If you think it's fun it's "Content" If you don't think it's fun, it's "Timesink"
That distinction will be different for every individual that plays the game. There are times developers will intentionally use timesinks as ways to extend content and keep playesr from blowing through it too fast (Faction/Reputation grinding, key/flag quests, etc)
You can have and we actually do have MMORPGs that have a relatively minor grind involved, but there has to be some sort of a grind in order to keep people paying those monthly fees.
say's the herd ..........
baaaaa
Take away the leveling give us content , give gm's tools to create exiting events instead of dedicating 1,000's of hours development and Gm monitoring to leveling .
Its the future .
Dynamic content that changes constantly , instead of exp goals and time sink levels .
Once you actually figure out how to implement something like that in such a way that investors are confident in your ideas, you can dream up ideas all day long, but you haven't put forth one single actionable solution to the issue.
I'm just a player ....... you want me to invent a mmo ? , Ridiculous comeback tbh ......
But why do you think there needs to be a grind ? , your stuck in the shoe box like almost every mmo developer out there unable to see or think outside of the tiny space people like blizzard have stuffed you in . Whichever MMO you play the GM's and DEV team are devoting a large % of there time balancing tweaking and revising the leveling process constantly . The brains behind EVERY mmo is being more or less wasted on this ......Anyone old or geeky enough to have played pen and paper RPGS may still be able to remember what a Games Master was realy for . Most of the WOW generation MMO gamers would likley give you a totaly different Interpretation .In most MMO'S Games Masters have become slaves/police to the leveling process , controling macros/ exploits players will exploit to gain levels faster , or controling/fixing bugs and dupes indirecly linked to the leveling process . We need a step back to get some godamn roleplay in our roleplaying games , A Games Master should be just this someone who encourages and adapts the game to the players to have fun .
I'm just saying it's easy to spout off ideas, but unless you include ways of implementing those ideas into actual game design, you can't say they'll work.
Even so, can you "totally" eliminate the grind? How many games "don't" have a grind?
Some very simple ways would be to give GM's (assuming they can be free of the constant policing "GM's" seem to spend all there time doing now ) the tools to be able to Adapt dungeons on the fly for example drop trap's and npc's or even control NPCs , Even alter the architechture of the dungeon itself , trap the players esacpe with a landslide and open up a more dangeous exit . Give the GM's the tools to create open world events that matter within game lore make them the "leaders" of the Game races . So many things are possible we need to look back at the old pen and paper games to relearn what a GM should truley be . I realise there may be many games already out there with these features but how many of those games have dev teams and GM's with enough time aside from respecivley balancing or policing the game to to build or use them as they should .
MMo's dont need to become FPS insta gratification games , they can still have a open world with items to acquire and craft or trade ,Reputations to build and smash . With a diverse race and class system pluss a variety of ways to build each one theres still room to be original , to build you char in your way and to fall in love with your avatar . MMos dont have to be only Power gamer friendly with a gigantic learning curve if they loose the leveling system but it obviously needs to be adressed by easing your players in to the game through other means if thats what they choose to do .
You can have and we actually do have MMORPGs that have a relatively minor grind involved, but there has to be some sort of a grind in order to keep people paying those monthly fees.
say's the herd ..........
baaaaa
Take away the leveling give us content , give gm's tools to create exiting events instead of dedicating 1,000's of hours development and Gm monitoring to leveling .
Its the future .
Dynamic content that changes constantly , instead of exp goals and time sink levels .
Once you actually figure out how to implement something like that in such a way that investors are confident in your ideas, you can dream up ideas all day long, but you haven't put forth one single actionable solution to the issue.
I'm just a player ....... you want me to invent a mmo ? , Ridiculous comeback tbh ......
But why do you think there needs to be a grind ? , your stuck in the shoe box like almost every mmo developer out there unable to see or think outside of the tiny space people like blizzard have stuffed you in . Whichever MMO you play the GM's and DEV team are devoting a large % of there time balancing tweaking and revising the leveling process constantly . The brains behind EVERY mmo is being more or less wasted on this ......Anyone old or geeky enough to have played pen and paper RPGS may still be able to remember what a Games Master was realy for . Most of the WOW generation MMO gamers would likley give you a totaly different Interpretation .In most MMO'S Games Masters have become slaves/police to the leveling process , controling macros/ exploits players will exploit to gain levels faster , or controling/fixing bugs and dupes indirecly linked to the leveling process . We need a step back to get some godamn roleplay in our roleplaying games , A Games Master should be just this someone who encourages and adapts the game to the players to have fun .
I'm just saying it's easy to spout off ideas, but unless you include ways of implementing those ideas into actual game design, you can't say they'll work.
Even so, can you "totally" eliminate the grind? How many games "don't" have a grind?
Some very simple ways would be to give GM's (assuming they can be free of the constant policing "GM's" seem to spend all there time doing now ) the tools to be able to Adapt dungeons on the fly for example drop trap's and npc's or even control NPCs , Even alter the architechture of the dungeon itself , trap the players esacpe with a landslide and open up a more dangeous exit . Give the GM's the tools to create open world events that matter within game lore make them the "leaders" of the Game races . So many things are possible we need to look back at the old pen and paper games to relearn what a GM should truley be . I realise there may be many games already out there with these features but how many of those games have dev teams and GM's with enough time aside from respecivley balancing or policing the game to to build or use them as they should .
