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Cross-Faction Communication in MMOs

nolfnolf RB, DEPosts: 862Member

An interesting debate cropped up on a game's forums recently that I was curious to hear people's thoughts on.

On an upcomming release the issue of whether cross-faction communication should be implemented arose.  Personally, I am for it (for reasons I will probably get into during the disussion of this thread).  Very valid points were raised on both sides of the debate, and I was curious to find what the folks here in the MMORPG community had to say about it.

Why are you for or against cross-faction communication in your MMOs?

What features (if it is included) make it livable or unlivable for you?

I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.

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Comments

  • TheFarseerTheFarseer EnglandPosts: 97Member

    I think cross-faction communication should be in every MMO, no questions asked.

  • MimiEZMimiEZ Highlands Ranch, COPosts: 225Member

    Originally posted by TheFarseer

    I think cross-faction communication should be in every MMO, no questions asked.

    Agree. I see no reason not to have it. I mean there should be some seperation, like a defense chat or something, but normal talk should have no limit on who can read (and understand) it.

    image
    -I want a Platformer MMO

  • IchmenIchmen Winnipeg, MBPosts: 1,228Member

    depends on what you mean by cross-faction. 

    if you are talking something like red vs blue, ya cross chat is good yet bad. 

    its good to ego boost on bashing your enemies hard for X item/location. but its also bad do to the "spying" (though this is doable without cross chats) as well as people just being pricks over it and bashing everyone not of their faction.

    now if you allow cross faction teaming ya its required. 

    ultimately id say it would depend on the game/context its used in. im for it yet against it. simply because it can and will be abused

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  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,949Member Uncommon

    First of all, I think that chat should be language based. If you can't speak elvish you should not understand elves in the chat but you can of course learn the language, even if a cross faction languages should be harder to learn. I don't even think you should be able to take quests from npcs that talks a language you don't understand.

    Secondly, on a PvE server it is a no brainer. There is no reason to limit chat there.

    On a PvP server things are different. I could agree that a specific neutral chat could exist but it would not really be a bother to me if it doesn't. But the general chat should be restricted, it gives too much away otherwise.

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,767Member Uncommon

    im not either for or against the cross faction communication, but being unable to understand the enemy faction is ok to me so i dont have to listen to the cursings of my pk victims ;)    but then if theres cross faction chat available i can trick the noobs trying to pk me so they leave me alone ;)    

    both ways are good to me.... ;)   but i think the cross faction restrictions in some mmos are lore-wise that some races dont "speak" other factions languages... 

    theres a f2p game that sells language items for a limited time so u can speak to other factions..... but thats kinda silly to put it in a cash shop

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  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,767Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Ichmen

     

    now if you allow cross faction teaming ya its required. 

     

    if this happens, then having 2 or more enemy factions is useless....

    i played log time ago in a pve WoW private server that was cross faction, and both allys and horde were able to joing same guild (cross faction guilds).... there was no way in hell u could kill an ally while u being horde.... most retarded thing ever lol

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  • IrishoakIrishoak Springfield, ORPosts: 633Member

    It's for smack talk and the one bonehead who tries to ruin it for their "side" in PvP. But yeah, go wild.

  • nolfnolf RB, DEPosts: 862Member

    A lot of the arguments I've heard against cross-faction communication in the game's thread have been decent arguments, but all arguments that I feel have been well-countered with no response (other than re-stating what's already been countered).

    People have voiced concerns about opposite factions "helping" each other in PvE situations.  It has been said that on a PvE server, this will likely happen with or without cross-faction communication, at least to some degree.  Inevitably two factions will cross paths hunting the same MOBs in the same areas.  In a non-PvP setting, the MOBs are the only thing to shoot at, and there you have it.  Discussion along these lines went on to focus on how game mechanics could prevent INTENTIONAL cross-faction cooperation, through awarding XP/Mission progress only to the side who had the opening or killing shot.

    Other concerns were voiced about PvP environments.  Obviously griefing and asshattery is a concern, but it seemed generally considered that /ignore and /report commands are a way better of dealing with this then eliminating cross-faction communication altogether.  Then there was the whole "spy" issue.  You know, the folks on your faction feeding the other side information about PvP groups and whatnot.  The counter arguments to this seemed to feel that with programs like Ventrilo, elimination of cross-faction communication would merely put a dent in the number of people doing this.  Not enough of a dent to make up for the loss of immersion and access to half of the people on the server.

