Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

Class based vs freeform skill based

mmoguy43mmoguy43 , CAPosts: 2,439Member Uncommon

Class-Based

On one hand you have classes with their own assortment of abilites predetermined roles and limited choice of direction with stat distribution. I'm sure you have played a MMORPG like this(WoW EQ2,AOC,WAR, etc) to know what it is.

Balance

For the most part it is balanced. Classes are relatively equal next to each other in power and each have their own special thing that sets one apart from another.

 

Skill Based (Classless)

On the other hand you pretty much make what you want. You can choose skills and abilities that define what you can use and your role in combat or otherwise. Your uniqueness comes from your collective whole of skills. They could be focused like a more traditional class or composed of more untility skills and abilities.

Balance

Balance is very difficult to achieve. With hundreds to thousands of possible combinations of skills it takes a very long to time to balance everything. There will be several skill builds that will out match other ones but in a group enviroment players could take advantage of more specialized builds.

 

Trying to design a skill based mmo has been a F'n pain in the neck even though the vision of it sounds awesome.image

«13

Comments

  • FishbaitzFishbaitz Lynnwood, WAPosts: 229Member

    One option that is underused, in my opinion, is the equipment based system. Kind of like what FFXIV is going for and to a lesser extent GW2. You can make it so certain abilities won't show up on the same skillbar by limiting what and where, while still giving a fair ammount of customizeability.

    It can kind of be seen as a fusion of the two systems in a way.

    Or you can go the way of GW and combine the two systems, class based selection of large ammounts of skills.

  • twruletwrule Daly City, CAPosts: 1,251Member

    I was thinking about this the other day, and I've come to realize that I prefer a class-based system over a skill-based, fully customizable one in most cases.  However, for that to be the case, classes must feel unique in both motif and playstyle - not homogenized, while each feeling powerful on their own.

    In my experience, most skill systems don't really provide as much customization as they would seem to, since certain abilities/stats inevitably support the gravitation toward a few basic builds (for example, take Elder Scrolls - you can theoretically do everything, but chances are that you're going to mainly build your character as a warrior-type, mage-type, or rogue-type).  There are more builds possible, but not necessarily more viable ones for challenging pve content or pvp.

    My ideal compromise is a system that offers lots of versatility and customization within a uniquely separated class system (such as what GW2 appears to be doing).  In other words, every class has many different "builds" to choose from, but those will still be unique from other classes.

  • WarsongWarsong Dallas, TXPosts: 563Member

    There will never be any true balances but at least with a classless/hybrid system people have choices beyond a reroll per se.

    That is assuming the skills chosen can also be dropped and others learned. Best system I have played TBH And within this is the option to remake your characters to compete and give devs more time to "balance" things

  • KirinRahlKirinRahl New Smyrna Beach, FLPosts: 153Member

    It seems to me that the ability to make a perfect balance of skills and abilities between different skill combinations (or classes, if you want to just refer to them that way) is vastly overrated.  Sometimes, folks will find a twinky, bizarro thing that makes a class viable and is way overpowered.  When those things are found, that's FotM, and they get a nerf as soon as they can.  These things will continue to rise to the top even in rigidly limited class-based games like WoW or WAR; when they do, they get nerfed, or their interaction with other abilities do.  

    Similar to how Bright Wizard/Engie combos used to be crazy because Engies debuffed Corp resist and BW AoE was almost all Corp damage.  Now BW AoE has been moved to Elemental, which makes them not quite so crazy when used together.

    These problems come up in games with rigid class and skill interactions all the time.  They also come up in games where you can make your own class and even in the sort that allows you to make your own -skills-.  As such, it seems like sticking with the 'safe, balanced' option is a cop-out.  There'll be problems that need fixing no matter what you do, so you may as well go whole-hog and see what awesome stuff your players pull out of their asses.

    I like skill-based systems a lot.  Further, I think that skillmaking/modifying systems (see: Ryzom) are -very- interesting, and we need more games like these.  RPGs with freedom make me happy.  Being just another Engie is a little meh.

