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General: Honesty

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  • Originally posted by maskedweasel

    Originally posted by Strap

    I understand the concept of an opinion. What has become painfully clear is that I can safely label these opinions as ALWAYS overly positive and ALWAYS in favour of the developers goal to sell their game or achieve financial success via transactions. This site makes little or no attempt to PROTECT us as gamers from the excesses of developers.

     

    This is a PROBLEM because one function of a review is to HELP the gamer make a good judgement on the game before parting with cash. You do NOT help me make a good decision and so I have largely stopped reading the columns.

     

    Instead, it is the forums that provide real information even though they can be chaotic to negotiate.

     

    The community spotlight pieces are HENCE very useful, I'd suggest to have more of these and only occasional opinion from the site's employees.

    I think thats the worst idea ever.  Most of the spotlights are on general MMO conversations,  but in truth, even if they were to spotlight a particular posters comments,  it wouldn't be any better unless you knew the poster specifically.  Would you have believed me any more if I were spotlighted on the front page with a review of DCUO that corresponded with what the MMORPG.com staff said?

     

    Probably not,  because here,  unless the review is pessimistic, or paints the game in a bad light,  people would just think MMORPG.com staff paid the poster,  or they only highlight the posts they like,  and that would bring a whole new set of issues.

     

    The only thing people could truly count on would be that they need to make their own decisions based on the information given.  If they come here and read all the negative postings and heed them only,  then they'll walk away with a very poor overview of MMORPGs total.  If they gauge games based on overall reviews across the board,  then they may be disappointed a la an AOC fiasco where reviews were usually written based on the first 20 levels, and the MMO portion was severely lacking.

     

    It was because of some of the posts I read on this site that kept me away from Global Agenda for so long,  but someone I trusted told me to give it a shot, and I love that game now.  I came here asking about it with a lot of mixed views, but it wasn't until I got up the nerve to take a chance did I really find out whether it would be worth it.    

     

    Fair comments and on reflection, you are probably right.

     

    Having said that. I find myself getting to know the frequent posters on these forums and finding like-minded individuals. It is a bit, as in your example, like finding a friend you trust and them making what turned out to be a good recommendation.

     

    The comunity spotlight DOES help me find like-minded people (there are SO many threads and boards here you often miss interesting threads) so in that sense they do help me find games I think are good value for money.

  • LawlmonsterLawlmonster Dallas, TXPosts: 953Member Uncommon

    Finding reliable information about the games I'm interested in playing usually comes from players, not from journalists. Just saying.

    "This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)

  • TyrokiTyroki Wellington, FLPosts: 183Member

    MMORPG.com needs to be more like Top Gear :

    You get paid to bring up the pros and cons but can damn anything that deserves it. Some companies really don't like the Top Gear guys for some of their previous damning 'reviews', but that never stops them.

    The real trouble is that there are just far too many sites like this one.

    MMO's played: Ragnarok Online (For years), WoW (for a few weeks only), Guild Wars, Lineage 2, Eve, Allods, Shattered Galaxy, 9 Dragons, City of Heroes, City of Villains, Star Trek Online (Got someone ELSE to pay for it), Champions Online (Someone else paid), Dofus, Dragonica, LOTRO, DDO and more... A LOT more. I've played good AND bad. The bad didn't last long. :P

  • severiusseverius sacramento, CAPosts: 1,514Member Common

    Originally posted by Tyroki



    MMORPG.com needs to be more like Top Gear :

    You get paid to bring up the pros and cons but can damn anything that deserves it. Some companies really don't like the Top Gear guys for some of their previous damning 'reviews', but that never stops them.

    The real trouble is that there are just far too many sites like this one.


     

    There are a ton of sites like this one because publishers have billions of dollars to throw away on crap like this rather than actually making decent games.  That's ok, MMORPG.com will do their job and help SOE sell more copies of another crap game which, in turn, will guarantee that SOE will continue with their shovelware for the forseeable future. 

