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A polished AAA sandbox would get 50% of the market and dominate alongside WOW.

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  • HurvartHurvart ystadPosts: 565Member

    Originally posted by RajCaj

    I wish, but I highly doubt that.

     

    The current MMORPG market  isn't the same playerbase that existed in the late 90s. 

    The reason no AAA publisher has touched any of the sandboxes thats been put out there is because it can't get anywhere near 50% of the current market......and I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I tended to believe the Blizzard's & EA's of the world when it comes to market research, etc.

    I think IF a game publisher that had the moxy & development dollars cooked up a nice polished Sandbox UO type game that it could pull in probably about double the numbers EVE does....but thats about as far as the sandbox sub-genere goes.  There are too many former FPS, console, single player-casual type gamers now playing MMORPGs to convince half the current playerbase that full loot death, deep and detailed content, and FFA PvP system is a good idea.....thanks to the bar Blizzard has set (or lowered) for MMO gamers.

     

    The majority of the MMO playerbase now play MMOs to hack n' slash than to explore and persist in a virtual world.

    If they release a WoW-clone and cant compete as well as they hoped they will not get double EVE numbers. Perhaps they will the first month. But after 1-3 months 80% will be gone. They will return to WoW or try other games....

    Its better to focus on different players that dont prefer WoW or games like WoW.... Just like Ferrari cant compete with Toyota if they try to build better "Toyotas". Even if its a much bigger market and potential for profits much better.

  • pluzoidpluzoid midlandsPosts: 152Member

    WoW is successful in its own right, but not everyone is into WoW, hence the many people posting in this forum instead of playing MMO's :P

    A company with good backing needs to offer something that actually resembles what a MMORPG was suppose to be about:

    - Not about gear! About Story!

    - About having a Character living in a Virtual Universe that has a never ending story (AH AHAHAHAA).

    - Dont need alts because it has various activities that incaptivate you and not bore you to death or alt-holism.

    - A class system that allows for hardcore combatants (earn money through killing), Crafters who earn money through making stuff with variable stats based on the quality of materials used, so its not static and tedius, gratification through superior produce :P.

    And hybrids for people who like crafting crap for quick cash. This crap could be like small things like repair kits or potions, while let the hardcore crafters make vehicles and wepons and armor, cuz warriors such really make money selling there looted items off the people they kill, not weapons and armoursets, its not realistic tbh.

    Fending off armies of baddies to keep cities or planets occupied for resources would be a interesting variation from the time consuming grind of raids.

    Objectives could be random on a daily or weekly basic, to retreieve something important from within the stronghold of the baddies, (oooo) and they you get paid well for your services.

    Meh Im beginning to think that mmorpgs are just a flawwed genre, and nothing will sate my nurishment, I'll play SW:TOR when its out cuz its got jedi, and mebbe there storyline will be enough.

     

    - oh killing shouldnt be boring, like go here and get 10 nunas terminated, like a instance instead, but instead of getting loot to wear, get loot to sell for cash to buy crafted items off crafters, or rare materials to be used for crafters.

  • Luv_bugLuv_bug myob, MAPosts: 120Member

    The question is is there a publisher with the willingness to spend the money necessary to make a really great sandbox that is original and wholly unWoWlike in its look and feel? Are they willing to spend the maybe 5 years and thousands of manhours on a paradigm that, in its day, garnered nothing approaching WoW's success? Whose vision will they bet the farm on then? Experienced devs that have proven, as a whole, incapable of creating IPs and gameplay that have, thus far, challenged WoW in any serious fashion using a p2p model? Going f2p would generate subs, but would it generate enough to risk the funds on a true AAA sandbox game? An individual developer faces all these issues but without the financial strength a publisher has to risk a flop on an expensive design. Couple that with the fact the people who understand project management, programming, or running a business don't necessarily know what a  complete comprehensive sandbox actually entails and you heve the problems we have today. 

