In EvE, the lore was developed and supports the time based skill training. If a similar system could be justified using the WoD rules, then I'd be all for it. Personally, I like the time-based training, but if it turns out it is a square peg in a round hole, I'd prefer they go with a different method that WoD lore supports. As a side note, this opinion is purely based on me not being overly familiar with WoD lore beyond the very basics...
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
You can do that if all your players can RP everything. If they can't the xp and skill system in those games help players who are weak to RPing how they want there characters to be. Like a girl in a wheelchair running a combat heavy werewolf would have an extremely hard time RPing combat. Or a socially awkward nerd guy playing a female socialite. Somethings some people just can't RP, and forcing a player to play what they don't want because they can't be like the character they lovingly chreated is disaterous for those players. Can you really RP combat without the xp system as a filter to allow people to do more than they physically can, but without cheating? If you can grats, you got some honest people. Most people will try to get away with as much as possible and the system makes it easier to keep people in check.
If you want to roleplay a swordmaster, you create a character with sword-abilities and the regarding attributes. If you want to roleplay a crafter, you choose the abilities and attributes for it.... etc.
Roleplaying is not as hard as you might think it is.
Combat for example is about killing your chosen targets and there doesn't need to be any XP for killing other players or NPCs. The only thing of interest is achieving your set goal of killing the chosen targets. Playing a RPG is not about getting rewards, playing a RPG is about social interaction and to have fun spending some time roleplaying a character.
You can do that if all your players can RP everything. If they can't the xp and skill system in those games help players who are weak to RPing how they want there characters to be. Like a girl in a wheelchair running a combat heavy werewolf would have an extremely hard time RPing combat. Or a socially awkward nerd guy playing a female socialite. Somethings some people just can't RP, and forcing a player to play what they don't want because they can't be like the character they lovingly chreated is disaterous for those players. Can you really RP combat without the xp system as a filter to allow people to do more than they physically can, but without cheating? If you can grats, you got some honest people. Most people will try to get away with as much as possible and the system makes it easier to keep people in check.
If you want to roleplay a swordmaster, you create a character with sword-abilities and the regarding attributes. If you want to roleplay a crafter, you choose the abilities and attributes for it.... etc.
Roleplaying is not as hard as you might think it is.
Combat for example is about killing your chosen targets and there doesn't need to be any XP for killing other players or NPCs. The only thing of interest is achieving your set goal of killing the chosen targets.
Playing a RPG is not about getting rewards, playing a RPG is about social interaction and to have fun spending some time roleplaying a character.
I disagree I feel RP is about enacting what your character can do. Xp is an expression of how that character progresses over time. Sure you could do it without the xp system, but the players end up making up for a lack of a system with RPing skill training. Or their characters become static and never changing. How would you as a GM be able to tell players they can't pick a particular lock that the player thinks they should be able to without a difficulty system and skill level to state things in black and white? Especially when the character can already do more than what the player has practical knowledge of. a 19th century combination lock is a bit different than a bank vault combination lock from the 80s for instance. How would you quantify difficulty difference if you aren't playing with skill levels?
I personally and a highly technical person and without the rules my combat would take forever as I nit pick everything. I'm a martial arts guy what can I say. I research all the time. I'm also terrible actor. I can be in the mindset of a particular character, but I can't act it to save my life. I can show people how a 100 lb girl can throw a 200 lb guy IRL, but how can I RP combat against someone else who's terrible at it, but there character is great at it? While trying to not look like an ass or know-it-all? In the WoD system I find quite a bit of comfort in that I can rely on the sytem to limit what I know conpared to what's allowed in game in respect to dots in skill.
On the other end of the spectrum, The average joe isn't going to have things like occult knowledge, Larceny of any degree, computer skills, or military grade firearms training. To me as a guy who knows or knows the general theory about a lot of things, I can see how daunting it would be for someone to try and act a skill that they don't even know the first thing about.
Picking handcuffs would seem impossible to the average person, but I can do it, behind my back and blindfolded no less.
How would you propose to translate RP in an MMO where if there isn't a progression system how do people get better at a skill such as the example above? In such a way to keep power gamers from abusing the system to do anything they want.
Doing things face to face is a bit different than doing things on line as people done live by societal rules on the net.
You can do that if all your players can RP everything. If they can't the xp and skill system in those games help players who are weak to RPing how they want there characters to be. Like a girl in a wheelchair running a combat heavy werewolf would have an extremely hard time RPing combat. Or a socially awkward nerd guy playing a female socialite. Somethings some people just can't RP, and forcing a player to play what they don't want because they can't be like the character they lovingly chreated is disaterous for those players. Can you really RP combat without the xp system as a filter to allow people to do more than they physically can, but without cheating? If you can grats, you got some honest people. Most people will try to get away with as much as possible and the system makes it easier to keep people in check.
If you want to roleplay a swordmaster, you create a character with sword-abilities and the regarding attributes. If you want to roleplay a crafter, you choose the abilities and attributes for it.... etc.
Roleplaying is not as hard as you might think it is.
Combat for example is about killing your chosen targets and there doesn't need to be any XP for killing other players or NPCs. The only thing of interest is achieving your set goal of killing the chosen targets.
Playing a RPG is not about getting rewards, playing a RPG is about social interaction and to have fun spending some time roleplaying a character.
Problem is, that works in tabletop RPGs and only if you have a really dedicated group of roleplayers who are into the hobby for the sake of experience and well spent time not for loot whoring and min-maxing. Unfortunately, the later make the majority of MMO players and even if you go RP heavy you gotta offer the players some kind of progressive advancement to make them feel they're accomplishing something tangible in the game.
