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WoW's endgame is the very thing I dislike about it
impiro
Member Posts: 204
As most people know WoW is praised mainly for its rich and content filled endgame. However, it is this endgame that keeps me from playing the game. I have played WoW for quite some time, but every time a char would nearly hit endgame, I would roll a new one. Now this was both during vanilla and BC and even though Cath is offering some cool features and a lot of my friends play it, I still can’t motivate me to play it because of the endgame.
Why I dislike the endgame? Because it just feels like a giant waste of time. My main problem is probably because raiding is for BETTER gear. I really do not understand why people find it fun to do the same raid over and over to get the best gear and then, when everybody has the EXACT SAME best gear, will try to get the next ever better gear that came with the update.
For me, the endgame would be so much more interesting if the raid simply dropped vanity items. Remember in Vanilla that some players used to have those legendary weapons, like the sword with the electric spark all over it? I mean such items. Items that are special for their prestige value and look awesome but are not actually necessary to play the game. This would actually make all the old raids from previous expansions useable and worth visiting again, and could even make exploring worthwhile again if Bliz would add hidden caves with awesome loot in it all over the game world.
But where are the stats? Well stats come mainly from crafting and can be applied to the special gear gained from raids, like upgrade schematics. It would make crafting necessary and make the player economy flourish. The crafting should need a lot of valuable materials and hard to get schematics that can all be found within the raids and within the world in very exclusive places. This will make raiding the same raid multiple times for the materials worthwhile.
The reason why I would like this so much more is because I do not give a damn about stats. Especially when everyone can get them easily and there is constantly one armor set that is used by most people because it gives the best stats. I honestly do not see the fulfillment in raiding over and over again for the best gear, just so you can raid more…
Also, my system could offer harder raids as there is no unfair advantage of having the gear or not. This way the annoying mainstream players who want the best gear after 3 hours of playing won’t complain the game is too hard.
A short example that actually came from the misleading development videos of WAR:
You kill are very hard boss in the game, and you get his ugly head as loot and apply that on your armor.
To me, and flame me if you disagree sincerely, this system would hardly make the game less interesting for most of the playerbase. The content is still there, however now there is just a little more depth to crafting and you are not raiding the same content for gearscore but for the achievement in itself.
Comments
If they added some sort of progression system then the endgame wouldn't seem totally useless.. like the legendary weapons from LORTO or just making the gear grind a part of the leveling process (and making that process much much longer). Level caps are the problem here, they are too low these days and too easy to obtain, EQ started it.
I played Asheron's Call for years without ever hitting the cap on my main character.. was it level 192? I was still able to do all the content though from around level 80.
Eq 1 had the slowest lvl progression of all the games out there these days (when it started) and invented the Alternate Advancement System something u could still lvl at cap just get new abilities and make old ones better for like forever . But these days all the games have pvp and thats where it gets inbalancing .
I do not like the current endgames as well , i mean theres no sense (to me at least) in raiding for Gear if you cant do anything else beside raid for even better Gear after. But ppls seem to get used to a System they get to know in theyre first Mmorpg they play along time so , today its all about WoW style gear grind end game wich i wish wouldn be the only thing u could do then.
I Wish there would be other means to put that raid earned gear to use . Like being able to gain Alternate Advancement points faster with good raid gear at max lvl but thats gone since EQ days
. Since pvp needs to be in every mmorpg out there due to balancing i guess. But u could as well just let the AA System count for PVE .
This is where I liked SWG, even if you was top lvl, you could still harvest (if you was into that), make your weapons and armour and sell them or even help build towns. Shopping for stuff you needed/wanted in your house and parties in cantinas. Ok so it doesnt cater for all but if you have this plus end game content like your raids and pvp, just makes it more intresting in developing your character and his/her background beyond normal end game content.
"He's no good to me dead."
I agree to a point but I do enjoy raiding until I beat every boss. Once you beat every boss(a couple of times) it just turns in to a grind and then wows other endgame(the pvp) is an even worse of a grind as you play just get to pvp gold. You even get pvp gold if you lose.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
Honestly, thanks to the direction taken by Street as submitted in Cataclysm, progression to Level 60 is breadcrumbed and very fast. Think of a greased rollercoaster. Since Burning Crusade (why do you think you can't fly in Silvermoon and Exodar?) and Wrath weren't touched, things at least branch off a bit and slow down. But once you hit Cataclysm content, you're back on the ride and everything else takes a back seat, thanks to the new zones and phasing. I got sick of the Abyssal Deeps real fast.
My highest level character is standing pat at level 83, but I'd rather drive forks in my eyes that continue on the fastrack to level cap that Blizzard has created here. I'm done. They've gutted the game I enjoyed and I couldn't care less what they do from here on out.
