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Originally posted by CyanSword How can an opinion based on a subjective enjoyment of a product be 'wrong'? I am confused
It can't. But it can be disagreed with.
Mind you, most of the conversations on any forum generally consist of person A telling person B why their opinion is "wrong".
Originally posted by CyanSword How can an opinion based on a subjective enjoyment of a product be 'wrong'? I am confused
As the guy above me said, it can't. But it can be biased and it can obviously be influenced.
This isn't a paid access site, yet they earn revenue. The question many have been wondering (this week especially) is, how much does that revenue influence their "opinions" and "honesty"? - especially in regard to "reviews".
Originally posted by Brenelael Originally posted by travamars Originally posted by maskedweasel Originally posted by travamars This reminds me of the many richard ahoshi post that are spent complaining about people not agreeing with him, and nothing about gaming. Either agree or dont post seems to the message around here.
That wasn't what he said at all. He said you can agree or disagree with him on the forums all you like, just realize that his columns are opinions while his reviews are more critical, and he won't write a negative article just to preach to the choir. He will be honest in his articles rather than just write what he thinks the community wants to hear.
If you can agree or disagree then whats the problem?
Apparently someone hurt his feelings and didnt agree with something he said or he wouldn't have written this.
It would be nice to read an "Honest" article (opinion or review) of a game released by a AAA company. Just dont see that happening, so when someone questions the "honesty"' of said article it becomes an "opinion"
Has anyone given a review "honest or not" of FFXIV? wonder why.
Wow, how can people miss the whole point so completely? What he has been acused of is lying or being in the pocket of the game company suits for simply stating his opinions. I would think the title of this piece, "Honesty" and the 10 or so times he stated that he's just giving his 'honest' opinions would have clued you in. He enjoys a wide variety of games and his columns reflect that. In his reviews he tries to be a little more objective and that shows as well. It's not people disagreeing with him that he has an issue with... It's the morons who accuse him and others that write for this site of lying like they have some agenda when all they are doing is stating their opinions.
These guys and gals that write for this site do a great job so cut them some slack. You can disagree with them all you want just don't accuse them of lying for simply stating an opinion.
Yeah you really missed the point. In fact you didn't even respond to my post. Maybe you only half read it. Who knows. but since you are quick to defend go ahead and defend and answer what i asked in my post. Dont just pick and choose what you want to reply to in a post. Here i'll narrow it down for you to make it easier.
...........It would be nice to read an 'honest' article (opinion or review) of a game released by a AAA company. Just don't see that happening, so when someone questions the "Honesty" of said article it becomes an "opinion"
"Has anyone given a review (honest or not) of FFXIV? Wonder why."
So that I can try to get a little perspective here, let me talk about a reviewer who I respect highly, but in a different genre. Namely, Roger Ebert (film critic). The interesting thing is that I disagree with Mr. Ebert a lot. Nevertheless, it is always useful to read his reviews because I have a much better idea after reading them as to whether I will like the film in question. It's because his reviews have a consistentcy about them that I can measue against. For example, (and perhaps understandably for someone who watches a lot of movies) he approves of films that try to do something original and risky. From his description of those aspects in a film I can often decide that I won't bother this time --- or, that maybe it is time to experience something unusual in a particular case.
Of course Roger Ebert has a sterling reputation for indepent reviewing. And this despite the fact that movie houses and film studios do advertise in his newspaper --- which would seem to be a conflict of interest of at least some sort. He has seemed to be more forgiving in his reviews since he became ill, but that hardly seems to have anything to do with advertisting revenue at the Chicago Sun-Times. The automatic assumption that anyone working for a firm that receives revenue from an advertiser must be biased towards that advertiser's products is a reasonable suspicion but isn't a universal truth.
So if I had a criticism of house reviews on this site I wouldn't start with assuming bias. No, I would ask myself whether the reviews have been helpful in decision making. For an MMO some money but moreover a lot of time must be invested. Some guidance is desperately needed. To judge the reviews I would ask: Do they get into some depth on the game? Do they give specifics rather than generalizations? Is enough of a picture painted to give a idea of the feel of the game? Or is an inevitably complex subject reduced to a couple three paragraphs of buzz words?
But on another tack...
