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pay to win epidemic

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  • TalinTalin West Babylon, NYPosts: 824Member

    If someone wants to buy themself the best items they can acquire with real money, in a non-competitive environment (such a LotRO), why is that such a bad thing?

    People who condem this line of thought are unable to accept an alternate way of advancement. Perhaps some individuals are into the experience of the content, not about item drops or comparable, so they are willing to pay for the convenience factor. I'm sure at least some of these people want to enhance their ability to play solo. In either case, I don't see this as such a bad thing.

    As long as content does not require players to purchase these items to be successful, it is merely a convenience for those who wish to pay for it.

  • timeraidertimeraider BredaPosts: 568Member Uncommon

    ah well..every mmorpg...when theres any change..whine..every change thye make in an game is bad..why u think games get abbandoned after time? not becuz they rlly go bad..yust becuz people think its goes bad.

     

    /vote for lotro

    Main games: Heroes of the Storm, Starcraft 2, Brawlhalla
    Waiting for: Overwatch

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,641Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Talin

    If someone wants to buy themself the best items they can acquire with real money, in a non-competitive environment (such a LotRO), why is that such a bad thing?

    People who condem this line of thought are unable to accept an alternate way of advancement. Perhaps some individuals are into the experience of the content, not about item drops or comparable, so they are willing to pay for the convenience factor. I'm sure at least some of these people want to enhance their ability to play solo. In either case, I don't see this as such a bad thing.

    As long as content does not require players to purchase these items to be successful, it is merely a convenience for those who wish to pay for it.

    Agreed.  If LotRO was a PvP game then i could probably see the concern, but as long as the actions and access of one player have very little effect on the actions and access of another, let people skittle it up for as mch as they want to spend to do so.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,452Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Talin

    As long as content does not require players to purchase these items to be successful, it is merely a convenience for those who wish to pay for it.

    I would say that

    A, there is nothing in this game that requires anything in the store. and B, (which I've said before) the few items that seem a bit more efficacious such as those legendary items that have two extra slots, can be purchased with Turbine points which are earned in game.

    Oh, it's tacky in my opinion but if players are patient and they want these things they can get them by just playing the game. If players are paying a sub then they get a monthly allotment of points.

    All this store really does (so far) is make it attractive to pay a monthly sub.

  • erictlewiserictlewis Cottondale, ALPosts: 3,026Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Nemorsa

    Originally posted by Wharg0ul

    Oh stop. these people make plenty of money without milking players for more with cash shops.

    It boils down to greed, plain and simple. A decent profit isn't enough for these guys.

    That's why I vote with my wallet. LOTRO lost my sub as soon as the F2P model was announced, and they will never get another penny from me.

    I would rather support devs who make games for gamers, rather than devs who make games for corporate cash pigs.

    The reason why a company like Turbine switches from a subscription service to a cash shop service is because continuing with only a subscription model is not viable in the long run, and could possibly lose the company money. They took a gamble with Dungeons and Dragons Online and it worked. Possibly Lord of the Rings Online was less of a gamble, but it was in the same situation, therefore a change was needed if Turbine wanted to keep the game running and making money. They are a company, like all companies they need to make money. What is the point of doing anything for the players if they aren't making money on it? In fact, they are doing it for the players, so they can keep the game running so we can keep playing. If that's greed than every company is greedy, because what's the point of having one if you are not making money? If you quit playing when they announced the switch to free to play, than of course they didn't do it for you, they did it for the people who love the game and are glad that it's surviving.

     Actually no they did not do it for the folks who loved the game.  I know a lot of vip's life timers as we were once called who gave up on the game after it went free to play.   All I continue seeing is more revamps to the lower level areas in order to keep the free to play guy playing.  Examples were the the reworks of the starting areas for all races, revamp of bree and lonlands, now the revamp to evendim.  Sacrificing you vet base for the new guy.  Hoping folks continue to fund them via the store, as they sure were not funding them via a subscription.

    Lotro now is a former shade of itself.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,641Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by erictlewis

    Originally posted by Nemorsa


    Originally posted by Wharg0ul

    Oh stop. these people make plenty of money without milking players for more with cash shops.

