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The 'Group Play vs Solo Play in an MMO' Thread

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  • z80paranoiaz80paranoia chicago, ILPosts: 410Member


    Originally posted by Murashu

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3871007#3871007
    response to post #733



    #1. I see your point on number one.

    #2. Using WoW, No, they would only need to make one set of challenges for each set of rewards. Not 30. not even 1 per class. Some challenges would simply be easier for some classes than others (which is no different than raid content which will be easier for some group class combinations than others). Should they make separate raid instances for each of the dozens of possible class combinations too? No. They do groups content in a one size fits all fashion (aside from the 10 and 25 size variations). If some group combos have it easier than others, oh well. Same logic would be applied for soloable challenges, if some classes excel at some of the challenges better than others, oh well.

    In other words, it would be not much different from the initial soloable (or at least in some cases 5 man pugable) leveling up process. But instead of gaining levels, you gain gear. You know, some classes level better than others but they don't make 10 or however many different versions of each quest during the leveling process. They just accept that some classes will solo better than others. But that's when you do the lfg or get your guildies to help you out (exactly like when leveling up).

    #3. I see your point here as well.

    Guild Wars 2 is my religion

  • BeartosserBeartosser Toronto, ONPosts: 92Member

    From everything I've been reading about Guild Wars 2, it seems to be the go to game for solo players in the near future. Their Dynamic Event System is an example of the kind of scaleable content that raiders have been claiming is too time consuming for devs to create on a useable level on boards like this for years.

    That Dynamic Event System will allow solo players to jump in without being subjected to the whims of  others, since no formal grouping is required. All players who deal damage to the mobs in the event will be rewarded for their efforts by the AI, thereby removing dkp pyramid schemes from the equation.

    Some events will be as difficult as dungeons, and will yeild similar rewards, therefore solo players will for the first time be fully rewarded for their efforts in an MMO. Even the dungeons will be limited to 5 person groups, so the small group lovers who have been thrown to the curb by the 10 and 25 person obsessed WoW devs will also finally be rewarded for their efforts as well.

  • MurashuMurashu Ft Rucker, ALPosts: 1,394Member

    Originally posted by z80paranoia

     

    #2. Using WoW, No, they would only need to make one set of challenges for each set of rewards. Not 30. not even 1 per class. Some challenges would simply be easier for some classes than others (which is no different than raid content which will be easier for some group class combinations than others). Should they make separate raid instances for each of the dozens of possible class combinations too? No. They do groups content in a one size fits all fashion (aside from the 10 and 25 size variations). If some group combos have it easier than others, oh well. Same logic would be applied for soloable challenges, if some classes excel at some of the challenges better than others, oh well.

    WoW raids are balanced around a set number of tanks, healers, and DPSers. They are not balanced around 10 tanks or 10 healers or even 10 DPSers so yes they do have a specific balance in mind when they are made. Minor variances can me made, but EVERY raid in WoW is based on the tank/healer/dps concept. Although WoW raids aren't as challenging as other MMOs, they still require more effort from each individual than any solo content in game. If solo "raid" content was tuned up in challenge like current raid content, it would become impossible for some classes and still too easy for other classes, unless specifically designed per class/subclass. I would really love to see a rogue solo the Lady Dreamwalker encounter in ICC.

    www.agonysend.org

  • BeartosserBeartosser Toronto, ONPosts: 92Member

    There is solo content in WoW that is infinately more difficult than anything raiders can encounter. Solo players can and do engage mobs against which their mathematical chance of success is 0%.

    A more important question to answer is why do raiders need gear that's more effective against mobs that can be engaged solo than players who actually specialize in the solo playstyle?

  • VercinVercin Frederick, MDPosts: 290Member

    I like to solo in mmos and I like to group.

    The problem is in most mmos is that grouping garners you less exp then soloing.  Back when I played everquest 1 we would group with the same people over and over and grind for hours. Whenever I was leveling in WOW my friends would never want to group because you actually got less exp for kills in groups.

    Some games give a good bonus for grouping.

    Also since games have so many quests in them now , most of the time you join a group only to find they did the quests you need so there is no point in grouping.

     Solo should give decent experience and group grind should give greater exp. Problem is most games don't do both at the same time.

     

    The Stranger: It's what people know about themselves inside that makes 'em afraid.

  • z80paranoiaz80paranoia chicago, ILPosts: 410Member


    Originally posted by Murashu

    Originally posted by z80paranoia
     
    #2. Using WoW, No, they would only need to make one set of challenges for each set of rewards. Not 30. not even 1 per class. Some challenges would simply be easier for some classes than others (which is no different than raid content which will be easier for some group class combinations than others). Should they make separate raid instances for each of the dozens of possible class combinations too? No. They do groups content in a one size fits all fashion (aside from the 10 and 25 size variations). If some group combos have it easier than others, oh well. Same logic would be applied for soloable challenges, if some classes excel at some of the challenges better than others, oh well.
    WoW raids are balanced around a set number of tanks, healers, and DPSers. They are not balanced around 10 tanks or 10 healers or even 10 DPSers so yes they do have a specific balance in mind when they are made. Minor variances can me made, but EVERY raid in WoW is based on the tank/healer/dps concept. Although WoW raids aren't as challenging as other MMOs, they still require more effort from each individual than any solo content in game. If solo "raid" content was tuned up in challenge like current raid content, it would become impossible for some classes and still too easy for other classes, unless specifically designed per class/subclass. I would really love to see a rogue solo the Lady Dreamwalker encounter in ICC.