  • mmoguy43mmoguy43 , CAPosts: 2,439Member Uncommon

    I've thought about the equipment set giving you the abilities too but I don't like the idea that you can hold onto a bunch of sets of gear to swap out to change skills(not sure if thats really how is is in GW2 anyway). I do like the idea of a few rare armor pieces of gear giving abilities though but I wouldn't use it as the primary way to use abilities.

     

    Hmm.. yes everyone does end up filling one of those roles..

    Would having a skill based system with an extensive character creation which includes a lot of starting skills/abilities and restrictions (like more effective using light armor, less effective at doing anything with heavy armor; other skills etc etc..) be much different than class based?...well its more of a starting classes based then free-form.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    The way I see it, classes are simply pre-chosen groups of skills: a simplier version of the same game.

    Game balance is hard, not because of whether you have classes or not, but because few class/skill systems manage to stay true to the theoretical game plan at their core.  If you build your game up from an abstract form of rock-paper-scissors (but with more choices and layers but perfect symmetry), then game balance happens automatically.  Each skill becomes a different skin of user interface, names and graphics that hide the underlying math of the game and make "rock" feel different than "paper".  If people are having trouble with a skill/class, you treat it as a UI issue rather than a math issue.

    (At least that's how I would do it)

  • KirinRahlKirinRahl New Smyrna Beach, FLPosts: 153Member

    Deciding what to specialize in early and then living with those decisions is kiiiind of horrible for new players.  Asheron's Call did this, and if you didn't do some VERY specific things with your build from the get-go, you could have big problems as a result.

    That said, I think having a few starting 'classes' that act as a template and sort of start you on the right path would be nice.  Apprentices could have very little in the way of physical skills, having taken magical training instead.  Farmhands could be very solid, hardy folk perfect for tanking low-level content, street thieves could have some lock-popping, danger-sensing mojo off the bat, and so forth.  These things would make interesting little buy-in skills, and having a system wherein you could make your own would be nice.

    Something or other like Oblivion, I imagine, except instead of picking what skills level you up, you could choose a few to have extra points in at the start.  Having buy-points with permanent benefits and flaws like GURPS could be interesting, too, if the benefits and flaws didn't get so wildly game-able that they ended up totally off-the-wall unfair.  Scaling costs for points, higher cost, higher points, etcetera.  All interesting things, and rarely seen in the MMO world.  When they ARE seen, badly munchkinized.

  • DocZDocZ Baton Rouge, LAPosts: 105Member

    The biggest problem i see with a classless games is that in the end ( well probably only take a few months to a year of play) for people to start making classes on there own anyway especially when pvp is involved. someone online would find the best combination of skills in like 2 or 3 ways/combination sets and post tutorials online on how do make them and basically own all that down use those sets. So lots of players would end up copying them or somewere close to it just to match up.. or out of lazyness and you would end up with pretty much the same as a class game

    I challenged my reflection to a staring contest....4 days later i won

  • KirinRahlKirinRahl New Smyrna Beach, FLPosts: 153Member

    That's absolutely true, DocZ, but that's why God invented the nerf bat.

    When The Most Efficient Killing Machine comes around (and he will, rigid classes or no classes at all), you find out why he's so efficient and cut him back in a few key ways that make other skill combos viable.  He'll be pissed, FotM will be ruined, and folks will work on another way to game the systems and make themselves The Perfect Warrior.  When they come around, nerf them too.

    The goal of an open, non-class-based, experimental-crafting, non-rigid equipment system MMO is to have each and every class and each and every gear combo work to abouuuut the same advantage.  It will never be perfect, but total balance can't really be achieved.  Hell, in AoC, girls just didn't hit as fast as guys did for the first few months thanks to an error in the female attack animations.  So two people, same class, guy and girl?  Yeah, the guy always DPSed harder no matter what else.

    These problems always crop up.  Usually (the aforementioned AoC case excepted) the way to fix them is to nerf the scary ones by removing or reducing the power of key skill interactions that make them so powerful.

    That's the designers' problem.  Even Warhammer Online, after two years being out, is still balancing all the classes in -every patch-, and their skill system is about as rigid as you can make it.  Even with perfect skill mirrors you get problems like dickbag Squig Herders hiding inside their pets because they're short enough, thereby becoming untargetable.

