not solo. I played a Shaman as my frist toon. It took me almost a year to level him up most of which was SOLO. I think I hit 85 with my frist toon in Cata in like 5 days. Pathetic.
I enjoy KSing and despise locked mobs. Sure there are times when it sucked to have someone steal your mobs but that was life and what made EQ what it was. Same goes for trains. Sure zoning into a zone only to be mashed by 30 mobs at the zone line was not fun, but it's part of the game. I miss mobs that run for help. I miss trains. I miss dungeons that are not instanced. I miss camps.
I would love to see a modern EQ done with the pre POP settings. Just update the graphics and be done with it. No fast travel, no auction houses, no instances, smart AI, realistic character traits etc.
End game raiding in wow has been a snob fest since the first update that added more raids other than MC.
The nostalgic part of me agrees 100%. I remember how "hard core" EQ was in its day, especially with the severe death penalties. You really cared back then about being careful and not dying. I remember having to wait around for 4 hours once while another guild helped us get back into PoF after a total raid wipeout.
The business side of me disagrees 100%. What you're asking for is a hard core MMO, and that only appeals to a small subset of the masses. Before the masses had options, they were forced to play hard core regardless of whether they liked it or not. But now with so many options out there, most players seem to prefer the less harsh MMO's that are abundantly available.
What's interesting is going back to EQ, having played newer MMO's. After a day or three, the nostalgia wears off, and I find myself uninstalling it (or DAoC for that matter, which for the record was my favorite MMO of all time). Maybe its my tastes that have changed... <shrug>
Yes but with the new Gear Scores it's even worse. Not just for raiding. Not to mention the achievements page which people want you to have all the latest and greatest achievements. They were meant for pride I suppose but now they are looked at for recruitment. Thus you could be a really good player but not get a second look because you are new to the game or took a lot of time off.
Mobs did not follow you if you zoned which is absolutely unrealistic. That is not what I call smart AI. You want trains? Zoning is an easy way out of this and should not be in the game if we want to avoid griefing. If you really wanna be hardcore, make it so that mobs never deaggro unless you or it dies! Mobs should follow you even if you zoned otherwise it is too "cookie cutter" sorry.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
damn I was going to really rip into the OP if he meant UI.
EQ has an awful UI.
AI wise er don't think it's any different except mobs chased you right across the zone in EQ. But there was stuff like bashing and summoning though.
Oh also roll on SoE fanfaire- find out more news on whether EQ: Next is going to exist or not.
It's funny though because things like "hardcore" are all relative. I remember in the heyday of EQ, it was regarded as a "carebear" kind of MMO and compared to big MMO preceding it (UO), it was. EQ didn't have open-PvP, and you couldn't lose any of your stuff if you died provided you made it to your corpse (which usually wasn't that difficult).
But nowadays in the era of extremely mild death penalties and easily escapable MOBs...EQ is hardcore. And I think this is what a lot of old-school gamers are afraid of. Will later games shift even further from what "hardcore" is regarded as now so that we look back at WoW and say how "hardcore" that game was? It's getting kind of ridiculous.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
More of this would be great. But this is just nostalgia.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
The smart UI in the title pulled me into this thread.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
There is a lot of truth to that. Whatever evolution is happening in MMORPGs the one thing we can be sure of is that they are becoming easier. If someone doesn't like the word "easier" then replace it with some other appropriate word but you get the general idea.
I've seen this change right here on these forums in the way people regard me. When I first started posting here people called me a casual, easy-mode, etc. player. Now people call me a hardcore masochist. It's really strange to be standing on one side of the fence with the more casual crowd and then have the fence moved so that I end up on the side with the hardcore crowd. I didn't move, the dividing line between hardcore and casual moved.
I entered this thread thinking there was some custom UI for EQ I didnt know about.