    I get what you are saying about raid instance group makeups now. I hope you reread what I've said to you and understand I was not talking about solo raid instances. That would be incredibly boring. I've played other games where I was alone in instanced content and totally strictly soloed through them and it was not very fun.

    If I was speaking of solo raid instances you would have a point about needing to make one or more per class. But I was not. What I am talking about is the same kind of content one experiences during the leveling process but with gear progression instead of level progression. This way players could reach the level cap and still continue to play and progress the way they did while leveling up. During leveling up, there were no separate zones for healers and warriors etc, there were just zones. If your level was high enough you did fine. Some classes were inherently easier than others, but that was fine.

    The "big" issue with WoW and similarly designed games is the only means of PvE progression is by raiding. Progression for solo PvE play simply vanishes. I'm telling you that the better gear would not be trivial if there was the same kind of soloable progression offered at the cap as during leveling but with gear as the reward instead of levels. What I am not claiming is that this be instanced like raids but with just one player doing everything. My point still stands that they would only need a one size fits all (exactly like with the zones you progress through while leveling up) solution. Not every mob would literally be soloable, some would require 2 or 5 people, just like when leveling. I hope explained it well enough this time.

    Do you get what I'm saying now? "Public" content with zones and all that replicates the leveling process but with loot (that is on par with raid gear) as the reward instead of levels. This would allow the loot to not trivialize the content. Obviously the progression would have to be slower than normal leveling since endgame is designed to slow things down until the expansion comes out.

    Realistically, I don't expect games with raid-centric PvE endgames to do this. I respect that these games are designed to expel soloers in their endgames and that we are basically expected to simply quit the game at that point. I'm ok with that. I get to the end and cancel my sub. No problem. I am simply telling you how they could keep my subscription from getting canceled and probably many others. I don't think there's any harm in saying what I like though, you never know, somebody might make a good mmo that will keep me and those like me subbing for many years.

    Guild Wars 2 is shaping to be a soloers, "alone-together-ists" wet dream. There is no one way to get the best loot stats. Dungeon loot just looks better. So basically, if you don't mind looking a bit unfashionable, you don't have to do instance runs. Even then, their instances, reportedly, will be 5 player, which I enjoy a lot. It really feels like they read my mind and are making a game based on what they saw inside of it so I'm happy.

    Guild Wars 2 is my religion

  • z80paranoiaz80paranoia chicago, ILPosts: 410Member


    Originally posted by Beartosser
    From everything I've been reading about Guild Wars 2, it seems to be the go to game for solo players in the near future. Their Dynamic Event System is an example of the kind of scaleable content that raiders have been claiming is too time consuming for devs to create on a useable level on boards like this for years.
    That Dynamic Event System will allow solo players to jump in without being subjected to the whims of  others, since no formal grouping is required. All players who deal damage to the mobs in the event will be rewarded for their efforts by the AI, thereby removing dkp pyramid schemes from the equation.
    Some events will be as difficult as dungeons, and will yeild similar rewards, therefore solo players will for the first time be fully rewarded for their efforts in an MMO. Even the dungeons will be limited to 5 person groups, so the small group lovers who have been thrown to the curb by the 10 and 25 person obsessed WoW devs will also finally be rewarded for their efforts as well.

    Exactly. This is why I am so geeked about this game. A loot-drama free system that rewards stat gains equally across play-styles.

    Guild Wars 2 is my religion

  • jaxsundanejaxsundane milwaukee, WIPosts: 2,776Member

    Originally posted by z80paranoia

     




    Originally posted by Murashu





    Originally posted by z80paranoia

     

    #2. Using WoW, No, they would only need to make one set of challenges for each set of rewards. Not 30. not even 1 per class. Some challenges would simply be easier for some classes than others (which is no different than raid content which will be easier for some group class combinations than others). Should they make separate raid instances for each of the dozens of possible class combinations too? No. They do groups content in a one size fits all fashion (aside from the 10 and 25 size variations). If some group combos have it easier than others, oh well. Same logic would be applied for soloable challenges, if some classes excel at some of the challenges better than others, oh well.






    WoW raids are balanced around a set number of tanks, healers, and DPSers. They are not balanced around 10 tanks or 10 healers or even 10 DPSers so yes they do have a specific balance in mind when they are made. Minor variances can me made, but EVERY raid in WoW is based on the tank/healer/dps concept. Although WoW raids aren't as challenging as other MMOs, they still require more effort from each individual than any solo content in game. If solo "raid" content was tuned up in challenge like current raid content, it would become impossible for some classes and still too easy for other classes, unless specifically designed per class/subclass. I would really love to see a rogue solo the Lady Dreamwalker encounter in ICC.



     

    I get what you are saying about raid instance group makeups now. I hope you reread what I've said to you and understand I was not talking about solo raid instances. That would be incredibly boring. I've played other games where I was alone in instanced content and totally strictly soloed through them and it was not very fun.

    If I was speaking of solo raid instances you would have a point about needing to make one or more per class. But I was not. What I am talking about is the same kind of content one experiences during the leveling process but with gear progression instead of level progression. This way players could reach the level cap and still continue to play and progress the way they did while leveling up. During leveling up, there were no separate zones for healers and warriors etc, there were just zones. If your level was high enough you did fine. Some classes were inherently easier than others, but that was fine.

