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Few things that hinders the fun factor

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  • DeeweDeewe Long Beach, CAPosts: 1,965Member

    Originally posted by Isane

    Originally posted by Deewe


    Originally posted by Thorak


    Originally posted by Deewe

    We're certainly not going to play a moisture farmer in TOR and that's fine, even if it could have been pretty fun. However in the end when every maxed out character will run around with the same slave (companion tagged with his master's name) in quite the same iconic gear I do have an issue: this is not the WoW factor I'm looking for.

     How do you know they will all be using the same companion? I am not even sure people from the same class will always be using the same companion as people have different tastes. Also, it has been stated that there are thousands of armor sets, so what makes you think everyone is going to be running around looking the same?

    Companions will always get the 2nd choice of gear.

    I can be wrong but we can predict templates will emerge mixing specific classes with specific companions.

    => Class / Companions mix won't be that different from each others contrary to what BioWare is seeing in their test sessions as when it will hit mainstream it will all converge at some point. Well... maybe ;)

     

    Note to GMan3 and Horesechocker, I would invite you to read the other thread I linked before you go away. Honestly if there wasn't people like me fighting for such details in 10 years we would still be playing dumbed down version with lack of choice.

     

    Funny thing is last time I spoke with a close friend that's senior designer on multiple AAA games and we agreed that



    • I look too much in details, details that the designers nor producers didn't even thought about most of the time


    • I'm way too far thinking for the player, too often the designers just don't look that far...


    • It's just about games ;)

    UHm I think GMAN3 and Horsechocker are right , you seem to be producing lots of meaningless text that adds little to the real discussion.

    Your wrap up and summary just seems scewed in some way can't put my finger on it.  I think you are trying but am not ure what your real intentions are... But I don't think you are adding any value, I may be wrong...

    I think I will put my faith in Bioware rather than someone who "believes" , he is better than the designers or thats the impression you are trying to make, I just had to laugh at that line.

    I think what hinders the fun in MMORPGs, are people who take the games too seriously and demand certain features that play against longevity and the persistant nature of the gaming world. I could go into the design concepts that support each of these but guess what I'm not being paid to ham it up on these forumns. And you understand all of this anyway...

    The ability to be concise is an Art you should try it maybe that way you may get a point or two accross...

    I think I'm boired now

    Thanks for taking the time to post this. I will try to take the needed time to digest it for sure.

  • Elox1Elox1 Kamloops, BCPosts: 211Member

    I'm not as picky as most people but I think the thing that bothers me the most so far is the expectation that we need to bring a companion with us EVERYWHERE.  I hope it doesn't feel like every class is a pet class as a result.

  • whilanwhilan Everett, WAPosts: 3,172Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Elox1

    I'm not as picky as most people but I think the thing that bothers me the most so far is the expectation that we need to bring a companion with us EVERYWHERE.  I hope it doesn't feel like every class is a pet class as a result.

     From what i know of pet classes they tend to lack any sort of physical abilities and rely on the pets to hold aggro, so they can deal damage, kinda like necromancers/magicians

    Now the way i understand the companions in they are an addition to your character,  You pick a warrior and a healer companion, now your basically a paladin.  You can tank while letting your companion heal.

    Your companion will never be as good as another player. It's just another way to tweak your characters abilities. I think one reviwer stated that you could tank 3 while your companion could tank 1.

     

    Same for the healer pet they can only do so much.  However if your group is missing a healer, 4 people can come and bring their healer companions along and mostly fill the role of that one healer.

    It's still better to actually have a healer speced person but the companions can help fill the gap that might be missing in the groups.  As for the pet class? I feel it's just an extra added person.  You can use them to gather items or fend off enemies while you gather. 

    Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.

    Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.

    image

  • Elox1Elox1 Kamloops, BCPosts: 211Member

    Originally posted by whilan

    Originally posted by Elox1

    I'm not as picky as most people but I think the thing that bothers me the most so far is the expectation that we need to bring a companion with us EVERYWHERE.  I hope it doesn't feel like every class is a pet class as a result.

     From what i know of pet classes they tend to lack any sort of physical abilities and rely on the pets to hold aggro, so they can deal damage, kinda like necromancers/magicians

    Now the way i understand the companions in they are an addition to your character,  You pick a warrior and a healer companion, now your basically a paladin.  You can tank while letting your companion heal.

    Your companion will never be as good as another player. It's just another way to tweak your characters abilities. I think one reviwer stated that you could tank 3 while your companion could tank 1.

     

    Same for the healer pet they can only do so much.  However if your group is missing a healer, 4 people can come and bring their healer companions along and mostly fill the role of that one healer.

    It's still better to actually have a healer speced person but the companions can help fill the gap that might be missing in the groups.  As for the pet class? I feel it's just an extra added person.  You can use them to gather items or fend off enemies while you gather. 

    I think what bugs me the most about the companions is if they are there to tweak your characters abilities as you say then will I have full control over their skills or will I need to rely on the AI to try it's best.

    Also as for a pet class, just going under the assumption that DPS is usually the most efficient way to level and if you so choose a DPS AC then it's likely you'll have a tank companion or healer companion and if it's a tank companion it would indeed seem to play out like a pet class.

  • whilanwhilan Everett, WAPosts: 3,172Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Elox1

    Originally posted by whilan

    Originally posted by Elox1

    I'm not as picky as most people but I think the thing that bothers me the most so far is the expectation that we need to bring a companion with us EVERYWHERE.  I hope it doesn't feel like every class is a pet class as a result.

     From what i know of pet classes they tend to lack any sort of physical abilities and rely on the pets to hold aggro, so they can deal damage, kinda like necromancers/magicians

    Now the way i understand the companions in they are an addition to your character,  You pick a warrior and a healer companion, now your basically a paladin.  You can tank while letting your companion heal.

    Your companion will never be as good as another player. It's just another way to tweak your characters abilities. I think one reviwer stated that you could tank 3 while your companion could tank 1.

     

    Same for the healer pet they can only do so much.  However if your group is missing a healer, 4 people can come and bring their healer companions along and mostly fill the role of that one healer.

    It's still better to actually have a healer speced person but the companions can help fill the gap that might be missing in the groups.  As for the pet class? I feel it's just an extra added person.  You can use them to gather items or fend off enemies while you gather. 