"Soloists and those who prefer small groups should never have to feel like they''re the ones getting the proverbial table scraps, as it were." - Scott Hartsman, Senior Producer, Everquest II
"People love groups. Its a fallacy that people want to play solo all the time." - Scott Hartsman, Executive Producer, Rift
I PvP for prestigious titles, achievements and mounts.... never for "gold".(first time ever I heard this one lol).
I stand in awe every time I meet a Brutal or Relentless Gladiator. The one only that made it to the top.
That's why PvP folks in ladder based competitions always keep playing, like chess or football.
The bragging PvP titles and mounts always were my thing. Smooth responsive gameplay did the rest.
A lot of people will defend the end game for the reason that they don't know what else end game should be about because that's all they've ever known and would scoff at the idea of innovation. Saying things like "Good sir, I believe you are in the wrong game genre." just to make you think you should go play a different genre of games because they are too afraid to discuss solutions with you. In reality MMORPG end games for WoW could be anything. It could even be horde vs. alliance whale back ride racing in the ocean all the way around Kalimdor while fighting off sharks and sea monsters and if you're horde, keeping the alliance from boarding your whale with their whale so they don't take control of it. Granted, this would have to be made a fun enough end game.
But no, no one will hear of this "preposterous idea, good sir!" in an MMORPG for fear of losing their precious purples and oranges. I guess the experience of the ocean spray as they ride the epic tides of an ocean on a whale back, and fighting hordes of alliance off their whale is too absurd for their tastes! So I shall humbly bow and cancel my subscription! For I do not care for the epic repetitive treadmill of fighting the same bosses over and over.
Yeah I'm just making this stuff up. But I seriously do have a problem with end game in WoW and how important getting gear is. I wish people would just lighten up. I think people would lighten up if the gear was lightened up by nerfing stats on the best gear. So that it could be all about fun and happiness and getting along. Just playing the game to hang out with friends. There's enough competition and seriousness to go around how people compare others based on who's the best. For instance if you aren't very good then people are very judgemental and call you a noob and stuff. It's crazy how this system works. In other games if you aren't very good then people usually don't care and are willing to help you get better. In WoW they will go out of their way to find you, inspect you, and if your gear isn't raid gear then they feel the need to act offended and to insult you. My wild guess is some guy in greens entered into a heroic 5 man queue with them but that doesn't mean everyone in greens does that! I just generally see that attitude amongst WoWers. It's just the way it's designed.
WoW PVE endgame has always been about 'kill the Boss, get the Loot'.
But you need to belong in a guild that you like to hang out with.
Those who are in it for the 'gear' as it were will get tired of the content, no question. But you add the social element and the content will last for years. Me and my RL friends still talk about the Wrath content we did (even though Naxx 2.0 was awful).
We still talk about that one time my friend forgot she was on cube duty in Magtheridon and wiped our potential 1st kill at 3am on a work day.
That social element is like all the other social media (facebook, twitter etc) out there and can grab people and will not let them go.
Do you know why WoW is so popular? Cause everyone played it at one point.
I ain't playing WoW now, but you know what? Having your RL friends talk about it (most of my friends went back ><) is the strongest pull to the game you can have.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Don't you think guilds can hang out and have fun without the endgame being about gear? If gear is truly not the only reason for playing, then many people wouldn't mind discussion of a different form of end game. Usually when I see people talking about a different endgame, I see lots of "You threaten my epic gear score. Please quit talking about WoW NOW so that my gear will rest peacefully on my character sheet."
If people are so laid back and chillaxing with their guild, then most people wouldn't expect anybody to care whether someone wants end game to be about something else. My point is not to say that everybody is this defensive about it. I'm just pointing out my personal observations about it. Perhaps I have only ran into the majority of people that ARE into WoW for the gear on the internet.
It is about 'char progression' which RPG is all about; through levels or gear.
For myself, I didn't really care about gear as long as my char had good enough gear to clear the next content.
Gear was a means to an end which was to participate with my friends on downing the next big baddie that came from Blizzard.
If my gear wasn't good enough then I can be a burden on my friends This happened due to RL stuff for me and all of my friends at one point or another. Kinda hard to raid when you have weddings/baby/new house etc.
Gear Score is mainly used on 'pugs'. If the guild/raid/class leader can't trust you when you say 'My gear is good enough for this content' then the guild/raid has bigger problems.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Endgame isn't only about character progression. It's about keeping players interested and busy after they have gotten to the end of the game. Character progression through better gear is one way to keep players busy. I'm saying that the way it is now in forums is that people generally get defensive when you talk about endgame using other ways to keep players to keep playing and having fun because it doesn't involve what they're used to (gear being the main focus). It's usually because all they know is WoW. It causes players to insult people just because of their gear when they weren't even doing anything. It's the weirdest thing. Like a witch hunt if you're at the highest level wearing in greens.