    The "big" issue with WoW and similarly designed games is the only means of PvE progression is by raiding. Progression for solo PvE play simply vanishes. I'm telling you that the better gear would not be trivial if there was the same kind of soloable progression offered at the cap as during leveling but with gear as the reward instead of levels. What I am not claiming is that this be instanced like raids but with just one player doing everything. My point still stands that they would only need a one size fits all (exactly like with the zones you progress through while leveling up) solution. Not every mob would literally be soloable, some would require 2 or 5 people, just like when leveling. I hope explained it well enough this time.

    Do you get what I'm saying now? "Public" content with zones and all that replicates the leveling process but with loot (that is on par with raid gear) as the reward instead of levels. This would allow the loot to not trivialize the content. Obviously the progression would have to be slower than normal leveling since endgame is designed to slow things down until the expansion comes out.

    Realistically, I don't expect games with raid-centric PvE endgames to do this. I respect that these games are designed to expel soloers in their endgames and that we are basically expected to simply quit the game at that point. I'm ok with that. I get to the end and cancel my sub. No problem. I am simply telling you how they could keep my subscription from getting canceled and probably many others. I don't think there's any harm in saying what I like though, you never know, somebody might make a good mmo that will keep me and those like me subbing for many years.

    Guild Wars 2 is shaping to be a soloers, "alone-together-ists" wet dream. There is no one way to get the best loot stats. Dungeon loot just looks better. So basically, if you don't mind looking a bit unfashionable, you don't have to do instance runs. Even then, their instances, reportedly, will be 5 player, which I enjoy a lot. It really feels like they read my mind and are making a game based on what they saw inside of it so I'm happy.

     I enjoyed reading your post because it sums up my thinking with mmorpgs I really enjoy playing solo,  I'm not saying that this is better than grouping just that as those who prefer grouping can point out things that bother them about soloing I can say that those things don't bother me and I actually find fault with things that unfortunately come mostly from grouping.

    I have often been in the same boat as you I've played quite a few mmorpgs and have really liked a few of them but once I reach end game they simply lose my sub money because the prospect of any solo progression just vanishes.  Luckily right now I'm playing LOTRO which has alleviated this some with the legendary weapon system but much of what passes for endgame content works the exact same for that game as others like WOW.

    I feel you in that I'm not here complain about it I feel I have gotten my money's worth from games where this happened to me but hopefully more devs will look at other things like the legendary weapon system employed by LOTRO and other things that can ensure that folks who prefer to solo will stick around like the raiders do.  And generally I don't think of my self as an exclusionist and am not advocating that raid content should be discountinued just that more devs should think of adding systems in place that will only help them and group players in the long run by keeping more revenue coming in.

    but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....

  • AzzatakyAzzataky PraguePosts: 207Member

    Hm group play vs solo play is kinda ridiculous dont you think? We have here singe player games and MMOs - massive multiplayer games. So single player games are made to be played by single player and MMOs? Should be made for group stuff. Its true that you need some solo stuff because you cant group 24/7 but as someone said that WoW has perfect balance of it is wrong. You can solo max lvl in WoW which is creapy. Its true i played WoW and I enjoyed leveling kinda but if it would be single player game I could enjoy it even more. WoW makes single player players play together, on the other hand most of other MMOs are trying to make ppl play together as a group, not a bunch of individualities. (by other games I mean "not WoW like" games like Lineage 2, AoC, EvE even Lotro - before the group quests was made more easy - not sure how its now)

    Single player MMO content is just boring, imo. I was playing Ragnarok Online and noone wanted me as monk to group cause I would just "take" more exp that I can produce, also WoW is kinda same, you get more solo so you do solo. You can play WoW without guild, you cant play GW without guild, L2, EvE etc.. And by you cant play I mean you cant do play sieges in L2 solo you cant play GvG or Alliance Battles solo in GW, also in EvE you are nothing if you play solo (except maybe if you are realy good trader) , in WoW you dont need guild, you can solo max lvl to dungeons get random groups get better equip and if they know you from "lower" dungeons they will ply take you to "higher" dungeons. I cant find anything in WoW which would make you to get guild except to connect with other ppl. Maybe HC 25 man raid? Best group play has ply EvE because it makes you to choose some corporation so other player wont eat you. :) Also Lotro has realy great group content when I was playing it, even Age of Conan, both PvE and PvP (also not sure how its now).

    Group play FTW!

    Played: Lineage 2,Guild Wars 1 and 2, Age of Conan, Ragnarok Online, LOTRO, World of Warcraft, League of Legends, EvE online
    Tried: KAL Online, Face of Mankind, ROSE online
    Playing: CS:GO

  • SpliceMainSpliceMain Baltimore, MDPosts: 14Member


    I played WoW for over 3 years.  I took 5 toons to 70.  I enjoyed it.  These characters could support one another via crafting.  Of course, I had to farm the mats either to use myself or to sell in the AH. But guess what would happen (often) when I went out to farm drops from mobs?  One single player with a raid or pvp geared toon could clear an area faster than I could take down a mob or 2!  We were both 70s but the gear discrepancy was enormous.  Maybe these players need the gear in PVP or raid instances.  I don’t care if they do or don’t.  But they don’t need it in the world at large any more than the group-centric players say that I do.  Yet there they were, grossly out performing me while competing for materials.  So yeah, I needed the best gear in order to compete while farming. 