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
I love EVE's skill training system through-and-through. Forcing friends, or guilds, to schedule every little thing they do so that they all remain able to play with each other is one of my primary problems with MMOs. The amount of time you sacrifice from your life to an MMORPG should absolutely have to do with how much your character accomplishes and not how competent your character is. I love EVE for this. Dearly. It's better for the players' lives and the developers' bank accounts.
However, I can't see time-based skill training making sense in WoD. You're not exactly plugged into the Matrix—you're not the pseudo-infomorph you are in EVE, where the time spent training is a matter of synaptic plasticity.
I can, though, imagine things that could occur on behalf of the player, advancement-wise or otherwise, whilst the player is offline, thanks to our favorite friends/proxies/servants/slaves, the ghouls:
You are logging off. Do you have a task for your ghoul(s)?
Clean this place up.
Pick up the drycleaning.
Here's $___; buy yourselves something nice.
Buy ________ for me if the price drops below $___.
Hunt down that good-for-nothing _____ and teach them a lesson.
Have breakfast ready for me.
Favorites: EQ, EVE | Playing: None. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CU, Pantheon
The power you get from your blood (Attribute and discipline) would be based on time and you would gain XP to level your skill. There you get better the more you play, but no power gamer can become too powerfull to fast.
This is a holy grail for role-players which will be easy to mess up. I think a system of powers like CoH with a skill based system would work best. I am not a fan of people getting XP for doing nothing. What is that all about anyway, are we trying to prepare young gamers for a life on the dole?
There would be no ‘healer’ but the concept of tank and dps would remain, if you pick the right powers and skills.
The many problems, which will result from marketing wanting the MMO to conform to WoW and generic MMO concepts:
Powers will be flashy with special effects.
There will be a healer.
It will be bright and cheerful looking.
They will spend programming time which could have been used for content on an app so you can see where your mates are on your smart phone…when you are not playing the ****ing game!
It will have levels.
You will be able to level to Antediluvian in one month.
Because console players will be in the game the control system will be dumbed down.
The names of anything considered to difficult to pronounce will get changed to a simpler name.
You will be able to solo to end game and then be puzzled when you are crap at grouping for Draining the Elder’s raids.
OK I was a little facetious there, but only a little!
Hey just thinking, imagine VtR mixed with Tales of the Desert, with only one becoming the Prince! Now that would be a game and a half.
The power you get from your blood (Attribute and discipline) would be based on time and you would gain XP to level your skill. There you get better the more you play, but no power gamer can become too powerfull to fast.
Unless we're going to be playing over hundreds to thousands of years of in-game time, I can't see that making sense. Even in Requiem, blood potency rises by one per 50 years. In Masquerade, the closest equivalent is generation, and it is static.
Although, I suppose, if we assume that we're looking at oWoD post-Gehenna, or some scenario in which Gehenna never occurred, CCP may opt to make something about this new generation special in that they grow in power very rapidly, i.e. in matters of days rather than decades. I'm not sure I'd be thrilled with that, however.
Unless, that is, using your attributes/disciplines example, they move attributes and disciplines from a 5-point system to at least a 100-point system, so vampires are not eating the Antediluvians in a matter of months, but they still have the smooth yellow brick road of magical rewards that MMOers crave. Yet that entails 100 powers for each discipline. Fuck.
I love passive time-based advancement, but I can't find a way to fit it in, here.
Favorites: EQ, EVE | Playing: None. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CU, Pantheon
Originally posted by Daitengu Originally posted by jrs77
Originally posted by Daitengu You can do that if all your players can RP everything. If they can't the xp and skill system in those games help players who are weak to RPing how they want there characters to be. Like a girl in a wheelchair running a combat heavy werewolf would have an extremely hard time RPing combat. Or a socially awkward nerd guy playing a female socialite. Somethings some people just can't RP, and forcing a player to play what they don't want because they can't be like the character they lovingly chreated is disaterous for those players. Can you really RP combat without the xp system as a filter to allow people to do more than they physically can, but without cheating? If you can grats, you got some honest people. Most people will try to get away with as much as possible and the system makes it easier to keep people in check.
If you want to roleplay a swordmaster, you create a character with sword-abilities and the regarding attributes. If you want to roleplay a crafter, you choose the abilities and attributes for it.... etc. Roleplaying is not as hard as you might think it is. Combat for example is about killing your chosen targets and there doesn't need to be any XP for killing other players or NPCs. The only thing of interest is achieving your set goal of killing the chosen targets. Playing a RPG is not about getting rewards, playing a RPG is about social interaction and to have fun spending some time roleplaying a character.
I disagree I feel RP is about enacting what your character can do. Xp is an expression of how that character progresses over time. Sure you could do it without the xp system, but the players end up making up for a lack of a system with RPing skill training. Or their characters become static and never changing. How would you as a GM be able to tell players they can't pick a particular lock that the player thinks they should be able to without a difficulty system and skill level to state things in black and white? Especially when the character can already do more than what the player has practical knowledge of. a 19th century combination lock is a bit different than a bank vault combination lock from the 80s for instance. How would you quantify difficulty difference if you aren't playing with skill levels? I personally and a highly technical person and without the rules my combat would take forever as I nit pick everything. I'm a martial arts guy what can I say. I research all the time. I'm also terrible actor. I can be in the mindset of a particular character, but I can't act it to save my life. I can show people how a 100 lb girl can throw a 200 lb guy IRL, but how can I RP combat against someone else who's terrible at it, but there character is great at it? While trying to not look like an ass or know-it-all? In the WoD system I find quite a bit of comfort in that I can rely on the sytem to limit what I know conpared to what's allowed in game in respect to dots in skill. On the other end of the spectrum, The average joe isn't going to have things like occult knowledge, Larceny of any degree, computer skills, or military grade firearms training. To me as a guy who knows or knows the general theory about a lot of things, I can see how daunting it would be for someone to try and act a skill that they don't even know the first thing about.
