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Is this a buy your way to fame and glory game?

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  • rhinokrhinok Anonymous, UTMember Posts: 1,798 Uncommon

    Originally posted by FrodoFragins

    Do all armor repairs require tribute rather than in game currency like gold?  If that's the case that's a bit shocking to me.

    No.  It looks like you can still repair some gear for gold.  I'll need to read the links Klazgon provided for a more clear understanding.

    Frankly, I'm impressed Mr. Smart and Klazgon have taken the item to specifically address the concern on an unofficial board.  I haven't yet had the time to read the links and I may still have some questions, but it's refreshing to see agreement that my concerns are valid and the devs are willing to discuss them.  

    ~Ripper

  • rhinokrhinok Anonymous, UTMember Posts: 1,798 Uncommon

    Originally posted by Klazgon

     




    Originally posted by rhinok






    Originally posted by dsmart



    I don't know if those comparison claims are even true, but I will investigate further because if that's how it is, then I don't like it. And if I don't like it, then something will most definitely be done to sort that out.





    Thank you very much for looking into it, Derek.  My level 30 Ranger's name is Zaxxon and all gear I have on the spreadsheet I linked is what I had equipped when I last played the game.  His profile and equipped gear can be found here.

    My gear comparison was taken directly from the Tribute Market page for the Ranger Full Gear Set - Level 30 and my subsequent comparisons were against the Tribute Market PvP gear.

    In my case, all of my gear was the best I could find, be rewarded, craft or buy through the auction house. It's possible I might have been able to upgrade a piece or two through crafting (I honestly can't remember which pieces, nor if they would have made any significant difference) had I not had to rely on pieces from other crafter that I couldn't obtain.

    Also, in my entire time playing, I never had the opportunity to run any instances due to there not being enough players online, especially in my level range.  As such, I have no idea what rewards may have been offered, if any.

    If Alganon was solely a PvE game I truly wouldn't care if the Tribute gear were better.  Since PvP is a major component now, it's a concern. I don't mind a time vs. $ revenue model (I also don't mind paying, btw), so if you find that one could obtain comparable gear in-game--for the same level player--that would be fantastic.  Unfortunately, I was unable to do so through my normal playing. Please note, the Tribute Market also offers the opportunity to purchase Epic gear.

    ~Ripper






     

    Your comparison between the Level 30 Tribute Gear Set and the gear you gain on the way to level 30 via questing, crafting, and drops will show a discrepency in stats in favor of the tribute gear set because that gear set was designed for player level 30-39. The stats are going to be more than someone without the set that just reached 30 because at the time we didn't have the functionality of gear that scaled with a players level, so we had to compensate for that by giving enough stats to make it a viable option until the player reached the next tier of tribute gear (40 in this case). As you level into the higher 30's your gear stats will become closer to that of the purchased gear set.



    Comparing your gear at level 30 to the PVP gear as it's shown in the Tribute Market will show vastly larger discrepencies in stat distribution because the stats shown for the PVP gear are that of a level 50 player wearing it. That PVP gear DOES scale with level and the stats will be far less for a player that isn't level 50 yet. Also of note is the fact that a player can't just hit level 10 and purchase PVP gear.  Each piece of PVP gear requires a certain Renown Level (This site explains the Renown System) in addition to a character level requirement before a player can equip it.



    On a side note, but on the topic of "Pay to Win" that you speak of... We did PVP testing with characters with PVP gear against characters without PVP gear and it was a close fight each time. Neither player had a distinct advantage due to gear. The main advantage of PVP gear will be that it costs a set amount of tribute each month to maintain rather than that cost fluctuating depending on how often you partake in PVP.



    PVE gear takes Battle Durability (separate from Adventure Durability, aka PVE Durability) which can only be repaired with tribute. Each PVP death while wearing PVE gear will cause your equipped PVE gear to take a hit in battle durability once you reach Renown level 2. No battle durability loss is incurred for players gear at Renown level 1. The amount of battle durability lost each death increases as your Renown level increases. This is because more PVP gear is available for use as you gain Renown Levels. PVP gear does NOT use battle durability and never needs to be repaired with tribute. PVP gear does have a set amount of tribute that needs to be paid every 30 days (maintenance) in order to continue using the gear though.