    I think what bugs me the most about the companions is if they are there to tweak your characters abilities as you say then will I have full control over their skills or will I need to rely on the AI to try it's best.

    Also as for a pet class, just going under the assumption that DPS is usually the most efficient way to level and if you so choose a DPS AC then it's likely you'll have a tank companion or healer companion and if it's a tank companion it would indeed seem to play out like a pet class.

     Well it really depends on person i suppose.

    You can use AI kits to change it to a more dps/tank/healer type of companion but they still won't be able to do the job as well as someone else..

    As for the tanking, in most cases you'll be fighting multiple mobs at the same time, if your tank companion tried to fight 4 mobs at once, it is likely they would get wiped out pretty quickly.  They are just an extention not a seperate class all together, a tank pet is more of an offtank, to take a few mobs off of you for a little bit while you kill the other 2 or 3.  they won't be able to tank the mob all together.

    Edit: in one of the interviews they said your companion only could take out 1 of the mobs while you took out the other 3.  Kinda like a shadowknights skeleton pet.  Only more customizable as they can wear all the equipment you can and can be customized with AI kits.

    Additional edit: one good thing though about the companions is that if your missing a healer class, and you have a full group of 4, each one can switch to their healer companion and fill the role enough to play out the dungeon as if they had a healer, still not going to be as effective but thats to be expected.  This allows you to not have to wait for hours for a healer to pop up.

    Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.

    Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.

    image

  • LatronusLatronus Lexington Park, MDPosts: 692Member

    Originally posted by Deewe

    Originally posted by keithianw

    Originally posted by Deewe

     


    Heroics proportions


    "Required" companions for PvP, PUGs and RAIDs.


    No body customization for companions.


    No animal based pet classes


    No display pet classes


    Sith pureblood that look like red skinned elves


    Trandoshan that look like goblins from a fantasy MMO


    No non humanoid playable races


    Oversized and spiky shoulder pads


    PvP specific gear (more mess to manage)


    No social clothing tab


    No gear dyes, or class limited color palette


    No Advanced Classes respec


    No multiplayer space combat, PvE & PvP wise


    Very short space combat scenarios: 2-8 minutes only


    No fighter type small space ships


    No choice of space ships chassis


    No planetary housing (instanced or not)


    Maybe not even guild halls


    No day/night cycles


    It's SW, made by BioWare ==> should be awesome.


     


    However there are quite a few things leveraging the fun factor for a SW based MMO:


     


    Leveraging and Hindering are two different things.


     


    • Heroics proportions Whats wrong with this? 


      • Awkward looking characters: too big hands, anorexic females with huge breast and so on.


      • Unproportioned toons never hurt WoW.  I mean god have you seen the hands on those night elves?



    • "Required" companions for PvP, PUGs and RAIDs. Source please? I've always read that companions are optional. Regardless, doesn't bother me in the least.


      • James Ohlen: "Right now we are assuming that you are using your companion character. If you don’t use your companion you will be at a big disadvantage because all the DPS that your companion would be doing isn’t going to be there. So there is no point to not bring your companion character, unless you want to challenge yourself by not bringing him around."


      • Nothing in that quote says BW is forcing you to use your companions.  If you don't want them with you... loose some DPS, it's YOUR CHOICE.  So please, where are they required? 



    • No body customization for companions. Who cares. Could use customize any pets (which aren't even as complex as companions in this game) in any other game that has been successful to date?


      • Companions will end as twins, it would have helped lighten the issue a lot, a gearing them up won't be sufficient.


      • What's your point exactly? 



    • No animal based pet classes This has been confirmed? Regardless, Id rather have a more complex companion that have a life of their own and add value to the quest and storyline then a pet with a few commands like attack, stay, passive, defensive.


      • Fond of playing pet classes but not having blabling companions


      • Hmmm, this is Star Wars not WoW Wars or EQ Wars.  How many animal pets are there in Star Wars?  I haven't read many of the books, and it's been years since I have, so I am probably wrong, but I don't remember any pets other than Jabba's annoying little critter.



    • No display pets Where are you getting confirmations for this stuff? Regardless, this is another who cares. Maybe it will be sold in their store?


    • Sith pureblood that look like red skinned elves Who cares.


      • Some do, at least for a SW themed game


      • I'm sure there are some that care, but they are almost all force sensitive, so I would figure that their physical characteristics (muscles, bone structure) would have gotten smaller over the years with Darwinism and all, just saying.



    • Trandoshan that look like goblins from a fantasy MMO Who cares


      • See above


      • Meh, never really noticed, but I guess some might.



    • No non humanoid playable races  Though I wish there were, I think this is one of the most over hyped criticisms of the game. I disagree with others that they simply look like humans in different colors. They look varied enough to me and more may be added in expansions. In addition, the starter areas will probably be different and isnt that more important than a bunch of different races in more generic starting areas like Ive seen in other games? AOC had everyone starting in the exact same place.


      • One of the appeal of being a SW game is the specie diversity.


      • Yes and yet, do you want a fairly polished game at launched with just playable humanoids or do you want vast diversity, years added to the development timeline and another horrible launch because the game stinks?  Let's get a good polished, playable game with humanoids then demand the furry Ewoks and stuff later. 



    • Oversized and spiky shoulder pads This is not the case for each and every class and for each and every gear. In addition I can think of something similar to this in terms of 'out of proportions'' in just about EVERY game out there.


      • At least every asian based MMO, it's not the case in LotRo, DDO, SWG, and not so much in AoC


      • You missed the real game that was being eluded to... WoW.  Like the armor in that game are totally and truly proportional.



    • PvP specific gear (more mess to manage and gear to grind) How come you know more about this than even the beta testers?


    • No social clothing tab I have no idea what this means, but since I wasnt looking for this feature I don't care. Also, I remind you that the game is in beta and we don't know what the final build will be.


    • Social clothing is a "tab" that allows a player to put gear on that will displayed regardless of what is actually equiped.  It's a purely cosmetic thing and I could care less if its there at launch or ever.


    • Controversial art choice for some gear sets, especially Inquisitor and Sith. Who cares. This is so subjective.


      • Especially when a Sith Inquisitor looks like an African voodoo priest. So much for a SW setting.


