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Holy Trinity

KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon

We have heard how they plan on breaking the holy trinity by removing the healer, everyone has the ability to rez and heal, there doens't really seem to be a dedicated tank class. But I still wonder if they took out what seems to be another signature of this holy trinity. The existence of aggro specific skills. Not having these would really make combat dynamic and fun imo. It would also be interesting to see how they manage aggro overall in the enemy AI.

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Comments

  • XzenXzen Los Alamos, NMPosts: 2,607Member Common

    Originally posted by Kuppa

    We have heard how they plan on breaking the holy trinity by removing the healer, everyone has the ability to rez and heal, there doens't really seem to be a dedicated tank class. But I still wonder if they took out what seems to be another signature of this holy trinity. The existence of aggro specific skills. Not having these would really make combat dynamic and fun imo. It would also be interesting to see how they manage aggro overall in the enemy AI.

    One of the interesting things I have seen would be like the Guardian's ability to control part of the battle field by laying down barriers that enemy mobs can't cross for a limited amount of time etc. Looks really fun and a new take on things.

  • PigozzPigozz CPosts: 842Member

    Originally posted by Kuppa

    We have heard how they plan on breaking the holy trinity by removing the healer, everyone has the ability to rez and heal, there doens't really seem to be a dedicated tank class. But I still wonder if they took out what seems to be another signature of this holy trinity. The existence of aggro specific skills. Not having these would really make combat dynamic and fun imo. It would also be interesting to see how they manage aggro overall in the enemy AI.

    They already stated that there are no aggro generating skills, AI attacks the squishiest players or prolly the most dangerous in the party

    MMOs played chronologically:
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  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Xzen

    Originally posted by Kuppa

    We have heard how they plan on breaking the holy trinity by removing the healer, everyone has the ability to rez and heal, there doens't really seem to be a dedicated tank class. But I still wonder if they took out what seems to be another signature of this holy trinity. The existence of aggro specific skills. Not having these would really make combat dynamic and fun imo. It would also be interesting to see how they manage aggro overall in the enemy AI.

    One of the interesting things I have seen would be like the Guardian's ability to control part of the battle field by laying down barriers that enemy mobs can't cross for a limited amount of time etc. Looks really fun and a new take on things.

    Ya, saw that! looks great. Stuff like that mixes things up a bit and opens the door to many posibilities. It would be nice to have to use other methods, like cripples or barries, to deter an enemy rather than having him focus on a tank :(

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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,772Member Uncommon

    Guild Wars 1 didn't have an aggro system at all, or at least not one analogous to what most other MMORPGs have.  Rather, mobs mainly target whoever they think they can kill the fastest, with a slight bias in favor of attacking a party member that is attacking that particular mob right that second--but damage done 5 seconds ago is irrelevant to this computation.

  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Pigozz

    Originally posted by Kuppa

    We have heard how they plan on breaking the holy trinity by removing the healer, everyone has the ability to rez and heal, there doens't really seem to be a dedicated tank class. But I still wonder if they took out what seems to be another signature of this holy trinity. The existence of aggro specific skills. Not having these would really make combat dynamic and fun imo. It would also be interesting to see how they manage aggro overall in the enemy AI.

    They already stated that there are no aggro generating skills, AI attacks the squishiest players or prolly the most dangerous in the party

    That would be awesome! where did you get that info? I havent gone over all of the content that came out of PAX or maybe I missed it somewhere else.

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  • KhrymsonKhrymson Eorzea, MOPosts: 3,090Member

    I'm looking forward to new ways of playing an MMO.  More action-get-in-there-and-have-fun-now-please!  And I don't really care how many MMOs are turning there backs on dedicated grouping to focus on solo play more.  As long as I'm playing in a persistent world with other players, I get that sense of not being alone. {chatting with random players, showing off your progress, helping others where/when you can}

  • XzenXzen Los Alamos, NMPosts: 2,607Member Common

    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Guild Wars 1 didn't have an aggro system at all, or at least not one analogous to what most other MMORPGs have.  Rather, mobs mainly target whoever they think they can kill the fastest, with a slight bias in favor of attacking a party member that is attacking that particular mob right that second--but damage done 5 seconds ago is irrelevant to this computation.

    Yeah I've been playing back through Guild Wars to unlock some goodies for GW2 (http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/hall-of-monuments/) and have noticed that survival is a mix of healing the crap out of myself and moving around. Unfortunately Guild Wars movement/combat system doesn't lend it's self well to dodging in and out of combat unlike GW2 it seems.

  • VaeniVaeni SaloPosts: 17Member

    Breaking "holy trinity" by making everyone capable of everything isn't really worthy of praise. I understand that it's the GW style of going about it, but it's not some kind of revolution for MMORPG's, quite lame rather.