    In short, if a player plans on participating in PVP all the time then it would be wise to invest in PVP gear to make sure that they have a set amount of tribute that they will be paying over a 30 day period. If a player doesn't plan on doing much PVP or doesn't care about fluctuating costs for repairing their Battle Durability, based on how often they do PVP, then they can just use PVE gear and repair that gears Battle Durability as they see fit.

    If you have anymore questions or concerns, feel free to send me (Klazgon) a private message on the official Alganon Forums and I'll do my best to answer them.

    Thank you very much for your detailed reply.  This certainly does explain what I'm seeing, but I do have further questions:


    1. For the legacy Tribute Market sets (non-scaling PvE Gear), you're essentially selling players level 40 gear at level 30 because you want the gear to be viable for 10 levels. Since you now have the ability to scale gear, based on level, do you have any plans to revise the Level 20, 30, etc..  gear sets in the Tribute Market?  In such a case, the status would be lower @ level 30, which should be more comparable to a player who has attempted to stay current with his gear to level,  as opposed to being significantly better for potentially several levels. Most players will generally try to stay as current with their gear as possible.  So, at level 30, I'm wearing the best gear I could find appropriate to my level and the market gear should be generally comparable.  Even assuming the Tribute Gear scaled, is there in-game gear at the same level that's comparable? 

    2. I greatly appreciate you explaining the discrepancy between the PvP Gear and regular gear.  Based on Derek's comments, does this mean QO will explain this better in the Tribute Market?

    3. If one want so PvP on a regular basis, but doesn't want to pay money, one would need to have access to additional sets of gear (looted, crafted, purchased, etc..) in order to replace PvE sets that break.  Otherwise, one must pay real money either to repair PvE equipment that has lost battle durability or buy and maintain PvP gear.  Is that correct?

    All-in-all, based on what you've explained, it doesn't seem too imbalanced and generally alleviates my concerns.  It just needs clarification.  Thank you for taking the time to provide that!


     


    ~Ripper

  • KlazgonKlazgon Huntsville, OHMember Posts: 3



    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    Do all armor repairs require tribute rather than in game currency like gold?  If that's the case that's a bit shocking to me.

    All PVE gear has two types of durability, Adventure Durability (PVE) and Battle Durability (PVP). A death to an NPC will result in a loss of Adventure Durability and that can repaired with in-game gold. A death to another player character will result in a loss of Battle Durability for PVE gear (after you attain Renown Level 2) and that must be repaired with Tribute. Then, as stated above, PVP gear does not use Battle Durability so you can die as many times as you'd like without increasing the cost of maintaining that gear.

    As someone stated, you could just use gear until it's Battle Durability is done for then get different gear to use for PVP. Technically, you wouldn't have to throw your gear away once the BD is completely gone, as you can still use it for PVE if you so choose since you can continue to repair the AD with in-game gold. If the gear has no BD left and you are flagged for PVP then you gain no stats from that gear, but if you're not flagged for PVP and you still have AD left on that gear you will get the stats.

    Hopefully that clarifies it a little more.

  • KlazgonKlazgon Huntsville, OHMember Posts: 3


    Thank you very much for your detailed reply.  This certainly does explain what I'm seeing, but I do have further questions:

    [*]
    For the legacy Tribute Market sets (non-scaling PvE Gear), you're essentially selling players level 40 gear at level 30 because you want the gear to be viable for 10 levels. Since you now have the ability to scale gear, based on level, do you have any plans to revise the Level 20, 30, etc..  gear sets in the Tribute Market?  In such a case, the status would be lower @ level 30, which should be more comparable to a player who has attempted to stay current with his gear to level,  as opposed to being significantly better for potentially several levels. Most players will generally try to stay as current with their gear as possible.  So, at level 30, I'm wearing the best gear I could find appropriate to my level and the market gear should be generally comparable.  Even assuming the Tribute Gear scaled, is there in-game gear at the same level that's comparable? 
    [*]
    I greatly appreciate you explaining the discrepancy between the PvP Gear and regular gear.  Based on Derek's comments, does this mean QO will explain this better in the Tribute Market?
    If one want so PvP on a regular basis, but doesn't want to pay money, one would need to have access to additional sets of gear (looted, crafted, purchased, etc..) in order to replace PvE sets that break.  Otherwise, one must pay real money either to repair PvE equipment that has lost battle durability or buy and maintain PvP gear.  Is that correct?