    I am for the cross-faction communication, but I approached this argument with a pretty open mind.  It seemed to me that the 25% of people who were AGAINST it (the thread had a poll that a few hundred people took) were very prone to "butthurtness."  Now this obviously doesn't go for everyone against it, but they certainly generally seemed like a crowd who would be much happier in a game with one faction.  The were quick to pick up personal and emotional arguments when their viewpoints we challenged.  The other 75% of folks seemed to think the limitation was silly, and was your garden variety mix of MMO player attitudes.

    Some things the debate made me consider, that I hadn't really considered before.

    I heard some convincing arguments against cross-faction communication /tells.  People were concerned that if people WERE spying in PvP situations, they would at least have to voice it in local chat and risk being "found out."  A valid point in my book, although I do bring up ventrilo in this instance.  Eliminating /tells won't eliminate the problem, but it seemed a fair compromise in discussion.

    While originally I was a proponent of a totally non-restricted cross-communication system, I was argued down to what I feel is a better system than the one I was envisioning at the beginning of the debate.  I now feel that /global should be same-faction only.  I still think I should be able to /tell anyone I see in game, but I would be open to restricting it to player-to-player emails, as long as I could at least draft an email in the field to a player by right clicking on them.  I will live with having to go to a mailbox to send it, but I don't want to have to use a notepad just to communicate with others.  Really, as far as chat channels go, a /local only setting for cross-faction communication would be acceptable, as long as my /tell and email requirements are met.

    I now feel that /trade channel settings should be game dependent.  If its an open player economy, both sides will be trading.  But in the more loot-based "themepark" style economies, there wouldn't be any real NEED for cross-faction /trade communication.

     

    Just trying to sum up the debate that sparked my OP.  I also have some thoughts about what's been posted in this thread, but that'll wait for another reply.

    I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.

  • DnomsedDnomsed Fairbanks, AKPosts: 261Member Uncommon

    Chat restrictions are an outdated game restriction and should not exist.  Even in faction based pvp games, irc, vent, teamspeak bypass in-game communications.  All chat restrictions do is cut your potential community by up to 50%.

    Warhammer fanatic since '85.
    image

  • Garvon3Garvon3 Worcester, MAPosts: 2,898Member

    Originally posted by Dnomsed

    Chat restrictions are an outdated game restriction and should not exist.  Even in faction based pvp games, irc, vent, teamspeak bypass in-game communications.  All chat restrictions do is cut your potential community by up to 50%.

    Incorrect. It depends on the game world.

    In DAoC it made sense not to understand the other realm, because they were

    a) your sworn enemy

    b) there was absolutely no point at which you should be working WITH them

    c) they spoke different languages

     

    and if you really REALLY wanted to communicate with the other realm for trash talking purposes, forums existed for that. I never felt my community was "cut in half" because I couldn't heard Midgard or Hibernia. It just helped add to the realm pride/realm rivalries. It built up the hatred for the other realms and really made them seem like enemies. It also made it so that when the other two realms teamed up with one another it took a lot of coordination out of game, and then when the time came for both of them to attack at once... they couldn't work well together... much like what would happen in real life if two sworn enemies from different nations tried to attack in tandem.

    So no, its a VERY valid gameplay mechanic, especially for PvP purposes. Considering the best PvP game to date had it, why would it be bad?

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLPosts: 3,649Member

    If you are going to allow players to create toons from multiple factions on the same server, there is no reason to prevent it other than what was stated about language issues (if the sides speak different languages that cannot be learned or if there is no third language they could share).  Because blocking typing in such a situation does not block the use of third party tools/etc to get around it.

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • DnomsedDnomsed Fairbanks, AKPosts: 261Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Garvon3

    Originally posted by Dnomsed

    Chat restrictions are an outdated game restriction and should not exist.  Even in faction based pvp games, irc, vent, teamspeak bypass in-game communications.  All chat restrictions do is cut your potential community by up to 50%.

    Incorrect. It depends on the game world.

    In DAoC it made sense not to understand the other realm, because they were

    a) your sworn enemy

    b) there was absolutely no point at which you should be working WITH them

    c) they spoke different languages

     

    and if you really REALLY wanted to communicate with the other realm for trash talking purposes, forums existed for that. I never felt my community was "cut in half" because I couldn't heard Midgard or Hibernia. It just helped add to the realm pride/realm rivalries. It built up the hatred for the other realms and really made them seem like enemies. It also made it so that when the other two realms teamed up with one another it took a lot of coordination out of game, and then when the time came for both of them to attack at once... they couldn't work well together... much like what would happen in real life if two sworn enemies from different nations tried to attack in tandem.

    So no, its a VERY valid gameplay mechanic, especially for PvP purposes. Considering the best PvP game to date had it, why would it be bad?