Picking handcuffs would seem impossible to the average person, but I can do it, behind my back and blindfolded no less.
How would you propose to translate RP in an MMO where if there isn't a progression system how do people get better at a skill such as the example above? In such a way to keep power gamers from abusing the system to do anything they want.
Doing things face to face is a bit different than doing things on line as people done live by societal rules on the net.
Why has there to be skills/talents for everything? Why not make the stuff like lockpicking for example dependant on your basic attributes (strength, intelligence, etc...). Why not enable every player to do everything from the go and only have a few special-skills to choose from ontop of that to make them specialists in a certain area?
Character-progression and the treasurehunt for epics gets old and it's time for more roleplaying and social interaction instead.
Some kind of monetary rewards for quests is all there should be regarding character-progression, so that people can buy some items for their characters.
The main-aspect of the game shouldn't be about character-progression, but about player-interaction, clan/guild-warfare, social engineering, crafting and playerdriven economy.
With skills and levels you min/max your toons, and after a certain point the whole character-progression get's uninteresting. In EvE you train the skills until you can fly the desired ship-classes and then you learn skills that you'll never use. My 5 year old character in EvE trains unneeded skills for some 2 years now actually.
In every system there'll be a point, where you max out the skills or levels you wanted for your playstyle and after that point it's still all about roleplaying. So why not do away with the character-progression at all to begin with and start playing the game instantly like you want to play it?
There's too many spoiled people outthere, who got used to levels and skill-training over the years to feel like they've actually achieved something... pff... Roleplaying is the only thing that keeps EvE Online running for the last 5 years and not the skill-trainings... and yes, alliance-warfare, politics, and economy is all considered roleplaying in my books as all these activities have nothing to do with character-progression.
On another note.... the passive skill-training in EvE Online is one aspect, why alot of people hate EvE Online, becuase they need to spend month of training and subscriptions first, before they can take part in the interesting parts of the game.
I'd be very much with you, jrs77, for any new IP, but CCP is picking up an existing setting and system, here. As nice as it would be, I seriously don't expect it to happen.
Originally posted by jrs77
Why has there to be skills/talents for everything? Why not make the stuff like lockpicking for example dependant on your basic attributes (strength, intelligence, etc...).
Why not enable every player to do everything from the go and only have a few special-skills to choose from ontop of that to make them specialists in a certain area?
I have an IQ of 139 and very nimble fingers, but I'm pretty sure that I couldn't pick a lock, and I know people with IQs of <120 who can do things with their brains that baffle me. Attributes and skills are typically separate in RPGs partly because they very much are separate in reality.
Astrophysicists and evolutionary biologists both need to be very intelligent, yet the application of that intelligence is a world apart, and the biologist can't just stand in for the astrophysicist on his sick days. Likewise for pianists and guitarists, or football players and hockey players.
Originally posted by jrs77
The main-aspect of the game shouldn't be about character-progression, but about player-interaction, clan/guild-warfare, social engineering, crafting and playerdriven economy.
Absolutely, and the most direct way to achieve that might be as you suggest. Yet then again, White Wolf's Vampire RPGs achieve that even with experience-based rewards, and EVE achieves it even with it's time-based skill training.
Moreover, CCP has continued to say that this MMO is a social and political game—however they plan to achieve that in this instance, it is their stated intention, and it is the nature of the White Wolf system.
Favorites: EQ, EVE | Playing: None. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CU, Pantheon
Voted no. I want a skill based system, yes, but not one dependent upon the passage of real time. I'd like to have more control over how fast I progress. If they do utilize it, though, it won't bother me that much as I'll be in from the start on this game.
I 100% do not want a level based themepark system. Thankfully, since it's CCP, I'm not too worried about them doing a themepark game.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Lot of interesting theories about what this simulation will be like and when I say a simulation I have a strong feeling that this upcoming title will be. Never played much PnP RPG games just the old Star Trek back when I was 7-10 , but I voted yes time based skilled based would be the way to go if the lore fits with it. I myself like the system EVE uses for progression, noone is uber powerful noone is uber weak its all about specialization and CCP in regards to EVE have did a great job over the years finding that balance and goes to show that you don't need levels to be successful.
Some of the posters in this OP seem to be very passionate about this project and the more they describe it the more im intrigued. It really seems like it would put the RPG back into the MMO scheme without the developer scripting everything for you and holding your hand like TOR will end up doing telling your story for you instead of it being the other way around.
Time-based would work with the lore. However, that model is the reason I never got into EVE. I refuse to play a game where my stats were based on how long I was subscribed, not how much or how well I actually played.
I would definitely prefer a skill-based system, ala UO. I could even settle for a mix, where time controls your stats (Strength, Dexterity, etc), while active use of your skills improves your talents (shoot a lot of guns, your firearms goes up).
If it basically comes down to EVE-style versus not, I choose the not. I don't care what the 'not' is, but I hate EVE style with a passion. So, I voted no.
Originally posted by geldonyetich
Wow, I knew you guys were pretty desparate to slam the game, but hacking the web page of a major game site so a user review masquarades as an official one? Pretty impressive.
