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Tank, Healer, DPS trinity -- why fight it?

RepulsionRepulsion Groton, CTPosts: 173Member

Aside from an armored behemoth yelling insults or "Look at me, look at me!" not making sense from a role-playing standpoint...

 

-- Why are we really trying to fight something that works so well, and has been tried and tested?

When I say "we" I refer to people, who have spitballed ideas in the past about breaking that unholy trinity we call tank/healer/dps classes.

 

I've had some ideas on abolition myself, but there is always an inhereit flaw somewhere.

- Give everyone the limited ability to heal. (Class trees wouldn't be allowed to emphasis this much/at all, or you'd end up with some pigeonholed into being a "true" healer.)

- Remove 'taunts' from tanks, and instead gear all of the classes toward dealing some sort of damage. The closest person would get the aggro. (But how many ways can you make a DPS class do damage differently, really, and to what end.)

- Everyone regenerates over time if left alone. Essentially forcing you to run and hide/rotate tanks while you regenerate. (Unimaginative, and ruins the flow of a fast-paced game. Not to mention makes it easy to harrass/zerg rush a single guy down.)

Just a few examples.

 

I'm not saying we shouldn't try to work around it, or come up with new ways to abolish "LF healer/tank" in trade chat, but is it really as bad as we sometimes make it out to be?

 

 

Incoherent post.

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Comments

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member Common

    Because its restrictive to players and hard to balance. It's not as bad as some make out and shouldn't be changed just for the sake of it, but a skill based system is far more flexible and allows people to fill 'trinity' roles whilst still having greater character customization.

     

    Oh and it makes nerfs about twenty times worse then they need to be, in a skill based game if a skill is nerfed the general community all takes the brunt and they can simply refocus on another skill, in a class system is hits specific players very hard and can totally f'ck up their character.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • lzanonlzanon Winter Haven, FLPosts: 335Member Uncommon

    The fact that some Online rpgs have worked without using the holy trinity means it can be done . Phantasy star online , when it came out on the dreamcast did not have dedicated healers much less tanks.  each class could buff and debuff, also heal (save the cyborgs but there were items they could use to give the same effect)  was your typical fighter, ranger and caster game. and even in the hardest setting a group of 4 hunters (fighters) or  a group of 4 force (casters) could beat the content.

    seems guild wars 2 is borrowing that concept which made phantasty star online great (before it was hacked to death) and that was teamwork.

  • FlawSGIFlawSGI Woodstock, GAPosts: 1,379Member Uncommon

     I personally don't think there is anything wrong with the system, but I do like to try new things and to hear (GW2 as an example) a game try to do something different is exciting. I just think of it as an idea that could really work. I read a lotta books and I know in the stories there is rarely someone you could call a "healer or tank" and the story moves along fine. Not sayen it's better but when I hear the trinity I usually think it's not like that in movies or books so I don't see why it has to be the only way in games. If the game has strengths in other areas, I dont think the trinity or lack of is ever gonna be a deciding factor in whether or not I play.

    RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.

  • RepulsionRepulsion Groton, CTPosts: 173Member

    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    Because its restrictive to players and hard to balance. It's not as bad as some make out and shouldn't be changed just for the sake of it, but a skill based system is far more flexible and allows people to fill 'trinity' roles whilst still having greater character customization.
     
    Oh and it makes nerfs about twenty times worse then they need to be, in a skill based game if a skill is nerfed the general community all takes the brunt and they can simply refocus on another skill, in a class system is hits specific players very hard and can totally f'ck up their character.

     

    Balancing is easier when you have defined classes, imo.

    Skill based systems that allow you to pick from a broad spectrum usually penalize those who jack-of-all-trades their characters. In essence, it becomes as restrictive as having a single class.

  • IronfungusIronfungus Florence, AZPosts: 519Member

    Originally posted by Repulsion
    I'm not saying we shouldn't try to work around it, or come up with new ways to abolish "LF healer/tank" in trade chat, but is it really as bad as we sometimes make it out to be?

    Yeah, it is as bad as we make it out to be. First of all, it limits play-time potential when you need to spend three hours trying to find a tank or healer so you can attempt to finish whatever you're doing, if your tank or healer is good (usual case, not). If a group of skilled players get together to down something, they shouldn't require a tank or a healer to do it. All this trinity has ever done is limit the capability of parties everywhere.

