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Is dungeon finder really the problem?

Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

A lot of people believe that dungeon finder has been the death of community in a lot of MMORPGs.  They argue that dungeon finder has changed the dungeoning experience from being a social, tactical, and enjoyable experience to one that is just a speed-grinding treadmill where the only time anyone talks is to insult their group mates.  And I do not deny at all that this is the state of many MMORPGs that have dungeon finder (WoW).  I also agree that dungeon finder contributes to this issue by providing jerks anonymity.

But I ask this, is dungeon finder the problem, or is the problem that dungeons have become just too easy?  Currently, most dungeons can be easily rolled through if each player knows the basics of how to play their class.  Very little to no coordination is required, and this really gets rid of the need for players to talk at all.  As such, most players take the path of least resistence and just plough through dungeons like silent zombies.  I feel that this, not dungeon finder, is the main issue with dungeons and the deterioratin of the community.

In the old EQ days, running through a dungeon without communicating would have never worked.  The fights were just too difficult, each player not only had to perform their role, but they had to perform it in a way that benefited the team.  I think if they had dungeon finder in EQ, the community wouldn't be nearly as bad.  Even jerks will be nice when they need to do so in order to succeed.

Thoughts?

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Comments

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,470Member Uncommon

    It's a symptom of the must have it now community.  Don't like random numbers->badges, get enough badges->gear, now I need to make lots of 15 minutes of less instances run but I can't get a group -> Dungeon Finder.

  • ariestearieste toronto, ONPosts: 3,308Member Common

    Dungeon Finder is not the problem that kills communities.

    Dungeon Finder is a solution implemented in games where communities are dead or don't exist, because if they did exist, dungeon finder wouldn't have been needed.

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  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    In the old EQ days, running through a dungeon without communicating would have never worked.  The fights were just too difficult, each player not only had to perform their role, but they had to perform it in a way that benefited the team.  I think if they had dungeon finder in EQ, the community wouldn't be nearly as bad.  Even jerks will be nice when they need to do so in order to succeed.

    Thoughts?

    its not really about the difficulty of the dungeon

     

    with dungeon finder,

    you join up w strangers for 20-30 minutes then disband to probably never see those people again

     

    in everquest, id often be in the same group of people for HOURS

    and they were always from my same server -- so I would probably see them again even if the adventure lasted 1 hour

     

    there was nothing challenging about Lost Dungeons of Norrath -- when EQ had cookie cutter instances

  • cali59cali59 B, NYPosts: 1,634Member

    When you have people running dungeons they don't care about or don't need loot from every day in order to get some badges, then it's a chore.  People don't want to do daily chores, they want to get them over with.

    I don't long for the return of contested dungeons and camping one spot, but I do believe you need downtime to talk.  If there's no downtime, then you spend the whole time chasing after the tank.

    Dungeon finder adds an extra disincentive to talk because if the people aren't even on your server and you're never going to see them again then what's the point.

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  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,309Member Uncommon

    It seems to me that the dungeon finder was designed to fix a problem.  Grouping.

    Even on these boards you can see well one really long consolidated thread talking about how to encourange more grouping.  People talk about more xp, more loot...

    I have always contended that grouping has this.  Groups get more xp per mob than solo because they can take tougher mobs, they get more loot and and more coin.  Therefore all the rewards are for grouping

    People counter that by saying no, questing gets more.  Well guess what, groups can run quests - therefore they still get the quest rewards and can take the harder mobs.  Heck even in WoW they have the quest givers right at the dungeons for the groups to grab.

    But despite these perks many still don't group?  Why?  Because it's a pain in the ass.  Forming a group, waiting for everyone to decide on a task, get there then fight.  Serious waste of my entertainment time.

    So how do you eliminate the tedium of finding the group.  Most games have an LfG channgel, of social pane - that doesn't seem to do it.

    Bingo - dungeon finder

    Now people get groups bascially whenever they want.

    And now people complain about that.