[Edit: no, after seeing there's an actual video associated with it, I guess not, despite the wierd way GameSpot distributes its content making it looks like the reviewer didn't even write this.]
i don't get it why people say that in eve players make the rules... that's completely wrong, the developers make the rules, players are forced to comply by them that's it.
I mean you have an area with one rule "kill/die as much as you want" for what ever reason you want, you can kill some random guy and say its because he was was of a different color thus is a racist war... it doesn't matter because in the end your just making an excuse to kill them and that is not you making the rules.
Hell that isn't even a new concept, any game not based in factions(because there is another rule that say "you cant attack your own faction") has a similar system.
Get over it, players don't make rules in the actual game like some people are claiming, the best you can get is to make theoretical rules inside your guild where the only penalty is being kicked, hey this is a perfect example of why players cant be making the rules, imagine if you could do anything you wanted like forcing to players to pay for doing something against the rules like "paying a fine" it would be exploited, happens in real life and would happen in the game.
Rules will always be made by the developers in order to be a fair virtual world, players obey them and make excuses for their actions within their set of rules.
Politics imo is the act of achieving a peaceful solution to a problem instead of using force, games are ultimately about war and fighting each other wise it would be just a social-networking game dull, boring and it wouldn't be appealing to players.
In the end people are talking about the core of game design and are hardly thinking about the whole picture.
Lot of interesting theories about what this simulation will be like and when I say a simulation I have a strong feeling that this upcoming title will be. Never played much PnP RPG games just the old Star Trek back when I was 7-10 , but I voted yes time based skilled based would be the way to go if the lore fits with it. I myself like the system EVE uses for progression, noone is uber powerful noone is uber weak its all about specialization and CCP in regards to EVE have did a great job over the years finding that balance and goes to show that you don't need levels to be successful.
Some of the posters in this OP seem to be very passionate about this project and the more they describe it the more im intrigued. It really seems like it would put the RPG back into the MMO scheme without the developer scripting everything for you and holding your hand like TOR will end up doing telling your story for you instead of it being the other way around.
It's good that you're getting really interested but don't believe for one minute the remarks that Vampire: The masquerade doesn't have a progression system. Or Shadowrun for that matter. Both games do and increasing your character's abilities in both is part of the process.
That said, both games tend to be more storytelling type RPGs. They reward ROLEplay as much or more than ROLLplay. Depending on your Gamemaster, of course. Masquerade is heavy on social interaction and politics. There is combat, sure, but it's not a dungeon crawl type game.
SInce they are using Masquerade it is possible that the Sabbat threat will be in full force and that can create some combat. I don't see them incorporatiing PvP in the "because I can" manner that every other PvP plus game does. FIghting of that nature endangers the Masquerade. Not to mention you have to be very careful about killing another Vampire. And I don't mean diablorie, either. Every city has a Prince and all kindred in that city are his subjects. Killing one of their subjects could be a quick way to have an Archon on your heels. And Archons have the Prince's permission to end you.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Even Shadowrun had advancement, so I find that line of discourse interesting even as it is incorrect. Everything is about advancement in some fashion or another, whether taking into account role-playing or not. To suggest that RPGs are solely about social interaction is a farce. They offer a means of being social, as groups come together to accomplish something - advancement - furthering along the story - etc.
As for the poll, I voted no. Passive training makes sense in the world of EVE where it is possible to inject skillbooks into cybernetic beings. There is nothing in WoD to establish this sort of thing. The closest you would get would be some form of mechanic where points would be awarded to advance the character during some period of time - allowing the player to utilize them as they believe their character may have spent their time.
So in a sense, that would be passive - but not in the way the skill training works in EVE.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
It makes sense in EVE for the computer to "train" you with skill points. That same system makes no sense for a world in which you are yourself. I think the most likely thing would be that they will have a system much like the roleplaying game that already exists, in which you chose to put points into the things you value, and you gain experience by doing things in the game world (of course not just killing tasks, if you have played the game before).
If it does have a system like EVE, it will stray too far from the core of White Wolf's game in that respect, and if it does so in one aspect, what is stopping it from doing that in other aspects?
The closer CCP stays to the game that exists, the better it will be. Fans of the roleplaying game will be happier, and it will work better even for newcomers, as it is a tried and true progression system for a game which already exists. Even translating it into the online world, if you stray too far from the original system, you risk causing problems. I think, actually, how Bloodlines handled things would be a decent way to go (obviously it would have to be deeper to accommodate the sheer time and need for investment in our characters that MMOs need).
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
At the same time, though, we have to be prepared for a probably hearty helping of divergence from the PnP material. Like choosing a setting that got apocalypsed six years ago, for instance. Heh.
Favorites: EQ, EVE | Playing: None. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CU, Pantheon
An in between system would be, in my mind. You get daily experience on things you have accomplished and maintain.
So lets say, you get very little xp for doing things, such as "quests" "killing mobs" whatever. However, you gain like 150xp a day for being an active member in X cult, and 100xp a day for being the Sabbat Defense Captain or some rank that has responsibilities like guard the entrance to the whatever. Now you are rewarded for playing and obtaining relationships, and participating. However, you are not necessarily being rewarded for playing all day. If you cant play for a day or only a few hours a day, you can still get a decent amount of xp just playing the game instead of hitting the field of sorrows to grind mold sprites for a few hours.
I don't know if these is feasible, but it seems like a decent idea in theory.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
I dont' mind if there's a cap on skill. For example in 4 month you can learn all your skill.
I was talking on vent with my friends and they say they won't try Eve, because the veterans are so much ahead, and they have no chance to catch up with the time based skill system.
That was one of the main reason I dont' play Eve too. And the other being I'm not in the the FFA PvP loot thing.