  • AgentForestAgentForest Waterford, PAPosts: 23Member

    Personally, I don't think the problem with the whole Tank/Heal/DPS trinity is the games themselves, or balance issues.  The problem is the gamers themselves.  Look at Champions Online for example.  You can choose ANY powers in the game that you want as you level up.  You could be a tank and still used ranged attacks, or be a damage dealer but still durable.  You aren't nailed down to a role quite like in other games, especially since you can not only change your overall Role (support/damage/tank), but you can even choose to be a balanced role; a happy medium between them all with access to everything.

    They built the game for this free-form concept to thrive, but people still choose to go full tank, full support, and full dps.  This trinity wasn't made by the developers, but by the players, and the developers simply decided not to fight the current and work WITH our pre-existing habits and builds.  :)

    Granted, some games have found ways around this, most still offer the default Holy Trinity routes.  For example, City of Heroes/Villains has support power sets for many of the classes.  I have a defender (great support + moderate ranged attack capabilities) who focuses on keeping the team healed, another who provides forcefields to keep them from getting hurt in the first place, and yet another who focuses on draining attack power from the enemies into our team so we stomp the enemies into useless pulp in seconds.  Now, normally teams in CoH are the typical Main Tank + Main Healer + Damage, sometimes with some crowd control thrown in, but the best teams I have ever been on were 3 Controllers and 5 Blasters.  Controllers provide supportive heals, buffs, and debuffs to the mix, while offering large-scale crowd control, and blasters are simply the glass cannons of the game.  We had NO dedicated healer (maybe someone with a small single-target heal or something, but nothing impressive), and we definitely had no tanks.  Our team rampaged forward with no need for resting or healing.  We just killed.  This is because of good team-work, well-planned attacks, and other forms of damage mitigation (besides tank+healer strategy).  The 2 most frail classes in the game ran through some of the hardest missions unhindered and unharmed.

    My example may be simply from one game, but it is proof that the trinity isn't "required" to succeed.  It's simply the easiest, most obvious route to take.  I like when games leave the option for other routes in, but if you completely neglect to include the tank+heal+DPS strategy, you will upset too many other gamers and hurt your game's chance of lasting success.

  • NephaeriusNephaerius Posts: 1,660Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Repulsion

    Aside from an armored behemoth yelling insults or "Look at me, look at me!" not making sense from a role-playing standpoint...
     
    -- Why are we really trying to fight something that works so well, and has been tried and tested?
    When I say "we" I refer to people, who have spitballed ideas in the past about breaking that unholy trinity we call tank/healer/dps classes.
     
    I've had some ideas on abolition myself, but there is always an inhereit flaw somewhere.
    - Give everyone the limited ability to heal. (Class trees wouldn't be allowed to emphasis this much/at all, or you'd end up with some pigeonholed into being a "true" healer.)
    - Remove 'taunts' from tanks, and instead gear all of the classes toward dealing some sort of damage. The closest person would get the aggro. (But how many ways can you make a DPS class do damage differently, really, and to what end.)
    - Everyone regenerates over time if left alone. Essentially forcing you to run and hide/rotate tanks while you regenerate. (Unimaginative, and ruins the flow of a fast-paced game. Not to mention makes it easy to harrass/zerg rush a single guy down.)
    Just a few examples.
     
    I'm not saying we shouldn't try to work around it, or come up with new ways to abolish "LF healer/tank" in trade chat, but is it really as bad as we sometimes make it out to be?
     
     
    Incoherent post.

    The bicycle works well and was tried and tested, so why invent the car?  By your line of logic, once someone thinks of the first step in a field all progress should stop there.

    BTW GW2 is trying your first 2 suggestions and it appears to be working out well from what we've seen so far.  Not to mention that GW1 never had taunts and pretty much did things according to your second idea and it worked well; granted it was not a true MMO.

