You should try playing GW1 Assassin. Maybe trying it actually will convince you that it can be effective and fun without stealth. Stealth is something that influences a lot of things in gaming world, not only ambushing casters in your favorite PvP scenario.
You said it really nicely. From 5 games you played, only one had "semi-balanced" rogue classes. I guess you are against balance then? No hard feelings but I don't really understand you.
No offence but I think you should try GW1 Assassin first before dissing it off. That is just my humble opinion.
I think I've played just about every game with a stealth character in it, and never really played the stealth character. I however typically play characters with a lot of reflexive survival mechanics and after a while you sort of get into the swing of fighting stealthers. In all the games I have played however I believe the most balanced stealth character I've ever seen is akali from league of legends.
For reference, it was just a smoke bomb type shroud that served as a mediocre aoe snare and stealth for the user of it only.
The pros were as awesome as the cons.
It was usable any time but revealed you for a short time if you attacked.
It was only placed on a small area but was a great stealth.
It had more uses than just turning invisible but was the same skill obviously and still triggered the cooldown.
I imagine gw2 will do something similar to overlook their distaste of boring moves.
People think it's fun to pretend your a monster. Me I spend my life pretending I'm not. - Dexter Morgan
Well I think stealth classes in WAR were pretty well balanced and fun to play. If GW2 has stealth mechanics like these I'll be a happy puppy.
In short, WAR's stealth goes as follows: It is a full stealth but it is on cooldown, 30 sec I believe. As long as you're in stealth you slowly drain your action points (that's a quickly renewable resource that you use for all your actions). So using stealth becomes a balancing act - if you stay too long you won't be able to do anything when you come out. Deciding when and where you'll stealth becomes absolutely crucial and due to the cooldown you have to decide whether you'll use it to attack or save it so you can get away after the "mission" is accomplished. It requires skill to use and definitely is not an "I win" button. In fact, even tho healers and squishies are stealther's natural prey in WAR I haven't ever hear any of them complain.. It just adds one more layer of complexity to PvP and encourages players to work together "a witch elf! no, 2 witch elves! gone stealth! tanks stick to healers!!"
You should try playing GW1 Assassin. Maybe trying it actually will convince you that it can be effective and fun without stealth. Stealth is something that influences a lot of things in gaming world, not only ambushing casters in your favorite PvP scenario.
You said it really nicely. From 5 games you played, only one had "semi-balanced" rogue classes. I guess you are against balance then? No hard feelings but I don't really understand you.
No offence but I think you should try GW1 Assassin first before dissing it off. That is just my humble opinion.
I changed the rules, look at my first post and look at the post before this. I wanted to get an answer first and foremost, I did.
I just dont want to hear bitching and moaning from some butt hurt crybaby that got killed in pvp and never played a typical rogue class. <--I am not directing that sentence at anyone directly as I am responding to the first post.
So bring it on.
And hey maybe your right. Maybe the Assassin in GW1 is great. In Warhammer they were leaning more into a direction where at least stealth wasnt as important because most of the abilities were usable OUT of stealth also.
But for me, so many of the mechanics that usually make up assassin/rogue classes all work together. They are usually glass cannons of melle. They need stuns, they need stealth and they need a way to get back into stealth. WIthout those tools, its hard for me to understand how they can fight for very long.
I know it can be done and I dont know the mechanics of GW1's assassin, but my point is, when someone starts throwing around half assed ideas like, "Well maybe we can just not give them stealth"...and I think yeah that works Corky, and while were at it, maybe cars dont need tires and maybe houses dont need roofs, maybe tank classes dont need heavy armor...
No hard feelings taken, I just didnt explain myself as well as I should have. I was just putting that info up there to put that info up. I had no agenda. I could of said all those rogue classes were balanced if I wanted to just make my point for the sake of making my point.
I could of analyzed any class up there across any mmo, and there would be unbalance and balance even through the life of the mmo. WoW for instance, jeesh, not playing an OP class, well wait for next patch.
If you have ever played a Stealthing class, you know, that there is no way any game mechanic other than stealth can replace knowing that your invisible and the person you see, does not see you.
Well I think stealth classes in WAR were pretty well balanced and fun to play. If GW2 has stealth mechanics like these I'll be a happy puppy.
In short, WAR's stealth goes as follows: It is a full stealth but it is on cooldown, 30 sec I believe. As long as you're in stealth you slowly drain your action points (that's a quickly renewable resource that you use for all your actions). So using stealth becomes a balancing act - if you stay too long you won't be able to do anything when you come out. Deciding when and where you'll stealth becomes absolutely crucial and due to the cooldown you have to decide whether you'll use it to attack or save it so you can get away after the "mission" is accomplished. It requires skill to use and definitely is not an "I win" button. In fact, even tho healers and squishies are stealther's natural prey in WAR I haven't ever hear any of them complain.. It just adds one more layer of complexity to PvP and encourages players to work together "a witch elf! no, 2 witch elves! gone stealth! tanks stick to healers!!"