     


    I reject the notion that a solo player getting the best gear insults or cheapens the “achievements” of raiders.  The “reward” for raiding is the raid content itself!  Do it for the fun!  So what if I get great gear by other means?  How does that affect a raider’s experience?  It doesn’t. 


     


    I talked about players I called “loot conscripts” back in July.  No one has discussed my assertion that it is a desire to recruit and retain these “loot conscripts” by guilds that constitutes the primary reason for keeping the best gear unavailable to solo players.  The loot conscripts wouldn’t raid if they didn’t have to in order to get the gear they want.  They might elect to go solo instead, thereby reducing the bodies needed to fill raid slots.  The guild leaders might enjoy the content for its own sake ( the best of all reasons for raiding) but can’t rely on finding enough others willing put up with the tedium and trouble inherent in raids without the allure of exclusive loot.  To wit. exclusive loot helps to coerce players into playing a style they otherwise might abandon.  How bankrupt is that?   Fess up, you grouping field marshal types!  Admit that you rely on loot conscripts! Admit that without exclusive loot you fear that your favorite playstyle is doomed!      


     


    I don’t think raiding is doomed by great loot for solo players.  Solo and group players seldom encounter one another in the world.  No one on my old server would have been injured at all if I could have made or purchased the best gear. 


  • UsualSuspectUsualSuspect CardiffPosts: 1,243Member

    Originally posted by SpliceMain



    I played WoW for over 3 years.  I took 5 toons to 70.  I enjoyed it.  These characters could support one another via crafting.  Of course, I had to farm the mats either to use myself or to sell in the AH. But guess what would happen (often) when I went out to farm drops from mobs?  One single player with a raid or pvp geared toon could clear an area faster than I could take down a mob or 2!  We were both 70s but the gear discrepancy was enormous.  Maybe these players need the gear in PVP or raid instances.  I don’t care if they do or don’t.  But they don’t need it in the world at large any more than the group-centric players say that I do.  Yet there they were, grossly out performing me while competing for materials.  So yeah, I needed the best gear in order to compete while farming. 


     


    I reject the notion that a solo player getting the best gear insults or cheapens the “achievements” of raiders.  The “reward” for raiding is the raid content itself!  Do it for the fun!  So what if I get great gear by other means?  How does that affect a raider’s experience?  It doesn’t. 


    Aww, that's a sad story. The person who had taken the effort to gather 20 other people and had fought challenges you won't even bother attempting is better than you? Wow, who would have thought it.. It's like an unemployed person whining because that rich dude has a Ferarri and he doesn't. We should all be given a Ferarri, it wouldn't cheapen that rich dudes achievements, no, the reward should be the work he did! Why shouldn't I get a Ferarri while on unemployment benefits?

    This is one of the main things I see from soloers, considering the posts all along this thread, they're inherently selfish. Groupers want to help their fellow players to gather gear and experience. Soloers want it all for themselves, and if they can't get it for themselves then they'll just whine, "Whyyyy?!".

  • SwampRobSwampRob Halifax, NSPosts: 1,008Member

    Originally posted by UsualSuspect

    This is one of the main things I see from soloers, considering the posts all along this thread, they're inherently selfish. Groupers want to help their fellow players to gather gear and experience. Soloers want it all for themselves, and if they can't get it for themselves then they'll just whine, "Whyyyy?!".

    Oh, please.    Groupers want to help their fellow players?       The majority of groupers only group up because the game requires them to do so to get the gear they want.    These people don't care about what their fellow players get, they group solely as a means to an end.   Do you honestly believe otherwise?

    Also, since you're pro-grouping and grouping currently offers the best endgame rewards, OF COURSE you want the status quo to continue, because it benefits your playstyle the most.    But soloers are selfish?

    Look, as I stated in another post:    At endgame, groupers get progressively more difficult content resulting in progressively better rewards.     That's all most soloers want.   Progressive content that rewards their playstyle in the same way.   

    And the real kicker is that most games let them do that until the endgame, and then forces them to become groupers to continue to get the same treatment.      Soloers want their playstyle to be treated and rewarded equally to groupers, where most groupers want their playstyle to be rewarded with superior loot.     But, soloers are the ones being selfish, right?

  • jaxsundanejaxsundane milwaukee, WIPosts: 2,776Member

    Originally posted by UsualSuspect

    Originally posted by SpliceMain



    I played WoW for over 3 years.  I took 5 toons to 70.  I enjoyed it.  These characters could support one another via crafting.  Of course, I had to farm the mats either to use myself or to sell in the AH. But guess what would happen (often) when I went out to farm drops from mobs?  One single player with a raid or pvp geared toon could clear an area faster than I could take down a mob or 2!  We were both 70s but the gear discrepancy was enormous.  Maybe these players need the gear in PVP or raid instances.  I don’t care if they do or don’t.  But they don’t need it in the world at large any more than the group-centric players say that I do.  Yet there they were, grossly out performing me while competing for materials.  So yeah, I needed the best gear in order to compete while farming. 


     


    I reject the notion that a solo player getting the best gear insults or cheapens the “achievements” of raiders.  The “reward” for raiding is the raid content itself!  Do it for the fun!  So what if I get great gear by other means?  How does that affect a raider’s experience?  It doesn’t. 