    Steam: Neph

  • twruletwrule Daly City, CAPosts: 1,251Member

    Originally posted by AgentForest

    Personally, I don't think the problem with the whole Tank/Heal/DPS trinity is the games themselves, or balance issues.  The problem is the gamers themselves.  Look at Champions Online for example.  You can choose ANY powers in the game that you want as you level up.  You could be a tank and still used ranged attacks, or be a damage dealer but still durable.  You aren't nailed down to a role quite like in other games, especially since you can not only change your overall Role (support/damage/tank), but you can even choose to be a balanced role; a happy medium between them all with access to everything.
    They built the game for this free-form concept to thrive, but people still choose to go full tank, full support, and full dps.  This trinity wasn't made by the developers, but by the players, and the developers simply decided not to fight the current and work WITH our pre-existing habits and builds.  :)
    Granted, some games have found ways around this, most still offer the default Holy Trinity routes.  For example, City of Heroes/Villains has support power sets for many of the classes.  I have a defender (great support + moderate ranged attack capabilities) who focuses on keeping the team healed, another who provides forcefields to keep them from getting hurt in the first place, and yet another who focuses on draining attack power from the enemies into our team so we stomp the enemies into useless pulp in seconds.  Now, normally teams in CoH are the typical Main Tank + Main Healer + Damage, sometimes with some crowd control thrown in, but the best teams I have ever been on were 3 Controllers and 5 Blasters.  Controllers provide supportive heals, buffs, and debuffs to the mix, while offering large-scale crowd control, and blasters are simply the glass cannons of the game.  We had NO dedicated healer (maybe someone with a small single-target heal or something, but nothing impressive), and we definitely had no tanks.  Our team rampaged forward with no need for resting or healing.  We just killed.  This is because of good team-work, well-planned attacks, and other forms of damage mitigation (besides tank+healer strategy).  The 2 most frail classes in the game ran through some of the hardest missions unhindered and unharmed.
    My example may be simply from one game, but it is proof that the trinity isn't "required" to succeed.  It's simply the easiest, most obvious route to take.  I like when games leave the option for other routes in, but if you completely neglect to include the tank+heal+DPS strategy, you will upset too many other gamers and hurt your game's chance of lasting success.

    I don't think as many people would be "upset" if developers designed a non-trinity system that was intuitive and worked.  The trinity system is not intuitive, it's just that players have worked themselves into that system over time because it ended up being what was most effective in most game designs.  Change the design so that it isn't what's most effective, and it'll be gone.

  • DookzDookz ManilaPosts: 554Member Uncommon

     

    The strength of the Holy Trinity comes from specialization which isn't a bad thing however looking at the downside causes problems beyond spamming LF Healer/Tank in chat.

    Often times when I'm in a group, we spent lots of time waiting and looking for the last person with the right class to join our group when during those time there are others not in a group who are also searching (sometimes standing alone in front of the party leader) but because they weren't a DPS, we could not accept them. That was a lose-lose situation. I lose immersion once I start over-thinking about these technicalities that hinder us from moving forward and enjoying the game. It's a bad feeling to see someone left out, and it's even worse if you are the one that's singled out. Booting other players because they found a "better" class is common too and that can be frustrating.

    When I do play a healer, and I think I'm a competent healer, I get praised for doing such a wonderful job keeping them alive especially in moments of close deaths but then the other members of the group forget each other's contribution to the completion of the mission or quest. And if a mission or quest fails much of the time I will get blamed for the failure of the entire group like no other then everyone leaves. Not a great feeling either and it can be stressful.

    If I feel like playing with a guild-only or friends-only group, and I badly need a tank, and there is one available but for one reason or another we won't enjoy being grouped with that person then that leaves us in an awkward situation. We have to wait longer or take him.

    Having too much dependence on one particular role can be devastating to the entire group if one of them does not perform to your expectation. De-emphasizing the Holy Trinity rather than completely abolishing it by blurring the lines (as opposed to erasing the lines) would allow for greater flexibility within an already formed group without members of the party losing a sense of identity founded in their chosen class.


    Playing now: Cities: Skyline / Ori and the Blind Forest / Banished

  • AramathAramath Mims, FLPosts: 161Member

    The problem I have with this combination is that 99% of the games out there have a flaw in the system using this configuration.  Usually, the dps are way overpowered because they want to be able to solo vs npcs while the tanks and healers have no problem at all soloing mobs without being overpowered.  However, once the end game begins, the overpowered dps make tanks a non-feasible class because the tank becomes a severely underpowered dps.  Only one or two games come to mind where the tanks were not over run in the end game because the dps is whacking out so much damage that the tanks defenses are overwhelmed.  I prefer to play tank classes but am tired of playing classes that plain out suck in pvp end content.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 19,157Member Rare

    Originally posted by Repulsion
    -- Why are we really trying to fight something that works so well, and has been tried and tested?
     