    It boils down to greed, plain and simple. A decent profit isn't enough for these guys.

    That's why I vote with my wallet. LOTRO lost my sub as soon as the F2P model was announced, and they will never get another penny from me.

    I would rather support devs who make games for gamers, rather than devs who make games for corporate cash pigs.

    The reason why a company like Turbine switches from a subscription service to a cash shop service is because continuing with only a subscription model is not viable in the long run, and could possibly lose the company money. They took a gamble with Dungeons and Dragons Online and it worked. Possibly Lord of the Rings Online was less of a gamble, but it was in the same situation, therefore a change was needed if Turbine wanted to keep the game running and making money. They are a company, like all companies they need to make money. What is the point of doing anything for the players if they aren't making money on it? In fact, they are doing it for the players, so they can keep the game running so we can keep playing. If that's greed than every company is greedy, because what's the point of having one if you are not making money? If you quit playing when they announced the switch to free to play, than of course they didn't do it for you, they did it for the people who love the game and are glad that it's surviving.

     Actually no they did not do it for the folks who loved the game.  I know a lot of vip's life timers as we were once called who gave up on the game after it went free to play.   All I continue seeing is more revamps to the lower level areas in order to keep the free to play guy playing.  Examples were the the reworks of the starting areas for all races, revamp of bree and lonlands, now the revamp to evendim.  Sacrificing you vet base for the new guy.  Hoping folks continue to fund them via the store, as they sure were not funding them via a subscription.

    Lotro now is a former shade of itself.

    It sounds like they loved having something over other people and didn't necessarily love the game because, as you stated, the F2P change didn't alter anything about the veteran gameplay, just the new player area. That being the case, you still haven't presented an argument as to how the change was not for the folks that lvoe the game. The change gave them more people to play with, more options in how they pay for their gaming and even a FREE option if they wanted to keep playing but did not have the ability to continue paying a monthly fee for it, and  additional features they can opt to buy which is something that people who are really into their hobby or leisure activity often wish to do.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • erictlewiserictlewis Cottondale, ALPosts: 3,026Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by erictlewis

    Originally posted by Nemorsa

    Originally posted by Wharg0ul

    Oh stop. these people make plenty of money without milking players for more with cash shops.

    It boils down to greed, plain and simple. A decent profit isn't enough for these guys.

    That's why I vote with my wallet. LOTRO lost my sub as soon as the F2P model was announced, and they will never get another penny from me.

    I would rather support devs who make games for gamers, rather than devs who make games for corporate cash pigs.

    The reason why a company like Turbine switches from a subscription service to a cash shop service is because continuing with only a subscription model is not viable in the long run, and could possibly lose the company money. They took a gamble with Dungeons and Dragons Online and it worked. Possibly Lord of the Rings Online was less of a gamble, but it was in the same situation, therefore a change was needed if Turbine wanted to keep the game running and making money. They are a company, like all companies they need to make money. What is the point of doing anything for the players if they aren't making money on it? In fact, they are doing it for the players, so they can keep the game running so we can keep playing. If that's greed than every company is greedy, because what's the point of having one if you are not making money? If you quit playing when they announced the switch to free to play, than of course they didn't do it for you, they did it for the people who love the game and are glad that it's surviving.

     Actually no they did not do it for the folks who loved the game.  I know a lot of vip's life timers as we were once called who gave up on the game after it went free to play.   All I continue seeing is more revamps to the lower level areas in order to keep the free to play guy playing.  Examples were the the reworks of the starting areas for all races, revamp of bree and lonlands, now the revamp to evendim.  Sacrificing you vet base for the new guy.  Hoping folks continue to fund them via the store, as they sure were not funding them via a subscription.

    Lotro now is a former shade of itself.

    It sounds like they loved having something over other people and didn't necessarily love the game because, as you stated, the F2P change didn't alter anything about the veteran gameplay, just the new player area. That being the case, you still haven't presented an argument as to how the change was not for the folks that lvoe the game. The change gave them more people to play with, more options in how they pay for their gaming and even a FREE option if they wanted to keep playing but did not have the ability to continue paying a monthly fee for it, and  additional features they can opt to buy which is something that people who are really into their hobby or leisure activity often wish to do.