    The problem is not the dungeon finder, the problem is the same issue it has always been - finding groups are a pain in the ass.  Dungeon finder didn't eliminate or IMO encourange the jerks, bad players out there, they were always there which is one reason why pug groups have usually ended up sucking so bad.  Dungeon finder just eliminated the pain of getting a group.

    The problems with groups are still there - the people are the problem.

    Venge

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    It seems to me that the dungeon finder was designed to fix a problem.  Grouping.

    Even on these boards you can see well one really long consolidated thread talking about how to encourange more grouping.  People talk about more xp, more loot...

    I have always contended that grouping has this.  Groups get more xp per mob than solo because they can take tougher mobs, they get more loot and and more coin.  Therefore all the rewards are for grouping

    People counter that by saying no, questing gets more.  Well guess what, groups can run quests - therefore they still get the quest rewards and can take the harder mobs.  Heck even in WoW they have the quest givers right at the dungeons for the groups to grab.

    But despite these perks many still don't group?  Why?  Because it's a pain in the ass.  Forming a group, waiting for everyone to decide on a task, get there then fight.  Serious waste of my entertainment time.

    So how do you eliminate the tedium of finding the group.  Most games have an LfG channgel, of social pane - that doesn't seem to do it.

    Bingo - dungeon finder

    Now people get groups bascially whenever they want.

    And now people complain about that.

    The problem is not the dungeon finder, the problem is the same issue it has always been - finding groups are a pain in the ass.  Dungeon finder didn't eliminate or IMO encourange the jerks, bad players out there, they were always there which is one reason why pug groups have usually ended up sucking so bad.  Dungeon finder just eliminated the pain of getting a group.

    The problems with groups are still there - the people are the problem.

    Venge

    Yeah this is kind of what I'm getting at.  I like the idea of dungeon finder because I typically don't have enough time to find a PUG group, walk to the dungeon, pray that no one leaves and go through the dungeon.  Dungeon finder actually makes dungeons accessible to people like me that maybe can't play for 5 hours in a row.

    At the same time though, I don't enjoy the fact that dungeons have become so ridiculously easy that you can just blaze through them without even really paying attention.

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  • PalebanePalebane Tucson, AZPosts: 3,225Member

    In my opinion, the communities of most online RPGs became stale and unresponsive long long before the streamlined LFG tool that is the Dungeon Finder. I'm not sure if the developers were just giving players what they asked for or if they were able to brainwash the players into the type of self-gratifying gameplay that is so prevalent today. Hopefully a game can come out and figure out a way to get players to give a shit about people other than themselves again.

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  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common

    Originally posted by cali59

    Dungeon finder adds an extra disincentive to talk because if the people aren't even on your server and you're never going to see them again then what's the point.

    this is exactly why I find Dungeon finder alienating

     

    if dungeon finder could be used for the same server -- I wouldnt have any issues

  • NeverdyneNeverdyne Guatemala CityPosts: 167Member

    The biggest flaw of the dungeon finder is not that it kills community, but rather it makes the game diminish into a lobby in which you stand there doing nothing, chatting away the time,  while you wait for the queue to pop. The world outside the main city walls becomes an empty place reserved solely for those first few weeks when you're leveling up. Couple that with flying mounts, and the world outside city walls suddenly becomes a barren place.  

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,978Member Uncommon

    I was originally opposed to the dungeon finder but after experiencing Cataclysm and most recently Rift, I've seen how lifeless modern MMO end game has become and it is really just a tool that rose up to help players get past the frustrating boredom they face.

    The game's are designed all wrong, and therefore DF is the best solution to the problem.  So no harm, no foul in these situations.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
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  • Johnie-MarzJohnie-Marz La Puente, CAPosts: 865Member

    Originally posted by Nadia

    Originally posted by cali59



    Dungeon finder adds an extra disincentive to talk because if the people aren't even on your server and you're never going to see them again then what's the point.

    this is exactly why I find Dungeon finder alienating

     

    if dungeon finder could be used for the same server -- I wouldnt have any issues

     One problem gets solved and another pops up. I know in WoW they are talking abut cross server dungeon groups. They already impemented a cross server friends list.