    I think part of the problem is that we mistake the writers here and across the sites for being journalists.  They are bloggers, paid tho some may be, they are bloggers which is a far cry from a professional journalist.

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  • UnsungTooUnsungToo Lake Worthless, FLPosts: 276Member

    I come here to get news, not get news on how news is got. Do yer thing, write gaming articles, opinions or whatever they're called. Just give us the news, you don't have to explain why. At least not to me.

    Everybody has their own opinion, even the readers. Keep on keepin' on. :)

    Godspeed my fellow gamer

  • EtriadorEtriador St Croix Falls, WIPosts: 1Member

    I don't normally post on this site, but this recent rash of defensive articles about DCUO forced my hand.  This article appears as sheer hubris, striking back at the unwashed masses who dare question how your articles are perceived.

    If you want to write stories and inside articles about the games like DCUO where you're excited about it, fine.  That's your prerogative and it's your site.  And you have been honest about enjoying DCUO in your weekly articles.  But let's actually talk about honesty for a moment.

    Your launch preview of DCUO has a list of Pros and Cons and ends with a "two thumbs up" graphic with the words "Go out and pick this bad boy up as soon as you can. This is a game you can't live without."  Honestly, I thought that was the review.  What about that article doesn't scream review?  How is that "honest"?

    And in this article, you say that you'll be doing the review of DCUO in a few weeks and then scant words later, say that you've been forwarding concerns/complaints about the game to Tony Jones and Chris Cao.  It's not your honesty that I question, it's your objectivity.  You are too close to the game and the people who created it to review it without that influence.

    You've been gushing about this game since late November.  I simply cannot expect you to provide an objective look at the game.  I'm not trying to jump on you for that experience as I'd have a hard time being objective about games I enjoy playing, but when I read a review, that's what I expect.  You say that you'll rein it in, but if you were honest about giving an objective review, you'd hand it to someone else who hasn't had the kind of contact you've had with the games or the people who created it.  Right now, it has the appearance of a quid pro quo, which I believe isn't the case, but obviously from MMORPG's multiple defensive articles, certainly appears that way to a number of people.

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Warren, MEPosts: 3,996Member

    Originally posted by travamars

    Originally posted by maskedweasel


    Originally posted by travamars

    This reminds me of the many richard ahoshi post that are spent complaining about people not agreeing with him, and nothing about gaming. Either agree or dont post seems to the message around here.

    That wasn't what he said at all.  He said you can agree or disagree with him on the forums all you like,  just realize that his columns are opinions while his reviews are more critical,  and he won't write a negative article just to preach to the choir.  He will be honest in his articles rather than just write what he thinks the community wants to hear.

     If you can agree or disagree then whats the problem?

    Apparently someone hurt his feelings and didnt agree with something he said or he wouldn't have written this.

    It would be nice to read an "Honest" article (opinion or review) of a game released by a AAA company. Just dont see that happening, so when someone questions the "honesty"' of said article it becomes an "opinion"

    Has anyone given a review "honest or not" of FFXIV? wonder why.

    Wow, how can people miss the whole point so completely? What he has been acused of is lying or being in the pocket of the game company suits for simply stating his opinions. I would think the title of this piece, "Honesty" and the 10 or so times he stated that he's just giving his 'honest' opinions would have clued you in. He enjoys a wide variety of games and his columns reflect that. In his reviews he tries to be a little more objective and that shows as well. It's not people disagreeing with him that he has an issue with... It's the morons who accuse him and others that write for this site of lying like they have some agenda when all they are doing is stating their opinions.

     

    These guys and gals that write for this site do a great job so cut them some slack. You can disagree with them all you want just don't accuse them of lying for simply stating an opinion.

     

    Bren

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    beat();
    }

  • bisurgebisurge Anchorage, AKPosts: 168Member

    I think there should be more people writing featured articles on this site. I've noticed that the MMORPG writers have been fairly unanimous in their opinions. I want to see somebody who differs.