    All-in-all, based on what you've explained, it doesn't seem too imbalanced and generally alleviates my concerns.  It just needs clarification.  Thank you for taking the time to provide that!

     

    ~Ripper

    1.) We currently have no plans to change the PVE gear sets in the Tribute Market, but I pitched the idea to our lead designer of possibly making them a scaling set similar to the PVP gear. We can only see where that goes.

    2.) We will definitely be looking into a way to make it more clear how the PVP gear works to curve any confusion.

    3.) See my above post =) (You snuck this post in while I was responding to other stuff)

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHMember Posts: 3,422 Uncommon

    Originally posted by Klazgon

     




    Originally posted by FrodoFragins

    Do all armor repairs require tribute rather than in game currency like gold?  If that's the case that's a bit shocking to me.



    All PVE gear has two types of durability, Adventure Durability (PVE) and Battle Durability (PVP). A death to an NPC will result in a loss of Adventure Durability and that can repaired with in-game gold. A death to another player character will result in a loss of Battle Durability for PVE gear (after you attain Renown Level 2) and that must be repaired with Tribute. Then, as stated above, PVP gear does not use Battle Durability so you can die as many times as you'd like without increasing the cost of maintaining that gear.

    As someone stated, you could just use gear until it's Battle Durability is done for then get different gear to use for PVP. Technically, you wouldn't have to throw your gear away once the BD is completely gone, as you can still use it for PVE if you so choose since you can continue to repair the AD with in-game gold. If the gear has no BD left and you are flagged for PVP then you gain no stats from that gear, but if you're not flagged for PVP and you still have AD left on that gear you will get the stats.

    Hopefully that clarifies it a little more.

     

     

    Yes that clarifies things.  I remember Derek Smart mentioning that there would be costs associated with PvP content and I take it that cost is from the purchase of PvP gear?  It sounds fair in that only people that want to PvP need to pay.  But it all depends on pricing.  Thanks for the info.

  • dsmartdsmart Florida, USAMember Posts: 358 Uncommon

    That's correct. Since PvP is free, the gear (if you want it) can be purchased.

    Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living.
    If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead
    ...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.

  • ComafComaf Chicago, ILMember Posts: 1,148 Uncommon

    Originally posted by Shadanwolf

    I have been digging into what costs real money in this game and found another significant cost.PVP which is now a central focus of the game, can cost you real money.Your PVP gear breaks with pvp use and the ONLY way to repair the pvp gear is.......REAL MONEY (tribute).I can't think of an idea that makes me run..not walk away from this game.

     

    Sad but true. Another horrible example of an mmorpg gone wrong - created and run by businessmen as opposed to creative developers who grew up, have read, understand the concepts of: THE GENRE of fantasy medieval rps.  This includes knowing what archetypes are selling points in any title (pet classes, assassins, paladins, etc.)...

     

    However, that being said, it amazes me at how much obvious ego goes into these titles, ego that is apparent because the changes or improvements that are made are visibly based on ideas presented by people who have no business being in the industry.  They show so little understanding of the genre. 

     

    If I didn't know any better I'd say the industry as it is today is mostly run by used car salesmen who saw the money WoW brought in, had no interest or understanding of high fantasy (God bless Tolkien because neither did Turbine Entertainment), but salivated over the ever illusive piece of the pie they thought they could grasp for themselves.  They naively assumed that you merely had to slap a few race class combos together in a pretend cut and paste world and voila - the money would roll in.  Seriously?