    The purpose of this up coming feature is so if you have friends on a different server you can group with them. But every now and then you find a group of people you like. The dungeon is fun because everyone is getting a long and making jokes and having a good time (I have had this expirience leveling more than in the lvl 85 dungeons)

     

    As a result you could put them on your friends list and then do dungeons with them even though they are on a different server.

     

    But the new problem is that in order to put them on your friends list when you are on a different server you have to give them your e-mail address. This is a problem, giving a stranger your e-mail adress doesn't appeal to some people.

     

    Anyway, the ability to do cross server dungeon groups hasn't been implemented yet, but it will be interesting to see if people in dungeons make friends again, once it is.

  • GemmaGemma Omaha, NEPosts: 337Member

    Dungeon Finder is what made WoW fun again for me. For raids and pvp, I have a guild that I'm friends with. But when they are not on and I just want to get into a dungeon, its soooo nice not to have to sit around in one of the major cities and yell "HEALZ LFG FOR XXX".

    So is dungeon finder a problem? I say not at all. Some people want to be loners and will obviously use the dungeon finder exclusively, which is not a bad thing, its just the way they like to play.

    IMHO, guilds are the core of the game. With all of the new features added with Cataclysm, guilds are now more important than ever.

  • kostoslavkostoslav somborPosts: 459Member

    There is a big chance u ll end up with a group of morons, that will ruin your experiance. I play games to enjoy them but LFG made my game experiance in WoW beyond terrible. I have encoutered so many ass#$%s, morons, idiots, elitist  jerks, "experts" and god know what else. 

    If he stays I go...

    If u cant regenerate mana faster then dont heal...

    Ok, i m expert my guild finished IC, all listen to me, or else I go(i mean who havent finish IC)

    Sorry I have to go, my dad needs a computer ( need to do homework, lunch is done, have to go to sleep, have to go to school, dinner is over ma' made pizza...mmmm, and so on)

    Tank noob, healer noob, mage noob,...

    sorry your gs is to low, kick him or I go, my ultra giga mega gear is expencive to be repaired.(then he/she links its gear...)

    and so on...

  • GemmaGemma Omaha, NEPosts: 337Member

    Originally posted by kostoslav

    There is a big chance u ll end up with a group of morons, that will ruin your experiance. I play games to enjoy them but LFG made my game experiance in WoW beyond terrible. I have encoutered so many ass#$%s, morons, idiots, elitist  jerks, "experts" and god know what else. 

    If he stays I go...

    If u cant regenerate mana faster then dont heal...

    Ok, i m expert my guild finished IC, all listen to me, or else I go(i mean u havent finish IC)

    Sorry I have to go, my dad needs a computer ( need to do homework, lunch is done, have to go to sleep, have to go to school, dinner is over ma' made pizza...mmmm, and so on)

    Tank noob, healer noob, mage noob,...

    sorry your gs is to low, kick him or I go, my ultra giga mega gear is expencive to be repaired.(then he/she links its gear...)

    and so on...

    This is no different then spamming the LFG channel for a group. With the sheer number of players in these games, you don't know if it will be a good group unless they have an established reputation or you've grouped with them before. DF just makes it quicker.

  • Johnie-MarzJohnie-Marz La Puente, CAPosts: 865Member

    Originally posted by kostoslav

    There is a big chance u ll end up with a group of morons, that will ruin your experiance. I play games to enjoy them but LFG made my game experiance in WoW beyond terrible. I have encoutered so many ass#$%s, morons, idiots, elitist  jerks, "experts" and god know what else. 

    If he stays I go...

    If u cant regenerate mana faster then dont heal...

    Ok, i m expert my guild finished IC, all listen to me, or else I go(i mean who havent finish IC)

    Sorry I have to go, my dad needs a computer ( need to do homework, lunch is done, have to go to sleep, have to go to school, dinner is over ma' made pizza...mmmm, and so on)

    Tank noob, healer noob, mage noob,...

    sorry your gs is to low, kick him or I go, my ultra giga mega gear is expencive to be repaired.(then he/she links its gear...)

    and so on...