  • delateurdelateur Spokane, WAPosts: 156Member

    Okay, I get it, you want us to feel that you're an honest person, and I respect that, Bill, so I'll tell you exactly how you go about achieving the trust you seek. First of all, you assess the key elements of the game in an unbiased fashion.  Most reviewers can do this, and I'm sure you won' t have any problems with that, either. Visuals, sound effects, music, cutscenes, core gameplay mechanics, etc.  Just let us know what you like and don't like about them and you've got a good start. Where it gets tricky is what you decide to omit.  It's easy to tell us what you feel comfortable being honest about, quite something else to deceive through omission. No, you didn't outright lie, you just failed to mention those things that perhaps fell in the "conflict of interest" category.

    So, fine, be honest, don't do that, tell us what you really think, and you WILL be seen as honest, because, frankly, you let us know everything you thought of the game that you felt we should know, both good and bad. Then put a number on it based on your perceived bang for the buck and Viola!, you've gained some solid rep! Personally, I think opinion pieces are easy to write, reviews or otherwise, because it just involves saying what you mean and standing behind what you say. If someone points out a flaw or oversight in my opinion, I'm open to revising it. Again, that builds trust and respect between parties. Honest opinions are the ones we're willing to change if presented with a valid argument. Dishonest ones are those we will not, because the foundation of them is riddled with the decay of half-truths, omissions, and blind loyalty.

  • Starbuck1771Starbuck1771 Topeka, KSPosts: 303Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Tardcore

     

    Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

     

    Good little write up there. I think the main problem at this site and others, and heck out in the real world as well, is that people can't seem to grasp that an opinion is not a fact. If you disagree with a persons opinion of something, that does not mean they are wrong, it just means you disagree with them. And while you have every right to disagree with them you do not have the right to tell them what they should or should not think or feel.

    On the topic of DCUO I played the beta and felt it was a fun game, but not something that can hold my attention for any period of time.

    On DCUO I would value your opinion on one question. Given their talent, money, and experiance with MMOs do you feel that DCUO in its current state is the best game that SOE could have produced?


     

     Nope SOE could have used the money and resources to better their exsisting games which have been suffering. Games like Planetside, Vanguard, and of course SWG. The fact is SOE cant keep those games up to par yet they continue to expand EQ and EQ2 and introduce new games into the market. If they wont expand the meantioned games it would serve best if they made them F2P instead of just dragging them along with subscriptions.

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  • wahala99wahala99 Punta Gorda, FLPosts: 146Member

    Me thinks he doth protest too much.

    If Ya Ain't Dyin, Ya Ain't Tryin

  • UnlightUnlight Ottawa, ONPosts: 2,540Member

    Sod the proles.  Write what you want.  If people are reading and responding, positively or negatively, they're interested in what you have to say.  As long as your pieces continue to be read, you're doing your job.  The only opinion that really matters at the end of it all is your employer's.  If they're happy, it's because you're keeping your readers engaged on some level.  That's all that's important.

  • kzaskekzaske Boise, IDPosts: 518Member

    What I don’t get is why is Bill Murphy apologizing for his review of DC Universe Online (DCUO) when we have not read it yet?  Can it be that he gave it such a high score that he feels guilty about it?


    I have no interest and there for no experience with that game so I really could not care less about that game.  Publish the review and sell the advertisements in the end that is all that matters to any media company.  The stock holders will love it if you create a furor over it because for a shot time people will swarm in bringing with them lots of impressions and advertising revenue.  Remember that in the end no one believes an IGN review anymore, for good reason.

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  • HyperwolfHyperwolf LismorePosts: 120Member

    Originally posted by Bob_Blawblaw



    Originally posted by thamighty213

    The problem is the same as every game journalism site or publication these days you never read anything bad.

     

    We have a winner!

