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Originally posted by Jetrpg Originally posted by ropenice Not true that camaraderie exists only with PVP. Everquest you had to group or be in a tight or large guild or you were at a huge disadvantge in leveling. The community was really good and making friends or at least allies happened every time you played.
Of hundreds of people? DAOC if you were a hib most hibs you fight and die for. You didn't need to even know them other than if they were elf, lurikeen, firblog, etc. Thats the comradery daoc had. Most pve in the game were group efforts as it almost always relested in better exp (unless people were just fighting yellows [even daoc had solo time when you wanted to fight at your own pace]).
Most guilds had over a hundred people that you grouped with and talked to every day. You don't only fight and die for teammates in PVP. PVE Grouping in games that are actually hard, have death penalties, high end raiding in difficult locations, need strategies, etc. gets intense as well, plus the guilds were very tight and spent a lot of time together, not just pick up fights in pvp.
Originally posted by Alienovrlord Originally posted by vesuvias Originally posted by Alienovrlord MMOs haven't lost this broad camaraderie, MMOs never had it outside of PvP content. Previous MMOs starting from UO were based on pitting players in competetion with each other for resources in PvE (XP, gold etc).
Well Said. We don't really know what the broader implications for this will be yet. This could change things to such a degree to almost be considered a new genre. Though I suspect when most people actually get used to it this way, they will ask "Why wasn't it always this way?".
Heh, I think that last sentence is very true. It's like the zipper, it seems so obvious now but it took a while to get invented. Truly good ideas are often like that.
Originally posted by ropenice Not true that camaraderie exists only with PVP. Everquest you had to group or be in a tight or large guild or you were at a huge disadvantge in leveling. The community was really good and making friends or at least allies happened every time you played. The main reason the communities stopped being important is because games cater to a larger, more casual player base leading to less challenging mechanics-soloing, no death penalties, easier leveling, etc. If you don't need to interact with community to succeed, then most won't. Hate to say it, but you have to force the grouping so players have to depend on each other. That builds trust and camaraderie. That is why the dynamic events model is so interesting, it encourages grouping/interaction, but doesn't force it, add open world pvp and the community should be strong and active.
I agree that Dynamic Events encourage player interaction without forcing it but your example of the EQ-style groups and guilds is exactly what GW2 is trying to avoid. From the article:
I think if you look at MMOs the really frustrating thing is that I am playing this game online with thousands of people and I don’t interact with hardly any of them. Maybe with the people on my friends list or in my guild and that’s it. In old school MMOs you didn’t want other players around you because they were kill stealing from you or they would get in the way of the stuff I was trying to do. That can drive a player nuts.
GW2 is trying to make a game where you're not limited to only wanting to interact with the few dozen (or less) people in your guild, but everyone on the server. This is a completely different level than anything that could be attained in EQ or any other previous MMO, if ArenaNet can pull it off.
Old-school guild players always accuse casual gameplay of letting people play a solo game when it's supposed to be a MASSIVELY Multiplayer game. It's time to throw that tired old argument back into their faces. What's so MASSIVE about only wanting to interact with your guildmates when they only make up a tiny fraction of the server population?
GW2 seems to be aiming to create a server-wide community that is based not only on just those players who want to be nice but actual game mechanics that support real player cooperation.
I was originally pointing out how the interview implied that this was something old-school MMOs had lost when in fact they never had something on this level simply because of their instrinc game mechancs. Heck, the orignal interview question seems to say that guild groups are responsible for the loss of the very camaraderie you talk about. I would agree with you that what camaraderie (in its limited fashion) that there has been in previous MMOs was the result of EQ-style guilds.
But ArenaNet has decided that they can make a game that can do far better than that.
i agree, GW2 is trying something completely new and I'm very optimistic that it will take mmo's to a new level. I was just pointing out many of the older games had active communities tha Had to work together to achieve goals thats why most guilds were near or over a hundred people (if it was a serious one) and you Had to group with strangers as well, so griefing and other negative behavior was frowned upon, because you needed each other, so it made no sense to burn bridges. Games changed to stop the forced grouping (which i like in some ways), but didnt offer many other reasons to interact in the game mechanics. If GW2 can succeed with this dyn event system it will change how future games are made. In the least it gives a game mechanic to interact in the game besides just talking about movies or comic books over the general chat.
Great ... PVP focus. I was gonna buy this too. Not any more.
So which of the new games is going to be smart and actually not do what all the rest are doing?