    It is not a stupid question but there are several reasons.

    First of all the trio makes combat easier and people just need to take care of their own role in the party. That is not good in my book, anyone who tried re-enactment fighting knows there is a lot more to actual combat than that and the easiest way might be the right thing for some people but it sure isn't right for everyone of us. Too easy. 

    Secondly it makes it easy for the dev, the AI of a triad game is easy to program and dumb as a doorknob. That however means that the mobs are predictable in a very different kind than games that don't have the holy triad. The first GW have no tanks and that makes combat very different and in my meaning more interesting. Bad AI is boring and tanks promotes bad AI.

    Thirdly, healing do prolongs combat in the current system but do we really need any in combat healing whatsoever? I don't see how healing makes combat more interesting, I think it actually makes it more boring, I played fights that taken forever and where getting hit means very little. With no healing you have to keep track very closely at your life. Let people heal up after a fight instead. Healing does not actually make combat more fun.

    The fact that something works does not mean you can't do it better. My old C-64 worked and I still threw it out, now I have a hexa core PC instead. There are always better and more fun to do something yet MMOs use exactly the same mechanics as the first ever used, Meridian 59. Since I started Meridian a long time ago have very little changed.

    Combat needs to be more fun and doing the same thing over and over is more and more boring. Killing of the holy triad will force the devs to actually try something new, sooner or later that will lead to a more fun system.

    There is no way I can believe that the first tried system is the perfect one. I been playing pen and paper RPGs since 1984 and there is no boring combats than in D&D 4th edition that is based on the holy triad, nothing. The healer is not the main culprit here but the tank, but the heals doesn't actually make combat more fun either.

    In P&P have always the most fun combats been with intelligent mobs going for the easy kill and for heals to be rare or not at all. And I believe sincerely that the same goes for MMOs as well. It takes some skills since you need to follow the entire combat but that is just good, people will learn it.

  • skeaserskeaser Wichita Falls, TXPosts: 3,881Member Uncommon

    Horse and carriage got my ancestors around just find, why get a horseless carriage?

    Swords were good for war why upgrade to guns?

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 19,157Member Rare

    Originally posted by twrule
    I don't think as many people would be "upset" if developers designed a non-trinity system that was intuitive and worked.  The trinity system is not intuitive, it's just that players have worked themselves into that system over time because it ended up being what was most effective in most game designs.  Change the design so that it isn't what's most effective, and it'll be gone.

    I think you have a point there. Programming a good AI is hard work and something FPS games spend a lot of work on. In MMOs it is an easy way to cut corners, the holy triad mobs are dumber and faster to make.

  • captainnlcaptainnl Hazerswoude-dorpPosts: 70Member

    Originally posted by Repulsion

     
    -- Why are we really trying to fight something that works so well, and has been tried and tested?


     

    Because like you say, it worked so well for so long way too many games use it. Since I played a heck of a lot of those games it now bores me to death. I'm really looking forward to a game like GW2 that strays away from that path.

  • AgentForestAgentForest Waterford, PAPosts: 23Member

    I have to agree with you, Dookz.  I play support classes a lot.  There's a rewarding feeling being the reason your team pulled through a fight.  Unfortunately that often comes hand-in-hand with the blame for failure as well.  For example, in WoW, a game known for the Tank+Heal+DPS Trinity (to the point where the game's UI in the dungeon finder does nothing else but fill these roles), I would play a discipline priest built for healing, and was quite good at it, but as soon as I'm on a team with less-than-stellar DPS players, I would often run out of mana.  Not because I was bad, poorly geared, or didn't distribute talent points well, but simply because these people couldn't kill fast enough for the fight to end before my mana did.  But the healer still takes the blame.  In CoH, a game known for easy tanking, I could tank with my eyes closed, and was very good at snatching up stragglers who were out of my taunt radius.  But again, if a crappy player starts using mass-knockback moves like grenades and other explosive moves, enemies would fly out of range, and no tank on earth could gather them up again before the taunts wore off and they killed the damage dealers.  Then in turn, the enemies live too long, wear out the healers' endurance, and ultimately kill the tank, then naturally, "You suck at tanking!  You couldn't even keep aggro, let alone outlast the enemy damage!"  The trinity system puts too much emphasis on set-in-stone strategies, that if one part fails, the whole thing crumbles, and usually all the blame is put on the 2 most pivotal roles: Tank and Healer.