In old school MMO's, you earned your skill through playing.
In recent (F2P) MMO's, you were able to pull out your credit card and buy your skill.
And now, Eve-style gameplay advances you for just sitting on your butt.
Sorry, but I'll be darned if I'll tolerate players advancing for just sitting on their butts. There is a line that can be crossed, you know, and this is it.
You cannot quite sit on your butt in EVE and advance your skills endlessly. You need to break out your credit card, buy some GTC, convert it to PLEX, and sell it - so you can afford the skillbooks...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Eve is not the only game using time based skill training. Funcom have added this for their "alternate advancement" (aa) skills in Age of Conan. The difference is that you can get xp the regular way and by time. if you do a lot of solo missions the ratio is about 1/1 regular xp/time xp. the ratio is higher if you do group stuff and lower if you are a casual.
They also added offline levels. It takes 200 days to get a character from lvl 30 to 80.
In old school MMO's, you earned your skill through playing.
In recent (F2P) MMO's, you were able to pull out your credit card and buy your skill.
And now, Eve-style gameplay advances you for just sitting on your butt.
Sorry, but I'll be darned if I'll tolerate players advancing for just sitting on their butts. There is a line that can be crossed, you know, and this is it.
I would agree with you if the main point of a game is to advance your character. Grinding levels/skill points just get in the way if the game is about social interaction of different kinds.
In old school MMO's, you earned your skill through playing.
In recent (F2P) MMO's, you were able to pull out your credit card and buy your skill.
And now, Eve-style gameplay advances you for just sitting on your butt.
Sorry, but I'll be darned if I'll tolerate players advancing for just sitting on their butts. There is a line that can be crossed, you know, and this is it.
I would agree with you if the main point of a game is to advance your character. Grinding levels/skill points just get in the way if the game is about social interaction of different kinds.
Exactly other mmo,s are about leveling to get at the endgame contend via grinding for SP rather than about having fun [at least to me].
EvE is about forming player groups and trading/fighting other groups. Its also about Crafting goods that actually are in high demand as ALL items are destroyable. Its also about playing the role of Trader and supplying people with needed goods like ammo or modules at a profit.
But above all EvE is a social game. which is why leveling is "almost" automatic so you can actually do what you want rather than grind mobs all day.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
In old school MMO's, you earned your skill through playing.
In recent (F2P) MMO's, you were able to pull out your credit card and buy your skill.
And now, Eve-style gameplay advances you for just sitting on your butt.
Sorry, but I'll be darned if I'll tolerate players advancing for just sitting on their butts. There is a line that can be crossed, you know, and this is it.
That's because in "old school" MMOs, the object of the game is to advance your character. In EVE, the object of the game is to achieve your goals, and skill points are just another tool to do that with. And you dont achieve many goals by "sitting on your butt".
Likewise, I very much doubt that the pen-and-paper WoD players sit around all day preening over their L33t character stats when there are secrets to be found, scandals to spread, alliances to be made, backs to be stabbed and blood to be sucked. It's going to be a game of politics, treachery, player interaction.
Grinding sucks (heh). WoDO is not (so I infer) going to be a PvE based game where you grind mobz to gain levels to do 40-kindred raids on Cainxya's lair to score pH4t epix. This is not a Cryptic game.
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In EvE, the lore was developed and supports the time based skill training. If a similar system could be justified using the WoD rules, then I'd be all for it. Personally, I like the time-based training, but if it turns out it is a square peg in a round hole, I'd prefer they go with a different method that WoD lore supports. As a side note, this opinion is purely based on me not being overly familiar with WoD lore beyond the very basics...
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
If you want to roleplay a swordmaster, you create a character with sword-abilities and the regarding attributes. If you want to roleplay a crafter, you choose the abilities and attributes for it.... etc.
Roleplaying is not as hard as you might think it is.
Combat for example is about killing your chosen targets and there doesn't need to be any XP for killing other players or NPCs. The only thing of interest is achieving your set goal of killing the chosen targets.
Playing a RPG is not about getting rewards, playing a RPG is about social interaction and to have fun spending some time roleplaying a character.
I disagree I feel RP is about enacting what your character can do. Xp is an expression of how that character progresses over time. Sure you could do it without the xp system, but the players end up making up for a lack of a system with RPing skill training. Or their characters become static and never changing. How would you as a GM be able to tell players they can't pick a particular lock that the player thinks they should be able to without a difficulty system and skill level to state things in black and white? Especially when the character can already do more than what the player has practical knowledge of. a 19th century combination lock is a bit different than a bank vault combination lock from the 80s for instance. How would you quantify difficulty difference if you aren't playing with skill levels?
I personally and a highly technical person and without the rules my combat would take forever as I nit pick everything. I'm a martial arts guy what can I say. I research all the time. I'm also terrible actor. I can be in the mindset of a particular character, but I can't act it to save my life. I can show people how a 100 lb girl can throw a 200 lb guy IRL, but how can I RP combat against someone else who's terrible at it, but there character is great at it? While trying to not look like an ass or know-it-all? In the WoD system I find quite a bit of comfort in that I can rely on the sytem to limit what I know conpared to what's allowed in game in respect to dots in skill.
On the other end of the spectrum, The average joe isn't going to have things like occult knowledge, Larceny of any degree, computer skills, or military grade firearms training. To me as a guy who knows or knows the general theory about a lot of things, I can see how daunting it would be for someone to try and act a skill that they don't even know the first thing about.
Picking handcuffs would seem impossible to the average person, but I can do it, behind my back and blindfolded no less.