     Don't forget the "Tank" that doesn't wait for the healer to get mana, (Or in a couple cases, doesn't even wait for the healer to rez a dead player) before moving on to the next set of mobs...Then blames the healer when he dies.

     

    (I still enjoy it better than trying to get a group by watching trade chat for hours)

  • SanguinelustSanguinelust Plainfield, NJPosts: 801Member Uncommon

    Dungeon finder is not a problem, it's really a great tool. Now I don't have to sit in a city watching gold spam and people talking about nothing at all. If I do happen to see someone needing more I'll usually join that but I'd much rather queue up and wait.

  • deniterdeniter LappeenrantaPosts: 802Member Uncommon

    Content becomes too easy ---> You can skip most of the dungeons ---> Those dungeons become deserted ---> Dungeon Finder.

    This is how I see it. So, a dungeon finder is not the problem, but a desperate try to fix what broke down when devs make their game easier.

    LFG tool is handy if there's no x-realm grouping or insta teleporting; LFD tool is not, since it makes an MMO a lobby based action game.

  • SuperXero89SuperXero89 Amory, MSPosts: 2,544Member Uncommon

    The fact that the dungeon finder (implemented the way a dungeon finder should be) is only on World of Warcraft really doesn't speak well for gauging how it affects the community.  WoW was notorious for its awful community even before Burning Crusade was released -- a fact which people seem to easily forget.  The problem is that Blizzard has simply given an already rotten community even more tools to be even more rotten.  Personally, I feel that such issues are often overstated, as the worst problems I have are rude group-mates and players who run through the instance having no idea what they're doing, which again, are all issues that WoW was always notorious for.  Another issue is the prevalence of players who leave the group after the first wipe.  It's annoying, but I can't say it matters too much given how quickly a replacement is found.  If a member were to drop the party in a game without the dungeon finder, that would, in all likelihood signal the end fo the group.  Even so, Who is to say a game like Rift, Everquest II, or LoTRO would have the same problems as they have much more mature communities?

    Additionally, as I said once before, it's not the heroic runs that build communities nor is it the grind to the level cap -- a process largely done without interacting with other players.  Whether you agree with this analysis or not, players in WoW and games like it largely see all parts of the game aside from the endgame to be mere practice for the "good stuff."  Raiding is when you join a guild or a PUG with 9 or 24 other players, and you make an impression on them based on your performance.  If you continuously do well, expect to be invited to more raids.  The officers and such will grow to depend on you, and they will recommend you to their friends, and you'll gain a reputation and an attachment to the server as you progress through the endgame contennt.  In that sense, I find it silly to say the dungeon finder ruins the community. 

    Another issue is that players clame the dungeon finder turns games into lobby based online RPGs.  Well, I know I personally quest while queued for a dungeon (before I hit the level cap), and all my friends do the same.  Granted, I don't see a truckload of players in the zones that I go through, but then again, I never did anyway.  WoW is an old game.  Most players have at least one toon at the level cap and have had it there for quite some time, so I think it's understandable why they don't want to run the same solo quests over and over again.  At least running dungeons prepares players for how to operate their class in a group and raid environment.  What it really boils down to is the fact that a lot of players just don't find the questing all that fun, so why should they be forced into conforming to a specific gaming style if they enjoy running dungeons more?  Dungeon running shouldn't affect the "solo" questing of another player, so why can't people be allowed to play the game how they want to play it?

