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How large are MMO worlds now REALLY? A comparison in world sizes

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  • GrazzulGrazzul Chino, CAPosts: 21Member

    Didn't one of the developers at Arenanet say that the world would take several hours to cross, not just 40 minutes?

  • EtherougeEtherouge Candler, NCPosts: 514Member

    Not sure if these are 100% correct (drag into new tab).

  • TallynTallyn Monkton, MDPosts: 216Member

    In regards to Vanguard: Saga of Heroes...

    According to Silky Venom, each "chunk" is 2km x 2km.

    Thestra itself is 13 chunks wide and 9 chunks high.

    Kojan is roughly 5 chunks wide and 12 chunks high.

    Qalia is 11 chunks wide and 9 chunks high.

    There are also many underground cities and dungeons that take up quite near entire chunks worth of space.

    I'll try to do the run speed tests and math tomorrow, but it definitely seems like Vanguard is a major contender here.

    However, should the trial "island" (6km x 6km) and areas of ocean that really offer no content count towards the total world size?

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick WonderlandPosts: 7,619Member

    Originally posted by Tallyn

    In regards to Vanguard: Saga of Heroes...

    According to Silky Venom, each "chunk" is 2km x 2km.

    Thestra itself is 13 chunks wide and 9 chunks high.

    Kojan is roughly 5 chunks wide and 12 chunks high.

    Qalia is 11 chunks wide and 9 chunks high.

    There are also many underground cities and dungeons that take up quite near entire chunks worth of space.

    I'll try to do the run speed tests and math tomorrow, but it definitely seems like Vanguard is a major contender here.

    However, should the trial "island" (6km x 6km) and areas of ocean that really offer no content count towards the total world size?

    Thanks! Is there a map where those chunks can be seen (is it like a raster grid?

     

    Btw, there's no way that the trial island can be 3 by 3 chunks (6 km) if that's the little island in the west of the map in Phelcher's post and if Thestra is only 13 by 9 chunks.

    Personally I usually measure North to South coast and West to east coast, that seems a more accurate estimation. Of course is the measures of a specific worldmap are known the size the landmass can be deduced accordingly.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • MeowheadMeowhead New Carlisle, INPosts: 3,716Member

    If I were a game developer, I'd make all my islands look like incredibly elongated + signs.

    Bars about 30 meters wide... and 200 kilometers long.

    Just to totally screw with your calculations Mr. Maverick.  Yes.  That's right, the whole reason I want to be a game developer is to make horribly designed land masses to spark new arguments on an obscure thread in a random forum I found on the internet.

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick WonderlandPosts: 7,619Member

    Originally posted by Meowhead

    Just to totally screw with your calculations Mr. Maverick.  Yes.  That's right, the whole reason I want to be a game developer is to make horribly designed land masses to spark new arguments on an obscure thread in a random forum I found on the internet.

    Heh, that sounds as valid a reason for spending the time as any other internet/forum related activity image

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • EkarosEkaros TurkuPosts: 367Member

    For AO:

    RK

    http://mariuseg.tihlde.org/xoops/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=21&cid=4

    You can see ingame coordinate grid. I belive 1 equals atleast 0.75 meters but might be more. Need someone to check this.

    On quick calculation I got minium of about 100km^2, should ignore part of the stuff which are dungeons and not real ingame zones in scale.

     

    And SL, also in this map north is LoX areas in scale and on right hand are non-scale dungeons.

    http://mariuseg.tihlde.org/xoops/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=9&cid=3

     

    I belive someone with too much times should be able to calculate the area from these...

     

    Also, RK map is cleary just a small part of planet, so in game world is big, but habitable area isn't so...

  • TallynTallyn Monkton, MDPosts: 216Member

    I was sifting through the Vanguard: Saga of Heroes forums and found out that someone already did most of the math! It looks like this guy named Slyde also only calculated usable content areas, or in other words he left out useless sea chunks.


    Here's the url to the thread http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?start=15&topic_id=30863.