    Aww, that's a sad story. The person who had taken the effort to gather 20 other people and had fought challenges you won't even bother attempting is better than you? Wow, who would have thought it.. It's like an unemployed person whining because that rich dude has a Ferarri and he doesn't. We should all be given a Ferarri, it wouldn't cheapen that rich dudes achievements, no, the reward should be the work he did! Why shouldn't I get a Ferarri while on unemployment benefits?

    This is one of the main things I see from soloers, considering the posts all along this thread, they're inherently selfish. Groupers want to help their fellow players to gather gear and experience. Soloers want it all for themselves, and if they can't get it for themselves then they'll just whine, "Whyyyy?!".

     These are the type of generalizations that start flame wars but I'm not going to bite on this one myself.  I am a "soloer" and I take offense at the implication that I am that way because I am a selfish player as much as I take offense in the implication that people who group for raid content do it to help each other, they do it to help themselves to the fat loot that isn't attainable solo.

    I enjoy grouping in setting that I like to play in which is generally in the more faster paced solo contentm, I may spend five hours in one session but I loathe to spend that five hours in one setting or dungeon nothing more nothing less.

    Using LOTRO as an example I recently entered Mirkwood for the first time (as I have enjoyed the game so much I didn't rush to it) and during the first two quest hubs I moved along at a thouroughly brisk pace to move further inland and at both of the first two hubs I went through I encountered a few lower level players that I saw were on the way to try and tackle the content I just had went through, knowing the difficulty they would encounter I offered to group up with them to help them out.  As I moed along slicing through the enemies we faced they finally noticed I was not interacting with any of the quest objects to ask "do you not have this quest" and my response was "no I just got done with these but seeing as how I was level 61 when I started them I knew the trouble you might face soloing this".  I've made a couple of friends for life now, and that doesn't sound like selfishness to me.

    but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....

  • UsualSuspectUsualSuspect CardiffPosts: 1,243Member

    Originally posted by SwampRob

    Oh, please.    Groupers want to help their fellow players?       The majority of groupers only group up because the game requires them to do so to get the gear they want.    These people don't care about what their fellow players get, they group solely as a means to an end.   Do you honestly believe otherwise?

    Also, since you're pro-grouping and grouping currently offers the best endgame rewards, OF COURSE you want the status quo to continue, because it benefits your playstyle the most.    But soloers are selfish?

    Look, as I stated in another post:    At endgame, groupers get progressively more difficult content resulting in progressively better rewards.     That's all most soloers want.   Progressive content that rewards their playstyle in the same way.   

    And the real kicker is that most games let them do that until the endgame, and then forces them to become groupers to continue to get the same treatment.      Soloers want their playstyle to be treated and rewarded equally to groupers, where most groupers want their playstyle to be rewarded with superior loot.     But, soloers are the ones being selfish, right?

    I'll agree with you, in the more recent games, pretty much anything from WoW onwards, grouping only occurs so people can get what they want. The reason for that is purely because of the massive amount of solo content that these games have now - you can solo from 1 to MAX without ever even looking at another player. So of course, when it comes to grouping most people are going to see it as frustrating or a means to an end, nothing more, because they've spent the entire game on their own up unitl that point.

    Soloing, and more importantly content that allows soloing for almost the entire game, kills communities stone dead. When you look back at a game like EverQuest that almost required grouping all through the game, you'll see that people enjoy grouping with others, offer help in dungeons or quests for no other reason than to help someone out, selfish only appeared with the rise of soloers.

    So are groupers really selfish? Groupers want to keep group content because they see how it makes an impact on the community of a game. If you have no community in an MMO then it's a purely shallow experience as the gameplay is never as good as a single player game. It's the people that make it great.

  • UsualSuspectUsualSuspect CardiffPosts: 1,243Member

    Originally posted by jaxsundane

    Using LOTRO as an example I recently entered Mirkwood for the first time (as I have enjoyed the game so much I didn't rush to it) and during the first two quest hubs I moved along at a thouroughly brisk pace to move further inland and at both of the first two hubs I went through I encountered a few lower level players that I saw were on the way to try and tackle the content I just had went through, knowing the difficulty they would encounter I offered to group up with them to help them out.  As I moed along slicing through the enemies we faced they finally noticed I was not interacting with any of the quest objects to ask "do you not have this quest" and my response was "no I just got done with these but seeing as how I was level 61 when I started them I knew the trouble you might face soloing this".  I've made a couple of friends for life now, and that doesn't sound like selfishness to me.

    I fail to see your point. So you're a soloer but when you did decide to group and help out some people, you made a couple of friends 'for life'. If you were soloing the entire time you wouldn't have met or teamed with these people, but because you grouped friendships have formed and you had a good time.

    I fail to see how this means soloing is the better option?

  • mmogawdmmogawd some city, CAPosts: 732Member

    Originally posted by UsualSuspect

    Originally posted by jaxsundane



    Using LOTRO as an example I recently entered Mirkwood for the first time (as I have enjoyed the game so much I didn't rush to it) and during the first two quest hubs I moved along at a thouroughly brisk pace to move further inland and at both of the first two hubs I went through I encountered a few lower level players that I saw were on the way to try and tackle the content I just had went through, knowing the difficulty they would encounter I offered to group up with them to help them out.  As I moed along slicing through the enemies we faced they finally noticed I was not interacting with any of the quest objects to ask "do you not have this quest" and my response was "no I just got done with these but seeing as how I was level 61 when I started them I knew the trouble you might face soloing this".  I've made a couple of friends for life now, and that doesn't sound like selfishness to me.