    A lot of the games that use the Trinity do so because it's easiest to do create from a developer standpoint.  Everyone has one set job that is specifically defined.  The problem is that it's hard to blur the lines, and often shunned.  In WoW's case, they even made it so specifically built for this strategy that there is little room for hybrid builds in PvE.  In CoH/CoV, you can easily have a Buff+DPS+Control team or a Debuff+Buff+DPS team that does even better than the normal trinity, but in WoW, the game's mechanics and even the dungeons and challenges you are faced with don't allow for it.  If you make a hybrid Resto/Balance Druid in WoW, you'll be hard pressed to find much use on a dungeon, but in a pvp zone you'll do great... because the build IS great.  But the dungeons you are just a gimped version of 2 roles already filled by someone else who's more capable.  You can't be main healer because the game is designed to need a better healer than you, and you won't do enough overall damage because the game is expecting more out of a DPS player.

    The main problem is that games rarely use all damage mitigation methods to their full potential.  Tank+Heals is just one.  There's also buffs (which in WoW aren't as strong as other games because this role is just stapled haphazardly onto other roles like healer or dps), debuffs (often stuck to other roles too, like tanks and dps), crowd control (again, not elaborated on well by WoW), and positional defense (cliffs, stealth, travel powers, speed debuffs/buffs, etc.).  Some games do all of these things well, but healing and tanking are just 2 of the most common methods.  CoH/CoV give more emphasis to these alternative methods and as a result have more varied team designs.  Even Warhammer Online (which uses the typical Trinity as well), makes these alternatives more main-stream.  For example, most characters have a ranged move that debuffs enemy speed when attacking them from behind, if not a full-on speed debuffing power, allowing for the team to cripple others and defeat them from a safe distance.  This positional survival method can be used by a group of DPS players to take out the typical Trinity.  I've even seen a group of 3 or 4 healers destroy their attackers using the debuff+buff+heal+positional safety method, with no tanks or DPS to speak of.

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,219Member Uncommon

    My first experience of an MMO was of course great. Everything felt amazing. I came across a healer in a pvp zone and tracked them without being spotted for about 15mins trying to get nearer. I saw them go down a route and new a short-cut detour, took it and got ahead and got the ambush on them. But all that hardwork undone because they could just boost their health bar all the time. Secondly playing some keep sieges and playing badly I did not care as my health bar was topped up by the resident healer was the next wtf? moment that made suspect something was plain wrong with the mega-healer specialist.

    This made me realise straight away that the healing system was deeply contradictory to the combat at the heart of mmo's.

    What happened on screen was of secondary importance to builds and stats. That's got to be an imposed limitation more than a best system?

  • popinjaypopinjay Northeast, PAPosts: 6,539Member

    I like the holy trinity approach for the most part. I'd be interested in other games that are "trying" new things but so far, games that do fail badly mainly.


    Usually, it turns into one big DPS fest where the one guy who's doing the most DPS starts yelling at the other DPSers to "heal" him because he's now pulling most of the hate. Everyone has one/two personal heals for themselves in this scheme but usually that ONE moron thinks they should be using it for him. This is multiplied when you have higher end content and multiple mobs.


    Then the guy gets one shot/two shot and now you're down with mobs going nuts. Usually the all DPS route with not tank/healer/dps fails because of gear setups. Clothies, leatherheads and poorly defensed plates are no match for a typical tank when absorbing damage.


    Perhaps in a decade someone will come up with something completely new, but right now the trinity is picked as a base because it's usually the most efficient and safest method of getting higher end content done.

  • AgentForestAgentForest Waterford, PAPosts: 23Member

    Thirdly, healing do prolongs combat in the current system but do we really need any in combat healing whatsoever? I don't see how healing makes combat more interesting, I think it actually makes it more boring, I played fights that taken forever and where getting hit means very little. With no healing you have to keep track very closely at your life. Let people heal up after a fight instead. Healing does not actually make combat more fun.