    Originally posted by Slyde on the Vanguard: Saga of Heroes forums
    Based on 2k square chunks, and just using a rectangular grid that covers all the land mass (not the empty sea squares outside the grid) I came up with the following size calculations:

    Thestra:
    Grid: 8x12
    Km: 16x24 = 384 square kilometers
    Miles: 9.94x14.91 = 148.2 square miles

    Qualia:
    Grid: 9x11
    Km: 18x22 = 396 square kilometers
    Miles: 11.18x13.67 = 152.83 square miles

    Kojan:
    Grid: 12x6
    Km: 24x12 = 288 square kilometers
    Miles: 14.91x7.45 = 111.07 square miles

    All Telon:
    Km: 1068 square kilometers
    Miles: 412.1 square miles

    Again, these calculations exclude most of the empty sea chunks, and are based on 2kx2k square chunks, which someone mentioned above, and seems about right to me.



    In response to the Trial of the Isle comment by MMO.Maverick, SOE released a new Trial of the Isle that's on a completely separate "continent" than the others. On the map the island itself is 3 by 3 chunks in size, 6km by 6km. In reality however there's only one chunk worth of content there... despite the fact that it can have you engaged for over a week and feel like a lot more.


    Now the run speed thing is something that I'll work on when I get a chance. I want to make sure that it's as accurate as possible so I'm not going to do it in a middle of a raid or something. Been tight on time recently so if someone else wants to they could just do it on the trial island.


    I'll also test for myself whether or not each chunk is 2km by 2km and get you screenshots of the grid/chunk map so you can verify these claims, MMO.Maverick.

  • PhelcherPhelcher Boston, MAPosts: 1,053Member

     

    Here is the chunk map of Thestra: http://vanguard.gamepressure.com/thestra_map.asp

     

     

    If I remember correctly, it is about 10 minutes a chunk, running.

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick WonderlandPosts: 7,619Member

    Damn, that's pretty good stuff, you two! Thanks for the detailed info, certainly very useful especially when the run speed is clear too image

     

    I'm somewhat surprised though. The main continent, Thestra, looks smaller than I'd expected at first based upon the stories other people told about Vanguard's vastness.

     

    To explain:

    WoW's Kalimdor is 10 miles high from North to South coast and about 4 miles from west to east.

    Thestra looks to be  12.5 miles from east to west and 4-4.5 miles from north to south in the middle of the continent.

     

    That is, if each chunk is 2x2 km.

    All in all, if these figures are correct then Thestra doesn't seem that big when you put a WoW continent or SWG planet next to it. Darkfall would be larger than Vanguard then.

     

    If it takes 10 min to cross a chunk, then it'd also mean that Vanguard has the slowest run speed of all the MMO's so far, namely 7.5 miles/h, where the other MMO's have run speeds of 11-16 miles/hour  (Rift, the slowest so far, has a measured run speed of 10.8 miles/hour)

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • ToxiliumToxilium Cambridge, ONPosts: 905Member

    May I point out something I find a bit humorous? As many people enjoy citing games like WoW are some of the biggest around, let me show you something.

    image

    image

  • KruulKruul Houston, TXPosts: 476Member

    Back when I was playing LOTRO during MoM I tested the time it takes to pass through Moria using the fastest route possible and made the trek from the entrance to the exit in just under 15 minutes.

     

    The planets Mustafar and Kashyyyk in SWG are much smaller than the rest

     

    I've played almost all the MMOs on the market and Darkfall and Vanguard are the largest I've played in by far. They are both absolutely massive

  • ToxiliumToxilium Cambridge, ONPosts: 905Member

    And larger MMOs are really not a big feat. Dark and Light was an absolutely terrible game, yet it has one of the biggest game worlds. Flight Simulators you could argue have the largest video game worlds of anything as they are the entire planet. The difference is with these massive games is it's impossible to detail them. The larger the world = less content per km.

    image

    image

  • FreeBooteRFreeBooteR Surrey, BCPosts: 333Member

    The older they are the bigger they tend to get.

    Archlinux ftw

  • MeridionMeridion HeidelbergPosts: 1,490Member

    Dark and Light. Worldmap of Ganareth.