MMo's dont need to become FPS insta gratification games , they can still have a open world with items to acquire and craft or trade ,Reputations to build and smash . With a diverse race and class system pluss a variety of ways to build each one theres still room to be original , to build you char in your way and to fall in love with your avatar . MMos dont have to be only Power gamer friendly with a gigantic learning curve if they loose the leveling system but it obviously needs to be adressed by easing your players in to the game through other means if thats what they choose to do .
What you’re talking about is basically old UO. That being said these ideas don't really work except on certain occasions, like a Gm event. You are talking about a massive amount of man power. Imagine implementing this into a game with a million plus players. How many GM's would it take to make everyone’s experience different in a dungeon? Since most games use instancing now, let's just say 50 of the same instance are open at the same time. Is a single GM expected to bounce between these instances? It isn't very theasible. This would also take away from them dealing with players issues. So, customer service would suffer.
As for remembering UO, it was one of the biggest time sinks I've ever played. So much so that people macroed skills for months because it took too long to "GM" anything naturally. I'd rather play through a game that has levels then sit and watch my toon cast Flame Strike in my house for 8 hours.
Instancing , Another Side effect of GM's too busy on pointless shit .
Stick billy and his 10 mates in the hole , run the program and don't forget the exp treat at the end .
First, how is it a side effect of GM's? It is implemented during the creation of the game by developers. Gm's have nothing to do with it at all. Infact, this is only an opionion but I think most people prefer instancing over open world dungeons. I know I used to hate when someone would come in and steal a mob. Instancing elminated that frustrating aspect of the MMO's.
Second, if you talking about a program that throws Stick billy and his 10 mates in a hole then wouldn't that be the same experience that everyone would when they went into the dungeon? Also, if it were an open world dungeon don't you think the people behind Stick billy's group would be like " Screw this! Why do I want to fall into the hole with that guy?"
So, let me get his right. You want GM's to have a program that will allow them to instantly change (on the fly) any aspect of the game? Once again doesn't sound to theasible, atleast to me.
If I am paying a monthly sub than it better have many time sinks otherwise they are better off just making it pay to play since I would most likely stop within a month.
All of my favorite computer and console games growing up had timesinks but I expect more entertaining and bigger ones in MMORPGs since I am paying monthly.
NEWS FLASH!"A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished!https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
If I am paying a monthly sub than it better have many time sinks otherwise they are better off just making it pay to play since I would most likely stop within a month.
All of my favorite computer and console games growing up had timesinks but I expect more entertaining and bigger ones in MMORPGs since I am paying monthly.
So you'd be totally cool with a game where you clicked a button to attack a mob and then had to come back in EXACTLY 48 hours to see the results and decide what to do next? And if you didn't come back on time, the monster would just keep attacking you.
Yeah, I'm exageratiing a whole lot, but that is basically what you're advocating for. There are plenty of Facebook and browser games that do that already. I expect something more from a AAA title with it's own client and a monthly fee.
Instancing , Another Side effect of GM's too busy on pointless shit .
Stick billy and his 10 mates in the hole , run the program and don't forget the exp treat at the end .
First, how is it a side effect of GM's? It is implemented during the creation of the game by developers. Gm's have nothing to do with it at all. Infact, this is only an opionion but I think most people prefer instancing over open world dungeons. I know I used to hate when someone would come in and steal a mob. Instancing elminated that frustrating aspect of the MMO's.
Second, if you talking about a program that throws Stick billy and his 10 mates in a hole then wouldn't that be the same experience that everyone would when they went into the dungeon? Also, if it were an open world dungeon don't you think the people behind Stick billy's group would be like " Screw this! Why do I want to fall into the hole with that guy?"
So, let me get his right. You want GM's to have a program that will allow them to instantly change (on the fly) any aspect of the game? Once again doesn't sound to theasible, atleast to me.
Instancing seriously ......
I've never seen how closed instancing has any place in mmo's . The term massivley multiplayer is in direct opposition to 5-10 player instances in my opinion . But hey thats a whole other discussion ......
Back on topic
So as we have previously established I'm no game designer , I dont know how may GM's blizzard or anyone else employs , I dont know how much of there time is actualy dedicated to policing stuff .
But I do know the whole mmo genre is stale and boring , I'm a long time player and i know a lot of other people who have lost interest . Also as someone stated before its not just a few people , Gamers speak with there wallets and mmos are hovering up the pocket change .
The EXP carrot is old and mouldy and after 15 + years lots of us dont want to nibble the mankey old thing anymore . Time for some inovation .
That distinction will be different for every individual that plays the game. There are times developers will intentionally use timesinks as ways to extend content and keep playesr from blowing through it too fast (Faction/Reputation grinding, key/flag quests, etc)
QFT, this is about the size of it.