Thank you impiro for your thread. End Game is, in my opinion, the one weak area in WoW. I have played WoW for 6 years and hit 60,70, 80, and now 85 well within time to full-well experience Blizzard's "on-trick pony, the raid. It is to the point now where that's truly all you do. Yes, yes, Blizz has thrown a few things out there for non-raiders to do, but really, come on what extrinsic reward do you get besides maybe a pet or a mount? I am quite well over this now ladies and gentlemen.
The next aspect I see that has become rather tiresome is this, Game X,Y,or Z is a WoW clone, therefore do NOT play this game! You know, most of that tripe got started on this forum and continues today as about the only thing ill-informed folks use against new games out there. No game and I mean no game since 2004 is truly a stand-alone product. WoW has borrowed from other games. Look, when folks take liberty to respect a game and use some of those ideas tweaked a bit, that, to me is a form of flattery and respect, not a "clone"! WoW is the MOST respected game in computer history up to this point and hell yeah some of the game's ideas will be modified in many of upcoming games. WHY? Because just about every developer worth his/her salt has or still is playing WoW. In 2003, when WoW was being drawn up and tested, just about everyone at Blizz was playing EverQuest. We are people, we enjoy entertainment and I dare say that you can find Blizz employees playing many other mmo's besides their own!
Back to impiro's post though, and possibly attempt tying my thoughts together here. If today's games coming out between March 1st going forward, would study the "end-game" philosophy a bit and not fall into the void WoW has created with raiding is the only real aspect for progression in-game. Today, one must level to the top, (how long did that take kids? 2, 3 , 4 days this time?),then begin collecting gear at a minimum item level before being able to step into heroic instances. Fine. Now, the fun really begins, huh? You do every instance in heroic, how many are there gang? How many times must you go in with your guild, or, GASP! PuG those same instances over and over again until you are either bleeding from the eyes or crying in agony as boredom takes your mind away! Of course if a survey was taken right now on any given server whether people would play a game with a long grind, I dare say very few would say oh heck yeah, you betcha! But there you go a bona fide 100% grind just for level 346 items so you may then walk into those wonderfully designed and "hallowed" raid halls! Oh, but that grind ain't over yet punk, now you gotta prove you're "hard-core" and clock in at given scheduled times to run thses damned..uh..I mean wonderfully and quite beautiful instance over and over and over and over again until you gain that truly magnificent tier gear! OMG the leetness of it all!
That's WoW's end-game and that's WoW folly, in my eyes. 12million people play. However 12 million do NOT all play at the same time, do they? Numbers are numbers, they don't lie WoW is king and ALL hail the king, but there hasn't been a decent number 2 choice out there. SoE dropped the ball with EQ 2, Vanguard was a historic mistake, and LotRO was ok, but didn't have the "moxy" to hang in there. So, with no competition you see, you will play what the folks at Anaheim believe you love the most. Really, ALL 12 million of us? Maybe, cross your collective fingers, maybe we'll finally see a game emerge after 2011 as a true number 2 and a righteous alternative to the really boring end-game we have now in WoW.
In a market economy it is pretty darned important that consumers have choices and companies have some competition. I applaud Trion's little opening salvo. It was a brave move, and yes years from now we'll all be laughing about it either as the beginning of a new golden age for mmo's or just another foolish mistake made by a brash new company with quite a few dollars to work with. So, all of you folks that are involved with game designing, story writing, and video development, please, please create an end-game with choices. That's truly how you might stand that WoW clone tags and jam it right back in faces of the ill-informed. Create an end-game for many not just for a elite group of hard-core raiders. There are other aspects of mmo's that are just as challenging and even more rewarding.
I say good luck to all those future games about to go live this year, may each and every one have a chance to challenge the 8000 lb. gorilla and at least hang in there with a product that offers a different type of end-game experience.
~Wall of text is now OFF~
Alyn
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
I agree. I loose all motivation to play endgame as you grind to look like every other level cap character. They just keep dangling that carrot out there, "oh you spent months grinding for the best gear well hear is the new best gear let the grinding start all over again" Playing the endgame and beating bosses is fun but not 50 times.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
This is his point , its lame that gear is the motivating factor or the reason to progress. He saying is should be about the game not gear playing the same damn raids thousand times to get "gear"
Aye Master Rock, sooner or later ye must pay dee piper, laddie!