I have always had the opinion that anybody who accuses someone of cheating - or in this case - dishonesty in search of a buck - condemn themselves. They may be right --- but accusing someone is a matter of FACTS, not OPINONS. And it is hardly proof at all to say their reviews are always too rosey. Maybe that is where their head is. Opinions are not facts. Do you have a transcript of a directive from a superior to a reviewer demanding that he lighten up his reviews for a given company, for instance? Etc, etc. Well here is MY opinion. If you accuse someone of lying, and do not have actual facts to back it up, I can say I don't know for certain that the person is question is being dishonest, but I DO KNOW for certain that you have made an unsupported accusation. And that is a BAD THING.
So if there is anybody on this forum who can actually produce some facts...I would like to hear them. Haven't seen many so far in this discussion. Mostly, "it must be so cause that's what I think". Bleh.
---------------------------Rose-lipped maidens, Light-foot lads...
I don't have any problem with it. It is just his personal opinion and nothing more. I'm suprised people have not yelled troll or hater yet.
The main problem is this.
A game review should be objective to the facts and not subjective to your opinion.
The last review I read that you wrote is about Vindictus. Your first sentence is your opinion and I almost stopped reading there. But I gave you the benefit of a doubt and read on anyway. Then more and more opinions, almost ranting.
I think if you re-structure your review by stating the facts first about the game, then move to a more general scope of the genre and the market, and only then, you give your opinion. This way, your readers will know about the game first and not what you think of it.
Example: First paragraph should contain features about the game, the game play, graphics, developers, behind the scene, etc. -- basically what you've observed that others can easily verify. Then the next paragraph should contain how it compares to other games in the genre, pricing, game time, play style, customer service, etc. Then your last paragraphs will contain your opinion about the game.
If you review your reviews, you'll find that you mix all these aspects and it quickly became hard to read due to your opinions flying everywhere.
Just my 2 cents.
Originally posted by BillMurphy Is that about right Bill? Do I get anything for paraphrasing?
More or less.
I just wanted to have something out there that I can point back to down the road when I need to, for folks who slap on their conspiracy theory garb whenever I might get excited about something.
Hmmm. This comment reminds me of the controversy surrounding the pre-release of STO. You guys here at MMORPG.com seemed really psyched about it. I wonder now that you have the benefit of hindsight if your feelings on that game have changed.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
What would be the point of writing anything but the truth? To be a propaganda machine?
Opinion isn't necessarily truth. I mean, you can view it as your "true opinion", but your opinion, your point of view, may be skewed by misinformation or misinterpretation. However, telling us your real opinion is being honest, and that helps us. Anything else does not.
I don't find your columns to be hard to read or inconsistent. You might point out different sides of an issue, but to me, it is clear that's what you are doing. Frankly, I don't read most game reviews by most people because I'm not interested in the game up front. Most of the "early impression" reviews are too hopeful for what actually comes out - but I won't really complain about being people being hopeful, except to say some developers may need a wake-up call while they are working on their games and not after they are released.
You have to put negative comments in their place. All you can do is run a self-check to see where you stand if you think the accusers are more than the norm. There are a bunch of people that are just way out in left field that post, trollers, and people who simply misunderstand what you are saying. Most people don't even read all that you wrote, get stuck on a particular phrase and react to it - a product of our "sound bite" trained times, I think. I'll be honest here, I think there are a lot of very intelligent posters in these forums - and I think there are a lot of people that use their brains to keep their skulls from collapsing, and that's about it. I'm not cutting them any slack in my statement because I believe that they CAN think, they just refuse to do so before they post.
Have played: Everquest, Asheron's Call, Horizons, Everquest2, World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall
For all you people who seem confused about what an opinion actually is Wikipedia is here to help you.
An opinion is a subjective statement or thought about an issue or topic, and is the result of emotion or interpretation of facts. An opinion may be supported by an argument, although people may draw opposing opinions from the same set of facts. Opinions rarely change without new arguments being presented. However, it can be reasoned that one opinion is better supported by the facts than another by analysing the supporting arguments.
An opinion may be the result of a person's perspective, understanding, particular feelings, beliefs, and desires. In casual use, the term opinion may refer to unsubstantiated information, in contrast to knowledge and fact-based beliefs.
Bill has written an article telling you his articles are based on his honest opinions of the subject matter.
1. An opinion is not a fact.
2. An opinion can't be wrong, though it may change.
People will respect you for choosing Option 1 or 2, as long as you don't continually confuse a an opinion with a fact.