  • DiovidiusDiovidius GoudaPosts: 1,025Member

    Originally posted by Vaeni

    Breaking "holy trinity" by making everyone capable of everything isn't really worthy of praise. I understand that it's the GW style of going about it, but it's not some kind of revolution for MMORPG's, quite lame rather.

    Everyone is not capable of everything, everyone is capable of every ROLE (role as in Anet's new trinity of roles, control/damage/support where healing is only a small part of support for example). How they accomplish that role is done quite differently by every profession.

  • ThomasN7ThomasN7 87.18.7.148 1, NJPosts: 6,690Member
    What do you man haven't heard their plan. They already have stated a billion times there is no main healer class. That means teamwork and using your brain is important when working together as a group.
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  • UnicornicusUnicornicus San Francisco, CAPosts: 235Member

    Originally posted by Vaeni

    Breaking "holy trinity" by making everyone capable of everything isn't really worthy of praise. I understand that it's the GW style of going about it, but it's not some kind of revolution for MMORPG's, quite lame rather.

    This is basically the number 1 feature of guild wars 2 IMO. I have hated that mechanic since the original EQ and cant wait for them to dash it to the floor. Opinions are all different I guess, but this game doesnt seem like its for you then... It CERTAINLY is for a player like me and as far as dumping that model in a persistant world triple A title, yeah its a new way of thinking about it.

  • djazzydjazzy louisville, COPosts: 3,578Member

    GW didn't have any threat generating skills or a taunt. Neither will GW2.

  • goblagobla somewherePosts: 1,411Member

    I think it's a bit of a shame actually.

    The Monk was the most amazing GW class. It was the only really unique class if you ask me.

    Lots of people point to the mesmer but the mesmer was mostly about reverse barb skills ( skills that damage the affected player if he uses a certain action. ) interrupts, cooldown increases etc. While having an entire class dedicated to this was unique the actual mechanics weren't really that unique.

    The monk on the other hand had some really cool unique mechanics in the protection prayers line. Protective spirit was an amazingly fun and challenging skill to use. Reversal of Fortune was one of the most interesting heals. The condition and hex removal mechanics were interesting and important. Managing your cast times while kiting enemies.

    I loved the GW Monk. There doesn't seem to be any other class remotely like it. And I'm sad that the class seems to be gone in GW2.

    The gaurdian seems to pick up the same theme with Dwayna and holy skills but I doubt it'll be the same. What made the monk fun for me was the way you were the true backbone of your party. Your use of the right skills at the right times while managing your energy was what made the Monk amazing. The true feeling of triage was there. Do you use your time and energy to remove that hex or leave it? In the cast time that party member could also take a big hit and die. Do you spend energy on casting protective spirit, chances are he won't be attacked for a longer period of time and you'll have wasted your energy. I don't see the guardian or any other class making decisions like that.

    I hope some day we'll see a healing class as interactive, dynamic and interesting as the Monk.

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  • romanator0romanator0 Glendora, CAPosts: 2,382Member

    Originally posted by gobla

    I think it's a bit of a shame actually.

    The Monk was the most amazing GW class. It was the only really unique class if you ask me.

    Lots of people point to the mesmer but the mesmer was mostly about reverse barb skills ( skills that damage the affected player if he uses a certain action. ) interrupts, cooldown increases etc. While having an entire class dedicated to this was unique the actual mechanics weren't really that unique.

    The monk on the other hand had some really cool unique mechanics in the protection prayers line. Protective spirit was an amazingly fun and challenging skill to use. Reversal of Fortune was one of the most interesting heals. The condition and hex removal mechanics were interesting and important. Managing your cast times while kiting enemies.

    I loved the GW Monk. There doesn't seem to be any other class remotely like it. And I'm sad that the class seems to be gone in GW2.

    The gaurdian seems to pick up the same theme with Dwayna and holy skills but I doubt it'll be the same. What made the monk fun for me was the way you were the true backbone of your party. Your use of the right skills at the right times while managing your energy was what made the Monk amazing. The true feeling of triage was there. Do you use your time and energy to remove that hex or leave it? In the cast time that party member could also take a big hit and die. Do you spend energy on casting protective spirit, chances are he won't be attacked for a longer period of time and you'll have wasted your energy. I don't see the guardian or any other class making decisions like that.

    I hope some day we'll see a healing class as interactive, dynamic and interesting as the Monk.

    Thats why dedicated healers are out. Anet doesn't want any one profession to be the "true backbone" of groups. They want everybody to work together rather than being dependent upon one person.

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  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by romanator0

    Originally posted by gobla

    I think it's a bit of a shame actually.

    The Monk was the most amazing GW class. It was the only really unique class if you ask me.

    Lots of people point to the mesmer but the mesmer was mostly about reverse barb skills ( skills that damage the affected player if he uses a certain action. ) interrupts, cooldown increases etc. While having an entire class dedicated to this was unique the actual mechanics weren't really that unique.

