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A polished AAA sandbox would get 50% of the market and dominate alongside WOW.

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  • Luv_bugLuv_bug Member Posts: 120

    The question is is there a publisher with the willingness to spend the money necessary to make a really great sandbox that is original and wholly unWoWlike in its look and feel? Are they willing to spend the maybe 5 years and thousands of manhours on a paradigm that, in its day, garnered nothing approaching WoW's success? Whose vision will they bet the farm on then? Experienced devs that have proven, as a whole, incapable of creating IPs and gameplay that have, thus far, challenged WoW in any serious fashion using a p2p model? Going f2p would generate subs, but would it generate enough to risk the funds on a true AAA sandbox game? An individual developer faces all these issues but without the financial strength a publisher has to risk a flop on an expensive design. Couple that with the fact the people who understand project management, programming, or running a business don't necessarily know what a  complete comprehensive sandbox actually entails and you heve the problems we have today. 

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,785

    Originally posted by Luv_bug

    The question is is there a publisher with the willingness to spend the money necessary to make a really great sandbox that is original and wholly unWoWlike in its look and feel? Are they willing to spend the maybe 5 years and thousands of manhours on a paradigm that, in its day, garnered nothing approaching WoW's success? Whose vision will they bet the farm on then? Experienced devs that have proven, as a whole, incapable of creating IPs and gameplay that have, thus far, challenged WoW in any serious fashion using a p2p model? Going f2p would generate subs, but would it generate enough to risk the funds on a true AAA sandbox game? An individual developer faces all these issues but without the financial strength a publisher has to risk a flop on an expensive design. Couple that with the fact the people who understand project management, programming, or running a business don't necessarily know what a  complete comprehensive sandbox actually entails and you heve the problems we have today. 

    At this point, they should be seeing that the Clones aren't working anymore. If they don't see it yet, they will soon enough with this next round of releases. So the race is on, the flag has dropped. The first one to do it really well will be the one to compete with WoW. How well a Sandbox will compete is yet to be seen, but even an 80/20 split is well worth the investment. And I think that's very low, myself.

    Once upon a time....

  • gambe1gambe1 Member UncommonPosts: 123

    WoW is an anomaly in MMO genre. Just polished sandbox is not enough even if it is AAA. There is so much different variabilis when it comes to mmorpg's, and you can't predict how players will react to the game. Eve for example is polished AAA sandbox, and it does not have 5mio subscriptions.

  • DaitenguDaitengu Member Posts: 442

    Originally posted by pluzoid

    WoW is successful in its own right, but not everyone is into WoW, hence the many people posting in this forum instead of playing MMO's :P

    A company with good backing needs to offer something that actually resembles what a MMORPG was suppose to be about:

    - Not about gear! About Story!

    - About having a Character living in a Virtual Universe that has a never ending story (AH AHAHAHAA).

    - Dont need alts because it has various activities that incaptivate you and not bore you to death or alt-holism.

    - A class system that allows for hardcore combatants (earn money through killing), Crafters who earn money through making stuff with variable stats based on the quality of materials used, so its not static and tedius, gratification through superior produce :P.

    And hybrids for people who like crafting crap for quick cash. This crap could be like small things like repair kits or potions, while let the hardcore crafters make vehicles and wepons and armor, cuz warriors such really make money selling there looted items off the people they kill, not weapons and armoursets, its not realistic tbh.

    Fending off armies of baddies to keep cities or planets occupied for resources would be a interesting variation from the time consuming grind of raids.

    Objectives could be random on a daily or weekly basic, to retreieve something important from within the stronghold of the baddies, (oooo) and they you get paid well for your services.

    Meh Im beginning to think that mmorpgs are just a flawwed genre, and nothing will sate my nurishment, I'll play SW:TOR when its out cuz its got jedi, and mebbe there storyline will be enough.

     

    - oh killing shouldnt be boring, like go here and get 10 nunas terminated, like a instance instead, but instead of getting loot to wear, get loot to sell for cash to buy crafted items off crafters, or rare materials to be used for crafters.

     

    I have to disagree on it not being realistic. Mainly because people IRL CAN take up different jobs and skills. A hunter can be a leather worker. The founder of Aikido was a farmer while he taught. I personally can build computers, design a house, build the house, paint, sculpt, draw, cook, etc. Am I best best at any of it? no, atleast I can sew up a damn tear in my pants without having to hire a tailor.

     

    I personally would prefer a classless system that was part player skill and character skill based. I like the system Mabinogi has, even if I don't like the controls. it's very much classless. Eve is also technically classless, but  don't like that skills are trained in real time instead of based upon player action, and I like the controls even less lol.

  • gurugeorgegurugeorge Member UncommonPosts: 481

    Again, I have to harp on the fact that the distinction that's really apposite isn't "sandbox" vs "theme park", but rather "sim" vs. "game".

    There just aren't enough people who have enough time on their hands to live for substantial hours in a proper virtual world, to make that viable. 

    Most people have families, jobs, homes, etc., and just want something casual that has something of the feel of a virtual world (mostly, at least a feeling of persistence, that things are going on when they're not logged in).