  • AmarantharAmaranthar OhioPosts: 2,430Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Luv_bug

    The question is is there a publisher with the willingness to spend the money necessary to make a really great sandbox that is original and wholly unWoWlike in its look and feel? Are they willing to spend the maybe 5 years and thousands of manhours on a paradigm that, in its day, garnered nothing approaching WoW's success? Whose vision will they bet the farm on then? Experienced devs that have proven, as a whole, incapable of creating IPs and gameplay that have, thus far, challenged WoW in any serious fashion using a p2p model? Going f2p would generate subs, but would it generate enough to risk the funds on a true AAA sandbox game? An individual developer faces all these issues but without the financial strength a publisher has to risk a flop on an expensive design. Couple that with the fact the people who understand project management, programming, or running a business don't necessarily know what a  complete comprehensive sandbox actually entails and you heve the problems we have today. 

    At this point, they should be seeing that the Clones aren't working anymore. If they don't see it yet, they will soon enough with this next round of releases. So the race is on, the flag has dropped. The first one to do it really well will be the one to compete with WoW. How well a Sandbox will compete is yet to be seen, but even an 80/20 split is well worth the investment. And I think that's very low, myself.

    Once upon a time....

  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Pile It High Town, LAPosts: 2,010Member Common

    Originally posted by Amaranthar

    Originally posted by Luv_bug

    The question is is there a publisher with the willingness to spend the money necessary to make a really great sandbox that is original and wholly unWoWlike in its look and feel? Are they willing to spend the maybe 5 years and thousands of manhours on a paradigm that, in its day, garnered nothing approaching WoW's success? Whose vision will they bet the farm on then? Experienced devs that have proven, as a whole, incapable of creating IPs and gameplay that have, thus far, challenged WoW in any serious fashion using a p2p model? Going f2p would generate subs, but would it generate enough to risk the funds on a true AAA sandbox game? An individual developer faces all these issues but without the financial strength a publisher has to risk a flop on an expensive design. Couple that with the fact the people who understand project management, programming, or running a business don't necessarily know what a  complete comprehensive sandbox actually entails and you heve the problems we have today. 

    At this point, they should be seeing that the Clones aren't working anymore. If they don't see it yet, they will soon enough with this next round of releases. So the race is on, the flag has dropped. The first one to do it really well will be the one to compete with WoW. How well a Sandbox will compete is yet to be seen, but even an 80/20 split is well worth the investment. And I think that's very low, myself.

    I very much agree with this.  The on-rails quest grind is dying, and really no longer popular even in "the-game-that-shall-not-be-named."

    Open worlds, I predict, are going to come back in a big way, and the newbie gamers will have a new wondrous experience.

  • gambe1gambe1 KrmeljPosts: 123Member

    WoW is an anomaly in MMO genre. Just polished sandbox is not enough even if it is AAA. There is so much different variabilis when it comes to mmorpg's, and you can't predict how players will react to the game. Eve for example is polished AAA sandbox, and it does not have 5mio subscriptions.

  • DaitenguDaitengu Wichita, KSPosts: 442Member

    Originally posted by pluzoid

    WoW is successful in its own right, but not everyone is into WoW, hence the many people posting in this forum instead of playing MMO's :P

    A company with good backing needs to offer something that actually resembles what a MMORPG was suppose to be about:

    - Not about gear! About Story!

    - About having a Character living in a Virtual Universe that has a never ending story (AH AHAHAHAA).

    - Dont need alts because it has various activities that incaptivate you and not bore you to death or alt-holism.

    - A class system that allows for hardcore combatants (earn money through killing), Crafters who earn money through making stuff with variable stats based on the quality of materials used, so its not static and tedius, gratification through superior produce :P.

    And hybrids for people who like crafting crap for quick cash. This crap could be like small things like repair kits or potions, while let the hardcore crafters make vehicles and wepons and armor, cuz warriors such really make money selling there looted items off the people they kill, not weapons and armoursets, its not realistic tbh.

    Fending off armies of baddies to keep cities or planets occupied for resources would be a interesting variation from the time consuming grind of raids.

    Objectives could be random on a daily or weekly basic, to retreieve something important from within the stronghold of the baddies, (oooo) and they you get paid well for your services.

    Meh Im beginning to think that mmorpgs are just a flawwed genre, and nothing will sate my nurishment, I'll play SW:TOR when its out cuz its got jedi, and mebbe there storyline will be enough.