You will never reach your destination if you stop and throw stones at every dog that barks~ WC
There was a really good point made on this thread. Most MMORPG gamers dislike most MMORPGs. Reading this forum, this certainly seems to be the case. Yet very rarely do I see a review lower than a 6 (Darkfall is the only one in recent memory) even on the games everyone seems to agree have serious issues. What's the point of having a 1-10 scale when 7 means "highly flawed, but could be fun to some people" and 9 means "Polish and mass market appeal of WoW"? And 5 means "absolute mess."
I don't think it's anything intentional or deliberate by the reviewers, but it is an interesting observation. Maybe reviewers get to pick the games they review, and therefore only review MMO sub-genres they really like. I don't know.
I do respect your opinion for what it is, an opinion. And I respect you even more for writing this piece to kind of state your feelings on the subject. I think the issue comes from feeling like you are having things shoved down your throat, and that is what it has felt like somewhat with DCU at times.
I'm really glad you like it, and having been in the beta for a few months I can say I don't care for it but it does have some good things going for it. My personal problem with the reviews was I felt that they glossed over at times and and only focused on the positive parts of the game. That's just my opinion, just as you had yours. I just regret that I got my account banned for stating how I felt on the subject, but at least in the end my account was restored. Maybe some good can come out of this entire issue for the staff, site, and community.
Really? I mean is this article for real? How sincere are we supposed to believe this is when the home page is completely wallpapered with DCUO? You would have to be braindead to think for even a second that all of the fanfare DCUO has been recieving is not somehow linked to the boatload of cash that was given to put up that advertisement on the home page.
Honesty? Come on..lets be really honest and admit that reviews are motivated at least in part by the arrangements between developers and reviewers to "push" a product. Home Depot wouldn't make any money if they went around telling you that one tool is better than another...all of your vendors would pull out!
Now, I can't fault a reviewer or SOE for doing their job. SOE has to push their product to make money, and a reviewer has to push a product that they are told to push. Its business! Every car company does commercials saying their cars are the best, and they have some celebrity spokesperson saying it. Of course that person is paid to say those things...its just business. Much like a reviewer is paid to offer a review in a positive light. Not being dishonest...but rather withholding negatives and emphasizing the positives.
Keep in mind that in spite of what Bill, or any other review says...the gamers still hold the power to a degree. Regardless of how you try to spin it...a twitch based hack and slash with leveling thrown in that plants it roots on a single console is not going to survive for very long. DCUO will sadly go the way of Tabula Rasa inside of a few months. Lack of content and superior "MMO's", (or should I say true MMO's) releasing in the coming months will tank this title faster than you can say Star Wars Galaxies.
The greatest irritation with situations like this is that the developers will not suffer...we will. If you figure the game retails for around 50.00 dollars. They sell 1 million copies, that is 50 million. From each person you get an average of 1 month in subscription fees...that is another 15 million. The game then tanks and they still walk away with a profit, or at least cut their losses to a satisfactory level.
So in conclusion...
Bill, don't backpedal you don't need to. Your doing your job. People need to understand that the MMO industry overall is no longer making what they think people want..they are making what they think people will buy at face value. Don't believe me? When was the last time you saw an open beta? Nuff said
Considering that saying
"A.) Don’t understand the point of opinion pieces here at MMORPG"
This was the most condenscending line I have ever read in the article. You make it appear like the opinion piece you write has heavier weight than everyone elses. Instead of saying "People do not understand the point of an opinion piece" you decided to include the site itself.
This idea of "everyone has an opinion" is from the social element to the "Democratic" model. How I was raised and where I came from, while you had the right to make an opinion in basic conversation, it did not count in the grand scheme of things unless I was running thing and was in a position of making a change.
In fact, it was customary that those who are "Educated, Trained and Experienced Professionals" had the right to give an opinion about an occupation in scientific and problem solving collaborations. Anyone who did not fit the role did not have a right to state or declare an opinion.
Example...If a person who has a Doctorate In Computer Science was in a room, only he and others who had a computer science degree or related degree had a right to make an opinion towards an element to a problem. Everyone else had the right to keep their mouth quiet. We don't tell you how to do your job, don't presume you know how to do mine.
However, thanks to the Internet and Society, you have pseudo-intellectuals and pseudo-professionals everywhere...People who have no Education, No Professionalism but very little skill who think they are as good or better than those with all the experience and credentials.