    Fewer people have the time for true virtual worlds now.  The older folks here who are pining for it are no longer students.  Students nowadays have less time for it - not just because of rl pressures, but because there are other distractions (mobile phones and Facebook, for example) that take up some of the social space that the virtual world idea formerly served, but are more friendly to casual dipping in and out of (asynchronous, is I believe the professionals' term).

    It's a dead duck - or rather, a niche duck.

    Lovers of true virtual worlds, who do have the time to play them, will have to look to specialized games with smaller populations but more intimate dev attention and higher subscription rates (something like NWN's PWs on steroids). I think that will come, to fill in those niches (that are definitely there, just not big enough for AAA investment).  Generic MMO engines (e.g. something like a Hero Engine LE type of deal) will also facilitate that (photorealistic enough for jazz, suitable for building large but not massive PWs with).

  • MeowheadMeowhead Member UncommonPosts: 3,716

    Originally posted by gurugeorge

    Again, I have to harp on the fact that the distinction that's really apposite isn't "sandbox" vs "theme park", but rather "sim" vs. "game".



    I agree with you.  A good example of  'sandbox' vs. 'game/theme park' would be Second Life.

    It's the extreme of sandbox.  There's no real game, there's no guided developer content.  It's just a bunch of building tools and plop, there you go.

    So far as being an actual sandbox, it totally crushes any MMORPG into the dust... but at the sacrifice of not being a game at all (Other than what people build into it on their own)

    'Sim' is a much better moniker for what people are talking about, because you're simulating a virtual world in older MMORPGs... a complete sandbox has NO rules, and rules are what makes games.

    Just having crafting or combat systems are big sets of rules right there, so they're hardly 'true' sandboxes.

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,785

    Originally posted by gambe1

    WoW is an anomaly in MMO genre. Just polished sandbox is not enough even if it is AAA. There is so much different variabilis when it comes to mmorpg's, and you can't predict how players will react to the game. Eve for example is polished AAA sandbox, and it does not have 5mio subscriptions.

    I think you have a point on the "variables" involved, but I also think that a proffesional studio should be able to work it out.

    As far as EVE, that's not a complete world, it's space only. That's not really what most gamers want.

    Once upon a time....

  • Paradigm68Paradigm68 Member UncommonPosts: 890

    Need a fantasy based ver of EvE

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by Amaranthar

    I think you have a point on the "variables" involved, but I also think that a proffesional studio should be able to work it out.

    See, that's what makes them professionals - they are not making 'polished AAA sandbox' as they know it is a project that would not pay off.

  • gurugeorgegurugeorge Member UncommonPosts: 481

    Originally posted by Meowhead

    Originally posted by gurugeorge

    Again, I have to harp on the fact that the distinction that's really apposite isn't "sandbox" vs "theme park", but rather "sim" vs. "game".



    I agree with you.  A good example of  'sandbox' vs. 'game/theme park' would be Second Life.

    It's the extreme of sandbox.  There's no real game, there's no guided developer content.  It's just a bunch of building tools and plop, there you go.

    So far as being an actual sandbox, it totally crushes any MMORPG into the dust... but at the sacrifice of not being a game at all (Other than what people build into it on their own)

    'Sim' is a much better moniker for what people are talking about, because you're simulating a virtual world in older MMORPGs... a complete sandbox has NO rules, and rules are what makes games.

    Just having crafting or combat systems are big sets of rules right there, so they're hardly 'true' sandboxes.

    Indeed.  And note that the popularity of Second Life shows that while there is a market for a pure sandbox, in a way, the market is of ordinary people who aren't interested in a fantasy sim or an s-f sim (as probably most of us here would be) - but an ordinary RL SIM!!!!

    We geeky "hardcore" types would scoff at that, because we love our elves, our spaceships and superheroes; but that's what one of the few true "sandbox" MMOs in the world shows, very clearly.

  • ManasuManasu Member UncommonPosts: 212

    Originally posted by Paradigm68

    Need a fantasy based ver of EvE

    Yeap!

    Sandbox MMORPGs that are not very well-known but definitely worth a look:

    Ryzom, Haven and Hearth, Xsyon, The Repopulation, UO private shards, Mortal Online, Darkfall 1 remakes (New Dawn or Rise of Agon), RPG MO, Project Gorgon, EQ: Sanctuary (custom  server)
  • xpiherxpiher Member UncommonPosts: 3,310

    Originally posted by Manasu

    Originally posted by Paradigm68

    Need a fantasy based ver of EvE

    Yeap!

    Its coming. Its called world of darkness. 

    image
    Games:
    Currently playing:Nothing
    Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
    Past games:
    Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
    Xpiher's GW2
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    Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
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    Warhammer - Xpiher

  • HolaHolaHolaHola Member Posts: 68

    Take a look at ArchAge for an AAA sandbox game.

    Playing: League of Legends!

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by xpiher

    Originally posted by Manasu

    Originally posted by Paradigm68

    Need a fantasy based ver of EvE
    Yeap!


    Its coming. Its called world of darkness. 



    Other than it's being written by CCP, is there anything, anything at all that anyone can point to that gives any details on the type of game WoD is going to be?