     

     The Alganon "team" is no different, except that they have put together a title that is far more limited than most mmorpgs on the market today.  As far as competition, while they could not compete with the pay to play market, they as well cannot compete with the F2P market - LOTRO, DDO, to name a few, have far more options that a sorely limited 2 race handful of classes model.  This here is nothing more than an attempt to hold on to something, or rather, to keep something barely above water so there is some sort of return on the investor's initial investment.  Mr. Smart is obviously not a fantasy mmorpg fan, otherwise we would immediately have seen more races and classes once he took over.  Before people spout how hard it is to add these options, let's all go back 10+ years to other titles and look at the plethora of class/race options. 

     

    These small titles can be great - but they have to bring something to the table to compete.  Business 101 concept here folks:  What does this particular product bring to the table that I can't get more of somewhere else?  Again, Mr. Smart is a business guy, probably fully aware of the limitations of this very weak title, and is doing what he can to remain positive so that the investors get something out of it without total loss - though I doubt that is even occurring.

     

    Someday, we are going to see a sandbox title that considers WoW to be the processed white bread that it is, and instead of copy pasting that overly done mmorpg, the developers go back to the drawing board and give us 3 realm or more multiple class race combination options set against a massive fantasy medieval world with well written lore taken from the planet which we all live on.  For Christ's sakes, it's not that hard to draw from Arthurian. Norse, Arab, Asian, etc. pantheons to create something awesome.

     

    Until then...

     

    /my 2 cents.

    image
  • dsmartdsmart Florida, USAMember Posts: 358 Uncommon

    Originally posted by Comaf


    Originally posted by Shadanwolf

    I have been digging into what costs real money in this game and found another significant cost.PVP which is now a central focus of the game, can cost you real money.Your PVP gear breaks with pvp use and the ONLY way to repair the pvp gear is.......REAL MONEY (tribute).I can't think of an idea that makes me run..not walk away from this game.

     

    Sad but true. Another horrible example of an mmorpg gone wrong - created and run by businessmen as opposed to creative developers who grew up, have read, understand the concepts of: THE GENRE of fantasy medieval rps.  This includes knowing what archetypes are selling points in any title (pet classes, assassins, paladins, etc.)...

    Nonsense.

    Every game needs to find a way to make money. Freeloaders need not apply. That's just the way it is. If you find another game that suits your purpose, then go play it. Games aren't going to cater to everyone of every demographic.

    PvP isn't and never was a focus of the game. It is just another feature and you don't have to engage in it.

    Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living.
    If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead
    ...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.

  • B1mbleB1mble WalesMember Posts: 148 Common

    This is true. Games need to make money to continue and progress.   It is a shame though that every method of making money is by copying the mechanics/systems of every other predesessor game out there.

    Table top D&D set the standard back in the day and I can't begin to list the crap that followed with the same d20 and H.P. system.  It took Chaosium to come up with Rune Quest to move things forward.

    The comment above of "Sad but true. Another horrible example of an mmorpg gone wrong - created and run by businessmen as opposed to creative developers who grew up, have read, understand the concepts of: THE GENRE of fantasy medieval rps.  This includes knowing what archetypes are selling points in any title (pet classes, assassins, paladins, etc.)..." is 100% accurate.  You could choose any game off this site and you could be 99% certain that it is a clone of every other rpg on offer, run by buisinessmen who know a good earner when they see one.

    They all have a skill bar;  they all have h.p.;  they all seem to involve warring kingdoms;  they all require you to grind mindlessly to complete bland mindless quests that a three year old could better; they all have the wall where suddenly the exp drops so you have to grind a year to go up a level; they all involve levels, a system that paper and dice games binned years ago; they all have that 'it improves at level XXX' which you will get to after 6 months of boredom etc etc.

    It is run by businessmen out to make a profit and these people have probably never read a fantasy novel in their lives.  Imagination and innovation are not required as long as people are prepared to pay for the same crap with different wrapping paper.

    At the end of the day more fool us for putting up with it and paying for it and kudos to those who have realised there is a sucker born every minute.  If this game (like 100's of others) is pay to win and you dont like it, don't play.  Their are plenty of other wastes of time to investigate.

    As to this game...tried it ... not for me...uninstalled.

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