Of course, the democratic model that professionals use to "Solve" this problem existing over the internet and through public opinion is to simply let "outsiders" tear each other apart in forumboards and blogs. Thats what the internet is for, to cage those who like to waste time while those who really wish to learn seek out those who know more or know best....and continue to go after real, professionally scrutinized publications.
Sorry, but it came across to me as though you were trying to act like you were "Somebody" and decided to include the "Entire site" rather than talk about your own column itself. You make it look like people who don't know how to write an opinion in MMORPG.COM know how to write an opinion elsewhere. People are People and habits are habits and acting pretentious should not become you.
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Originally posted by Etriador You've been gushing about this game since late November. I simply cannot expect you to provide an objective look at the game. I'm not trying to jump on you for that experience as I'd have a hard time being objective about games I enjoy playing, but when I read a review, that's what I expect. You say that you'll rein it in, but if you were honest about giving an objective review, you'd hand it to someone else who hasn't had the kind of contact you've had with the games or the people who created it.
I agree with this point. Bill, you already provided a "You must buy this game!" opinion on DCUO. You've been very public in liking the game. That's fantastic for you. But it is hard to take an objective review on a title you know the reviewer loves. If you start the review with, "I love DCUO" then that's fine: bias stated. But if you try to be objective but aren't, it raises questions about the validity of the review.
For instance, in your launch preview you said, "I’m hesitant to put this in as negative, as I’m not sure it will affect me personally" regarding the limited content in DCUO. Although technically there are 6 different ways (i.e. mentors) to get to the level cap, the reality is that if you did that you'd see a lot of content repeated as mentors have very few unique missions. But the way you phrased it is anything but objective - "this isn't a big thing because it probably won't impact on me".
If you want to write a subjective review, please do, but be sure to label it as a subjective review at the time.
(My personal bias is that DCUO isn't worth a sub fee and SOE is handled the launch badly.)
All I know is that, as far as DCU goes, there has been an incredible amount of hype and articles coming from this site. It seems there has been a lot more of it for DCU than there was for Cataclysm, which is ass backwards considering the player base WoW has with not knowing how well DCU will do . I guess Blizzard doesn't need to "encourage" gaming sites to pimp their game like soe does.
And before anyone says that advertising doesn't effect ratings, 3 words: Kane. Lynch. Gamespot.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
Nothing worse than beeing called a liar, must be really frustrating.
However, when you are paid by and know the same people whose products you write about, I can not be sure you are not influenced.
What I do is the same I do with tv news, I try to filter opinions out and combine the facts I get with facts from other media. In my opinion, true independent journalism is very rare, in normal news but especially in game journalism.
So as an example, I might read a featured review (paid), to get a general picture and a more well written article - Thank you for that. Then I go on various forums to get more info and opinions - It is a windy path but with practise you can maneuver around the flamers.
If I go to buy a new car, the salesman will only tell me good things and that is his job - Mine is to take his claims and go verify it with more independent sources.
Painting every review (again not saying you do) rose red, will help move you from the journalist category which has some credibility atleast and into the salesman category.
So, it is unfair if some call you liar, but you cant expect people to see your (or any journalists) articles as completely independent.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Originally posted by travamars Originally posted by Brenelael Originally posted by travamars Originally posted by maskedweasel Originally posted by travamars This reminds me of the many richard ahoshi post that are spent complaining about people not agreeing with him, and nothing about gaming. Either agree or dont post seems to the message around here.
Here's your answer: Everything you've ever read on this site is just someone's opinion. There is no such thing as an 'honest' opinion just like there is no such thing as a 'dishonest' opinion, they are just opinions... period. An opinion can not be right or wrong as it's just someone's personal viewpoint on a subject. Narrow enough for you Skippy?
Seems like these days people don't understand what a critic is exactly. A critic is someone who tells you basically whether he/she likes what he/she played, watched, ate etc. They are not here to give an "objective" view of the game. They are paid to give their view. If you find yourself constantly disagreeing than it should be obvious you have different taste. In that case stop following that critic and find one that has taste closer to you. After all why would you follow the advice of someone who doesn't share your taste in things with the intent to buy said product.
Originally posted by Brenelael Originally posted by travamars Originally posted by Brenelael Originally posted by travamars Originally posted by maskedweasel Originally posted by travamars This reminds me of the many richard ahoshi post that are spent complaining about people not agreeing with him, and nothing about gaming. Either agree or dont post seems to the message around here.