    Secondly, the reason a dungeon finder is needed, and the reason I liked WoTLK so much more than Cataclysm is simply because games like Rift and WoW force players to run these dungeons over and over and over and over in order to purchase the gear that they need.  It's a bad design philosphy.  I should not have to run the same set of dungeons five times a day for weeks just to get enough gear so that I can begin raiding.  The first couple of times are fun while I'm learning the fight mechanics for the bosses, but after that, it's just mindless repetition and annoyance.  When it gets to the point of mindless repetition, I'm sorry, but I'm not interested in taking two hours to run a dungeon.  I'm not interested in kiting, I'm not interested in crowd control.  I just want the tank to grab a truckload of enemies so that we DPS classes can burn them down.  The dungeon finder simply speeds up the dungeon running process.  That's why I thought WoTLK worked.  WoTLK felt like the devs actually admitted to the fact that WoW was just a giant gear treadmill and that they had accomodated for it.  Cataclysm heroics are an absolute mess as even now, 6 months after release, I'm constantly in fail group after fail group with people who simply don't understand the fight mechanics.  Of course, I don't blame them really.  Blizzard has designed World of Warcraft to be nearly unplayable without visiting outside websites to learn fight mechanics.  In the end, I suppose that just makes them bad players, but I don't care.  I just want my valor points and boss drops, so that I can start raiding again. 

    TL;DR version: The dungeon finder does not destroy communities because the one game in which it is implemented properly already had a reportedly awful community.  The dungeon finder is needed only because games like WoW fascilate this need with their endless treadmill gear grind of repetition, and the community of WoW and games like it is more affected by the age of its average playerbase and by the fact that players rarely, if ever, have little reason to interact with one another while undergoing the leveling process.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,697Member Uncommon

    The only thing wrong with dungeon finder is the inability to befriend/guild/interact with the players after the dungeon.

    Apart from that, it's probably the best feature a group-based game can have.  Seriously.

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  • PalebanePalebane Tucson, AZPosts: 3,225Member

    How long do you think it will be before WoW has NPC tanks and healers for all the DPS that are tired of waiting over thirty minutes for a group using the Dungeon Finder tool?

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  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,309Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Palebane

    How long do you think it will be before WoW has NPC tanks and healers for all the DPS that are tired of waiting over thirty minutes for a group using the Dungeon Finder tool?

     You may laugh but I'd be seriously all over that.  EQ has the mercs and I love them.

    Venge

    edit - maybe thats just me but I have very limited time and really am not the most patient person.  I hate being delayed by people or things when IMO there reallyl is no good reason for the dely.  No that is not an instant gratification syndrome.  I work damn hard for what I have and I put in the time.

    But

    I don't want to have to wait for someone else to get their slow rear into gear before I can start doing the things I want to do, or need to do.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • VahraneVahrane Alpharetta, GAPosts: 375Member

    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Originally posted by Palebane

    How long do you think it will be before WoW has NPC tanks and healers for all the DPS that are tired of waiting over thirty minutes for a group using the Dungeon Finder tool?

     You may laugh but I'd be seriously all over that.  EQ has the mercs and I love them.

    Venge

    edit - maybe thats just me but I have very limited time and really am not the most patient person.  I hate being delayed by people or things when IMO there reallyl is no good reason for the dely.  No that is not an instant gratification syndrome.  I work damn hard for what I have and I put in the time.

    But

    I don't want to have to wait for someone else to get their slow rear into gear before I can start doing the things I want to do, or need to do.

         I'm sure we all get tired of waiting on others at times but this kind of attitude is the driving force behind MMOG's becoming massively online single player games! Sad but true.

  • SlyGamer79SlyGamer79 siesta key, FLPosts: 278Member

    Well if they had NPC's that would fill in groups so you can do dungeons and raids that would make it a life saver however the raids could be interesting i mean would npc's know how to react in a raid and for that matter how would loot roles go with players vs npcs in a group/raid ? lol

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  • FastTxFastTx PTBO, ONPosts: 756Member

    Originally posted by Palebane

    How long do you think it will be before WoW has NPC tanks and healers for all the DPS that are tired of waiting over thirty minutes for a group using the Dungeon Finder tool?

    Probably by the next expansion. It seems right now a DPS levels fastest if he can queue with a tank in the DF.

  • gainesvilleggainesvilleg Gainesville, FLPosts: 1,053Member

    Originally posted by SlyGamer79

    Well if they had NPC's that would fill in groups so you can do dungeons and raids that would make it a life saver however the raids could be interesting i mean would npc's know how to react in a raid and for that matter how would loot roles go with players vs npcs in a group/raid ? lol

     NPC loot ninjas???  LOL...

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