      • Well, all Jedi/Sith could just run around in earth toned robes or black leather and capes, the bounty hunters will never show their faces, the Empirials will all look like the walking dead wearing all dark colors... An African Voodoo priest?  Really?  I don't see it.



    • No gear dyes, at best class limited color palette I dont even know if this is true. We haven't seen the final build yet. Either way, the game looks colorful enough.


      • Just a matter of being able to have our charcters look like we want


      • Can a player get a good game at launch and then have the stupid cosmetic crap added later?  All we want is a good stable gamee on day one!  Armor dyes can come year 2, 3 or whenever. 



    • No Advanced Classes respec   Same answer. We havent seen the latest build yet. How do you know this? Regardless, I think I am torn on this subject. Even if it is true, I'm wondering if this wouldn't be a bad thing so everyone isn't copying and pasting generic trees at release and it forces some variations among those who are in the same advanced class. Regardless, I'm not so sure they won't allow change with some money involved. I though it was more that you cannot change your advanced class, not that you can't respec them.


      • SO far you can't change your AC class that's the issue. There will be a skill points respect.


      • Yup, and who says it wont come later.  Besides, if you made a bad choice... roll another toon.  This isn't push button X and you win... at least I hope it isn't.



    • No multiplayer space combat, PvE & PvP wise You've seen the final build? Either way, doesn't bother me at all.


      • Guess you're not into space sim, nor multiplayer .


      • As this horse has beaten into glue long ago... Space combat in Star Wars was NOT the point of the movies/books.  If a player wants endless space combat/exploration... play Eve.  That IS the main theme of that game.



    • Very short space combat scenarios: 2-8 minutes only   You've seen the final build? Either way, doesn't bother me at all.


      • It's been officially stated.


      • See above.  Yes it going to be short scenarios, but again, space combat was not the main theme of Star Wars and shouldn't be the focus of this game.



    • No fighter type small space ships     You've seen the final build? Maybe it will be in their store or expansion? Either way, doesn't bother me at all.


      • We are speaking about launch, and yes it's true.


      • Yup, it's true



    • No choice of space ships chassis You've seen the final build? Either way, doesn't bother me at all.


      • Nope, your space ship chassis is imposed by your class choice. It's official.


      • True it is, for now at least.  I can see this changing in time.



    • No planetary housing (instanced or not)   You've seen the final build? Either way, doesn't bother me at all.


      • Housing will be implemented through space ships only, at launch.


      • True true



    • Maybe not even guild halls You've seen the final build? Either way, doesn't bother me at all.


      • Wait and see... but there's no multiplayer space content so guild ships.... 


      • I can't see how this takes away from the game anyway.  Look at EQ2, there are guild halls there and the cities are deserted due to it.  It takes away immersion IMO.  Keep them out as far as I'm concerned



    • No day/night cycles   You've seen the final build? Either way, doesn't bother me at all.


    • Overwhelming story: not so short dialog cutscene  TOTALLY DISAGREE. Most of us are hoping the story makes us actually pay attention to the quests again.  Also, you;'ve timed the length of each of the dialogue choices in the over 40 novels they are releasing and they are all long and the same length of time?


      • Only very short dialogs fits the fast paced MMO group play


      • But the player can skip through it.  The story is important to this game, elitists may be upset because they have to hit more buttons than normal to get on with the quest.  Oh well.



    • No player bounties ;)   You've seen the final build? You know for sure there won't be quests that leverage this idea in some way? (I am using the word leverage correctly).


      • Been said long time ago, plus there's no BH equivalent class on the republic



     


    The game will be polished for sure, maybe not as much as WoW is now. But it feels very restricted at this point.


     


    Just about everything in your list is nonsense and won't impact the fun factor for most normal gamers out there. A game can't have everything. This game is going to have a HUGE amount of options, variations, choices, etc when compared to other games. I expect it to be just as polished as WOW or even more so ( I can't tell you how many bugs I have encountered in Cataclysm).. This list makes me wonder how it is possible for you to enjoy any game out there, because if I dissected every other game that is currently released in the way that you just did, this list would be 100 times the size of what you wrote.


     


    /agree with most of this.  If this is as good a game as BW has put out before, it'll be just fine


     

     

    I don't know what's a normal gamer but at least I'm pretty well informed. I'm glad the designers choice fits your liking though. For my part I'd rather be the one in control of my character's look and behavior.

     You are still in control, well as much as any other game out there that isn't a sandbox.  You can be a fallen jedi if you want.  There are several different choices to make in game, besides, do WoW, EQ2, LOTRO, AOC or any themepark style game really let you decide your characters path?  Not really unless you just don't quest very much.  Most only allow one real choice, and even if you choose the smart a$$ answer, you still get the reward and nothing happens to you later because of it.  /shrug

    Look wise, we'll have to see.  But, even the most subscribed to game only has a few choices for your toons look at creation.   

    BTW In case you have any doubts none of this comes from leaked infos.

     

    image
  • Elox1Elox1 Kamloops, BCPosts: 211Member

    It will be nice to have companions for the dungeon content as far as the LFG situation is concerned, but I really hope they do a good job on the AI so they don't go aggroing things and cause a wipe.  Have they said anything about whether or not we'll be able to flag them like heroes in Guild Wars or will they always just be following you at all times?

  • DeeweDeewe Long Beach, CAPosts: 1,965Member

    Originally posted by whilan

    Originally posted by Elox1


    Originally posted by whilan


    Originally posted by Elox1

    I'm not as picky as most people but I think the thing that bothers me the most so far is the expectation that we need to bring a companion with us EVERYWHERE.  I hope it doesn't feel like every class is a pet class as a result.

     From what i know of pet classes they tend to lack any sort of physical abilities and rely on the pets to hold aggro, so they can deal damage, kinda like necromancers/magicians

    Now the way i understand the companions in they are an addition to your character,  You pick a warrior and a healer companion, now your basically a paladin.  You can tank while letting your companion heal.

    Your companion will never be as good as another player. It's just another way to tweak your characters abilities. I think one reviwer stated that you could tank 3 while your companion could tank 1.

     

    Same for the healer pet they can only do so much.  However if your group is missing a healer, 4 people can come and bring their healer companions along and mostly fill the role of that one healer.