    I fail to see your point. So you're a soloer but when you did decide to group and help out some people, you made a couple of friends 'for life'. If you were soloing the entire time you wouldn't have met or teamed with these people, but because you grouped friendships have formed and you had a good time.

    I fail to see how this means soloing is the better option?

    I think his point is that he grouped up BY CHOICE, and made friends for life.  He didn't group up because he was forced to in order to get some shiny piece of armor.

    This is a recurring point that is made in this thread that is ignored by "groupers".

  • GutlardGutlard Indianapolis, INPosts: 38Member

    Nah, I like the thread I posted in better....imageimage

     

    Gutlard Out!

    What, me worry?

  • UsualSuspectUsualSuspect CardiffPosts: 1,243Member

    Originally posted by mmogawd

    I think his point is that he grouped up BY CHOICE, and made friends for life.  He didn't group up because he was forced to in order to get some shiny piece of armor.

    This is a recurring point that is made in this thread that is ignored by "groupers".

    If the argument against grouping is that it's purely there to gather gear, then sure, I'll agree with you, it sucks. The point is, it should never be about that, MMO's should not be soloable from start to end with a little bit of grouping for extra equipment. I don't know about the rest of the pro-groupers but that, to me, sounds awful. Grouping should be a part of the game as a whole, so people get used to the idea of working together, be it for a little experience or to finish quests. Let the community grow through interaction with your fellow players, not through global chat about the latest X-Box game and how great Chuck Norris is.

    I think the large majority of pro-soloers started their MMO lives with World of Warcraft, and if that's true then I can truly understand the bitterness against grouping. MMO's from WoW onwards have been plain awful when it comes to integrating grouping, I haven't found one worth a damn (except a few golden moments in LOTRO) since EverQuest.

  • SpliceMainSpliceMain Baltimore, MDPosts: 14Member

    Usual Suspect, you should know better than to rely on the old, worn out arguments that compare a game to Real Life.  This is a GAME!  It can be fair, unlike life, which manifestly is not.  We all pay the same money to play.  Still RL isn’t such a good example for you.  In your analogy, you assume the Ferrari owner worked hard to earn the car when he might as easily have inherited the money.   Deserving property has no bearing on possessing it in RL, so why should solo players pass some sort of “deserving test” to have good gear in a game? 


     


    In an early post someone said grouping was like running a marathon.  He made the argument for solo play not against it!  A marathon is a solo activity.  It might be more fun in the presence of other runners but one need not  group to do it.  The Boston Marathon sounds like solo players in an MMO to me!        


       


    Groupers already get all the content.  I concede that group content must be different.  You go to the trouble of getting the group together to do the content!  If this seems like work to you then do something else that is more like play!  Don’t complain to us solo players that your preferred play style is a job.  A game should not reward suffering.  There should be no suffering.  It should be fun all the time.  If you enjoy the guild managing and the attendant workload then stop being a martyr about it.  If getting a group together is troublesome don’t do it.  We solo players know grouping can be a pain.  Stop making groups out to be worthy of some sort of Red Badge of Courage.    


     


    Why does a solo player getting great gear offend you, US?  You don’t seem like a loot conscript yourself.  Do you rely on loot conscripts to fill your groups?  Do you fear that they would not help you play if they could solo their way to good gear?  Reducing the available pool of gear seekers is the only downside to a group centric player that I can imagine.  Or is it not enough to get all of the content?  Perhaps you believe “It is not enough that I succeed.  Others must fail”.  This attitude may serve as a balm for those who, like you, choose to endure the hassle of grouping but still need to feel “special” about it.


      


    Swamp Rob, we are on the same page.   “ At endgame, groupers get progressively more difficult content resulting in progressively better rewards.     That's all most soloers want.   Progressive content that rewards their playstyle in the same way. “  Amen, brother!   


     


    And jaxsundane, I have helped plenty of people the very same way in LotRO.  Sometimes I ride around with exactly that intention.   Selfish!?  There was nothing in it for me except the knowledge that I had helped someone else.      

  • UsualSuspectUsualSuspect CardiffPosts: 1,243Member

    Originally posted by SpliceMain 


       


    Groupers already get all the content.  I concede that group content must be different.  You go to the trouble of getting the group together to do the content!  If this seems like work to you then do something else that is more like play!  Don’t complain to us solo players that your preferred play style is a job.  A game should not reward suffering.  There should be no suffering.  It should be fun all the time.  If you enjoy the guild managing and the attendant workload then stop being a martyr about it.  If getting a group together is troublesome don’t do it.  We solo players know grouping can be a pain.  Stop making groups out to be worthy of some sort of Red Badge of Courage.    

    Hey, who, what now?! Groupers get a tiny piece of content in Modern MMO's, the entire levelling stage can be soloed in just about every MMO developed from WoW onwards. The only bit of grouping we get is at the end game, which is usually maybe a dozen raids repeated until the next expansion comes out. So the soloers get 50+ levels of content, the groupers get a dozen or so encounters. Wow, yeah, I can see how they get all the content.