How would you propose to translate RP in an MMO where if there isn't a progression system how do people get better at a skill such as the example above? In such a way to keep power gamers from abusing the system to do anything they want.
Doing things face to face is a bit different than doing things on line as people done live by societal rules on the net.
Problem is, that works in tabletop RPGs and only if you have a really dedicated group of roleplayers who are into the hobby for the sake of experience and well spent time not for loot whoring and min-maxing. Unfortunately, the later make the majority of MMO players and even if you go RP heavy you gotta offer the players some kind of progressive advancement to make them feel they're accomplishing something tangible in the game.
I love EVE's skill training system through-and-through. Forcing friends, or guilds, to schedule every little thing they do so that they all remain able to play with each other is one of my primary problems with MMOs. The amount of time you sacrifice from your life to an MMORPG should absolutely have to do with how much your character accomplishes and not how competent your character is. I love EVE for this. Dearly. It's better for the players' lives and the developers' bank accounts.
However, I can't see time-based skill training making sense in WoD. You're not exactly plugged into the Matrix—you're not the pseudo-infomorph you are in EVE, where the time spent training is a matter of synaptic plasticity.
I can, though, imagine things that could occur on behalf of the player, advancement-wise or otherwise, whilst the player is offline, thanks to our favorite friends/proxies/servants/slaves, the ghouls:
You are logging off. Do you have a task for your ghoul(s)?
Clean this place up.
Pick up the drycleaning.
Here's $___; buy yourselves something nice.
Buy ________ for me if the price drops below $___.
Hunt down that good-for-nothing _____ and teach them a lesson.
Have breakfast ready for me.
The best would be both.
The power you get from your blood (Attribute and discipline) would be based on time and you would gain XP to level your skill. There you get better the more you play, but no power gamer can become too powerfull to fast.
This is a holy grail for role-players which will be easy to mess up. I think a system of powers like CoH with a skill based system would work best. I am not a fan of people getting XP for doing nothing. What is that all about anyway, are we trying to prepare young gamers for a life on the dole?
There would be no ‘healer’ but the concept of tank and dps would remain, if you pick the right powers and skills.
The many problems, which will result from marketing wanting the MMO to conform to WoW and generic MMO concepts:
Powers will be flashy with special effects.
There will be a healer.
It will be bright and cheerful looking.
They will spend programming time which could have been used for content on an app so you can see where your mates are on your smart phone…when you are not playing the ****ing game!
It will have levels.
You will be able to level to Antediluvian in one month.
Because console players will be in the game the control system will be dumbed down.
The names of anything considered to difficult to pronounce will get changed to a simpler name.
You will be able to solo to end game and then be puzzled when you are crap at grouping for Draining the Elder’s raids.
OK I was a little facetious there, but only a little!
Hey just thinking, imagine VtR mixed with Tales of the Desert, with only one becoming the Prince! Now that would be a game and a half.
Unless we're going to be playing over hundreds to thousands of years of in-game time, I can't see that making sense. Even in Requiem, blood potency rises by one per 50 years. In Masquerade, the closest equivalent is generation, and it is static.
Although, I suppose, if we assume that we're looking at oWoD post-Gehenna, or some scenario in which Gehenna never occurred, CCP may opt to make something about this new generation special in that they grow in power very rapidly, i.e. in matters of days rather than decades. I'm not sure I'd be thrilled with that, however.
Unless, that is, using your attributes/disciplines example, they move attributes and disciplines from a 5-point system to at least a 100-point system, so vampires are not eating the Antediluvians in a matter of months, but they still have the smooth yellow brick road of magical rewards that MMOers crave. Yet that entails 100 powers for each discipline. Fuck.
I love passive time-based advancement, but I can't find a way to fit it in, here.
Roleplaying is not as hard as you might think it is.
Combat for example is about killing your chosen targets and there doesn't need to be any XP for killing other players or NPCs. The only thing of interest is achieving your set goal of killing the chosen targets.
Playing a RPG is not about getting rewards, playing a RPG is about social interaction and to have fun spending some time roleplaying a character.
I disagree I feel RP is about enacting what your character can do. Xp is an expression of how that character progresses over time. Sure you could do it without the xp system, but the players end up making up for a lack of a system with RPing skill training. Or their characters become static and never changing. How would you as a GM be able to tell players they can't pick a particular lock that the player thinks they should be able to without a difficulty system and skill level to state things in black and white? Especially when the character can already do more than what the player has practical knowledge of. a 19th century combination lock is a bit different than a bank vault combination lock from the 80s for instance. How would you quantify difficulty difference if you aren't playing with skill levels?
I personally and a highly technical person and without the rules my combat would take forever as I nit pick everything. I'm a martial arts guy what can I say. I research all the time. I'm also terrible actor. I can be in the mindset of a particular character, but I can't act it to save my life. I can show people how a 100 lb girl can throw a 200 lb guy IRL, but how can I RP combat against someone else who's terrible at it, but there character is great at it? While trying to not look like an ass or know-it-all? In the WoD system I find quite a bit of comfort in that I can rely on the sytem to limit what I know conpared to what's allowed in game in respect to dots in skill.
On the other end of the spectrum, The average joe isn't going to have things like occult knowledge, Larceny of any degree, computer skills, or military grade firearms training. To me as a guy who knows or knows the general theory about a lot of things, I can see how daunting it would be for someone to try and act a skill that they don't even know the first thing about.
Picking handcuffs would seem impossible to the average person, but I can do it, behind my back and blindfolded no less.
How would you propose to translate RP in an MMO where if there isn't a progression system how do people get better at a skill such as the example above? In such a way to keep power gamers from abusing the system to do anything they want.