    The monk on the other hand had some really cool unique mechanics in the protection prayers line. Protective spirit was an amazingly fun and challenging skill to use. Reversal of Fortune was one of the most interesting heals. The condition and hex removal mechanics were interesting and important. Managing your cast times while kiting enemies.

    I loved the GW Monk. There doesn't seem to be any other class remotely like it. And I'm sad that the class seems to be gone in GW2.

    The gaurdian seems to pick up the same theme with Dwayna and holy skills but I doubt it'll be the same. What made the monk fun for me was the way you were the true backbone of your party. Your use of the right skills at the right times while managing your energy was what made the Monk amazing. The true feeling of triage was there. Do you use your time and energy to remove that hex or leave it? In the cast time that party member could also take a big hit and die. Do you spend energy on casting protective spirit, chances are he won't be attacked for a longer period of time and you'll have wasted your energy. I don't see the guardian or any other class making decisions like that.

    I hope some day we'll see a healing class as interactive, dynamic and interesting as the Monk.

    Thats why dedicated healers are out. Anet doesn't want any one profession to be the "true backbone" of groups. They want everybody to work together rather than being dependent upon one person.

    Exactly! I love GW but I have to say I hated the fact that I had to wait for a monk all the time....its not GW faults its the MMO genre.

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  • Methos12Methos12 Maladis 46Posts: 1,234Member Uncommon

    I'm honestly kinda surprised this breaking of "holy trinity" hasn't happened sooner given the genre's twist towards the more accessible and easy route. All I know is that I really don't want to wait for that one priest so we can raid anymore. Been seeing that for a decade, kinda tired of it now.

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  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomePosts: 3,538Member Uncommon

    My take on GW2 combat is that its even more about tactical positioning then in GW1. Which I find a refreshing change. I always found the taunting abilities in other games kind of meh.

  • SolestranSolestran Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 342Member

    There are more than enough games out and coming soon that fully embrace the trinity, including TOR.  I'm not sure why you would begrudge one of the very, very few games, if there have actually been any before that do not fullly embrace this particular paradigm.

     

    I for one am glad that developers are willing to take on these archaic and sometimes very irritating game mechanics.  Especially in this regard, because groups are far too reliant on healers and healing in general and as a result, players forget or refuse to take responsibility for their own actions.  If things go wrong, it's almost always blamed on the healers even though it is more likely due to lazy players who have become dependent on healers to make up for their shortcomings.

  • MothanosMothanos ArnhemPosts: 1,860Member Uncommon

    Realy nice to see so many  changes from the current mmo's, they all look and feel the same and makes you do the same rock papper scissor stuff for over a decade now.

     

    Ofcourse there will be some things we will whine about, its human nature to whine :D

    But so far i realy dig their whole vieuw on how a next gen mmo should be like.

    Not having a tank or healer class will be fun.

     

    It will be intense to do Hard PvE content as the strong need to protect the weaker classes, it will be a whole new style of interaction with each other :)

    So many things will play diffrent, this just cant fail tbh ^^

  • goblagobla somewherePosts: 1,411Member

    Originally posted by Kuppa

    Originally posted by romanator0

    Thats why dedicated healers are out. Anet doesn't want any one profession to be the "true backbone" of groups. They want everybody to work together rather than being dependent upon one person.

    Exactly! I love GW but I have to say I hated the fact that I had to wait for a monk all the time....its not GW faults its the MMO genre.

    Was it still that bad when heroes came?

    I never played anything but a monk in the harder parts of the game so I'm not sure how the heroes compare but from what I heard from guildies they were quite fine even though you had to take more of them ( 3 heroes would do the work 2 player healers. )

    I'd have preferred an option where you'd still have a dedicated healing class but also additional options. For example a serious controller/debuffer that prevent enough damage by disabling and debuffing enemies to make sure the team's small self-heals were enough.

    I understand that requiring a healer isn't the perfect way to go. But removing the healer role totally just seems like the easy way out.

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  • romanator0romanator0 Glendora, CAPosts: 2,382Member

    Originally posted by gobla

    Originally posted by Kuppa

    Originally posted by romanator0

    Thats why dedicated healers are out. Anet doesn't want any one profession to be the "true backbone" of groups. They want everybody to work together rather than being dependent upon one person.

    Exactly! I love GW but I have to say I hated the fact that I had to wait for a monk all the time....its not GW faults its the MMO genre.

    Was it still that bad when heroes came?

    I never played anything but a monk in the harder parts of the game so I'm not sure how the heroes compare but from what I heard from guildies they were quite fine even though you had to take more of them ( 3 heroes would do the work 2 player healers. )

    I'd have preferred an option where you'd still have a dedicated healing class but also additional options. For example a serious controller/debuffer that prevent enough damage by disabling and debuffing enemies to make sure the team's small self-heals were enough.