Originally posted by baalio Originally posted by ropenice
Not true that camaraderie exists only with PVP. Everquest you had to group or be in a tight or large guild or you were at a huge disadvantge in leveling. The community was really good and making friends or at least allies happened every time you played. The main reason the communities stopped being important is because games cater to a larger, more casual player base leading to less challenging mechanics-soloing, no death penalties, easier leveling, etc. If you don't need to interact with community to succeed, then most won't. Hate to say it, but you have to force the grouping so players have to depend on each other. That builds trust and camaraderie. That is why the dynamic events model is so interesting, it encourages grouping/interaction, but doesn't force it, add open world pvp and the community should be strong and active.
There are serious problems with forced grouping to build trust and camaraderie in the current MMO environment, now that they have gone mainstream and there are so many more genes in the pool...
Here are the problems that I see:
1) Many players(won't say most, cause I haven't met most... but most of the ones I have met) are mediocre at best. Back when I used to play WoW I used to take guildies into wailing caverns to teach them how to pull, cause the concept of breaking LOS or of staying at max distance to avoid adds seemed completely foreign to them...
2)Players who don't know... and don't want to know. They are doing something incorrectly(pulling a leroy vs. pulling at a distance, for example), or they are missing something about game mechanics, etc... and they do not want to hear it from anyone. They will even start raging because they perceive you as trying to "tell them how to play their character".
3) Players are self-centered. They will not be team players unless someone forces them to be. IMO this was the downfall of warhammer in NA. Players in europe were hitting the cities and gearing up before players in NA even got to the fortresses. I played on both sides on 4 different servers to max level, and I had RL friends who played on a few more... and the story was always the same. You get a group out in PvP, and no one would listen to the raid leader... Everyone was too busy doing their own thing. Just keeping people together was almost impossible, unless you had a zerg going. This was even more evident in the battlegrounds... "Man, did you see my damage numbers?" "Ummm, we lost..." "Yeah, but did you see my damage numbers?". We had the same thing in WoW... I lost track of how many times we lost our healers to "the bomb" in MC and stuff like that cause people wouldn't listen.
4) Players are picky. They get it into their minds that a group can only be effective if you have classes A, B, E, and G. So if you show up and there is one spot left and you aren't the class they are missing... too bad.
GW2, from everything I have been able to read about it, is incredible. I read their manifesto and watched their videos, and so far I agree with them 100%. They've taken mechanical steps to eliminate number 4, and they are trying to use gameplay to bring people together and try and establish community. If anyone can do it, it will be them... That being said, there is only so much they can do to overcome human nature.
I played DAOC from beta through to beta 3 of ToA, and while people's nostalgia for what we had in DAOC is real... and what we had in DAOC WAS real... People don't understand why and how we had it. The reason it was there wasn't so much because of what they were or what they built... It was because of WHO we were... When DAOC was out, 100k subscribers was a huge number, and there were only a handfull of MMOs, most of them with less than that. It was a much smaller community than the current environment. There was more of a barrier to entry on those games, with their interfaces, lack of tutorials, etc... And the people who actually made it into the game and stuck with the game mostly knew what they were doing. While making games slicker, more user friendly, and more appealing are always good things... I think that removing the barrier to entry on these games and bringing them wholly mainstream has harmed the player's ability to form communities and to find functional teams.
I agree with most of what you said and in no way am i defending forced grouping. I was happy to see games go more toward missions and content, soloing, some instancing and other new mechanics as the grinding timesink of sitting around waiting for spawns, gear dependence, kill stealing , etc got old, but the teamwork, strategy and relationships made it worth it. Recent games went to far away from the emechanics that encourage socialization. I'm excited to see how GW2's systems works in the game world with hundreds of people running arouind and if it will be enough to get the casual gamers to invest more to the community and be more of a part of it, instead of logging in quickly trying to get xp and logging out, without experiencing the rest. Not putting casual gamers down, I've been one before because of time constraints, but I think they miss out on other aspects of gaming communities, but with GW2 it sounds possible to be on for an hour and still get together and meet many people, succeed in a cool event and not spend more time than they can or want to. I do disagree with the point of so many bad players in guilds or groups, though in pick up groups it is more common, but serious guilds wouldn't keep members that were not willing to learn. If you've planned a raid for hours, took another hour to fight to the right location, etc and then get wiped because someone can't pull a mob or follow orders-they won't be invited back to the next raid. But over all good points and hope to see you in GW2!
The more I read about this game, the more I look forward to actually playing it. I first heard about it a couple of years ago, and there was a long silence when I would wonder if it was actually going to happen. Fantastic to know that it is, and also that there are so many great features. My latest excitement is about the tri-partite server v server pvp. Yay! *cheers*
They should let us play T_T At least the small parts PAX peoples got to. I don't care if it's limited! I just wanna...PLAY *claws at it* GIVE IT TO ME! Next year is going to come so slow. I probably won't get any sleep the week before it actually goes live.