     

    - oh killing shouldnt be boring, like go here and get 10 nunas terminated, like a instance instead, but instead of getting loot to wear, get loot to sell for cash to buy crafted items off crafters, or rare materials to be used for crafters.

     

    I have to disagree on it not being realistic. Mainly because people IRL CAN take up different jobs and skills. A hunter can be a leather worker. The founder of Aikido was a farmer while he taught. I personally can build computers, design a house, build the house, paint, sculpt, draw, cook, etc. Am I best best at any of it? no, atleast I can sew up a damn tear in my pants without having to hire a tailor.

     

    I personally would prefer a classless system that was part player skill and character skill based. I like the system Mabinogi has, even if I don't like the controls. it's very much classless. Eve is also technically classless, but  don't like that skills are trained in real time instead of based upon player action, and I like the controls even less lol.

  • gurugeorgegurugeorge LondonPosts: 480Member Uncommon

    Again, I have to harp on the fact that the distinction that's really apposite isn't "sandbox" vs "theme park", but rather "sim" vs. "game".

    There just aren't enough people who have enough time on their hands to live for substantial hours in a proper virtual world, to make that viable. 

    Most people have families, jobs, homes, etc., and just want something casual that has something of the feel of a virtual world (mostly, at least a feeling of persistence, that things are going on when they're not logged in).

    Fewer people have the time for true virtual worlds now.  The older folks here who are pining for it are no longer students.  Students nowadays have less time for it - not just because of rl pressures, but because there are other distractions (mobile phones and Facebook, for example) that take up some of the social space that the virtual world idea formerly served, but are more friendly to casual dipping in and out of (asynchronous, is I believe the professionals' term).

    It's a dead duck - or rather, a niche duck.

    Lovers of true virtual worlds, who do have the time to play them, will have to look to specialized games with smaller populations but more intimate dev attention and higher subscription rates (something like NWN's PWs on steroids). I think that will come, to fill in those niches (that are definitely there, just not big enough for AAA investment).  Generic MMO engines (e.g. something like a Hero Engine LE type of deal) will also facilitate that (photorealistic enough for jazz, suitable for building large but not massive PWs with).

  • MeowheadMeowhead New Carlisle, INPosts: 3,716Member

    Originally posted by gurugeorge

    Again, I have to harp on the fact that the distinction that's really apposite isn't "sandbox" vs "theme park", but rather "sim" vs. "game".



    I agree with you.  A good example of  'sandbox' vs. 'game/theme park' would be Second Life.

    It's the extreme of sandbox.  There's no real game, there's no guided developer content.  It's just a bunch of building tools and plop, there you go.

    So far as being an actual sandbox, it totally crushes any MMORPG into the dust... but at the sacrifice of not being a game at all (Other than what people build into it on their own)

    'Sim' is a much better moniker for what people are talking about, because you're simulating a virtual world in older MMORPGs... a complete sandbox has NO rules, and rules are what makes games.

    Just having crafting or combat systems are big sets of rules right there, so they're hardly 'true' sandboxes.

  • AmarantharAmaranthar OhioPosts: 2,430Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by gambe1

    WoW is an anomaly in MMO genre. Just polished sandbox is not enough even if it is AAA. There is so much different variabilis when it comes to mmorpg's, and you can't predict how players will react to the game. Eve for example is polished AAA sandbox, and it does not have 5mio subscriptions.

    I think you have a point on the "variables" involved, but I also think that a proffesional studio should be able to work it out.

    As far as EVE, that's not a complete world, it's space only. That's not really what most gamers want.

    Once upon a time....

  • Paradigm68Paradigm68 New York, NYPosts: 884Member Uncommon

    Need a fantasy based ver of EvE

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,865Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Amaranthar

    I think you have a point on the "variables" involved, but I also think that a proffesional studio should be able to work it out.

    See, that's what makes them professionals - they are not making 'polished AAA sandbox' as they know it is a project that would not pay off.

  • gurugeorgegurugeorge LondonPosts: 480Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Meowhead

    Originally posted by gurugeorge

    Again, I have to harp on the fact that the distinction that's really apposite isn't "sandbox" vs "theme park", but rather "sim" vs. "game".