Doing things face to face is a bit different than doing things on line as people done live by societal rules on the net.
Why has there to be skills/talents for everything? Why not make the stuff like lockpicking for example dependant on your basic attributes (strength, intelligence, etc...).
Why not enable every player to do everything from the go and only have a few special-skills to choose from ontop of that to make them specialists in a certain area?
Character-progression and the treasurehunt for epics gets old and it's time for more roleplaying and social interaction instead.
Some kind of monetary rewards for quests is all there should be regarding character-progression, so that people can buy some items for their characters.
The main-aspect of the game shouldn't be about character-progression, but about player-interaction, clan/guild-warfare, social engineering, crafting and playerdriven economy.
With skills and levels you min/max your toons, and after a certain point the whole character-progression get's uninteresting.
In EvE you train the skills until you can fly the desired ship-classes and then you learn skills that you'll never use. My 5 year old character in EvE trains unneeded skills for some 2 years now actually.
In every system there'll be a point, where you max out the skills or levels you wanted for your playstyle and after that point it's still all about roleplaying.
So why not do away with the character-progression at all to begin with and start playing the game instantly like you want to play it?
There's too many spoiled people outthere, who got used to levels and skill-training over the years to feel like they've actually achieved something... pff...
Roleplaying is the only thing that keeps EvE Online running for the last 5 years and not the skill-trainings... and yes, alliance-warfare, politics, and economy is all considered roleplaying in my books as all these activities have nothing to do with character-progression.
On another note.... the passive skill-training in EvE Online is one aspect, why alot of people hate EvE Online, becuase they need to spend month of training and subscriptions first, before they can take part in the interesting parts of the game.
I'd be very much with you, jrs77, for any new IP, but CCP is picking up an existing setting and system, here. As nice as it would be, I seriously don't expect it to happen.
I have an IQ of 139 and very nimble fingers, but I'm pretty sure that I couldn't pick a lock, and I know people with IQs of <120 who can do things with their brains that baffle me. Attributes and skills are typically separate in RPGs partly because they very much are separate in reality.
Astrophysicists and evolutionary biologists both need to be very intelligent, yet the application of that intelligence is a world apart, and the biologist can't just stand in for the astrophysicist on his sick days. Likewise for pianists and guitarists, or football players and hockey players.
Absolutely, and the most direct way to achieve that might be as you suggest. Yet then again, White Wolf's Vampire RPGs achieve that even with experience-based rewards, and EVE achieves it even with it's time-based skill training.
Moreover, CCP has continued to say that this MMO is a social and political game—however they plan to achieve that in this instance, it is their stated intention, and it is the nature of the White Wolf system.
Voted no. I want a skill based system, yes, but not one dependent upon the passage of real time. I'd like to have more control over how fast I progress. If they do utilize it, though, it won't bother me that much as I'll be in from the start on this game.
I 100% do not want a level based themepark system. Thankfully, since it's CCP, I'm not too worried about them doing a themepark game.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Lot of interesting theories about what this simulation will be like and when I say a simulation I have a strong feeling that this upcoming title will be. Never played much PnP RPG games just the old Star Trek back when I was 7-10 , but I voted yes time based skilled based would be the way to go if the lore fits with it. I myself like the system EVE uses for progression, noone is uber powerful noone is uber weak its all about specialization and CCP in regards to EVE have did a great job over the years finding that balance and goes to show that you don't need levels to be successful.
Some of the posters in this OP seem to be very passionate about this project and the more they describe it the more im intrigued. It really seems like it would put the RPG back into the MMO scheme without the developer scripting everything for you and holding your hand like TOR will end up doing telling your story for you instead of it being the other way around.
Time-based would work with the lore. However, that model is the reason I never got into EVE. I refuse to play a game where my stats were based on how long I was subscribed, not how much or how well I actually played.
I would definitely prefer a skill-based system, ala UO. I could even settle for a mix, where time controls your stats (Strength, Dexterity, etc), while active use of your skills improves your talents (shoot a lot of guns, your firearms goes up).
If it basically comes down to EVE-style versus not, I choose the not. I don't care what the 'not' is, but I hate EVE style with a passion. So, I voted no.
Originally posted by geldonyetich
Wow, I knew you guys were pretty desparate to slam the game, but hacking the web page of a major game site so a user review masquarades as an official one? Pretty impressive.
[Edit: no, after seeing there's an actual video associated with it, I guess not, despite the wierd way GameSpot distributes its content making it looks like the reviewer didn't even write this.]
i don't get it why people say that in eve players make the rules... that's completely wrong, the developers make the rules, players are forced to comply by them that's it.
I mean you have an area with one rule "kill/die as much as you want" for what ever reason you want, you can kill some random guy and say its because he was was of a different color thus is a racist war... it doesn't matter because in the end your just making an excuse to kill them and that is not you making the rules.
Hell that isn't even a new concept, any game not based in factions(because there is another rule that say "you cant attack your own faction") has a similar system.
Get over it, players don't make rules in the actual game like some people are claiming, the best you can get is to make theoretical rules inside your guild where the only penalty is being kicked, hey this is a perfect example of why players cant be making the rules, imagine if you could do anything you wanted like forcing to players to pay for doing something against the rules like "paying a fine" it would be exploited, happens in real life and would happen in the game.
Rules will always be made by the developers in order to be a fair virtual world, players obey them and make excuses for their actions within their set of rules.
Politics imo is the act of achieving a peaceful solution to a problem instead of using force, games are ultimately about war and fighting each other wise it would be just a social-networking game dull, boring and it wouldn't be appealing to players.