     There has been nothing as far as gameplay created for those of us who have yes all there alts at 65.  Endalwaith was a joke.  Yes we got a couple of books.   Other than that the game is stangnant at level cap, unless you enjoy running the same thing over and over and over.   The last real xpac we got was som and it was a joke.  The next xpac 2 years after the fact might be in december.  Meanwhile all the action is down at the lower level areas.

    There has been several threads lately on the lotro forums basicly stating the fact taht the difference between vip/free to play has become slim to none.  There was a thread that went that way and somebody use the fanboy comment and called the guy a turbine employee that got that thread closed.

    I guess it is all a matter of prespective.

  • Wharg0ulWharg0ul Colorado Springs, COPosts: 4,183Member

    Originally posted by Wraithone

    Originally posted by Wharg0ul

    Oh stop. these people make plenty of money without milking players for more with cash shops.

    It boils down to greed, plain and simple. A decent profit isn't enough for these guys.

    That's why I vote with my wallet. LOTRO lost my sub as soon as the F2P model was announced, and they will never get another penny from me.

    I would rather support devs who make games for gamers, rather than devs who make games for corporate cash pigs.

     

    I hate to break it to you, but the *vast* majority of Dev's and their companies are in this for the money.  Those who aren't, are not going to get very far.  So, what is this "greed" you speak of? Thats entirely subjective. As is "decent profit".  You are more than welcome to your opinion, and everyone should only play games they enjoy.  But lets not forget that these games cost a LOT of money to make.  There Is No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

     yeah, OK, in it to make a profit.

    There's a BIG difference between making a nice profit on a good game, and letting yourself get overcome with greed.

    there are PLENTY of MMORPGs out there who are still going after many years, and have not sold out to the F2P fad. They're still making money.

    And what is this free lunch you speak of? I think a $15 per month subscription fee, paid each month over the course of years MORE than pays for my "lunch", TYVFM.

    Oh, and let's not forget the expansions we paid for. And the initial client purchase.

    These people make PLENTY of money. don't kid yourself, and stop making excuses for GREEDY corporations who shit on their loyal customers.

    Just ask SOE how that worked out for them.

    image

  • samuraislyr4samuraislyr4 san jose, CAPosts: 72Member

    There are a lot of odd responses to this F2P thing..

    1) Some think because it is called F2P then they should not pay a dime for anything.

    I think if this were the case then every game ever made would be free (this would be wonderful but a hopeless dream) but this point is not what this thread is about.

    2) the in game store is pay to win

    I really wonder about this one...pay to win what exactly? LOTRO stats hardly mattter, so a guy wants to pay some money to up his stats by a few points so what? You don't have to, you can earn it in game like everyone else.

    Now when players start requiring stat tomes and stuff then it will be bad, but I haven't seen this so it doesn't much matter to me what others want to pay.

    The game allows one to get from 1-65 in the same time as anyone else unless they pay for XP boosts which are really unneccesary anyway. You might have to pay for content (but is that so bad?)  or subscribe and get some bonuses.

    It's nice to be able to step away from the game economy and use some of those 500 points a month I get to buy some extra potions or something when I need em (rarely but still nice to have the option).

    I have never HAD to buy anything off the store to play the game, only what I wanted to make things cheaper or easier on myself, that's it.

  • crazynannycrazynanny PopowoPosts: 173Member


    Originally posted by Sovrath

    This is silly.
    Though I will go on record as saying i have a litany of criticisms toward the game and that I think how they implemented the store is tacky, there are no game breaking, power buying "you must purchase with cash" items.
    I had a few points so I got a morale potion. used it. It was good. But wasn't so ground breaking that I ever bought it again. And if players do want to get them the you can use your turbine points and not spend a dime.
    Every player gets Turbine points. So just use them. You get them for playing the game or if you subscribe then you get an allotment each month.
    Which means that over the course of play you will get enough points to spend in the "store" without ever paying a dime.
    And calling people "fanboys" doesn't support your argument. If anything it weakens it.
    You don't have to "pay" or get 2nd rate anything. One can make their way through the game and never open the store. I agree that adding legendary items with extra slots that are "only in the store" is suspect at first glance but as I said you get points anyways so use them on that if that's your thing.
    The real shame is that they aren't available directly in game and one has to turn to a somewhat artificial vendor to get them.