The only real difference is in the "feel" of a game, whether the lore, the backstory, the general ambience, grabs one or not. If the feel of the game grabs you the grind doesn't feel like grind, if the feel of the game doesn't grab you, the grind feels like grind.
What often happens is that the "magic" of the feel of the game may fade, and the grind starts to feel like grind - that's when one leaves the game (or alternatively, squats on the forums like a troll and bitches about the game).
Comments
If you think it's fun it's "Content"
If you don't think it's fun, it's "Timesink"
That distinction will be different for every individual that plays the game. There are times developers will intentionally use timesinks as ways to extend content and keep playesr from blowing through it too fast (Faction/Reputation grinding, key/flag quests, etc)
Some very simple ways would be to give GM's (assuming they can be free of the constant policing "GM's" seem to spend all there time doing now ) the tools to be able to Adapt dungeons on the fly for example drop trap's and npc's or even control NPCs , Even alter the architechture of the dungeon itself , trap the players esacpe with a landslide and open up a more dangeous exit . Give the GM's the tools to create open world events that matter within game lore make them the "leaders" of the Game races . So many things are possible we need to look back at the old pen and paper games to relearn what a GM should truley be . I realise there may be many games already out there with these features but how many of those games have dev teams and GM's with enough time aside from respecivley balancing or policing the game to to build or use them as they should .
MMo's dont need to become FPS insta gratification games , they can still have a open world with items to acquire and craft or trade ,Reputations to build and smash . With a diverse race and class system pluss a variety of ways to build each one theres still room to be original , to build you char in your way and to fall in love with your avatar . MMos dont have to be only Power gamer friendly with a gigantic learning curve if they loose the leveling system but it obviously needs to be adressed by easing your players in to the game through other means if thats what they choose to do .
What you’re talking about is basically old UO. That being said these ideas don't really work except on certain occasions, like a Gm event. You are talking about a massive amount of man power. Imagine implementing this into a game with a million plus players. How many GM's would it take to make everyone’s experience different in a dungeon? Since most games use instancing now, let's just say 50 of the same instance are open at the same time. Is a single GM expected to bounce between these instances? It isn't very theasible. This would also take away from them dealing with players issues. So, customer service would suffer.
As for remembering UO, it was one of the biggest time sinks I've ever played. So much so that people macroed skills for months because it took too long to "GM" anything naturally. I'd rather play through a game that has levels then sit and watch my toon cast Flame Strike in my house for 8 hours.
Instancing , Another Side effect of GM's too busy on pointless shit .
Stick billy and his 10 mates in the hole , run the program and don't forget the exp treat at the end .
First, how is it a side effect of GM's? It is implemented during the creation of the game by developers. Gm's have nothing to do with it at all. Infact, this is only an opionion but I think most people prefer instancing over open world dungeons. I know I used to hate when someone would come in and steal a mob. Instancing elminated that frustrating aspect of the MMO's.
Second, if you talking about a program that throws Stick billy and his 10 mates in a hole then wouldn't that be the same experience that everyone would when they went into the dungeon? Also, if it were an open world dungeon don't you think the people behind Stick billy's group would be like " Screw this! Why do I want to fall into the hole with that guy?"
So, let me get his right. You want GM's to have a program that will allow them to instantly change (on the fly) any aspect of the game? Once again doesn't sound to theasible, atleast to me.
If I am paying a monthly sub than it better have many time sinks otherwise they are better off just making it pay to play since I would most likely stop within a month.
All of my favorite computer and console games growing up had timesinks but I expect more entertaining and bigger ones in MMORPGs since I am paying monthly.
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
So you'd be totally cool with a game where you clicked a button to attack a mob and then had to come back in EXACTLY 48 hours to see the results and decide what to do next? And if you didn't come back on time, the monster would just keep attacking you.
Yeah, I'm exageratiing a whole lot, but that is basically what you're advocating for. There are plenty of Facebook and browser games that do that already. I expect something more from a AAA title with it's own client and a monthly fee.
Instancing seriously ......
I've never seen how closed instancing has any place in mmo's . The term massivley multiplayer is in direct opposition to 5-10 player instances in my opinion . But hey thats a whole other discussion ......
Back on topic
So as we have previously established I'm no game designer , I dont know how may GM's blizzard or anyone else employs , I dont know how much of there time is actualy dedicated to policing stuff .
But I do know the whole mmo genre is stale and boring , I'm a long time player and i know a lot of other people who have lost interest . Also as someone stated before its not just a few people , Gamers speak with there wallets and mmos are hovering up the pocket change .
The EXP carrot is old and mouldy and after 15 + years lots of us dont want to nibble the mankey old thing anymore . Time for some inovation .
Step outside the shoebox .
QFT, this is about the size of it.
The only real difference is in the "feel" of a game, whether the lore, the backstory, the general ambience, grabs one or not. If the feel of the game grabs you the grind doesn't feel like grind, if the feel of the game doesn't grab you, the grind feels like grind.
What often happens is that the "magic" of the feel of the game may fade, and the grind starts to feel like grind - that's when one leaves the game (or alternatively, squats on the forums like a troll and bitches about the game).