    You contradict yourself and show examples of bypassing the chat restrictions in your post defending them.  Hence, I stand by my assertation that its an outdated and useless mechanic. 

    Warhammer fanatic since '85.
    image

  • Garvon3Garvon3 Worcester, MAPosts: 2,898Member

    Originally posted by VirusDancer

    If you are going to allow players to create toons from multiple factions on the same server, there is no reason to prevent it other than what was stated about language issues (if the sides speak different languages that cannot be learned or if there is no third language they could share).  Because blocking typing in such a situation does not block the use of third party tools/etc to get around it.

    Well yes, but we're talking about a Realm vs Realm game I assume, and who in their right mind would make an RvR game where you can make a character on either side? That defeats the entire purpose of the game... oh wait.. there are tons of dumb developers out there :/

  • Garvon3Garvon3 Worcester, MAPosts: 2,898Member

    Originally posted by Dnomsed

    Originally posted by Garvon3


    Originally posted by Dnomsed

    Chat restrictions are an outdated game restriction and should not exist.  Even in faction based pvp games, irc, vent, teamspeak bypass in-game communications.  All chat restrictions do is cut your potential community by up to 50%.

    Incorrect. It depends on the game world.

    In DAoC it made sense not to understand the other realm, because they were

    a) your sworn enemy

    b) there was absolutely no point at which you should be working WITH them

    c) they spoke different languages

     

    and if you really REALLY wanted to communicate with the other realm for trash talking purposes, forums existed for that. I never felt my community was "cut in half" because I couldn't heard Midgard or Hibernia. It just helped add to the realm pride/realm rivalries. It built up the hatred for the other realms and really made them seem like enemies. It also made it so that when the other two realms teamed up with one another it took a lot of coordination out of game, and then when the time came for both of them to attack at once... they couldn't work well together... much like what would happen in real life if two sworn enemies from different nations tried to attack in tandem.

    So no, its a VERY valid gameplay mechanic, especially for PvP purposes. Considering the best PvP game to date had it, why would it be bad?

    You contradict yourself and show examples of bypassing the chat restrictions in your post defending them.  Hence, I stand by my assertation that its an outdated and useless mechanic. 

    I in fact, do not contradict myself. What would need to be said from one enemy to the other in game that couldn't be served by out of game forums, while still preserving the atmosphere and war tension in game?

    What makes it "outdated"? Most still consider DAoC to be the best PvP game to date. What has changed that made some of the features key to earning that crown "outdated"? Has immersion become outdated? Realm pride? A solid RvR experience? RPG mechanics? I guess so, people just want WoW these days, all true MMORPG gamers have left the genre after the companies we once loved kept pumping out garbage clones.

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLPosts: 3,649Member

    Originally posted by Garvon3

    Originally posted by VirusDancer

    If you are going to allow players to create toons from multiple factions on the same server, there is no reason to prevent it other than what was stated about language issues (if the sides speak different languages that cannot be learned or if there is no third language they could share).  Because blocking typing in such a situation does not block the use of third party tools/etc to get around it.

    Well yes, but we're talking about a Realm vs Realm game I assume, and who in their right mind would make an RvR game where you can make a character on either side? That defeats the entire purpose of the game... oh wait.. there are tons of dumb developers out there :/

    I was kind of surprised that RIFT allowed this at first, but then again it has become common in recent years to allow folks to do this.

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • Garvon3Garvon3 Worcester, MAPosts: 2,898Member

    Originally posted by VirusDancer

    Originally posted by Garvon3


    Originally posted by VirusDancer

    If you are going to allow players to create toons from multiple factions on the same server, there is no reason to prevent it other than what was stated about language issues (if the sides speak different languages that cannot be learned or if there is no third language they could share).  Because blocking typing in such a situation does not block the use of third party tools/etc to get around it.

    Well yes, but we're talking about a Realm vs Realm game I assume, and who in their right mind would make an RvR game where you can make a character on either side? That defeats the entire purpose of the game... oh wait.. there are tons of dumb developers out there :/

    I was kind of surprised that RIFT allowed this at first, but then again it has become common in recent years to allow folks to do this.

    I don't see why. Well I kind of do. Developers (or at least the people funding the devs) are afraid of the slighest thing that will drive players away. That's why no new MMOs have any challenge or danger to them, and make sure they shower the player with rewards at every turn, lest their unsubscribe! Oh no, what if I make a character on the LOSING side? I may be encouraged to leave!