     


    Originally posted by SpliceMain


    Why does a solo player getting great gear offend you, US?  You don’t seem like a loot conscript yourself.  Do you rely on loot conscripts to fill your groups?  Do you fear that they would not help you play if they could solo their way to good gear?  Reducing the available pool of gear seekers is the only downside to a group centric player that I can imagine.  Or is it not enough to get all of the content?  Perhaps you believe “It is not enough that I succeed.  Others must fail”.  This attitude may serve as a balm for those who, like you, choose to endure the hassle of grouping but still need to feel “special” about it.   

    It doesn't offend me that solo players might get the same or equivalent equipment that raiders can get. However, I do think the game as a whole would suffer for it. The gear is basically a carrot on a stick - no, it's not the best design, but it makes sense. A Dragon, for example, would have had many great Knights with powerful equipment trying to kill it, and the more it's fought and won, the bigger the treasure horde it sleeps on. Thus when you kill the dragon, you get a great piece of loot.

    As I was saying, gear is a carrot on a stick, it's there to entice people forward. Why take the time and effort to gather 20+ people to battle a Dragon when you can pop over to your favorite crafter and get better? People need incentives. I mean, soloers have the same thing, they level up through the game then hit the level cap, don't want to raid, so quit or restart with a new toon. Why? Because they've run out of incentives to continue. Raids are a way of challenging multiple people while at the same time allowing them to better their characters through more powerful equipment. You'll find that most raids only have a limited number of drops, never enough to cover the total number of players that attended. Why? Because then you have the incentive of trying again next time.

    Like I said, it's not the best design, but it works. It keeps people playing and it keeps people interested because they want to get that awesome looking sword with flames all over it, or whatever else it might be. Now turn that into a solo experience and what do you have? A few hours of content at best. If a soloer can go along, beat the top content alone, then get the best equipment from it (or from any other channel), then again they've quickly run out of incentives and quit or restart. All you've done is add a few more hours of content after the levelling game is over. Boost them up to the level of raids and you've got a few hours of content that can last for weeks or even months before you get what you need from them.

    I've run into this sort of problem with a game in the past, Lord of the Rings Online. I was loving that game but eventually I ran out of content. There were no more quests for me to complete and the raids offered nothing I needed, so there was no incentive to keep playing. I could pay monthly to log in, chat to some guildies and maybe help a few people with quests, but why would I want to pay to do that? Restarting wasn't an option due to the way the game was built - follow the quest line up to the end. I'd already done it twice.

    This is the reason MMO's are designed the way they are, with groups, raids and 'carrot on a stick' content. It's to keep people playing. If that content was entirely soloable then it would come to an end very quickly, there's only so much content that can be developed before you run out of things to do. At that point it would basically be a single player game in a multiplayer environment, you would play through it, get the best stuff, beat the boss, then the credits would roll.

  • SpliceMainSpliceMain Baltimore, MDPosts: 14Member

    Yes indeed, players who like to group can do all of the instances in a game like WoW.  They occur throughout the leveling process, not just at end game.  There are many instances.  All content all the time.  That’s what a raider gets to do and I’m cool with it.     


     


    “Why take the time and effort to gather 20+ people to battle a Dragon when you can pop over to your favorite crafter and get better?”  How about, because it’s fun to take down the Dragon!  You could get a special moniker for killing him.  There could be a world announcement.  And you would know that players like me will never kill him or maybe even see him!  That surely has some appeal, right?  Still not special enough?   OK, your big sword award could glow a different color than mine.  I might need to kill a hundred lesser dragons by myself over several months to get a similar sword but it would appear mundane compared to your mighty Big Cahuna Dragon sword!  Sounds fair to me.    


      


    Why should loot be the primary incentive?  That paradigm is rotten.  You say it’s not the best design but that it works.  Not for me it doesn’t!  Loot has not and never will entice me to raid like a second job.  Or run instances with knuckleheads.  The content should be incentive enough.  Otherwise, aren’t you saying that grouping relies on loot to work?  If it isn’t enough fun then it needs amending.  I agree that end game raiding will extent the playtime of raiders.   PvP extends the playing time of PvPers.  Neither extends the playing time for solo players though. Daily quests can I guess for a while.  But even then the rewards are never so good as end game raiding will yield.  Sooner or later we all reach the end and must begin an alt or quit.  This is true whether solo players can get the best loot or not.  I played for 3 years leveling alts.  Where was my incentive?  It was never loot!  It wasn’t even crafting because the best mats and plans were, you guessed it, in an instance somewhere!  Getting 5 toons to 70 took way more than just a few hours.  I played because I enjoyed the content.  It was a different game playing new classes.   


     


    You want a prize for killing the big dragon in a raid?  You’re right, there should be one.  A title or some such thing.  And a big sword too.  All kinds of unique looking loot.  I got no problem with any of that.


     


    I should be able to get comparable gear, however.  Different but similar.  Not weaker.  Less prestigious, perhaps.  Equally useful.  If that means that fewer folks will raid, so be it.  This is a game.  In the end, guilds and groups would be stronger without the loot conscripts sulking along just hoping for a rare drop.


     


    For the record, I played LotRO for 8 months before hanging it up.  Like you, US, I ran out of content.  That was OK though.  When enough new content gets introduced I’ll go back for a while.  I never felt like a second class citizen gear-wise, either.       