    And where did I said those items are game breaking? I even stated those aren't big, but when You add all of them...

    Again it's been only 7 months and already cash shop offer is highly debatable for being called fluff. Either way those "convenience" items just make my experience 2nd rate despite I subscribe. Some people like You don't care and some like I do. Calling that silly is not really better than calling all nitpicking at "pay to win" term fanboyism, touche ;)

    You say I get points and that's fine, the thing is again subscription and so called hybrid model Turbine promised and stated. So I pay monthly and yet to get full experience I have to fork out extra cash or grind like in Your every F2P game. After all TP not differs that much from in game currency/items You sell in other F2P for cash shop items. So I really don't see any option of not spending a dime that wouldn't give me 2nd rate experience if I want to fully enjoy game in every aspect.

    In P2P model I'm free to fully experience game without paying extra for quite useful in game items. In F2P I'm not paying monthly sub, and having possibility of having 2nd rate experience or buying cash shop items. Turbine got worse from those two while promising hybrid model with only fluff(for everyone) and content(for freebies) in cash shop.

  • evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAPosts: 1,118Member

    Originally posted by crazynanny

     




    Originally posted by Mouls

    P2W is RoM and Allods

    LI is a boring grind in fact is P2NG(pay to not grind)

    whats is p2w is the debuff removal pots(wich removes 3 debuffs),and the tomes wich are not big deal compared to what you find in others F2P.






    Give em some time, after all store is only what, 7 months old? And You already discuss about selling stats, store exclusive best potions, scrolls. But wait, wasn't LOTRO meant to be hybrid? Aka either You pay as You go or sub? Store Turbine promised was meant to be fluff for subscribers and buyable content for free players.

     

    Bottom line store and it's "pay to win" destroyed the game for me. No not because I win or lose something like fanboys like pick at. But because I either pay or get 2nd rate experience. More grind, worse pots, less stats, worse LI it's all about those tiny things that add together. And I guess it'd be okay if I wasn't already subscribing...

     

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't LoTRO start out as a subscription game?  How can you get more P2W than that?  From what I've ever seen the VIPs (subscription people) have access to pretty much everything except some "fluff".  The extras that the VIPs get aren't necessary to win the game or to be competitive in PvP, etc.

     

    I for one will never understand the people who pay a subscription fee for the privilege of playing a game, especially a game you have to buy just to install.  I prefer the model used by GW, etc.  You pay for the original game (or in some cases, not - like LoTRO) and play.  As you play, you may decide you want to reward the devs for making such a great game so you buy something from the store to enhance your experience.  In the case of GW, you spend the original amount, say $20 - $60 depending on the game and then you can buy things later to cosmetically enhance your experience or get some more storage.  In the most recent version of LoTRO, you dowload the game for free and work your way through it for free.  Then you decide if you want to enhance your experience you can pay for a couple of one time things or decide to pay every month.  With that setup, the players have much more control over the experience they want.  I can't find fault with that idea at all.

     

    If you have that much of and issue with how the game is, maybe you are now bored with it and should maybe cancel your subscription?  Maybe you're to a point where you feel the game isn't worth the monthly fee anymore.  The simple solution would be to stop subscribing and move on to another game or become a premium player and only buy what you think might make the game fun for you again.

     

    As for 2nd rate experience, I am F2P with that game and have seen or played many other P2P games that haven't impressed me as much as LoTRO has (WoW comes to mind right away).  I can't imagine that Turbine would risk alienating their subscribers by forcing them into a worse playing experience than they had before.  I'd be more likely to believe that the subscribers are either finally bored with the game and want to blame it on the F2P change or they are upset they have dished out so much money over the years (exponentially more than if they were P2W originally) only to have Turbine let in a "bunch of noobs who don't take the game seriously enough".

    image

    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  • UW1975UW1975 Kingston, ONPosts: 183Member

    Originally posted by erictlewis

     

        All I continue seeing is more revamps to the lower level areas in order to keep the free to play guy playing.  Examples were the the reworks of the starting areas for all races, revamp of bree and lonlands, now the revamp to evendim. 