    Why bother trying to have conflict if the player isn't invested in it at all? Oh no the other side took some of my keeps and now my realm has been weakened! I guess I'll just switch to the winning side... Man, no one knows how to make a good PvP game these days. Or PvE for that matter (dungeon finder, wtf)

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Koolawachie, SCPosts: 14,495Member

    Originally posted by Garvon3

    Originally posted by Dnomsed

    Chat restrictions are an outdated game restriction and should not exist.  Even in faction based pvp games, irc, vent, teamspeak bypass in-game communications.  All chat restrictions do is cut your potential community by up to 50%.

    Incorrect. It depends on the game world.

    In DAoC it made sense not to understand the other realm, because they were

    a) your sworn enemy

    b) there was absolutely no point at which you should be working WITH them

    c) they spoke different languages

     

    and if you really REALLY wanted to communicate with the other realm for trash talking purposes, forums existed for that. I never felt my community was "cut in half" because I couldn't heard Midgard or Hibernia. It just helped add to the realm pride/realm rivalries. It built up the hatred for the other realms and really made them seem like enemies. It also made it so that when the other two realms teamed up with one another it took a lot of coordination out of game, and then when the time came for both of them to attack at once... they couldn't work well together... much like what would happen in real life if two sworn enemies from different nations tried to attack in tandem.

    So no, its a VERY valid gameplay mechanic, especially for PvP purposes. Considering the best PvP game to date had it, why would it be bad?

     

    This is simply incorrect.

    In DAoC there were three sides.

    The ideas was the weakest two sides could team up against the strongest side, which DID happen.

    I participated in some of  these battles, so they were not ALWAYS your sworn enemies, they were your allies.

    We had to organize such battles on forums, and third party chat programs, etc.

    SOME people were plugged in nad knew what was going on exactly, and others just had to tag along, and find out second hand what was going on.

    image

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,643Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Garvon3

    Originally posted by Dnomsed

    Chat restrictions are an outdated game restriction and should not exist.  Even in faction based pvp games, irc, vent, teamspeak bypass in-game communications.  All chat restrictions do is cut your potential community by up to 50%.

    Incorrect. It depends on the game world.

    In DAoC it made sense not to understand the other realm, because they were

    a) your sworn enemy

    If human beings were capable of simply not speaking to those they have a passioned hatred for, the world would be a better place. "It makes sense that you don't understand them because they are your sworn enemy," is some truly bizarre reasoning. How did you end up hating each other to begin with?

    b) there was absolutely no point at which you should be working WITH them

    Unless you want more depth to your PVP in the form of diplomacy, trason, treaties, spying, etc. Without communication, it is a game of simply murdering other people because they are different - it is just that shallow and mindless without the ability to communicate.

    c) they spoke different languages

      Doesn't quite make sense that my kobold was able to learn Norse and Troll but can't learn Lurikeen or Avalonian.

    When it comes to removing what little depth there is to MMO PvP, chat restrictions are second only to faction warfare.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,643Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Garvon3

    I in fact, do not contradict myself. What would need to be said from one enemy to the other in game that couldn't be served by out of game forums, while still preserving the atmosphere and war tension in game?

    How about



    • Let's meet and see if we can divide this territory without bloodshed.


    • Our leaders are asses and I want to stick it to them. I have keep schedules if you have cash.


    • Nation X is getting a bit big. How about we join forces and knock them down a peg?


    • I've got [resource] in bulk and I'm selling to the highest bidder... from any nation.


    • We'll give your people safe passage for [condition or fee]. If any of your people have rightly paid their fee and end up harmed in that area, contact me and I will resolve the matter immediately.


    Those are just some off the top of my head.


     


    In UO, many of the guild leaders had each other's ICQ numbers. A commonpractice for any issue was fo rthe guild members to go to their respective guild leaders and then the guild leaders would sort it out from there. Communication allowed for negotation, creating peace and firing up wars. There wer plenty of times that a guild leaders and their entourage of guards would head to meetings, where the tension was so high it could make people manic because at any given time during the talks all hell could break loose.


     


    War without communication or context is common in MMOs - just a mindless racist massacre.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Luv_bugLuv_bug myob, MAPosts: 120Member

    No cross faction communication is great, its what allows people to have an emotional investment in fighting, because all you share is combat and a desire to avenge what the other has done to you. In knight online daily wars never got old cuz you wanted to crush those human scumbags ;) Wouldn't be quite the same if you were chattin it up all the time. Everybody always wanting to break every restriction to chattin with your friends. Use a phone if you wanna talk to your friends, or make some in game ones. Man/woman up!