    It's still better to actually have a healer speced person but the companions can help fill the gap that might be missing in the groups.  As for the pet class? I feel it's just an extra added person.  You can use them to gather items or fend off enemies while you gather. 

    I think what bugs me the most about the companions is if they are there to tweak your characters abilities as you say then will I have full control over their skills or will I need to rely on the AI to try it's best.

    Also as for a pet class, just going under the assumption that DPS is usually the most efficient way to level and if you so choose a DPS AC then it's likely you'll have a tank companion or healer companion and if it's a tank companion it would indeed seem to play out like a pet class.

     Well it really depends on person i suppose.

    You can use AI kits to change it to a more dps/tank/healer type of companion but they still won't be able to do the job as well as someone else..

    As for the tanking, in most cases you'll be fighting multiple mobs at the same time, if your tank companion tried to fight 4 mobs at once, it is likely they would get wiped out pretty quickly.  They are just an extention not a seperate class all together, a tank pet is more of an offtank, to take a few mobs off of you for a little bit while you kill the other 2 or 3.  they won't be able to tank the mob all together.

    Edit: in one of the interviews they said your companion only could take out 1 of the mobs while you took out the other 3.  Kinda like a shadowknights skeleton pet.  Only more customizable as they can wear all the equipment you can and can be customized with AI kits.

    Additional edit: one good thing though about the companions is that if your missing a healer class, and you have a full group of 4, each one can switch to their healer companion and fill the role enough to play out the dungeon as if they had a healer, still not going to be as effective but thats to be expected.  This allows you to not have to wait for hours for a healer to pop up.

    As Whilan is saying it seems the companion is doing about 33% of the player's damage but out of context it does not really help, but only to say: any PUG / RAID / PvP leader would not easily afford to loose such DPS output from his group.

    Now the #33% is based on one non official single quote, so take it with a grain of salt as it can be much less, or more.

    All in all it will all depend on the player Advanced Class and Companion combo. For example, a  Consular healer with a DPS companion could see dramatically different numbers than say a Sith DPS with a companion healer.

     

    Bioware stated multiple time that you can play the game without companions. They aren't mandatory. Still I tend to see them as required, especially since this quote:

    James Ohlen :Right now we are assuming that you are using your companion character. If you don’t use your companion you will be at a big disadvantage because all the DPS that your companion would be doing isn’t going to be there. So there is no point to not bring your companion character, unless you want to challenge yourself by not bringing him around."

     

    Finally you can bring companions in PvP along you, but we don't know yet if it's one companion per player or limited companions slots per War zone (aka battlegrounds).

  • whilanwhilan Everett, WAPosts: 3,172Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Elox1

    It will be nice to have companions for the dungeon content as far as the LFG situation is concerned, but I really hope they do a good job on the AI so they don't go aggroing things and cause a wipe.  Have they said anything about whether or not we'll be able to flag them like heroes in Guild Wars or will they always just be following you at all times?

     Not sure on the flagging system but this is what they have to say about the aggro system

     


    Companions do not draw aggro until they perform an action that generates threat, such as attacking or using a special ability - Darth Hater

    Take that for what it is.

    Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.

    Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.

    image

  • IsaneIsane EnglandPosts: 2,629Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Elox1

    I'm not as picky as most people but I think the thing that bothers me the most so far is the expectation that we need to bring a companion with us EVERYWHERE.  I hope it doesn't feel like every class is a pet class as a result.

    Its a challenge option if you don't like PUGs or have no friends on. Nothing more or less.  Mainly for the core Storyline which is 100% soloable. It allows Bioware to utilise all the colatteral Bioware has produced to give fans of KOTOR itterations 3,4,5,6,7 etc etc etc....

    On top of all of thios storyline and solo content that can be completed in groups as well, you have all the standard MMOP fare.

    ________________________________________________________
    Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel 

  • YilelienYilelien Vacaville, CAPosts: 322Member

    No game is going ot have all the features that each and everyone of are going to want. So while i see some features on your llist that i also would like to see. More for vanity than anything else. I cant say it really bothers me if they are not there either.

  • Elox1Elox1 Kamloops, BCPosts: 211Member

    Originally posted by Isane

    Originally posted by Elox1

    I'm not as picky as most people but I think the thing that bothers me the most so far is the expectation that we need to bring a companion with us EVERYWHERE.  I hope it doesn't feel like every class is a pet class as a result.

    Its a challenge option if you don't like PUGs or have no friends on. Nothing more or less.  Mainly for the core Storyline which is 100% soloable. It allows Bioware to utilise all the colatteral Bioware has produced to give fans of KOTOR itterations 3,4,5,6,7 etc etc etc....

    On top of all of thios storyline and solo content that can be completed in groups as well, you have all the standard MMOP fare.

    It's not really much of an option to turn on or off when the content has been tuned for always bringing a companion.  You don't think it would be nice to have a PvP mode where no companions are allowed at the very least?

  • keithiankeithian Los Angeles, CAPosts: 3,042Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Elox1

    Originally posted by Isane


    Originally posted by Elox1

    I'm not as picky as most people but I think the thing that bothers me the most so far is the expectation that we need to bring a companion with us EVERYWHERE.  I hope it doesn't feel like every class is a pet class as a result.

    Its a challenge option if you don't like PUGs or have no friends on. Nothing more or less.  Mainly for the core Storyline which is 100% soloable. It allows Bioware to utilise all the colatteral Bioware has produced to give fans of KOTOR itterations 3,4,5,6,7 etc etc etc....

    On top of all of thios storyline and solo content that can be completed in groups as well, you have all the standard MMOP fare.

    It's not really much of an option to turn on or off when the content has been tuned for always bringing a companion.  You don't think it would be nice to have a PvP mode where no companions are allowed at the very least?

    We don't know what all the PVP options are or what you can or cannot do yet because Bioware hasn't released most of the information around PVP, but hopefully there will be PVP without the need for companions.

    There Is Always Hope!

  • DeeweDeewe Long Beach, CAPosts: 1,965Member

    Originally posted by keithianw

    Originally posted by Elox1


    Originally posted by Isane


    Originally posted by Elox1

    I'm not as picky as most people but I think the thing that bothers me the most so far is the expectation that we need to bring a companion with us EVERYWHERE.  I hope it doesn't feel like every class is a pet class as a result.