That I didnt like..the limited stealth. Why should I be penalized for having a mechanic that makes my class what it is. Maybe everyone should get penalized for the things they can do well too? No? Why not?
In general the scenario you described happens in WoW also. With limited movement speed...no one is going to walk around stealth for 2 mins to try and kill one person. You see a rogue ride up on his mount from a distance and pop into stealth. Its no surprise what is going to come next. You just dont know when exactly.
I always preferred the concept of players having to close the range through actual stealth rather than invisibility (aka, what most MMO players know as "stealth") in MMOs: staying out of view and using abilities to keep it that way until the last minute. Shadow-stepping (the assassins in GW1 didn't have invisibility, rather, quick teleports from one spot to another) is much better in my opinion as a mechanism for closing a gap. Invisibility feels too gimmicky and every stealth character must focus on it if it's in the game, whereas in GW1, players didn't have a dependency: they could get speed boosting abilities if they needed other ways to close the gap, or no shadow-steps or speed abilities at all to make room for more attacks or maybe an escape mechanism to sacrifice as much mobility as other players.
I can't say whether or not I'd be more liking if it was in or not, but I'd think its likely that, unlike the first, it is in GW2, what with the mass difference in how the environments and the worlds will work (much more open as comparative to very closed instances in the original).
If you have ever played a Stealthing class, you know, that there is no way any game mechanic other than stealth can replace knowing that your invisible and the person you see, does not see you.
I had Rogue (and Shaman who was my main) in WoW lvl 60. Started when WoW launched and quit when TBC came out. Done alot of PVP with it, also done 40 man dungeons with it (MC, BWL, AQ, Naxx). I have been playing WAR for couple of months with lvl 40 Witch Hunter (and Swordmaster). Also, I have been playing Age of Conan where everyone has 'stealth'.
Been playing Guild Wars with Assassin (though Mesmer and later Paragon were my mains) for some time. So I pretty much know what I am talking about. I am a bit more against stealth than I am for it. But, for me, it wouldnt be a dealbreaker if it is in the game. What I fail to understand is you, who thinks there is no other way of implementing Assassin-type class without stealth. That is where I think you are completely wrong. And I hope GW2 proves you that.
If you have ever played a Stealthing class, you know, that there is no way any game mechanic other than stealth can replace knowing that your invisible and the person you see, does not see you.
I had Rogue (and Shaman who was my main) in WoW lvl 60. Started when WoW launched and quit when TBC came out. Done alot of PVP with it, also done 40 man dungeons with it (MC, BWL, AQ, Naxx). I have been playing WAR for couple of months with lvl 40 Witch Hunter (and Swordmaster). Also, I have been playing Age of Conan where everyone has 'stealth'.
Been playing Guild Wars with Assassin (though Mesmer and later Paragon were my mains) for some time. So I pretty much know what I am talking about. I am a bit more against stealth than I am for it. But, for me, it wouldnt be a dealbreaker if it is in the game. What I fail to understand is you, who thinks there is no other way of implementing Assassin-type class without stealth. That is where I think you are completely wrong. And I hope GW2 proves you that.
I am not dead set in my opinions, that they will never change.
So for me, if they dont have stealth in game, will that be 100 percent gamebreaking for me?
Well, considering the quality of the company, the resourcefullness, and what we have been shown so far about GW2, if anyone could pull it off and make a Rogue class without stealth a blast to play, it would be ANET.
So either or, and I'll be happy.
Either stealth is in and I'm happy.
Or the assassin class is so fun to play I completely forget about stealth. Either way is good for me.
would rather have Anet put shadowstep and not stealth
shadowstep is a lot better IMO and i think it plays much more fluid and fast paced then normal stealth
Sure then why your at it,
-we can do away with the energy mechanic
-give stealthers tank armor
-every move has no positional requirement
-no cooldowns
and hey if we have done all that, we can just give them another name other than assassin.
Because if if you take stealth away from a class like a Rogue that typically has stealth, it is no longer a rogue.
In response to Lokie, I see you around, but I dont know what your take on PvP is? Thats where I really feel the strongest about it.
For pve, I like it in the game I currently play because I dont have any mechanics that heal me, so if I am farming for something or doing alot of fighting, I rely on avoiding damage via getting the opener, stuns and restealthing on another mob.
To say "Its not needed"... well, nothing is needed. The game isnt needed, dps isnt needed, more than one class..hmm is it needed?