    By 200 km they MEAN 200 km, runspeed was about 10km/h, flying mounts from level 1, the game was horrible but the world was larger than any other ground based MMO I've ever seen, including vanguard or SWG. Everything was scaled like irl, mountains were 4000 m high and took hours to climb per foot, viewing distance was 50km etc. ...

    I once tried to cross east to west by foot, after about 5 hours of constant travelling I gave up when I reached the central mountain range...

    M

    P.S: The game is long gone and dead btw and it failed epicly at anything _but_ the world engine.

     

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick WonderlandPosts: 7,619Member

    Yep, read about Dark & Light's landmass size too, I think it's indeed the largest land based MMO that has been around.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • NightAngellNightAngell londonPosts: 566Member

    Originally posted by Meridion

    Dark and Light. Worldmap of Ganareth.

    By 200 km they MEAN 200 km, runspeed was about 10km/h, flying mounts from level 1, the game was horrible but the world was larger than any other ground based MMO I've ever seen, including vanguard or SWG. Everything was scaled like irl, mountains were 4000 m high and took hours to climb per foot, viewing distance was 50km etc. ...

    I once tried to cross east to west by foot, after about 5 hours of constant travelling I gave up when I reached the central mountain range...

    M

    P.S: The game is long gone and dead btw and it failed epicly at anything _but_ the world engine.

     

    Yup..Dark and Light was the biggest so far with 15.000Sq miles. I think the snail games is keeping the same large world when they release their new MMO which is based on the dark and ligght world but completely revamped with different names and places and classes and world lore in 2012.  

    But this vid shows you how big the mountains were,oh the dats of hand gliding were bliss..(

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoMm0WXSnD0&feature=related

  • PyscoJuggaloPyscoJuggalo Chicago, ILPosts: 1,114Member

    Too bad D&L was a scam.....

     

    Anyways, why do you need large land mass in games like WoW, you really don't.  It is a raid based game with tons of instancing, with multiple servers.  Landmass is needed for World Sim games that are based around the gathering and control of resurces and trade.  Eve has all those star systems to promote their corp warfare, SWG had all those planets to promote player cities and commerce, Themeparks do not need wide open spaces.

     

    So really size is irrelevant in modern MMORPGs because modern MMORPGs are primarily based upon raiding, which mostly involves instances now.

    image
    --When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii.
    --In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses.
    --The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!
    --CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.

  • Z3R01Z3R01 NYC, NYPosts: 2,426Member
    The more I read this thread the more I realize world size means very little in mmos.

    Playing:

    Waiting on:

  • raysieraysie londonPosts: 32Member

    Originally posted by Kuinn

    Originally posted by jpnz

    Even if you are an explorer type, what you find in the various nooks and cranies has to be interesting.

    As long as things aren't feeling restrictive or clumped up it, the actual amount of space is not really an issue.

    FF14 has a large land mass apparently but it isn't getting high-scores from the critics. (I havne't played FF14 so this is 2nd hand info).

    Elder scrolls4: Obvilion has a vastly larger world compared to Divinity2 but I prefer Divinity2 cause it offers a more interesting story/char/gameplay and an infinitely better VA.

     

    FFXIV:

    I checked FFXIV out when it was released, obviously I didnt tarry too long in there, but I did have time to run from the desert city to the forest city, and it actually didnt take too long (I dont have any solid numbers or estimates anymore really, I just remember it didnt take very long, the overall world propably is quite big IF there's access to it). Sure there were plenty of landmass to left and right as I went on, but most of it seems to be just heavily copy pasted, along the way there was nothing interesting for ones eye. The map indicated there could be something more interesting but from city A to B it was heavily copy pasted with full of squirrels to crack.

     

    Rift:

    I like exploring big worlds as long as there's details and uniqueness to places, so it comes as a quite big dissapointment how long Rift's world is, I was kinda looking forward to it as something polished, and if too WoW like overall, at least a new fresh world to explore on, that tiny screen next to Kalimdor is a bit disheartening considering exploration...

     

    I guess great polish comes with a great price too.

     Someone may have said this but rifts world is not all ravailibly at the moment even in beta. the level cap in beta is 42, level cap at release is going to be 50 so i would assume they will release at least 2 more zones so dont be too dissapionted.