    So yeah, of course people will make super classes.  They do anyway.  That shit floats to the top; the designers see it, nerf it, and move on.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    Originally posted by KirinRahl

    When The Most Efficient Killing Machine comes around (and he will, rigid classes or no classes at all), you find out why he's so efficient and cut him back in a few key ways that make other skill combos viable..

    But ... but ... *points up to my post*

  • KirinRahlKirinRahl New Smyrna Beach, FLPosts: 153Member

    You can't really have a game that balances itself.  Even something as simple as  Rock -> Scissors, 15dmg, Rock->Paper 5dmg, and so on all the way around, you're still going to have -things- in that game that make the classes feel different.  Mages can do different stuff, ranged classes have to have long range but less survivability, and so forth.  The mathematics can balance out pretty nicely, but player behavior is notorious for fucking things like that up.  My Shadow Warrior in WAR was a fighter; I'd sit on top of a building plinking away with my puny little bow, and when someone -finally- managed to get up top to where I was, I knocked the piss out of them, DoTed them up, and punted them for a frigging mile.  I didn't do tons of damage at range; I drew people in so that I -could- do real damage, 'cuz they figured they'd just be able to stomp out my guts.

    Laying that kind of trap for folks is one of the things that makes PvP so compelling.  Even as a 15 Shadow Warrior, widely considered the least potent class in Warhammer Online, I could kill 18-19 Choppas (widely considered an OP class) even without RvR buffs up.

    So you're always going to have assholes like me that screw with the metrics, or dynamics to make those classes feel different that make them play so differently that straight-up mathematics no longer apply.  I shouldn't be able to do those things with a Shadow Warrior, not at my level, but lo and behold!  There I was.

    Lacking those differing dynamics is going to lead to a boring-ass rock-paper-scissors festival.  I happen to think that the old classic R/P/S system ought to get scrapped for more interesting, less straight-up systems, but everyone loves the Holy Trinity and the rock-paper-scissors mechanic so much it seems permanently embedded in the fabric of the genre.

  • MuffinStumpMuffinStump Frankfort, KYPosts: 474Member Uncommon

    Hmm, there are major differences within class based systems however.

    Take DDO, for example, which does a poor job of representing the depth and complexity of tabletop D&D but still manages to give a wide variety of classes and class builds that eclipses most MMOs.

    A fighter could be a ranged focused, light/no armor soloer or perhaps a heavy armor wearing, aggro gaining, dwarven waraxe specced shieldwall and then you might give a level or two (or even a major split) of up to 2 more classes. Go Bard/Rogue/Fighter if you wish. Paladin/Sorceror.

    This is all before prestige classes and the numerous feat selections are figured in and racial choice has a large effect as well. If you can imagine a character then you can likely build it within this system.

    I'm not advocating any system necessarily but I thought it should be noted that the class based systems do not have to be so restrictive.


  • Shooter-90Shooter-90 Toronto, ONPosts: 100Member

    Depending on the style, class can be good or bad. One instance being sci-fi or sandbox game where it would be a minimum. 

    Fantasy is the only one I can really see where classes really work out very well.

  • Einherjar_LCEinherjar_LC MelfiPosts: 1,055Member Common

    Classless, skillbased games are the ones that are the most fun to me starting with my n00b days in UO and AC1.

     

    The class based games with their holy trinity just become a bore for me after so long.  Tank does X, DPS does Y, Healer heals Z.....ad nauseum.  Yeah, they're are variations on that theme but ultimately it's the same to me.

    Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!

  • FishbaitzFishbaitz Lynnwood, WAPosts: 229Member

    Originally posted by mmoguy43

    I've thought about the equipment set giving you the abilities too but I don't like the idea that you can hold onto a bunch of sets of gear to swap out to change skills(not sure if thats really how is is in GW2 anyway). I do like the idea of a few rare armor pieces of gear giving abilities though but I wouldn't use it as the primary way to use abilities.