    And yet even though we never read anything bad, it's generally accepted that the majority of mmo's are a broken waste of money, and that mmo's will always launch incomplete, and that mmo companies will always be trying to rip us off. What does this tell us then about the 'journalists' who are generally regarded as our (the consumers) first and greatest defense against being ripped off? These game 'news' websites do nothing but validate to the publishers that they can have their way with the playerbase day in and day out, and will continue to do so until the mmo industry collapses due to people finally saying no. and not just saying no to buying the games, but no to trusting and visiting websites that have earned themselves a reputation for being nothing but yes-men to the companys that want to have at our wallets. Websites such as this one.

     


     

    Hi Bob,

    I find people like you difficult to understand. You're obviously generally angry about everything to do with MMO's. So much so that you are on a thread taking the time to put down a game you've already written off, like somehow you'll get some sort of karmic reward for it. Not content with writing of DCUO, you want to cast aspersions on this guy, and make fairly insulting insinuations with absolutely nothing to back it up with.

    We have a winner! says Bob

    I direct you to :

    http://www.mmorpg.com/features.cfm/view/reviews ... Wow look at all those glowing reviews. Oh wait.

    You say : 

    "generally accepted that the majority of mmo's are a broken waste of money, and that mmo's will always launch incomplete, and that mmo companies will always be trying to rip us off".

    Generally accepted by who? I have plenty of great memories of many different MMO's I have played over the years. Am I not the 'general' you were talking about? Where are the statistics for this breakdown of people who feel as you do versus the 'others'?

    And this from you

    So the brain tries to figure out how this journalist who should be much more experienced and discriminating than a person such as myself, could so enthusiastically settle for an obviously flawed product. It's quite easy to see how one could come to the conclusion that there's some payola involved.

    I think perhaps 'your' brain tries to figure it out. Most others, perhaps one would even say the more 'discriminating and experienced' of us, just see it for what it is - Opinion.

    Perhaps Bill just feels as Herbert Bayard Swope did when he said: 

    "It occurred to me that nothing is more interesting than opinion when opinion is interesting".

    Bill's opinions seem interesting. Yours seem fairly run of the mill.

    Cheers.

    You will never reach your destination if you stop and throw stones at every dog that barks
    ~ WC

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member

    Originally posted by Tyroki

    MMORPG.com needs to be more like Top Gear :

    You get paid to bring up the pros and cons but can damn anything that deserves it. Some companies really don't like the Top Gear guys for some of their previous damning 'reviews', but that never stops them.

    The real trouble is that there are just far too many sites like this one.

    Exactly! And what would happen if BMW paid Top Gear to have BMW ads and at the same time Top Gear would review BMW cars. It would never work because there is a conflict of interest there. They would know that if they would give bad review to BMW cars then they would risk losing valuable ad money from BMW, so they would be inclined to give better review than it deserves.

    And imo that is what is happening with sites like mmorpg.com. Just look at all the ads on this page, no one can tell me that all the money they get from these ads would not make them a little biased for the companies that pay for the ads.

  • sudosudo Tel-AvivPosts: 697Member Uncommon

    You are my favorite writer on mmorpg.com, Bill, and I'll read your articles even if they are about a game I don't really care. 

    Keep doing a great job and let the people who understand that to enjoy a good write-up they don't always have to agree with the author do so.

    "Only in quiet waters do things mirror themselves undistorted.
    Only in a quiet mind is adequate perception of the world."
    Hans Margolius

  • BillMurphyBillMurphy Managing Editor Berea, OHPosts: 2,357MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon



    Is that about right Bill?  Do I get anything for paraphrasing? 


     

    More or less.  :)

    I just wanted to have something out there that I can point back to down the road when I need to, for folks who slap on their conspiracy theory garb whenever I might get excited about something.

     

    -Bill

  • GikkuGikku Oak Ridge, TNPosts: 208Member

    Opinions are just that. Everyone has one. Doesn't make them right or wrong, just means that everyone has one. An honest opinion is more valueable than one that just agrees with the one giving it.

    I like your articles and look forward to more of them.