    Its a challenge option if you don't like PUGs or have no friends on. Nothing more or less.  Mainly for the core Storyline which is 100% soloable. It allows Bioware to utilise all the colatteral Bioware has produced to give fans of KOTOR itterations 3,4,5,6,7 etc etc etc....

    On top of all of thios storyline and solo content that can be completed in groups as well, you have all the standard MMOP fare.

    It's not really much of an option to turn on or off when the content has been tuned for always bringing a companion.  You don't think it would be nice to have a PvP mode where no companions are allowed at the very least?

    We don't know what all the PVP options are or what you can or cannot do yet because Bioware hasn't released most of the information around PVP, but hopefully there will be PVP without the need for companions.

    For the little story I read sometime ago, somewhere , someone saying that supposedly there won't be as many companion slots as players slots in Warzone.

     

    However we have no infos at all about companion less Warzones. There was quite a lot arguing about this on the official forums. It's a much requested feature but so far it seems BioWare wants us to use companions. It can change but I'd say the initial plan was to have them anywhere and it's not a small change to undertake, even if they're using agile development methodology...

  • whilanwhilan Everett, WAPosts: 3,172Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Deewe

    Originally posted by keithianw

    Originally posted by Elox1

    Originally posted by Isane

    Originally posted by Elox1

    I'm not as picky as most people but I think the thing that bothers me the most so far is the expectation that we need to bring a companion with us EVERYWHERE.  I hope it doesn't feel like every class is a pet class as a result.

    Its a challenge option if you don't like PUGs or have no friends on. Nothing more or less.  Mainly for the core Storyline which is 100% soloable. It allows Bioware to utilise all the colatteral Bioware has produced to give fans of KOTOR itterations 3,4,5,6,7 etc etc etc....

    On top of all of thios storyline and solo content that can be completed in groups as well, you have all the standard MMOP fare.

    It's not really much of an option to turn on or off when the content has been tuned for always bringing a companion.  You don't think it would be nice to have a PvP mode where no companions are allowed at the very least?

    We don't know what all the PVP options are or what you can or cannot do yet because Bioware hasn't released most of the information around PVP, but hopefully there will be PVP without the need for companions.

    For the little story I read sometime ago, somewhere , someone saying that supposedly there won't be as many companion slots as players slots in Warzone.

     

    However we have no infos at all about companion less Warzones. There was quite a lot arguing about this on the official forums. It's a much requested feature but so far it seems BioWare wants us to use companions. It can change but I'd say the initial plan was to have them anywhere and it's not a small change to undertake, even if they're using agile development methodology...

     That would be my guess as well. You CAN remove companions but the game is designed around having them with you. They even state companions are not counted against the total 8 v 8 counter


    When asked if companions count towards 8vs8 Warzones the reply was quote: "No. They don't count towards that 8v8." - Darth Hater


     


    Take that for what it is.

    Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.

    Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.

    image

  • mainvein33mainvein33 Atlanta, GAPosts: 406Member

    I read the OP and responses. First off if you have a subjective opinion keep it to yourself it only weakens your arguement and makes it sound like your whining.

    I wont address the guild issues, housing, etc they are pointless since they vary heavily from game to game I suggest you just get over it.

    Space combat mini game: If you really need it go to EVE or STO its not the focus for this title thus its a mini game.

    PvP specific gear: Is a good thing it lets a pvp players get rewarded for hard work. As long as it doesn't create game breaking imbalances (like Aion) its all good. You could always just play on a PvE server right?

    Companions: your gripes about these guys seem to be the biggest. As far as apperance goes just let it go they are part of the story thus you dont control their looks. Want another character that you get to design? BW has said they want you to replay the game as different classes so just do that. As far as them actually neeeding to tag along this is really easy to deal with. (drum roll) ......Go look at GW heroes got this same bs complaint until people realized making insanely geared and skilled heroes was a great addition to the meta game infact one part of the PvP (Hero Battles) is about taking your group of heroes plus yourself vs another group of heroes and one player. Builds dedicated to Hero characters are shared as part of the community for PvE use. When adding these types of characters to the game it can add a lair of depth you simply can't get otherwise. Depending on how good the AI is companions may be more effective and efficient healers or exploiters. For example in GW over time it was found that Minion Master Necromancer (a build which exploits corpses to build an army of pets) was generally better played by the Hero vs an actual player because the AI in many cases was stronger at pet management and up keep. I am not suggesting everyone will like it but there will likely be builds that are meant to deal with players who are using one while you are not. Likely youll see some sort of stun lock build where you effectively take out the companion and drop its master or build that burn the companion before it poses a threat. There are a lot of options. That 33% damage lost may not be that much. In Aion before pets could fly spiritmasters were forced to learn how to beat flying players with out them and guess what they did. Builds were made that allowed for PvP and soloing without the pet.

    With all these complaints (and I say this seriously) maybe you shouldn't play this game? You got Rift (coming out soon) and GW2 (likely the next 12 months) around the bend and atleast GW2 will focus on some of your subjective gripes.

  • kishekishe aitooPosts: 1,978Member Uncommon

    My biggest gripe: They're trying to make a MMO with static singleplayer storyline that offers little to no replay value to a mmorpg player.

     

    grand singleplayer storyline doesnt work for a mmorpg. Just imagine if they'd make Mass Effect online and you'd have 10000 john shepards queued up to take their turns to save the world from same sentient machine.

     

  • NormikeNormike san francisco, CAPosts: 436Member

    Originally posted by kishe

    My biggest gripe: They're trying to make a MMO with static singleplayer storyline that offers little to no replay value to a mmorpg player.

     

    grand singleplayer storyline doesnt work for a mmorpg. Just imagine if they'd make Mass Effect online and you'd have 10000 john shepards queued up to take their turns to save the world from same sentient machine.

     

    You're confusing a grand single player hero storyline with a grand MMO storyline. If you have five people in your group the quest giver doesn't think you are five John Shepards. Each person in the group is just as important, unless it's a class specific quest. I doubt the main story for the MMO is "single hero saves the star wars universe."

     

    All MMOs usually have static storyline and add on to it with expansions. How many times has Cazic Thul, Illidan, the Lich King been killed?  It sounds like you're saying that the usual boring background story in MMOs doesn't matter because people already ignore it. But making a better more engaging MMO story is bad?