In the end people are talking about the core of game design and are hardly thinking about the whole picture.
Let the flaming begin...
It's good that you're getting really interested but don't believe for one minute the remarks that Vampire: The masquerade doesn't have a progression system. Or Shadowrun for that matter. Both games do and increasing your character's abilities in both is part of the process.
That said, both games tend to be more storytelling type RPGs. They reward ROLEplay as much or more than ROLLplay. Depending on your Gamemaster, of course. Masquerade is heavy on social interaction and politics. There is combat, sure, but it's not a dungeon crawl type game.
SInce they are using Masquerade it is possible that the Sabbat threat will be in full force and that can create some combat. I don't see them incorporatiing PvP in the "because I can" manner that every other PvP plus game does. FIghting of that nature endangers the Masquerade. Not to mention you have to be very careful about killing another Vampire. And I don't mean diablorie, either. Every city has a Prince and all kindred in that city are his subjects. Killing one of their subjects could be a quick way to have an Archon on your heels. And Archons have the Prince's permission to end you.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Even Shadowrun had advancement, so I find that line of discourse interesting even as it is incorrect. Everything is about advancement in some fashion or another, whether taking into account role-playing or not. To suggest that RPGs are solely about social interaction is a farce. They offer a means of being social, as groups come together to accomplish something - advancement - furthering along the story - etc.
As for the poll, I voted no. Passive training makes sense in the world of EVE where it is possible to inject skillbooks into cybernetic beings. There is nothing in WoD to establish this sort of thing. The closest you would get would be some form of mechanic where points would be awarded to advance the character during some period of time - allowing the player to utilize them as they believe their character may have spent their time.
So in a sense, that would be passive - but not in the way the skill training works in EVE.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
It makes sense in EVE for the computer to "train" you with skill points. That same system makes no sense for a world in which you are yourself. I think the most likely thing would be that they will have a system much like the roleplaying game that already exists, in which you chose to put points into the things you value, and you gain experience by doing things in the game world (of course not just killing tasks, if you have played the game before).
If it does have a system like EVE, it will stray too far from the core of White Wolf's game in that respect, and if it does so in one aspect, what is stopping it from doing that in other aspects?
The closer CCP stays to the game that exists, the better it will be. Fans of the roleplaying game will be happier, and it will work better even for newcomers, as it is a tried and true progression system for a game which already exists. Even translating it into the online world, if you stray too far from the original system, you risk causing problems. I think, actually, how Bloodlines handled things would be a decent way to go (obviously it would have to be deeper to accommodate the sheer time and need for investment in our characters that MMOs need).
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
Well said.
At the same time, though, we have to be prepared for a probably hearty helping of divergence from the PnP material. Like choosing a setting that got apocalypsed six years ago, for instance. Heh.
An in between system would be, in my mind. You get daily experience on things you have accomplished and maintain.
So lets say, you get very little xp for doing things, such as "quests" "killing mobs" whatever. However, you gain like 150xp a day for being an active member in X cult, and 100xp a day for being the Sabbat Defense Captain or some rank that has responsibilities like guard the entrance to the whatever. Now you are rewarded for playing and obtaining relationships, and participating. However, you are not necessarily being rewarded for playing all day. If you cant play for a day or only a few hours a day, you can still get a decent amount of xp just playing the game instead of hitting the field of sorrows to grind mold sprites for a few hours.
I don't know if these is feasible, but it seems like a decent idea in theory.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
I dont' mind if there's a cap on skill. For example in 4 month you can learn all your skill.
I was talking on vent with my friends and they say they won't try Eve, because the veterans are so much ahead, and they have no chance to catch up with the time based skill system.
That was one of the main reason I dont' play Eve too. And the other being I'm not in the the FFA PvP loot thing.
You cannot quite sit on your butt in EVE and advance your skills endlessly. You need to break out your credit card, buy some GTC, convert it to PLEX, and sell it - so you can afford the skillbooks...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Eve is not the only game using time based skill training. Funcom have added this for their "alternate advancement" (aa) skills in Age of Conan. The difference is that you can get xp the regular way and by time. if you do a lot of solo missions the ratio is about 1/1 regular xp/time xp. the ratio is higher if you do group stuff and lower if you are a casual.
They also added offline levels. It takes 200 days to get a character from lvl 30 to 80.
I like time based advancement.
I would agree with you if the main point of a game is to advance your character. Grinding levels/skill points just get in the way if the game is about social interaction of different kinds.
Exactly other mmo,s are about leveling to get at the endgame contend via grinding for SP rather than about having fun [at least to me].
EvE is about forming player groups and trading/fighting other groups. Its also about Crafting goods that actually are in high demand as ALL items are destroyable. Its also about playing the role of Trader
and supplying people with needed goods like ammo or modules at a profit.
But above all EvE is a social game. which is why leveling is "almost" automatic so you can actually do what you want rather than grind mobs all day.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
That's because in "old school" MMOs, the object of the game is to advance your character. In EVE, the object of the game is to achieve your goals, and skill points are just another tool to do that with. And you dont achieve many goals by "sitting on your butt".
Likewise, I very much doubt that the pen-and-paper WoD players sit around all day preening over their L33t character stats when there are secrets to be found, scandals to spread, alliances to be made, backs to be stabbed and blood to be sucked. It's going to be a game of politics, treachery, player interaction.
Grinding sucks (heh). WoDO is not (so I infer) going to be a PvE based game where you grind mobz to gain levels to do 40-kindred raids on Cainxya's lair to score pH4t epix. This is not a Cryptic game.
Give me liberty or give me lasers