I am using a bit of hyperbole but you get the point. The devs could design a world where anything works. That doesnt mean they should.
what the hell are you talking about and how does it have anything to do with my want for the shadowstep mechanic ?
your getting too worked up over stealth and seems to me like you have no idea what shadowstep is
but thats just my take on a rant from a stealth fanboi
OP really needs to play GW1. Assassin is a great class and has very unique playstyle and abilities. And it doesn't need [invisibility]
There are many factors that go into a traditional Rogue style character, removing the least plausible one does not constitute "throwing away everything"
The trouble with stealth is that the class has to be gimped out of stealth otherwise it's overpowered.
Typical wow player obsessed with the non-existent "slippery slope". -_-
would rather have Anet put shadowstep and not stealth
shadowstep is a lot better IMO and i think it plays much more fluid and fast paced then normal stealth
Sure then why your at it,
-we can do away with the energy mechanic
-give stealthers tank armor
-every move has no positional requirement
-no cooldowns
and hey if we have done all that, we can just give them another name other than assassin.
Because if if you take stealth away from a class like a Rogue that typically has stealth, it is no longer a rogue.
In response to Lokie, I see you around, but I dont know what your take on PvP is? Thats where I really feel the strongest about it.
For pve, I like it in the game I currently play because I dont have any mechanics that heal me, so if I am farming for something or doing alot of fighting, I rely on avoiding damage via getting the opener, stuns and restealthing on another mob.
To say "Its not needed"... well, nothing is needed. The game isnt needed, dps isnt needed, more than one class..hmm is it needed?
I am using a bit of hyperbole but you get the point. The devs could design a world where anything works. That doesnt mean they should.
what the hell are you talking about and how does it have anything to do with my want for the shadowstep mechanic ?
your getting too worked up over stealth and seems to me like you have no idea what shadowstep is
but thats just my take on a rant from a stealth fanboi
I am not mad or worked up. You said Shadowstep plays better than stealth. The shadowstep I know of, I wouldnt trade for stealth and would completely ruin the class.
At the time I was replying, I thought you were referring to a WoW rogue ability actually called ShadowStep. And all it does is port you TO a person, there is no port back. It is rarely a defensive move and is for the most part very broke.
Comments
OP, you know you are breaking your own rules?
You should try playing GW1 Assassin. Maybe trying it actually will convince you that it can be effective and fun without stealth. Stealth is something that influences a lot of things in gaming world, not only ambushing casters in your favorite PvP scenario.
You said it really nicely. From 5 games you played, only one had "semi-balanced" rogue classes. I guess you are against balance then? No hard feelings but I don't really understand you.
No offence but I think you should try GW1 Assassin first before dissing it off. That is just my humble opinion.
www.gamersbook.com - Community for Gamers.
For reference, it was just a smoke bomb type shroud that served as a mediocre aoe snare and stealth for the user of it only.
The pros were as awesome as the cons.
It was usable any time but revealed you for a short time if you attacked.
It was only placed on a small area but was a great stealth.
It had more uses than just turning invisible but was the same skill obviously and still triggered the cooldown.
I imagine gw2 will do something similar to overlook their distaste of boring moves.
People think it's fun to pretend your a monster. Me I spend my life pretending I'm not. - Dexter Morgan
Well I think stealth classes in WAR were pretty well balanced and fun to play. If GW2 has stealth mechanics like these I'll be a happy puppy.
In short, WAR's stealth goes as follows: It is a full stealth but it is on cooldown, 30 sec I believe. As long as you're in stealth you slowly drain your action points (that's a quickly renewable resource that you use for all your actions). So using stealth becomes a balancing act - if you stay too long you won't be able to do anything when you come out. Deciding when and where you'll stealth becomes absolutely crucial and due to the cooldown you have to decide whether you'll use it to attack or save it so you can get away after the "mission" is accomplished. It requires skill to use and definitely is not an "I win" button. In fact, even tho healers and squishies are stealther's natural prey in WAR I haven't ever hear any of them complain.. It just adds one more layer of complexity to PvP and encourages players to work together "a witch elf! no, 2 witch elves! gone stealth! tanks stick to healers!!"
I changed the rules, look at my first post and look at the post before this. I wanted to get an answer first and foremost, I did.
I just dont want to hear bitching and moaning from some butt hurt crybaby that got killed in pvp and never played a typical rogue class. <--I am not directing that sentence at anyone directly as I am responding to the first post.
So bring it on.
And hey maybe your right. Maybe the Assassin in GW1 is great. In Warhammer they were leaning more into a direction where at least stealth wasnt as important because most of the abilities were usable OUT of stealth also.