  • AgathuAgathu Great Falls, MTPosts: 39Member Uncommon

    Speaking for myself I am looking forward to the story in this game. I am an alt-o-holic and leveling up multiple characters in most games gets boring fast. I am hoping it will be different in this game.

    A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
    Herm Albright
    (1876 - 1944)

  • GMan3GMan3 Ewa Beach, HIPosts: 2,127Member

    Originally posted by Deewe

    Originally posted by keithianw

    Originally posted by Deewe

     

    Heroics proportions


    "Required" companions for PvP, PUGs and RAIDs.


    No body customization for companions.


    No animal based pet classes


    No display pet classes


    Sith pureblood that look like red skinned elves


    Trandoshan that look like goblins from a fantasy MMO


    No non humanoid playable races


    Oversized and spiky shoulder pads


    PvP specific gear (more mess to manage)


    No social clothing tab


    No gear dyes, or class limited color palette


    No Advanced Classes respec


    No multiplayer space combat, PvE & PvP wise


    Very short space combat scenarios: 2-8 minutes only


    No fighter type small space ships


    No choice of space ships chassis


    No planetary housing (instanced or not)


    Maybe not even guild halls


    No day/night cycles



    It's SW, made by BioWare ==> should be awesome.


     


    However there are quite a few things leveraging the fun factor for a SW based MMO:


     


    Leveraging and Hindering are two different things.


     


    • Heroics proportions Whats wrong with this? 


      • Awkward looking characters: too big hands, anorexic females with huge breast and so on.



    • "Required" companions for PvP, PUGs and RAIDs. Source please? I've always read that companions are optional. Regardless, doesn't bother me in the least.


      • James Ohlen: "Right now we are assuming that you are using your companion character. If you don’t use your companion you will be at a big disadvantage because all the DPS that your companion would be doing isn’t going to be there. So there is no point to not bring your companion character, unless you want to challenge yourself by not bringing him around."



    • No body customization for companions. Who cares. Could use customize any pets (which aren't even as complex as companions in this game) in any other game that has been successful to date?


      • Companions will end as twins, it would have helped lighten the issue a lot, a gearing them up won't be sufficient.



    • No animal based pet classes This has been confirmed? Regardless, Id rather have a more complex companion that have a life of their own and add value to the quest and storyline then a pet with a few commands like attack, stay, passive, defensive.


      • Fond of playing pet classes but not having blabling companions



    • No display pets Where are you getting confirmations for this stuff? Regardless, this is another who cares. Maybe it will be sold in their store?


    • Sith pureblood that look like red skinned elves Who cares.


      • Some do, at least for a SW themed game



    • Trandoshan that look like goblins from a fantasy MMO Who cares


      • See above



    • No non humanoid playable races  Though I wish there were, I think this is one of the most over hyped criticisms of the game. I disagree with others that they simply look like humans in different colors. They look varied enough to me and more may be added in expansions. In addition, the starter areas will probably be different and isnt that more important than a bunch of different races in more generic starting areas like Ive seen in other games? AOC had everyone starting in the exact same place.


      • One of the appeal of being a SW game is the specie diversity.



    • Oversized and spiky shoulder pads This is not the case for each and every class and for each and every gear. In addition I can think of something similar to this in terms of 'out of proportions'' in just about EVERY game out there.


      • At least every asian based MMO, it's not the case in LotRo, DDO, SWG, and not so much in AoC



    • PvP specific gear (more mess to manage and gear to grind) How come you know more about this than even the beta testers?


      • It's been told by a dev. You can also check this



    • No social clothing tab I have no idea what this means, but since I wasnt looking for this feature I don't care. Also, I remind you that the game is in beta and we don't know what the final build will be.


    • Controversial art choice for some gear sets, especially Inquisitor and Sith. Who cares. This is so subjective.


      • Especially when a Sith Inquisitor looks like an African voodoo priest. So much for a SW setting.



    • No gear dyes, at best class limited color palette I dont even know if this is true. We haven't seen the final build yet. Either way, the game looks colorful enough.


      • Just a matter of being able to have our charcters look like we want



    • No Advanced Classes respec   Same answer. We havent seen the latest build yet. How do you know this? Regardless, I think I am torn on this subject. Even if it is true, I'm wondering if this wouldn't be a bad thing so everyone isn't copying and pasting generic trees at release and it forces some variations among those who are in the same advanced class. Regardless, I'm not so sure they won't allow change with some money involved. I though it was more that you cannot change your advanced class, not that you can't respec them.


      • SO far you can't change your AC class that's the issue. There will be a skill points respect.



    • No multiplayer space combat, PvE & PvP wise You've seen the final build? Either way, doesn't bother me at all.


      • Guess you're not into space sim, nor multiplayer .



    • Very short space combat scenarios: 2-8 minutes only   You've seen the final build? Either way, doesn't bother me at all.


      • It's been officially stated.



    • No fighter type small space ships     You've seen the final build? Maybe it will be in their store or expansion? Either way, doesn't bother me at all.


      • We are speaking about launch, and yes it's true.



    • No choice of space ships chassis You've seen the final build? Either way, doesn't bother me at all.


      • Nope, your space ship chassis is imposed by your class choice. It's official.



    • No planetary housing (instanced or not)   You've seen the final build? Either way, doesn't bother me at all.


      • Housing will be implemented through space ships only, at launch.



    • Maybe not even guild halls You've seen the final build? Either way, doesn't bother me at all.


      • Wait and see... but there's no multiplayer space content so guild ships.... 



    • No day/night cycles   You've seen the final build? Either way, doesn't bother me at all.


    • Overwhelming story: not so short dialog cutscene  TOTALLY DISAGREE. Most of us are hoping the story makes us actually pay attention to the quests again.  Also, you;'ve timed the length of each of the dialogue choices in the over 40 novels they are releasing and they are all long and the same length of time?


      • Only very short dialogs fits the fast paced MMO group play



    • No player bounties ;)   You've seen the final build? You know for sure there won't be quests that leverage this idea in some way? (I am using the word leverage correctly).


      • Been said long time ago, plus there's no BH equivalent class on the republic



     


    The game will be polished for sure, maybe not as much as WoW is now. But it feels very restricted at this point.