    I agree with you.  A good example of  'sandbox' vs. 'game/theme park' would be Second Life.

    It's the extreme of sandbox.  There's no real game, there's no guided developer content.  It's just a bunch of building tools and plop, there you go.

    So far as being an actual sandbox, it totally crushes any MMORPG into the dust... but at the sacrifice of not being a game at all (Other than what people build into it on their own)

    'Sim' is a much better moniker for what people are talking about, because you're simulating a virtual world in older MMORPGs... a complete sandbox has NO rules, and rules are what makes games.

    Just having crafting or combat systems are big sets of rules right there, so they're hardly 'true' sandboxes.

    Indeed.  And note that the popularity of Second Life shows that while there is a market for a pure sandbox, in a way, the market is of ordinary people who aren't interested in a fantasy sim or an s-f sim (as probably most of us here would be) - but an ordinary RL SIM!!!!

    We geeky "hardcore" types would scoff at that, because we love our elves, our spaceships and superheroes; but that's what one of the few true "sandbox" MMOs in the world shows, very clearly.

  • ManasuManasu TanelornPosts: 153Member

    Originally posted by Paradigm68

    Need a fantasy based ver of EvE

    Yeap!

    image
    A Blizzard developer once said:"If Player Housing was a 5 minute job then it would definitely be in World of Warcraft by now"

  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Pile It High Town, LAPosts: 2,010Member Common

    Originally posted by Manasu

    Originally posted by Paradigm68

    Need a fantasy based ver of EvE

    Yeap!

    Yet they can do the complex and unnecessary phasing instead.  Go figure.

    U.O. had housing, and that was back in 1998.

  • xpiherxpiher Indianapolis, INPosts: 3,311Member

    Originally posted by Manasu

    Originally posted by Paradigm68

    Need a fantasy based ver of EvE

    Yeap!

    Its coming. Its called world of darkness. 

    image
    Games:
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  • HolaHolaHolaHola AlbertslundPosts: 68Member

    Take a look at ArchAge for an AAA sandbox game.

    Playing: League of Legends!

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by xpiher

    Originally posted by Manasu

    Originally posted by Paradigm68

    Need a fantasy based ver of EvE
    Yeap!


    Its coming. Its called world of darkness. 



    Other than it's being written by CCP, is there anything, anything at all that anyone can point to that gives any details on the type of game WoD is going to be?

    Economy? PvP? Storylines? Player governments? Anything?

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • ErstokErstok LOL wut, NYPosts: 523Member

    SWG Pre-CU, without SOE.

    image
    When did you start playing "old school" MMO's. World Of Warcraft?

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member

    Anyone mentioned Fallen Earth? It is a pretty good sandbox game, if you ask me. Mainly PvE but it has some PvP elements.

  • InterestingInteresting Porto AlegrePosts: 950Member

    The reason I didnt mentioned EVE, Fallen Earth, Darkfall, etc is because they dont fit my description of "polished AAA sandbox".

     

    Those are nowhere near good enough, or close enough to what I originally talked about.

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,953Member

    Fallen Earth is a sandbox?  I seem to remember wacking on rocks with my mining pick and doing chains of quests, exactly like I did in WOW.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,671Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Paradigm68

    Need a fantasy based ver of EvE

    The genre's stale! It's all copy cats! There's no innovation! It's jsut more of the same!

    But whenever a title is pointed out that has the features that are clamoured for, the argument is almost that it falls short because it isn't another class-based fantasy game with quests and epic raids.

     

    Gotta love it. :)

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • SwaneaSwanea Vegas, NVPosts: 2,368Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Sanity888

    It's called Second Life.

    A real sandbox.

    Eve, DF, MO, ER are all themepark sandboxes tbh.

     

    And no.  A polished AAA sandbox would not get 50% of the market.

  • spankybusspankybus Orlando, FLPosts: 1,154Member Uncommon

    I think someone is seriously overestimating just how much free time your average gamer actually has...

    Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
    www.spankybus.com
    -3d Artist & Compositor
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