  • CulannHSCulannHS Chattanooga, TNPosts: 5Member

    This  thread is one of those cases where you can clearly see it's full of useless shit. 

    First, it really doesn't matter "the land size" of a MMO as much as what's occuring ON that land.  Second, the data presented is horrifically flawed, and in each case misses a quite specific point. 

    Each world is designed to feel "all-inclusive", that is, to make you feel like you're IN that world.  Sizes will vary based on each MMO and the all-inclusive factor will be greater or lesser per MMO as the developers see fit.  As such, the "size" of a MMO is utterly immaterial and inconsequential.

    I know you think you heard what I said, but I'm not sure what you heard is what I meant.

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick WonderlandPosts: 7,619Member

    Originally posted by CulannHS

    This  thread is one of those cases where you can clearly see it's full of useless shit. 

    First, it really doesn't matter "the land size" of a MMO as much as what's occuring ON that land.  Second, the data presented is horrifically flawed, and in each case misses a quite specific point. 

    Each world is designed to feel "all-inclusive", that is, to make you feel like you're IN that world.  Sizes will vary based on each MMO and the all-inclusive factor will be greater or lesser per MMO as the developers see fit.  As such, the "size" of a MMO is utterly immaterial and inconsequential.

    Lol. That you don't give a rat's ass about if an MMORPG feels like a large world or not, doesn't mean that every MMO gamer is like you. Yeah, I know, that can be a hard concept to grasp.

     

    To know that size of a game world can matter you'll have to picture if WoW vanilla would only have been as large as the southern half of the Eastern Kingdoms. I bet that a lot of people would've found it small and tiny compared to what they find about WoW's world now. And you only have to compare the different feel of an MMO as EQ, AC, Vanguard or LotrO with a smaller world like AoC.

    Again, some MMO gamers couldn't give a damn about the size of a world as long as there's enough to do in it, but hey, some MMO gamers also don't mind if the MMO they played was nothing more than a lobby game. Tastes differ.

    On the other hand, there are also MMO gamers who like exploration in their MMO's, and larger sized worlds often facilitate exploration fun better than smaller sized worlds.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick WonderlandPosts: 7,619Member

    Originally posted by raysie

    Someone may have said this but rifts world is not all ravailibly at the moment even in beta. the level cap in beta is 42, level cap at release is going to be 50 so i would assume they will release at least 2 more zones so dont be too dissapionted.

    If I'm correct, there's only like 11 zones ingame (dungeons excluded), so if you've played both sides, you could already have seen 4 areas, which out of 11 means that you've seen more than a third of its world, 11 zones isn't that much, especially since they aren't that large.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • PhelcherPhelcher Boston, MAPosts: 1,053Member

    Note: You have to normalize land size, by run speed. Not the other way around. Given that the average person runs at a given speed (ie: jogging = 6mph), you use that as a scale to determine world size.

    Coincidentally, in the time it takes to run threw 5 chunks in VG, you can travel the entire length of a continent within WoW. Ironically... given artifical barriers and walls, you may have to "run around" obsticles that lengthen most trips, but once you know running speed, all the other calculation become scale.

    Most game will never have to be bigger than VG...   I still havn't seen the whole world.

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick WonderlandPosts: 7,619Member

    Originally posted by Phelcher

    Note: You have to normalize land size, by run speed. Not the other way around. Given that the average person runs at a given speed (ie: jogging = 6mph), you use that as a scale to determine world size.

    Coincidentally, in the time it takes to run threw 5 chunks in VG, you can travel the entire length of a continent within WoW. Ironically... given artifical barriers and walls, you may have to "run around" obsticles that lengthen most trips, but once you know running speed, all the other calculation become scale.

    The run speed of an average person in real life is inadequate for ingame comparisons, since run speed ingame is depending on which MMO can vary from 10-16 mph. Those can be determined by the ingame measures that are being used (ie a spell that has a 25 meter range), as one of the methods to find the run speed.

    To assume that ingame run speed will be the same as the average run speed in real life will lead to inaccurate outcomes.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

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