    Revamp of old areas? Sure (and thanks God as I'm an altoholic).

    But honestly, they did a new Raid cluster lately, which is indeed real fun and not mindless tank and spank, and comes in two Tier to avoid discouraging the more casual players from doing instances andon the other hand they gratified more Raiding oriented people.

    Before this expac, I thought like you that they won't give us endgamers some love. Seems more is on the way with the next update, so for now I'm very happy.

  • mmoluvammoluva Pittsburg, CAPosts: 310Member

    Originally posted by evolver1972

    Originally posted by crazynanny

     




    Originally posted by Mouls

    P2W is RoM and Allods

    LI is a boring grind in fact is P2NG(pay to not grind)

    whats is p2w is the debuff removal pots(wich removes 3 debuffs),and the tomes wich are not big deal compared to what you find in others F2P.







    Give em some time, after all store is only what, 7 months old? And You already discuss about selling stats, store exclusive best potions, scrolls. But wait, wasn't LOTRO meant to be hybrid? Aka either You pay as You go or sub? Store Turbine promised was meant to be fluff for subscribers and buyable content for free players.

     

    Bottom line store and it's "pay to win" destroyed the game for me. No not because I win or lose something like fanboys like pick at. But because I either pay or get 2nd rate experience. More grind, worse pots, less stats, worse LI it's all about those tiny things that add together. And I guess it'd be okay if I wasn't already subscribing...

     

     

     

    I for one will never understand the people who pay a subscription fee for the privilege of playing a game, especially a game you have to buy just to install. 

     

    This perception will continue to place you in long lines and the world will continue to view you in an unchanging manner.

    Profitable companies can only produce a positive.  Making money is never a negative no matter what these posters continue to type.  Turbine should be commended for doing whatever it takes to stay profitable and continue producing a quality product to its customers.

  • TimukasTimukas TallinnPosts: 693Member

    Originally posted by jeremyjodes

    So how long before an "I Win" button goes up for sale? I played this game before F2P I went back for a short time. It should have died a natural death instead of this F2P crap. sad very sad.

    Agree 100%. Played this game until autumn 2009 and it was going downhill very fast back then already. Prolly it will be like 500 bucks worth of Turbine points to defeat Saruman...

  • timeraidertimeraider BredaPosts: 568Member Uncommon

    probably like 2k TP, equel to 20 euros...normal price for an expansion..but well see

    Main games: Heroes of the Storm, Starcraft 2, Brawlhalla
    Waiting for: Overwatch

  • sibs4455sibs4455 manchesterPosts: 357Member

    As soon as any Game goes P2W then it must be time for any  genuine gamer to move on and find a new game to play.

     

    Fluff itemshops to me are ok for that does not effect gameplay but anyone that has played a P2W mmo knows that know one can compete with P2W players.

    ....

    I will wait for the 'I have never spent a dime crowd to comment'.

    Bla Bla ive never spent a dime but i recieve free items of my guildys, or they play with employees of the game company who recieve free itemshop items without their knowledge. Seen it, been there, never want to go back.

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,592Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by sibs4455

    As soon as any Game goes P2W then it must be time for any  genuine gamer to move on and find a new game to play.

     

    Fluff itemshops to me are ok for that does not effect gameplay but anyone that has played a P2W mmo knows that know one can compete with P2W players.

    ....

    I will wait for the 'I have never spent a dime crowd to comment'.

    Bla Bla ive never spent a dime but i recieve free items of my guildys, or they play with employees of the game company who recieve free itemshop items without their knowledge. Seen it, been there, never want to go back.

     

    I've never had any problem in that regard ^^ If I enjoy a "F2P" game, I always make a point of using the cash shop.  I want the Dev's to profit from their work. Thats the best way to make sure the game stays around.

  • evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAPosts: 1,118Member

    Originally posted by mmoluva

    Originally posted by evolver1972


    Originally posted by crazynanny

     




    Originally posted by Mouls

    P2W is RoM and Allods

    LI is a boring grind in fact is P2NG(pay to not grind)

    whats is p2w is the debuff removal pots(wich removes 3 debuffs),and the tomes wich are not big deal compared to what you find in others F2P.