     

    Hmm.. yes everyone does end up filling one of those roles..

    Would having a skill based system with an extensive character creation which includes a lot of starting skills/abilities and restrictions (like more effective using light armor, less effective at doing anything with heavy armor; other skills etc etc..) be much different than class based?...well its more of a starting classes based then free-form.

     What really needs to be done is decided what style of game, fantasy, sci-fi, wester, ect, and from there you can build up the mechanics to fit the world. Once you have the IP concepted you can then start focusing on the mechanics and abilities of said world based on what you want to do with it. Do you want to do Trinity with a twist, class based or open skill, RPS ballancing or a more even field. Different methods and mechanics make sense in different settings.

    Class based is excellent for giving a distinctly different feal for everybody, even if others can fulfill multiple roles. This is achieved through syles of the skills through naming, animation, and excecution as well as limits and abilitys that only that class has.

    Skill based allows the player to tailor into exactly what they want to be. It is true that it is harder to balance but the possible flexability of such a system allows for some unique and interesting builds and strategies. Eventually the community will probably make a few specific builds for certain tasks that remain popular and you get the Flavor of the Month as well.

    I personally like the equipment based system. It can allow for both the 'feel' of a class based system and the free form of a skill based system depending on how you set it up. How I would do it is have a skill tree for every weapon and? armor type in the game. Throw in an extra equipment slot for extra variety. Each type of weapon and armor and equipment has subsets that have unique skills attatched to them as well (so you don't run across Uber stuff at the end that people only choose) So at any time you have the skills from 3 different skill trees at any one time, and what you choose also plays a slightly larger role, e.g. this Icy Sword has a skill attatched to it that does cold DoT, while this Keen Sword has a skill that grants extra armor penetration, but they both also share the same tree. You level up in each tree as you use them, and its fairly easy to switch, but not in combat or instances, between them in order to facilitate easy grouping. Because who wants to spam LF* for hours on end? The tricky part comes in trying to make builds viable and to encourage switching up the weapons armor and equipment.

  • CeridithCeridith Toronto, ONPosts: 2,980Member

    Classless, so long as it's done right.

    Which means that there's some way to redistribute skills, to allow players to experiment with builds, pick skills up in the short term and drop them in the long term. I'm not talking about instant respecs, but having to work up each skill, or working to replace certain choices with others. Ultima Online is a great example to go by, where once you reached the total skill cap, you could force skills you didn't need anymore down by gaining in other skills.

    And yes, this system can be terribly unbalanced with regards to PvP, but then again, I don't think PvP mixes well with MMOs in any regard, so iI wouldn't care either way since I'd be playing PvE.

    All in all though, freeform skill systems can end up being incredibly fun and satisfying, especially if you develop a more original skill template that plays well to your playstyle.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    Originally posted by KirinRahl

    Lacking those differing dynamics is going to lead to a boring-ass rock-paper-scissors festival.  I happen to think that the old classic R/P/S system ought to get scrapped for more interesting, less straight-up systems, but everyone loves the Holy Trinity and the rock-paper-scissors mechanic so much it seems permanently embedded in the fabric of the genre.

    I understand where you are coming from and how games look that way on the surface, but ultimately any game, as complex as it is, is only a mathematical construct and eventually reduces to some interplay of actions and strategies that will compress through rounds of competition to some Nash equilibrium whether people realize its happening or not.  If you create a random universe of interactions, rock-paper-scissors is statistically the most likely outcome - you actually have to continuously tweak the game to keep it from settling into that rut.

    Admittedly, the weak point of my strategy is uniqueness in face of the interaction with the physics engine - range, stealth, etc need to be options that all characters have equal opportunity to persue, whether through skills, spells or equipment.   I don't blame you for being suspicious over whether its possible to really create unique-feeling characters in such a universe.  Done poorly, it will be too easy to see through the smoke and mirrors.

    So I'll except that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and I don't have a working model to prove my idea.  *ponders if there is any engine in which I could attempt to do a mock-up*

  • ThorqemadaThorqemada BerlinPosts: 1,277Member Uncommon

    I am curious how TSW will work out with its skill based system where you can choose any skill you know (7 active  + 7 passive out of hundreds) and be fully responsible for the outcome.