    I understand that requiring a healer isn't the perfect way to go. But removing the healer role totally just seems like the easy way out.

     Seeing as having dedicated healers and tanks are the problem, what kind of solution do you have other than completely removing them?

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  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,564Member Uncommon

    I dont see holy trinity as a problem nor do i see the omnirole system as one. they are both fun and interesting combat mechanics when designed correctly. Ive played plenty of online games that let every class dps,cc and heal.

    afaik gw2 will be the first mmo to do so. it will be interesting to see. im a little concerned about large scale pvp in an environment where everyone can do everything because it can lead to infinite heals or infinite cc chains. hopefully the action bar will help with the spamming.

    on the other hand, swtor will be introducing a cover system along with ranged tanks and stealth healers. if they do it right, that could be a nice change of pace to the holy trinity.

    in either case. its good to finally see some big budget mmos coming out that are not being rushed out the door but are going to hopefully be launched as finished products with some interesting features.

  • SasamiSasami HelsinkiPosts: 326Member

    Originally posted by someforumguy

    My take on GW2 combat is that its even more about tactical positioning then in GW1. Which I find a refreshing change. I always found the taunting abilities in other games kind of meh.

     That what I was thinking however in this video it seems that mobs can walkthrough players so you can't really block them. Maybe it's just demo effect or players didn't play that well. Otherwise it looked lot like aggro pinball, again probaply due player inexperience. That Gears of War ressing is still best thing in GW2, definetly step in right direction instead of stupid spells.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx0QnKgQ1CI&feature=related

  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomePosts: 3,538Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Sasami

    Originally posted by someforumguy

    My take on GW2 combat is that its even more about tactical positioning then in GW1. Which I find a refreshing change. I always found the taunting abilities in other games kind of meh.

     That what I was thinking however in this video it seems that mobs can walkthrough players so you can't really block them. Maybe it's just demo effect or players didn't play that well. Otherwise it looked lot like aggro pinball, again probaply due player inexperience. That Gears of War ressing is still best thing in GW2, definetly step in right direction instead of stupid spells.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx0QnKgQ1CI&feature=related

    Where your teammember puts the wall of fire so you can shoot arrows through it to make them flaming, is about positioning too. Or where the guardians puts up the blockades. All those AOE effects are about positioning too.

  • goblagobla somewherePosts: 1,411Member

    Originally posted by romanator0

     Seeing as having dedicated healers and tanks are the problem, what kind of solution do you have other than completely removing them?

    You need healers because you take damage. So you need someone to heal you up.

    As I said in my Monk post pure healing is simply boring. Prevention of damage however is highly interesting. The thing about damage prevention though is that it's not limited to support classes.

    Create a class like the protection monk which prevents damage by protective enchantments like protective spirit, bonds, guardian and shield of absorption.

    Create a warrior class focussing on stuns, knockdowns and knockbacks. Make these skills PvE only ( reduced effect in PvP ) and make the goal of this class to constantly stun enemies though heavy attacks so they can't fight back and damage you. Enemy rushing a squishy? Knock them back 20 yards and get some breathing room. Lots of enemies around? Do an AoE stomp and stun them all. Big boss doing lots of damage? Chain your disables in such a way that the boss won't get a hit in. Important would be that this class would be low damage. His weapon are his disables. He's an offensive support class, not a damage dealer. Even in PvP he would still focus on disables but stuns could lost shorter while the remaining duration would become for example a slow ( 3 sec stun becomes a 0,5 sec stun with a 2,5 sec slow ).

    Create a dark sorceror class focussing on curses and debuffs. Again a reduced effect in PvP but in PvE make cursed enemies miss nearly all the time, give him options to silence enemies for longer durations. Weaken enemeis greatly reducing their damage etc. Give them a variety of curses with a variety of effects that all reduce the damage output and effectiveness of enemies. In PvP the effects would be reduced but still viable. Say a 75% miss rate curse in PvE and 25% in PvP. Again low damage output.

    The problem is that in the current holy trinity there generally are only 2 out of 10 specs that are unable to do any real damage. The tank and healer. The rest of the specs ( be it berserker warrior, smiting priest, fire mage, unholy necromancer etc. ) generally all focus on damage. You're left with a system that requires non-damage classes for team content but provides 80% of the classes as damage dealers. What you need is a system where the amount of damage dealers is greatly reduced. So that support characters aren't the few and far in between that make it possible for the DPS to enjoy the game but instead make up a far larger portion of the player base.

    This would cause grouping on a much larger scale as many more players would need to group as they aren't all DPS classes who can solo just fine. If players continually group then it's no longer such a sacrifice to play a support role. Not to mention that the devs can put more resources in making support roles fun as they're no longer a small portion of the player base.

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