But for me, so many of the mechanics that usually make up assassin/rogue classes all work together. They are usually glass cannons of melle. They need stuns, they need stealth and they need a way to get back into stealth. WIthout those tools, its hard for me to understand how they can fight for very long.
I know it can be done and I dont know the mechanics of GW1's assassin, but my point is, when someone starts throwing around half assed ideas like, "Well maybe we can just not give them stealth"...and I think yeah that works Corky, and while were at it, maybe cars dont need tires and maybe houses dont need roofs, maybe tank classes dont need heavy armor...
No hard feelings taken, I just didnt explain myself as well as I should have. I was just putting that info up there to put that info up. I had no agenda. I could of said all those rogue classes were balanced if I wanted to just make my point for the sake of making my point.
I could of analyzed any class up there across any mmo, and there would be unbalance and balance even through the life of the mmo. WoW for instance, jeesh, not playing an OP class, well wait for next patch.
If you have ever played a Stealthing class, you know, that there is no way any game mechanic other than stealth can replace knowing that your invisible and the person you see, does not see you.
That I didnt like..the limited stealth. Why should I be penalized for having a mechanic that makes my class what it is. Maybe everyone should get penalized for the things they can do well too? No? Why not?
In general the scenario you described happens in WoW also. With limited movement speed...no one is going to walk around stealth for 2 mins to try and kill one person. You see a rogue ride up on his mount from a distance and pop into stealth. Its no surprise what is going to come next. You just dont know when exactly.
I hope there is a stealth class.They are fun to play and fun to beat as well
I always preferred the concept of players having to close the range through actual stealth rather than invisibility (aka, what most MMO players know as "stealth") in MMOs: staying out of view and using abilities to keep it that way until the last minute. Shadow-stepping (the assassins in GW1 didn't have invisibility, rather, quick teleports from one spot to another) is much better in my opinion as a mechanism for closing a gap. Invisibility feels too gimmicky and every stealth character must focus on it if it's in the game, whereas in GW1, players didn't have a dependency: they could get speed boosting abilities if they needed other ways to close the gap, or no shadow-steps or speed abilities at all to make room for more attacks or maybe an escape mechanism to sacrifice as much mobility as other players.
I can't say whether or not I'd be more liking if it was in or not, but I'd think its likely that, unlike the first, it is in GW2, what with the mass difference in how the environments and the worlds will work (much more open as comparative to very closed instances in the original).
I had Rogue (and Shaman who was my main) in WoW lvl 60. Started when WoW launched and quit when TBC came out. Done alot of PVP with it, also done 40 man dungeons with it (MC, BWL, AQ, Naxx). I have been playing WAR for couple of months with lvl 40 Witch Hunter (and Swordmaster). Also, I have been playing Age of Conan where everyone has 'stealth'.
Been playing Guild Wars with Assassin (though Mesmer and later Paragon were my mains) for some time. So I pretty much know what I am talking about. I am a bit more against stealth than I am for it. But, for me, it wouldnt be a dealbreaker if it is in the game. What I fail to understand is you, who thinks there is no other way of implementing Assassin-type class without stealth. That is where I think you are completely wrong. And I hope GW2 proves you that.
www.gamersbook.com - Community for Gamers.
I am not dead set in my opinions, that they will never change.
So for me, if they dont have stealth in game, will that be 100 percent gamebreaking for me?
Well, considering the quality of the company, the resourcefullness, and what we have been shown so far about GW2, if anyone could pull it off and make a Rogue class without stealth a blast to play, it would be ANET.
So either or, and I'll be happy.
Either stealth is in and I'm happy.
Or the assassin class is so fun to play I completely forget about stealth. Either way is good for me.
what the hell are you talking about and how does it have anything to do with my want for the shadowstep mechanic ?
your getting too worked up over stealth and seems to me like you have no idea what shadowstep is
but thats just my take on a rant from a stealth fanboi
I think the question is better phrased like this:
"Is there a class that let's me turn invisible and gank the player I choose?"
OP really needs to play GW1. Assassin is a great class and has very unique playstyle and abilities. And it doesn't need [invisibility]
There are many factors that go into a traditional Rogue style character, removing the least plausible one does not constitute "throwing away everything"
The trouble with stealth is that the class has to be gimped out of stealth otherwise it's overpowered.
Typical wow player obsessed with the non-existent "slippery slope". -_-
<Welcome to my world>
I am not mad or worked up. You said Shadowstep plays better than stealth. The shadowstep I know of, I wouldnt trade for stealth and would completely ruin the class.
That was until I read about what your talking about which is actually called Shadow Walk http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shadow_step
At the time I was replying, I thought you were referring to a WoW rogue ability actually called ShadowStep. And all it does is port you TO a person, there is no port back. It is rarely a defensive move and is for the most part very broke.