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Originally posted by nefermor Great ... PVP focus. I was gonna buy this too. Not any more. So which of the new games is going to be smart and actually not do what all the rest are doing?
GW was supposed to be a PvP-focused game but I really enjoyed the PvE aspect of it. Anet will undoubtedly provide both aspects of play and the player will choose to take part in either or both. In GW you could make a max lvl toon and play PvP without ever playing PvE, or PvE without ever PvP.
As for the server vs server PvP, I am excited to see how they work this out. I would imagine it's a specific instance with balancing limitations set up, but I really really hope that it allows for huge battles
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
I peed my pants a little bit.
The more I read about this game, the more excited I become to play it!
Next up, the beta.
I hope it'll run properly on my laptop because I hate having to boot up my PC...
The response to the final question makes me wonder how much "end game" PvE GW2 will include. They made it sound like PvE is where you "level up"--although the GW2 world's "leveling" system through dynamic events sounds much much more entertaining than previous MMOs--and make friends, and then the world PvP server is where you go to participate in end game content, using your "leveled" character.
For the most part, I don't mind this concept for a game, so long as A) there IS some sort of extensive high level PVE, and this system doesn't generate a sense of discontinuity in the GW2 world. If it feels like you play and develope your character in one world, and then just copy/paste your character into a different pvp world, all the continuity that is traditionally generated by a virtual MMO world is shattered. Half the appeal of an MMO is existing in a continuous, persistent virtual world.
now if that game would have a persistent world instead of instances it might actually be interesting, sad.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Originally posted by Thane now if that game would have a persistent world instead of instances it might actually be interesting, sad.
Except it is persistant.
It is persistent.
Originally posted by Thane now if that game would have a persistent world instead of instances it might actually be interesting, sad.
its mainly persistent , with a few instances to tell the personal story
read about the game so it wont make you feel sad
Have fun storming the castle! - Miracle Max
@Homitu, you can level through PvP in GW2; it's not simply an end-game activity.
GW2 endgame consists of revisiting areas via the sidekick system, helping others through their personal stories for karma, 5-man dungeons, rolling alts, and of course the PvP which is there from level 2 onwards.
If by "endgame content" you mean large-scale instanced raids, then no, GW2 does not seem to be designed in that direction.
@nefermor: PvP is entirely optional in GW2. GW1 could be said to be "PvP-focused" and in five years I have taken part in exactly 3 PvP matches, yet still have PvE content and achievments to pursue. You never have to do it if you don't want to.
I hope there is some PvE endgame that motivates you to actually keep playing, cause I kinda doubt alot players will go back to level 5 content when they are lvl 80.
Hope they make some of the events and dungeons really REALLY hard
Firstly im going to say, i don't doubt this game is going to be epic.........and im not afraid to say it's going to crush WoW.......and finally any WoW troll will tell you....WoW is only the best MMO because really it's the ONLY MMO, and GW is the best PvP MMO because agian, it's the only one.
But GW2 doesn't look like anything NEW so far.......it looks WoW and WaR fused....i've yet to see those GW1 dungeon and mission sets implemented, that's what will really make this game i rekon. Apart from that the visuals, art content etc. and general gameplay will keep us entertained for AGES....all I'm asking for is a story to boot.................
p.s. is anyone else reading Ghost of Ascalon, I've only just hit the 6th or 7th chapter and im starting to like it..........
an MMO needs more than just this cookie cutter template which is no more than an overglorified UI, some basic game content and a few races and classes which don't really add so much to the game.........an mmo needs to be unique, and epic, with lore and fantasy which doesn't come from the boxes we all live in, you can't really fuck up an MMO with so many gamers out there, even Star Trek and Wars are going to sell.
I imagine the same end game problem all MMOs have with the big question, IF I have played this game well and spent my time exploring and learning the world just as much as levelling to 80 and getting the sweet gear..................WHAT do i do next........apart from rolling another character. What if I really like my warrior? What if I don't want to try any more? What if I want to go the distance with my warrior? MMOs nowdays just don't reward that quality....this could be solved with simply having a MAJOR STORY to follow at the end which yealds only the bonus of an excellent adventure, with or without other players........I don't mind playing with bot AI so long as they're not useless, maybe there is no killing but gaining some ultra elite skills sets for doing the story as you meet the LEGENDS of the LORE..........hell I'm sure i've heard gamers cry this stuff many times before, I've just never seen anyone do anything about it....GW2 could be the first to do it right.
Originally posted by arenasb Originally posted by Thane now if that game would have a persistent world instead of instances it might actually be interesting, sad.
so they kicked the old system and went for a real mmo this time? would be nice
They officially now have my attention.
Can't wait the game. I'm just hoping to hear something new about PvP in GW2...
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