     


    Just about everything in your list is nonsense and won't impact the fun factor for most normal gamers out there. A game can't have everything. This game is going to have a HUGE amount of options, variations, choices, etc when compared to other games. I expect it to be just as polished as WOW or even more so ( I can't tell you how many bugs I have encountered in Cataclysm).. This list makes me wonder how it is possible for you to enjoy any game out there, because if I dissected every other game that is currently released in the way that you just did, this list would be 100 times the size of what you wrote.


     


      


    I don't know what's a normal gamer but at least I'm pretty well informed. I'm glad the designers choice fits your liking though. For my part I'd rather be the one in control of my character's look and behavior.

     BTW In case you have any doubts none of this comes from leaked infos.

     Proof for ALL of your claims please.  Links and all.  Maybe even some video footage.

    "If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"

  • keithiankeithian Los Angeles, CAPosts: 3,042Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Normike

    Originally posted by kishe

    My biggest gripe: They're trying to make a MMO with static singleplayer storyline that offers little to no replay value to a mmorpg player.

     

    grand singleplayer storyline doesnt work for a mmorpg. Just imagine if they'd make Mass Effect online and you'd have 10000 john shepards queued up to take their turns to save the world from same sentient machine.

     

    You're confusing a grand single player hero storyline with a grand MMO storyline. If you have five people in your group the quest giver doesn't think you are five John Shepards. Each person in the group is just as important, unless it's a class specific quest. I doubt the main story for the MMO is "single hero saves the star wars universe."

     

    All MMOs usually have static storyline and add on to it with expansions. How many times has Cazic Thul, Illidan, the Lich King been killed?  It sounds like you're saying that the usual boring background story in MMOs doesn't matter because people already ignore it. But making a better more engaging MMO story is bad?

     Kishe obviously hasn't done his (her?) research, is a failed troll, or has his (her?) head stuck in the Sandbox (no pun intended). This is not a Sandbox game. This is not SWG. What he (she?) did describe is just about all successful games to date but is a growing failing model due the boredom it is creating over time with people who have played MMOs for quite some time. This game is creating a branching storyline opening up other possibilities increasing the replayability factor due to this because the story will be different depending on the choices you may. Now how different we don't know yet. I'm optimistic that it is not like WOW where the starting areas are different but from levels 20-85 it is basically the same for everyone. I think this will be a different experience for everyone beyond the early levels because of the continued branching storyline. Is it scripted. Yes, but the branching choices, the unknown outcome of which choice will win in a group, the voicework, and the immersion will make it much more interesting and help bring back the RPG to MMORPG.

    There Is Always Hope!

  • DeeweDeewe Long Beach, CAPosts: 1,965Member

    Originally posted by GMan3

    Originally posted by Deewe


    *** snip ***

     Proof for ALL of your claims please.  Links and all.  Maybe even some video footage.

     

    Most of your answers are there

    Kudos to TheDarkKnight.

  • GMan3GMan3 Ewa Beach, HIPosts: 2,127Member

    Originally posted by Deewe

    Originally posted by GMan3

    Originally posted by Deewe

    *** snip ***

     Proof for ALL of your claims please.  Links and all.  Maybe even some video footage.

     Most of your answers are there

    Kudos to TheDarkKnight.

         I checked out your link and most of the stuff listed actually refutes your claims or at least the twist you have put on your claims.  The problem I found is that you did not actually follow the links inside that post and get the full information.  What I am asking for is your YOUR proof for your claims, that is not a twisting of what other people are saying or purposefully leaving out what people have said to back up your argument.

        I am not trying to get into a flame fest with you Deewe, but your arguments just don't hold water, at least no better than a bucket with no bottom does.  So please provide the links and the proof.  Thanks.

    "If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"

  • DeeweDeewe Long Beach, CAPosts: 1,965Member

    Originally posted by GMan3

     

        I am not trying to get into a flame fest with you Deewe, but your arguments just don't hold water, at least no better than a bucket with no bottom does.  So please provide the links and the proof.  Thanks.

    You might want to check the OP as I edited it following your request.

     

    Now as we both don't want to waste too much time, (it was quite time consuming to find decent links), if you still find a very specific entry you'd like me to highlight just point me to it.

    May I add a thing to consider?

    Regarding the very few  assumptions I did in my OP, I'd like to point you to this post: The big GUESS thread... see you in 2009-10I wrote it in 11/2008 and most of my guesses on TOR were quite accurate.

     

    I insist saying TOR will be a fine game and still, some design choices are a bit disturbing, or would I said not of my liking.

  • GMan3GMan3 Ewa Beach, HIPosts: 2,127Member

    Originally posted by Deewe

     


    No Advanced Classes respec


    No multiplayer space combat, PvE & PvP wise


    Very short space combat scenarios: 2-8 minutes only


    No fighter type small space ships


    No choice of space ships chassis


    No planetary housing (instanced or not)


    Maybe not even guild halls


    No day/night cycles


    [edit:  init 6 <  thread]


     


    It's SW, made by BioWare ==> should be awesome.


     


    However, not very fond of:


     


    1) Graphics:


    • Looks a bit too much cartoonish, like some plastic looking textures Wookiee, The beast , the mob (Yep, these characters look JUST LIKE WoW.  Oh wait, they don't.)


    • Models based on heroic proportions and big shoulder pads #1 #2


    • Usage of fantasy looking features:


      • Voodoo Priest gear, (Heck have you even seen a fashion show lately?  Some of that stuff is even more "way out" than the stuff you see in this game.)


      • Spiky shoulder pads #1 #2, (I kind of like them.  Just a matter of opinion.)


      • Sith Pureblood like red skinned Blood elves (To me they look more like humans with vestigal tentacles on there faces, red skin and yellow eyes.  Considering that they are actually a human/sith crossbreed, that makes sense too.)


      • Trandoshan = goblins from a fantasy MMO (Really?  I Thought it looked just like the movie personally.)


        Completely subjective and your opinion is NOT the only one that counts.  This game is being made for masses of people, not just you.


     


    2) Restrictions


    • "Required" companions for PvP, PUGs and RAIDs.