    Gikku

  • GorillaGorilla Posts: 2,202Member Uncommon

    Honesty referst to moral character, I don't think anyone is calling that into question. Whilst it (honesty) is important in a journalist, without certain other characteristics and skills it is not sufficent. One must also be analytical and objective, having a wide frame of reference is also a plus. Sure, people are intrested in the reviewers own opinions of a game but only within an established  framework of 'the facts'. It's a tough job I guess but it is a job foremost. The level of expectation form a staff writer on an independant news site is obviously different to a blogger or even a freelancer. It's pretty tough I guess.

  • SamhaelSamhael Huntsville, ALPosts: 696Member Uncommon

    You know... I never realized some of these articles were supposed to be opinion pieces -- maybe that should be in the title?  Is everything except a review an opinion?  (not being snarky, just curious)

  • ShaydeShayde Cape Coral, FLPosts: 4,529Member

    Originally posted by BillMurphy





    Is that about right Bill?  Do I get anything for paraphrasing? 


     

    More or less.  :)

    I just wanted to have something out there that I can point back to down the road when I need to, for folks who slap on their conspiracy theory garb whenever I might get excited about something.

     

    -Bill


     

     

    See.. Right here, I said I was honest and unbiased by advertizing, so I'm unbiased. Says so in black and white.

     

    Glad you didn't type you can fly by flapping your arms... and decided to test that theory.

    Shayde - SWG (dead)
    Proud member of the Cabal.
    image

    imageimage
    It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled :( - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me.
    I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
    09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0

  • TUX426TUX426 Madison, WIPosts: 1,907Member

    Originally posted by Shayde



    Originally posted by BillMurphy





    Is that about right Bill?  Do I get anything for paraphrasing? 


     

    More or less.  :)

    I just wanted to have something out there that I can point back to down the road when I need to, for folks who slap on their conspiracy theory garb whenever I might get excited about something.

     

    -Bill


     

     

    See.. Right here, I said I was honest and unbiased by advertizing, so I'm unbiased. Says so in black and white.

     

    Glad you didn't type you can fly by flapping your arms... and decided to test that theory.


     

    lol.

    Can you maybe explain it a little better Bill? This guy is right, this is exactly how that blurb by you reads.

    You can claim to be "honest" all you want - doesn't make it true if you aren't.

  • GrumpyMel2GrumpyMel2 Catskills, NYPosts: 1,832Member

    Bottom line is that ANY site or periodical that draws it's revenue primarly (or in this case entirely) from paid advertisement is going to have the perception of bias.... and likely will have some degree of actual bias creep in as well. If not in the writing then certainly in the editorial decisions.  No amount of claiming you are not biased as an orginization by advertisement dollars will actualy pass the straight face test of any discerning reader.

    That's not a cheap shot....it's just the simple truism that organizations/individuals cannot be relied on to police themselves..... Or to put it another way...If MMORPG were biased by advertising dollars...would it actualy admit that it was? Probably not...right?

    That's why with things that REALLY matter...it's important to avoid even the possible perception of bias. Simply put, an organization that want's to fully avoid perception of bias will not accept funding from the sources it writes about.

    In the case of MMORPG, I realize that is likely impractical...so you are simply going to have to live with the fact that many readers suspect some level of bias in your publication.

    Myself, the only thing I really look for from MMORPG.com when it does coverage is what specific details I can glean about the design decisions or features that a particular game has.....I pretty much take any commentary about the quality/value/entertainment factor of such features with a very large grain of salt.

  • halobumphalobump BrightonPosts: 380Member

    Ever notice how 5/10 is considered bad these days?

    Shouldn't that be an average game. Seems 7/10 is more toward the average level mark.

    I like the summary in a few points to sum up a game for me, cause that's what most of us tend to do inadvertently or not. That, and the timeline and maths summaries too help e compare to other games I may have played.

    Maths Example: Graphics + World of Warcraft = Rift

    That sorta thing.

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  • How can an opinion based on a subjective enjoyment of a product be 'wrong'? I am confused

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