LOL, but seriously can't we be a bit more creative as to how we might gain skill and gear? I think so. EQ 2 although they sort of messed up ealry on fixed some things and have improved, but it's a bit too late for them now. I have played EQ 2 for over 2 years off and on and there are some well thought aspects of the game I truly see as alternatives to the raid grinding one must do in WoW. Your best bet would be to go thru and research EQ 2 a bit and see what they. No, I'm not saying go play it. You can, but there are some other games about to pop with devs that have have worked on the original EQ, Warhammer, and even good ol' WoW, that will offer what I hope will be some interesting end game content that will be varied and actually developed for more than just raiding progression!
/salutes Master Rock
Alyn
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
Honestly everyone should agree with that. Endgame should be about the actual content, in any mmo not just wow. Realistically however, Blizzard like many other games need a way of keeping people subscribed. And gear being the carrot is the best way for them and is quite common in the themepark sub-genre. In a perfect world we wouldn't need to run a raid or dungeon a million times. Maybe as these games evolve more we will get to the point where it is about the content and the experience people have together playing them an less about rewards and repetitive mind numbing play sessions.Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Everytime I turn around the Gorilla is heavier than the last. I think I'm noticing a funny meme here.
I don't think the WoW clone hate started on this site. I have an older brother who is always like "durp that looks like a WoW clone" and he doesn't read these forums. I think it's more of a natural response that people who have played WoW and are done with WoW say because they don't want to go back to play WoW. I honestly don't understand it though because every game should be researched until you know for sure what a game is like before you shrug it off. Watch gameplays, commentaries, eventually try it yourself for free. That's the only way to truly acquire a real opinion about a game.
One thing the WoW Clone hate is right about though is that if every game truly copy pastes WoW in every way, then there won't be any innovation to end game. This leads to the genre getting stale and been there done that. Endgame must truly innovate to find other ways to keep players having fun and interested for the genre to grow and change. So in complete agreement there!
Also I find that the OP's suggestion about nerfing gear stats would be about right on par for making WoW a better endgame.
Totally love your post too Alyndale. I can't wait until MMORPGs get a different endgame.
Nice response Plasm. Yeah, in some regards games should be researched. and yes there actual evidence that we all have seen that there a few games that have done the unthinkable and did truly copy WoW gaming model almost exactly. This is really not the case in most triple A mmos about to be released now. Again, actually get in there and technically play the beta as it is intended, with a critical eye and an open mind. You will soon see more differences than similaristies. The word similarity means it is close, but NOT an exact copy. Trion's Scott Hartsman is a respected member of the mmo world he knows just about all the "BIG-WIGS" at Blizz and visa-versa. There is mutual respect given between both camps here in reality. I doubt seriously he would be a party to stealing someone copyright. He's been a round well too long and worked for the the first of the great games when was a dev for EverQuest.
Now, with the point about MMORPG.COM, well it was my opinion we were speaking about here and yeah most probably any first references to WoW clones often come from the home-base at any rate. But, to be honest the initial complaints one reads are from folks that have NOT researched as you have suggested. What I read here is just maginified so many times over what one might see on official forums.
/bows with dignity and respect
Alyn
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
Yeah, so it's not just me noticing that people get defensive about it then.
I dare say Master Rock there are many. many of those that do not post on forums that feel this way. I hear it in vent all the time, so it's my feeling that it's just getting very old....
Alyn
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
I used to be a hardcore raider at some point. My guild disbanded for lack of things to do. We used to have content for 4 to 5 nights during Burning Crusade. We only had content to raid for not even 2 nights in WotLK. I remember someone brought it to Ghostcrawler, and he was told to roll an alt. Roll an alt. So you could... raid the same content 4 times a week?
I was already jaded of doing Naxx, then Ulduar, before Trial of the Crusader happened. I bailed telling myself there is no way I'm gonna farm ToC multiple times a week for 6 months. Their biggest mistake, on top of releasing less content, were those heroic badges rendering every raid instances of previous tier obsolete. In Burning Crusade, you still had players raiding tiers 4, 5, 6 or ZA up until patch 3.0.3 (Release of WotLK). They may have changed it for Cata... but I've moved on ;-)
BAM! That's exactly my point and that is what happens eventually. Now, before this year, how many times have we returned to face the same song, but different verse?
Alyn
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
It is a pity that Everquest 2 and Vanguard do not get the credit for being different as far as the end game goes anyway even their path to end game is good too. I have played WoW and I honestly believe the former two are better games but 12 million disagree with me and those two games languish and that coupled with stupid developers that make silly f2p options that don't help the game none to achieve its potential.
I've played since Vanilla. For Cataclysm, I got my main to 85, ran heroics, got rep, and ran a few raids. Then I looked in the mirror and asked myself what I was doing. The answer was the exact same crap I'd been doing since the release of WoW. It's just not fun anymore. The game as a whole hasn't changed much in six years. It's still a good game despite my feelings. It's a me problem and not a WoW problem.