Wow this must be very hard for you to understand. I said answer what i asked. That would be the comment with the ? at the end of it. You know, making it a question. All you've done is repeat the same thing you've been posting and somehow think its an answer to something. And by the way, what you posted has been posted a thousand times already, everyone knows what an opinion is. Try answering posts and not trolling the same replys.
Originally posted by Brenelael
I just wanted to point out there is a difference between a dishonest opinion and an honest opinion.
Case and point:
Your wife asks you if the pants she's wearing makes her look fat.
Honest opinion. * Yeah, yeah they do.*
Dishonest opinion. *Nah, they look great honey*
Its clear which one we'd all choose.
Its the difference between the truth and a lie, just, as an opinion.
While the King appreciates honesty; he declares any combination of 'honest opinion' to be hyperbole at best. There cannot be a truthful abstract. That kind of defeats the purpose of giving one's opinion is it not? If you are honest and you know a fact, it cannot be an opinion. Now can you give your absolute feeling about something?
Yes of course.
Is it your most honest feeling? Well, the thing is honest can only apply to you and your own realm. To everyone else your honest opinion is at best a heartful mishmash of hear'say.
So be honest with yourself and just be clear when you are giving factual information as opposed to your very best opinion.
Honest opinions are framed from the start to be blown up balderdash to everyone outside from the little voice(s) in your head.
DOTH DECLARE YON FRUIT-FILLED KING!
Will develop an original MMORPG title for money.
Originally posted by DrNo172000 Seems like these days people don't understand what a critic is exactly. A critic is someone who tells you basically whether he/she likes what he/she played, watched, ate etc. They are not here to give an "objective" view of the game. They are paid to give their view. If you find yourself constantly disagreeing than it should be obvious you have different taste. In that case stop following that critic and find one that has taste closer to you. After all why would you follow the advice of someone who doesn't share your taste in things with the intent to buy said product.
Problem is when the review is skewed by advertizing or personal relationships with game developers, it is utter hogwash. Was this one? Sure smells of it. The banner ads don't help.
Integrity is a better word than objective. There are no objective reviews since they're opinion. Like calling someone a slutty virgin, it's an oxymoron.
But an uninfluenced or untainted review is to be expected. Just look at IGN, they're laughable because you can see it in their reviews. They should say "This biased review brought to you by the game developer" on the headline. Hell, IGN should just cut out the middle man and have the devs write their own reviews.
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It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me.I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Originally posted by Hyperwolf Opinions rarely change without new arguments being presented. However, it can be reasoned that one opinion is better supported by the facts than another by analysing the supporting arguments.
And there is one of the key things. A well written piece will make it quite clear what are facts, what are opinions, and how one leads to the other. Also someone who allows emotion to play too great a role in there analysis of the facts is likely to arive at an opinion that is not well supported by facts.
Originally posted by Gorilla Originally posted by Hyperwolf Opinions rarely change without new arguments being presented. However, it can be reasoned that one opinion is better supported by the facts than another by analysing the supporting arguments.
There are many situations where it is possible to have "Valid" opinions without anyone ever being able to make the statement that such opinion is "well supported by facts". And I think this is what people are saying when they describe something as "just an opinion". For example, my opinion of Avatar, I think, was decidedly not mainstream. I found the story unimaginative and the FX over the top and distracting if anything. But it was just my opinion. On the other hand if I stated in the course of describing the film that the Navi (sp?) were green, that would be a factual error. That factual error would hardly render my opinion wrong (perhaps suspect though since perhaps I was actually reviewing a different film!) "Well supported by facts" can also be a trap of sorts. If I say that in Avatar the Navi are prodominantly a blue color, which made me more sympathetic for them and increased the drama of the film, well, that statement seems to be well supported by facts, but, it is pure balogna.
In conclusion, a review can be factually accurate, yet still be dishonest if the opinion stated is colored by the need, for example, to be either supportive of an advertiser or the need to become more popular with his audience. If a mmorpg.com reviewer aligned his opinions very closely to the spirit of the posts on this website, we could say his opinions seemed to be in line with his vocal readership --- but do we in this case have, a priori, any more reason to believe his opinions are "honest" than if his reviews are consistently over the top positive whereever an advertiser is involved? It's extremely hard to "know" what another person is really thinking. Frankly, I think if my life were encompassed by playing and reviewing mmorpgs, wouldn't I tend to be enthusiastic about new games, at least at first? Doesn't sound unreasonable at all to me. But that is JUST AN OPINION.