  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,231Member Uncommon

    WoW had it (partialy) in beta, got removed completely before release.

    global agenda still has it, since there are no factions, just random "bgs" with a random choice of sides.

    i think conan has it too, but conan is not for the weakhearted anyway :P

     

     

    i actually like that feature, tho i tend to flame my oponents now and then just coz they killed me hehe, and guess i am not the only one here. might be the reason it was removed - to stop people "hurting" their accounts :>

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • Garvon3Garvon3 Worcester, MAPosts: 2,898Member

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by Garvon3



    I in fact, do not contradict myself. What would need to be said from one enemy to the other in game that couldn't be served by out of game forums, while still preserving the atmosphere and war tension in game?

    How about



    • Let's meet and see if we can divide this territory without bloodshed.


    • Our leaders are asses and I want to stick it to them. I have keep schedules if you have cash.


    • Nation X is getting a bit big. How about we join forces and knock them down a peg?


    • I've got [resource] in bulk and I'm selling to the highest bidder... from any nation.


    • We'll give your people safe passage for [condition or fee]. If any of your people have rightly paid their fee and end up harmed in that area, contact me and I will resolve the matter immediately.


    Those are just some off the top of my head.


     


    I

    It's clear you haven't played DAoC then. Most of these situations simply were not possible to occur. In a sandbox FFA PvP game, sure that's perfectly viable. In a REALM VS REALM game, where you at no point played with the other people, this did NOT happen. The only trading or talking that happened was "Albion is way too powerful, let's both attack at the same time on Monday, deal?" and that was handled entirely out of game to avoid spies and the like.

    I remember now and then there was paranoia about "xrealmers", plants, Albion players who were really Midgard players with a second account. That was a cool mechanic. That's gone if you can just talk willy nilly with anyone or join any side whenever you want.

  • CeridithCeridith Toronto, ONPosts: 2,980Member

    Cross faction communication is fine. In fact, cross faction grouping, trading, etc, can also be fine. It depends on the context of the game however.

    If it's a PvP oriented game, it's within the interests of facilitating 'faction hate' by limiting interation. That's the reason why WoW has no cooperative actions or talking between Horde and Alliance, to create a stigma between the two, and basically dehumanize them.

    If it's a PvE ruleset game however, where there is no prevelent overworld struggle between factions, even if there are a few PvP zones or instances where they clash, I see no reason why they shouldn't just allow players of different factions to speak, group, or otherwise interact with each other.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,643Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Garvon3

    Originally posted by Loktofeit


    Originally posted by Garvon3



    I in fact, do not contradict myself. What would need to be said from one enemy to the other in game that couldn't be served by out of game forums, while still preserving the atmosphere and war tension in game?

    How about



    • Let's meet and see if we can divide this territory without bloodshed.


    • Our leaders are asses and I want to stick it to them. I have keep schedules if you have cash.


    • Nation X is getting a bit big. How about we join forces and knock them down a peg?


    • I've got [resource] in bulk and I'm selling to the highest bidder... from any nation.


    • We'll give your people safe passage for [condition or fee]. If any of your people have rightly paid their fee and end up harmed in that area, contact me and I will resolve the matter immediately.


    Those are just some off the top of my head.


     


    I

    It's clear you haven't played DAoC then. Most of these situations simply were not possible to occur. In a sandbox FFA PvP game, sure that's perfectly viable. In a REALM VS REALM game, where you at no point played with the other people, this did NOT happen. The only trading or talking that happened was "Albion is way too powerful, let's both attack at the same time on Monday, deal?" and that was handled entirely out of game to avoid spies and the like.

    I remember now and then there was paranoia about "xrealmers", plants, Albion players who were really Midgard players with a second account. That was a cool mechanic. That's gone if you can just talk willy nilly with anyone or join any side whenever you want.

    I did play DAoC, and you are basically stating that in Realm vs Realm it is nothing more than a 3rd person view deathmatch. The combat of DAoC is some of the best I've played in an MMO. The PVP gameplay and options, however really aren't much more than what you could get from TF2. It's fun but really shallow on every level. That you feel that the few meaningful realm interactions are better if handled out of game is just ... interesting.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,643Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Ceridith

    If it's a PvP oriented game, it's within the interests of facilitating 'faction hate' by limiting interation. That's the reason why WoW has no cooperative actions or talking between Horde and Alliance, to create a stigma between the two, and basically dehumanize them.

    I guess some are into that, but  mob mentality and blind hatred just because the other people are a different color just doesn't seem like my idea of fun. Being able to establish personal reasons for animosity or, even better, establish personal reasons for cooperation and cameraderie seems like a better route for building more meaningful conflict and ties.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

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