    Economy? PvP? Storylines? Player governments? Anything?

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • ErstokErstok Member Posts: 523

    SWG Pre-CU, without SOE.

    image
    When did you start playing "old school" MMO's. World Of Warcraft?

  • YamotaYamota Member UncommonPosts: 6,593

    Anyone mentioned Fallen Earth? It is a pretty good sandbox game, if you ask me. Mainly PvE but it has some PvP elements.

  • InterestingInteresting Member UncommonPosts: 972

    The reason I didnt mentioned EVE, Fallen Earth, Darkfall, etc is because they dont fit my description of "polished AAA sandbox".

     

    Those are nowhere near good enough, or close enough to what I originally talked about.

  • Nerf09Nerf09 Member CommonPosts: 2,953

    Fallen Earth is a sandbox?  I seem to remember wacking on rocks with my mining pick and doing chains of quests, exactly like I did in WOW.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247

    Originally posted by Paradigm68

    Need a fantasy based ver of EvE

    The genre's stale! It's all copy cats! There's no innovation! It's jsut more of the same!

    But whenever a title is pointed out that has the features that are clamoured for, the argument is almost that it falls short because it isn't another class-based fantasy game with quests and epic raids.

     

    Gotta love it. :)

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • SwaneaSwanea Member UncommonPosts: 2,401

    Originally posted by Sanity888

    It's called Second Life.

    A real sandbox.

    Eve, DF, MO, ER are all themepark sandboxes tbh.

     

    And no.  A polished AAA sandbox would not get 50% of the market.

  • spankybusspankybus Member UncommonPosts: 1,367

    I think someone is seriously overestimating just how much free time your average gamer actually has...

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    www.spankybus.com
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  • mmogawdmmogawd Member Posts: 732

    A game that offers both themepark and sandbox play is what the market needs.  Why  not offer content for both playstyles?

  • vesuviasvesuvias Member UncommonPosts: 151

     

    Good thread and lots of great suggestions throughout. 

     

    A few comments on the Second Life style MMORPG or the AAA version of Mine Craft:

     

    As the tools for Development get better the ultimate sandbox comes closer and closer to reality. You see the developers of the themepark MMOs are "Playing" the game you want to play. They are making real changes to the world, they are building real sandcastles, they are creating the "content" that you want to create and we are paying them for the pleasure. The tools they use are insanely complicated  and it can sometimes take years of study to even begin to understand some of the technical issues involved. Game Development is hard and certainly not all sunshine and roses. But make no mistake all "developers" love their meta "sandbox". The "Ulitimate Sandbox" game is the game of creating your own MMORPG.

     

    As the tools get better and better their ease of use will greatly increase. "Second Life" isn't a MMORPG but it did prove that if you provide easy enough of tools users will fill your worlds for you. What worlds would you create if you had ease of use access to WoW's art assets and world creation tools. What if they generalized their combat system and provided hooks for easy scripting making it easy to modify any detail or do something completely different. I have heard the developers of WoW mention plenty of times about how they are building a "platform" as much as a world.

     

    The explosion of cloud computing and ever increasing simplification of the creation tools may produce the ultimate sandbox sooner rather than later. I certainly see a viable business game model built around providing the tools, assets, and server time so that users can build their own worlds and gaming system(Second Life Style). Make it easy enough, provide a solid base example game, and the Armchair MMO crafters will come out of the woodwork. It doesn't even matter if they represent a small fraction of the playerbase, they would be creating content for the other 99% of your subscription holders (or use some other business model).

     

    Look at the amount of "free" code development that is thrown at Emulators. Imagine how much better it would be if the clients weren't specifically built to thwart reverse engineering and instead were fully documented and designed to be built around.


  • TyrrhonTyrrhon Member Posts: 412

    What does sandbox mean to you? What about WAR? You can do quests, grind mobs, do battleground or open world PvP, that is decent amount of options.

    You want more? Give example. Almost anything you come up with will have lasting impact on the world and you are no longer speaking about sandbox but malleable world.

    And that brings FFA PvP. And that is nowhere near 50%.

    Edit: EvE not good enough for you? How? It is good enough for developers to not even try to compete.

  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,383

    Why do so many people make the two assumptions that
    a) You need Millions of players to be successful
    and
    b) that you have to beat WoW

    First off, you have to define what is successful. I don't think it's necessarily the same thing as financially viable, and may not even be the same thing as just raw server population.

    Games need enough paying players in order to keep the servers running and fund additional development. They need enough playing players in order to keep the world alive. That number of players will vary based on the size of the virtual world, and the size of your development team. So long as the suits don't get too greedy, it doesn't take a lot of subscriptions (or sales on a market).

    And you don't have to draw all your players from WoW. There are other players out there that don't play WoW. There are players who play WoW and also play other games. There are players who would quit WoW. The long and short of it is, WoW is irrelevant to new games: Wow isn't stealing the players, you don't have to lure players away from WoW. You just need to focus on being the best game you can be, and let WoW do their own thing. Most people's hard drives are big enough to have more than one game installed at a time, so you don't have to focus on getting people to quit WoW.

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