    For sure there will be some better "builds" then other but for the folk that wants to have the best "build" they only need to choose the "right" skills to be as good as the best.

    Perfect selfbalancing by the playerbase ?

    Strom of qqing bcs some builds are not equal ?

    "Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"

    MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
    Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon

    This forum speaks for the Minority of the MMORPG population. Most people her for example choose Sandbox over theme park.

    image

  • twruletwrule Daly City, CAPosts: 1,251Member

    Originally posted by Shooter-90

    Depending on the style, class can be good or bad. One instance being sci-fi or sandbox game where it would be a minimum. 

    Fantasy is the only one I can really see where classes really work out very well.

    I disagree.  I don't believe it has anything to do with the genre of the IP.  The only real difference I can think of between a skill-based system and a class-based one is that your skills are bundled and chosen for you from character creation with classes while they are not in a skill-based system (and you presumably have access to all the skills in the game with the later system).

    All your game's universe needs is a societal structure where people choose to take on certain roles and specializations.  That's pretty much every IP that'll ever be made in which a society with sentient beings is being represented, because it's the nature of human society and it's what we know.

  • Cochran1Cochran1 Eden, NCPosts: 456Member

    Free-form skill progression could be a great mechanic, but so far from what I've seen has been implemented poorly as of late. Most just choose the easiest skills to level (because the devs gimped this particular skill or it was too complicated to level or use) which makes for a bland pool of player skill.

    Of course only a few manage to find a sweet build and then everyone else just copies it, same as they do in class based games. That's no fault of the game design tho and will continue as long a people are creatures of habit.

    Either way I'll play and enjoy both styles because I don't really care what the best build of the week is, I pay to play a game the way I want.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,962Member Uncommon

    First of all you only need balance if you have PvP, PvE only games don't need it as long as all skills are somewhat useful. A skill based PvP game is hard but not impossible to make.

    And you didn't list the third option, the one most pen and paper use which is a mix. You choose a number of class skills and some common skills or even an off class skill or two. Dungeons and dragons kinda uses that but R.I.F.T.S/Palladium does it better.

    I think anyways that the best way to balance this type of game is to rank all skills from 1 to 3. Either you get a certain number of points to buy skills for, like 20 point and can mix all you want, either you can get a few powerful or a lot more less powerful.

    Or you get a certain number of each, say 3 of each or more depending on how many skills you have.

    And skill based games should have more useful skills than just combat skills, like disarming traps, picking locks, appraising and other stuff that is useful.

    The devs then have to balance all 3 skills against others of the same kind but they also have to check so 3 1 skills are about as useful (but preferably a little less since you get better at more things with 3 skills than one). It is a lot easier than balancing all skills against eachother.

    An alternative is splitting up the skills in groups, like combat skills, thief skills and so on and balance them against eachother, that works great if you have classes but let them pick certain skills for themselves.

    Say that a rogue gets 2 combat skill, 5 thief skills, 1 athletics skill (jump, dodge, stuff like that), 1 merchant skill (appraise, haggle, and similar) and 2 general skills (languages, crafting, everything all classes can have). A warrior gets 5 combat skills, 2 athletics skills, 1  wilderness skill and 3 general.

    Then give all classes 1 cross class skill, with a few exceptions that only certain classes can have. It makes thinhs more interesting, maybe this mage actually know how to pick locks since he grew up in the slum or the thief learned how to track since his father took him hunting.

    That allows you to customize your own skills and be a little different, but it only works as long as the skills are about as useful as the rest in the same class. If one skill is a lot better than the rest the whole thing falls apart because then you might as well just give it as a class skill instead.

    It is still a lot of work to balance out all skills against eachother but it is not that much harder than balancing out classes against eachother if you think about it, even if you have to be careful with combos. I love a system like this, it works well in most pen and paper RPGs and there is no reason it shouldn't work in a MMO as long as you do it right.