  • UsualSuspectUsualSuspect CardiffPosts: 1,243Member

    Originally posted by SpliceMain 


    Why should loot be the primary incentive?  That paradigm is rotten.  You say it’s not the best design but that it works.  Not for me it doesn’t!  Loot has not and never will entice me to raid like a second job.  Or run instances with knuckleheads.  The content should be incentive enough.  Otherwise, aren’t you saying that grouping relies on loot to work?  If it isn’t enough fun then it needs amending.  I agree that end game raiding will extent the playtime of raiders.   PvP extends the playing time of PvPers.  Neither extends the playing time for solo players though. Daily quests can I guess for a while.  But even then the rewards are never so good as end game raiding will yield.  Sooner or later we all reach the end and must begin an alt or quit.  This is true whether solo players can get the best loot or not.  I played for 3 years leveling alts.  Where was my incentive?  It was never loot!  It wasn’t even crafting because the best mats and plans were, you guessed it, in an instance somewhere!  Getting 5 toons to 70 took way more than just a few hours.  I played because I enjoyed the content.  It was a different game playing new classes.

    I agree with you, it isn't the best design, but that's the way MMO's have been designed and will likely be that way for a while to come. The thing is, people like to be awarded for their efforts, that's the way it is in life and it's mirrored in MMO's - take the time and effort to battle through a two hour dungeon full of trash mobs then spend a week working out how to kill a boss mob to be awarded a random drop for one of your 20-30 raid team. Wouldn't you like to be awarded something cool for doing that? Why should one person be awarded a similar reward for doing something alone and, very likely, without a sliver of the risk involved?

    That's how it's viewed and I tend to agree that bigger dangers should reap bigger rewards. If not loot then what? At the end of the day, the reward should put them above someone who has never done the encounter or the risk just wouldn't have been worth it.

    I'm like you, however, that the content is incentive enough. I used to play a Monk in EverQuest and before later expansions came along, Monk loot was an incredibly rare thing. But I didn't care as I was having a blast. I was usually the puller for the raid, going out, annoying mobs that would likely splat me in two or three hits, and running them back to the raid where everyone would pounce on them. I even ended up pulling a place called Trakanons Cave, which was notoriously difficult, and wrote a strat for it on a Monk website.

    For others though, there will always be an incentive to do things for rewards. That's just how people are, especially more recently where people are becoming more greedy and selfish. Content alone just isn't enough, and for some people never has been. Grouping doesn't rely on loot to work though, what it does rely on is the game making it a more viable option.

    If there isn't that carrot-on-a-stick then people will always go the path of least resistance to get where they need to be. If grouping isn't part of the core design of a game and soloing is the easier option then people will solo. I've done it myself, I love grouping but in most MMO's there really isn't a need to - either that or the way the game is developed just doesn't make grouping easy. LOTRO for example, could be soloed all the way except for a few side quests such as the Great Barrow. If you wanted to group up for other things then you had to find someone who was on the exact same quest as you, but as quests flew past so quickly that was a task in itself. So rather than bother looking for people for something you didn't need them for anyway, you'd just solo until you got to the Great Barrow, for example, then gather up for that.

    On the flip side, EverQuest made content a lot more difficult so grouping was almost a requirement, with only a few classes being able to solo well enough to bother. This got people together more often, usually you'd see the same people day after day, you'd make friends easily, find out who the good and bad players were, travel around together, so grouping just became a natural thing. It wasn't forced, it was just the way things were, and it was fun. I guess that's why to me raiding didn't need loot, it was just a natural progression from grouping with 5 people to grouping with 50.

  • RelapsE28RelapsE28 Freehold, NJPosts: 13Member

    Group play vs solo play? Well both are great in mmo's so there should be a balance between the two.  If there is to much group play, solo players will have a hard time playing the game and completing the quests/missions.  However, if there is to much solo play, players can't have the thrill of doing quests/missions together.  Therefore, a mmo should have equal amount of solo and group play.

    ?RelapsE?

  • Benj4minBenj4min his coolish cookiePosts: 23Member

    As much as people like to play "solo" I dont see the fun in it.

    Why play an online game if you dont play with other people?

    The first person to anwser that gets a virtual cookie!

    As much as I prefer to play in groups does not mean others shouldnt play on their own. Its up to them at the end of the day I guess.

  • SwampRobSwampRob Halifax, NSPosts: 1,008Member

    Originally posted by Benj4min

    As much as people like to play "solo" I dont see the fun in it.

    Why play an online game if you dont play with other people?

    The first person to anwser that gets a virtual cookie!

    As much as I prefer to play in groups does not mean others shouldnt play on their own. Its up to them at the end of the day I guess.

    People are still asking this question?

    When you play online, are you in a group every moment?

    Single player games and MMOs are very different.     For example, you don't see many SP games with crafting.    You see none with auction houses.     MMOs are larger, and continuous.      Single player games tend to have an ending, where MMOs never really end.    Chatting or trading with others are forms of interaction.    Heck, seeing another player or three run by, even if I don't say a word to them, makes the game feel different, by knowing those are real people and not npcs.

    The m in mMo means multiplayer, as in many players at the same time.   It does not mean grouping.

    One of the problems with the popularity of Wow is that many people now see that as the definition of an MMO.   When Wow was being developed, Blizzard hired longtime EQ players, specifically well-known guild leaders, to come in and help design their game.   Since they were already avid raiders, raiding naturally got the sweetest part of the deal in Wow's loot mechanisms, as well as the most challenging content.

    This does not mean that is the way MMOs should or must be, just one way they can be.    What many soloers on here want is an MMO that gives out that challenging content and sweet rewards to all styles of play, instead of withholding the best of both for just one style.

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