      • James Ohlen: "Right now we are assuming that you are using your companion character. If you don’t use your companion you will be at a big disadvantage because all the DPS that your companion would be doing isn’t going to be there. So there is no point to not bring your companion character, unless you want to challenge yourself by not bringing him around." (So what I am reading here is that you have a CHOICE in this game and if you want a harder experience, then play it without a companion.  That's awesome in my opinion.)



    • No Advanced Classes respec (Said theymight consider it at a point)  (Not a problem since I don't use respects.  I like to keep it more realistic and learn to live with the choices I make.  But since you already mentioned they are looking to put respecs in later I don't see a problem with that either for the people who want them.)


    • Not choice for space ship chassis as based on character class and certainly only one chassis per class.  (This surprises you at launch?  Exactly how many do you think they should have at launch?  Wait, don't bother answering that.  I actually already answered this in 2 nother threads though, so just look up my posts and you can see a pretty good explaination there.)


    • No non humanoid playable races


      • Daniel Erickson: "Namely that lead characters in an RPG must be something the player can relate to. There has never been a movie or major Star Wars series with a complete freak job as the lead and that's because dramatically it doesn't work. We don't understand what it means to be a giant lizard or a droid or a walking ball of jelly. We love the weird characters but they are always the sidekicks, not the emotional connection in the movie. To do an RPG that way every NPC you ran into would have to react to you depending on their own cultural bias and the entire "into the strange" adventure that is Star Wars would be lost as you would be the strangest thing in the room.  (So what, you want to play a horse?  Or maybe a slug with arms?  Completely subjective.  Personally I have no problem playing a human-ish character since I find slugs rather repulsive.)



    • Gear vs look struggle:



      • James Ohlen: "you're gonna find some pants that don't match your current stuff but it's better so for the people who really are like trying to max up their statistics they are going to put thoses in ... you're gonna have the player who waits because they care more about what they look like then you know the statistics"




      • No gear dyes, at best class limited color palette. Based on the fact that each class has iconic color palette (same for planets)  (That sentence I highlighted in red completely cotradicted itself.  There is not gear dyes but is a color palette for the game?  Well which is it?  I have seen the quote before and I admit to being confused by the statement myself, so maybe you can explain it a little more clearly?)






    • Twin syndrome for companions as no body customization for them.


      • Alex Freed: Can customize companion via equipment similar to Mass Effect  (They are your companion, not your slave that you can get surgery on to alter any way you choose.  I don't have a problem with that either.)


      •  




    3) Alternative game play only for space content


    • Very short space combat scenarios: 2-8 minutes only 


    • No fighter type small space ships


    • No multiplayer space combat, PvE & PvP wise


    • Ref: PC Gamer

        (If this really bothers you so much I would suggest playing Eve Online.  The Star Wars movies never even used space combat as anything more than filler and to add a little extra umph to the movies.  The real story was about the character development.  So it seems they are living up to the movies here.  Good for BioWare.)


    4) PvP


    • PvP specific gear (more mess to manage and gear to grind)


    • Maybe no companion less Warzones.


    • So far only 8 vs. 8 players zones

        (They have specifically said that there is another form of warzone PvP coming as well as free zone pvp.  Time to be patient and see where that leads instead of jumping to conclusions.)


     


    5) Lack of things that could have been fun


    • No animal based pet classes... unless #1 #2  (Unless they just haven't announced them yet.  Even so, not a big loss if they don't in my book.)


    • No display pets, seen none so far... but above?


    • No planetary housing, instanced or not. (Would be glad to be wrong) (How many MMO's actually provide for this?  I personally hope that there are not any or if there is it is instanced so that everyone that goes to a certain door gets shunted to "their house".)


      • Maybe not even guild halls (If I remember right they said no guild ships at launch but are looking to do that soon after.  I don't remember the particular article/interview it was in, but as soon as I find it I will provide the link.)



    • No day/night cycles (Based on the fact that each planet has a specific mood achieved through music and color palette)


      • Jeff Dobson: More significantly, where the planet of Korriban is in a perpetual sunset, Tython is lit with the colors of morning. This choice to light each planet with a particular time of day implies something about the optimism of the Jedi and the end of hope for the Sith. (I will agree with you here.  I will also go on to say that I hope that they have weather effects since I hate games that are perpetually clear skies and sunny weather.  Give me a rainstorm once in a while to break the monotony.  Still, this is one statement and not a very clear one at that.)


    No player bounties ;)




      • Bit after the forum launch they said when a feature can be unfun for one of the parties involved it has no place in a BioWare game. Plus there's no equivalent to the BH class on the republic side.


    (Most games I have played that lets you play both sides have slightly different classes so this is normal to me, even prefereable since it adds to the diversity.  As for player bounties . . . forcing someone to PvP would not be fun for a LOT of people.  I generally do not like PvPing, though I plan on trying out this version, and being told I had to would push me away from this game entirely.  Then there is always the problem of the person you have a bounty on just logging of for whatever reason.  That sounds like a lot of fun doesn't it - "Oh he's on Tatooine, let me take 20 minutes to run to my ship and fly there real quick . . . Crap, where did he go?"  Haha, no thanks!)


     


    The game will be polished for sure, maybe not as much as WoW is now. But it feels very restricted at this point.


     


     


    ==> You best source of information on TOR is  here, kudo's to TheDarkKnight

         OK, my answers to your OP are in Green above.  In short it appears you want to restrict the races and their equipment options, remove a persons choice of playing a normal or hard mode, enslave your companion and force them to submit to your competic pleasures, and make it so there is almost no difference in being a Sith or a Republican by destroying class differences.  Then YOU would add respecs that may already be in the works, pet companions that can do nothing more than fight thereby ruining your companions versatility, add more space combat that actually goes against the Star Wars movies, and force people to PvP even if they don't want too.  On top of all that, you make assumptions about planetary housing, gear alterations, and day/night cycles that you can not prove.

        Maybe if you had made the name of this thread "A Few Things That Might Limit My Fun Factor" then people would have read your post and let it go.  Instead you seem to be taking on the Masses here and a lot of us don't seem to agree with you.  In the end though, all of your problems (and our disagreements) are pretty subjective and just not worth arguing about anymore.  I would suggest that instead of complaining, you wait for some more information to come out OR send a note to BioWare itself since they are the only ones that can change things at this point.

    "If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"

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