    Give em some time, after all store is only what, 7 months old? And You already discuss about selling stats, store exclusive best potions, scrolls. But wait, wasn't LOTRO meant to be hybrid? Aka either You pay as You go or sub? Store Turbine promised was meant to be fluff for subscribers and buyable content for free players.

     

    Bottom line store and it's "pay to win" destroyed the game for me. No not because I win or lose something like fanboys like pick at. But because I either pay or get 2nd rate experience. More grind, worse pots, less stats, worse LI it's all about those tiny things that add together. And I guess it'd be okay if I wasn't already subscribing...

     

     

     

    I for one will never understand the people who pay a subscription fee for the privilege of playing a game, especially a game you have to buy just to install. 

     

    This perception will continue to place you in long lines and the world will continue to view you in an unchanging manner.

    Profitable companies can only produce a positive.  Making money is never a negative no matter what these posters continue to type.  Turbine should be commended for doing whatever it takes to stay profitable and continue producing a quality product to its customers.

    Huh?  I'm not sure what long lines you're talking about and I couldn't care less what the world thinks of me anyway.

     

    I don't have a problem with companies trying to make money.  That is the point of starting and running a company.  I don't have a problem with companies offering subscription fees to play their games.  I just don't understand the mentality of someone who would pay for those games over and over again to do something they would only have to pay once for and get close to (or the same) experience.

     

    Another point of mine is that it has been shown over and over that a company can be profitable by making a game you don't have to pay a subscription for.  Arenanet has done that.  Turbine is showing they can do it also.  In fact, I would say that it looks as if the subscription fee model it beginning to go away.

     

    Again, though, I don't care if a company wants to charge a sub fee to play their game.  I decide that I won't play it because of that.  I don't understand the people who do decide to pay the subscription fee.  That's my opinion because I think it's kind of odd that people would be willing to throw away their hard earned money that way.

    image

    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  • Master10KMaster10K LondonPosts: 3,065Member

    I don't get this notion of people calling LOTRO a "Pay to Win" game because what exactly are you winning by paying? The only meaningful things paying players get are extra content and unlocks. There's nothing really gamebreaking there, since it's not as if the paying player has the upperhand in PvP, since free players can't even play LOTRO's garbage PvP. All the F2P thing has done is segregate the player base into; those who have content and those who do not.

     

    I've played LOTRO quite moderately for a few months and have 2 lvl 30+ characters, with enough content to take them both to lvl 50+ and I haven't spent a penny. Sure it's annoying that I can't do all the instances & dungeons my kinship does, fully spec my toons the way I want or hold more then 2 gold. But I don't feel gimped compared to the guy spending the sub, since I can do the content I've got. So the game is not pay to win, since paying doesn't warrent a victory in anything.

    image

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member

    okay here's clarification from someone who Actually plays the game. 

    Legendary items are not purchasable in store. 2nd Age legendary items are obtainable from quests and from rep exchanges with the Lothlorien Elves for example.

    The only things purchasable to enhance your traits (talents) or Legacy Slots (enhancements your legendary items provide you) are POINTS as in attribute points. That is all. Exchanging your legacies that provide mittigation, resistance control, or damage buffs to realms or specific spells must be leveled. That means EVERYone must level a legendary item that has the legacy they want to level 31 then deconstruct it.

    Scrolls that enhance your items such as Delving/damage type enhancements are available from in game rep vendors and this doesn't take long to get Kindred with these factions. These aren't the endlessly impossible to become exalted anytime in the same 5 months type of rep grind you would find in say games like World of Warcraft for example that had to employ tabards to make rep grinding happen in the background it was so bad.

    Armor sets cannot be bought in the store. You must craft, rep or raid for those.

    Finally, the relics available in the store ARE limited, you cannot buy every relic you want in the store. There are a huge number of relics available only through crafting and only through the new combination techniques available in game.

     

    So in summary, no you cannot pay to win, they did get closer with their newest update but you cannot do it with this model. They would have to add ALL of the items, enhancements, legacies, scrolls to the store for it to be pay to win.

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