    Systems like DF where you can have every skill at the same time is just an abomination in my book.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,962Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Cochran1

    Free-form skill progression could be a great mechanic, but so far from what I've seen has been implemented poorly as of late. Most just choose the easiest skills to level (because the devs gimped this particular skill or it was too complicated to level or use) which makes for a bland pool of player skill.

    Of course only a few manage to find a sweet build and then everyone else just copies it, same as they do in class based games. That's no fault of the game design tho and will continue as long a people are creatures of habit.

    Either way I'll play and enjoy both styles because I don't really care what the best build of the week is, I pay to play a game the way I want.

    Bad balance is something that we see in most MMOs, classes or not and no matter if you can choose skills or if it the old EQ style with set skills. But the balance really only gets important in PvP and when you pick the skills yourself.

    The devs need to spend more time on that issue and that goes for most devs includingBlizzard, Guildwars is the only well balanced MMO I played and I played a lot.

  • WarmakerWarmaker San Diego, CAPosts: 2,231Member

    I prefer skillbased / classless character systems.  I like the freedom in character development they give within the constraints of the system itself.  I like the idea of making a skillset that matches MY theme for the character, not somebody else's predetermined builds.  The other fun is coming up with a build that is effective and not "Flavor Of The Month."

    As far as balance in a traditional class based system, that is an illusion.  I can't count anymore how many times in different games where a certain class or two were considered overpowered and then nerfed to hell.  Once those were nerfed down, the nerfbat continues to gleefully swing at anything still standing.  The hilarious part is when they nerf the bejeezus out of stuff that the player community considered not needing it to begin with.  Another hilarious part is when devs empower a class where they later need to nerf it to hell a little while later.

    "I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)

  • Cor4xCor4x Dallas, TXPosts: 241Member

    Something I haven't seen mentioned here, although Loke666 touched on it above, is a segment based skillset similar to that used in Matrix Online and similar to that originally in SWG.

    Basically you have a skill tree and a certain number of points to allocate. How you get the skills per tree is not relevant but could be class / level based if you prefer.

    The main problem with skill based point allocated games (such as AO) is that you can gimp your character if you are not careful and allocation (such as in AO) was insanely hard. If you like spreadsheets (like me) then you'll do OK in AO.

    The problem with skill-use games (such as Darkfall and UO) is that they're rarely balanced (as so mentioned) as to use-time / skill point gain and give rise to macroing and stupid leveling tricks.

    The problem with class rigid games (the Everquests & WoW to some extent) is that everyone looks like everyone else.

    The problem with class bolt-on AA games (EQ end-game and WoW) is that there is the One Build To Rule Them All for raiding, PVP, and PVE. Generally the best bang for the buck is number-crunched and used. Often these titles do NOT have accurate reporting on exactly what  you spend your points on. Generally resetting points or respecing is difficult and gimping your character is a major source of angst.

    The problem with loose class-choice systems (such as CoX) is that you make a few choices from a limited pool set. This allows some customization and you can gimp your character. Same reset issue as above.

    The problem with dual-class choice systems (such as Runes of Magic) is that your biggest choice that effects your game is made at character creation. Some class hybrids do not seat well with each other or at all.

    All of them are hard to balance.

    However, difficulty of balance is proportional to the number of choices a player can make. This is because analysis of various combinations becomes impossible after a certain number of permutations has been reached.

    You CAN make most/all powers bland (such as CoX) but this mutes individuality.

    As you can see, player choice / character individuality is proportional to difficulty in balance. Also, player choice is directly proportional to the danger-of-gimping of a character by players.

    This holds true for PVE. PVP games are radically harder to balance and there will always be One-True-Build for every character-set-choice.

    If you nerf stuff, the ability of a player to shift out of a skill/class set will be inversely proportional to the anger generated. A UO style use-skillset or a matrix-style segmented skillset is probably easiest and so responds better to nerfs. In UO, when something got nerfed, everone shifted to the next FoTW. However, there was a time when virtually every UO character followed 1 of maybe 3 builds.

    Also, certain styles of games create the advantages of alternate characters or accounts. The fewer choices a player has, the more useful alts or multi-boxing becomes.

    image

«13
Sign In or Register to comment.