    The fact that something works does not mean you can't do it better.
    In P&P have always the most fun combats been with intelligent mobs going for the easy kill and for heals to be rare or not at all. And I believe sincerely that the same goes for MMOs as well. It takes some skills since you need to follow the entire combat but that is just good, people will learn it.

    I have to agree with you that if something works, it does not mean you can't do better.  One of the things that drew me to Warhammer Online is how well-balanced the PvP is, despite having some of the most original classes ever.  Like a melee dps/healer, a tank/controller/debuffer, a tank/dps, a dps/healer, etc.  No one role was incapable of doing something else.  Disciples of Khane would rip people up, while pouring out small heals to the nearby teammates with every swing of their dual short swords.  Marauders were a versatile non-stealthing ambush troop, used to sneak in behind, impale healers with their mutated arm spike, then mutate their arm into a club once the rest of the enemies notice them so they can start pummeling the whole lot of them, all the while distracting the enemies from the main attacking force in front of them by causing them to attack this lone barbarian who threw a kink in their plans.  It was more dynamic and interesting than typical games because there was more jobs to be done than tank, heal, or deal damage.  There was flanking jobs (stealth/ambush/skirmishing), positional defense roles (engineer/magus who put stationary defenses up like turrets and demons), tank/annoyers (in pvp, they can't force you to attack them, but the debuffs and control they do to you will make you want to, lol, or leave you vulnerable in the meantime), and more.

    I do have to disagree though thatn heals make fights more boring.  True, using only heals as a method of preventing damage will get boring fast, but using heals in conjunction with other methods is always fun and dynamic.  If a healer gets no opportunity to do anything else, I feel the game is not dynamic enough, but it sure is easy.  For example, in CoH, i find Empathy Defenders (the main healing build) to be boring, because healing is pretty much all you do, with the occasional buff.  Forcefield defenders are waaaay more exciting.  You put bubbles around your teammates every few minutes, but between rebuffs, you can fight, maybe use a basic healing move once and a while, shoot force bursts to toss enemies away from frail teammates, create force explosions that knock enemies over and buy your team more time to kill them, possibly stun them.  You have more to do, and it doesn't get boring.  In WoW, if you are a healer, you'll get yelled at for trying to use your damaging spells in a dungeon run, lol.  It's a waste of your mana.  That is a major problem when half your powers are shunned because you are a certain class or role.  That's what makes the Trinity so boring.  Tanks can't really use their DPS moves, healers can't use their DPS/survival moves, etc.  It makes the gameplay shallow.

  • whpshwhpsh San Antonio, TXPosts: 199Member

    I chose to fight the trinity because it's the easy road. It's easy to explain to new players. It's easy for developers to create content. And it all leads right back to the same place we, as gamers, have been before.

    I much prefer skill based systems where you can create something much closer to what you want to try. I had several different unusual combinations in EVE (I'm using a ship to being analagous to a class) and SWG. Some were absolutely horrible, some were awesome, and some were worth it just to get the chat box to explode with "WTF was THAT?!" after you pull off some ridiculous combo (or explode in a fiery death blossom as the case may be).

    I like skills because you don't have to be like everyone else if you don't want to.

    The trinity defines your character even before you log into the game. Even if they offer expertise trees, your character is going to sit 'best' in one of them. If you want to be a tank, then all good tanks pick A, B & C or A, B & D if you PvP (because taunts don't work on real people). If you instead pick X,Y & Z, then you'll not be a good tank and likely not be able to complete the content that the developers have created specifically for A, B & C.

    Personally, I don't understand why they don't have hybrid systems. It would be so much nicer if, when you dinged, you got two buttons: Level My Warrior and Advanced Leveling

    Push one and you get the default skills of a warrior. The other and you got to look at maybe gaining fewer hitpoints but improving your critical hits (random example).

  • SuperXero89SuperXero89 Amory, MSPosts: 2,549Member Uncommon

    I'm a firm believer in the old adage that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."  The general distinction between, tank, healer, and DPS has been around long before the MMORPG genre was a twinkle in any developers' eyes, and while I appreciate games which promote originality within their design, I don't believe in games which try to be original simply for the sake of being original.  I can't see very much wrong with the idea of the holy trinity, and I would say that efforts which are made to alter the system could be resources better spent in other areas of a certain game's development.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 19,157Member Rare

    Originally posted by AgentForest

    I do have to disagree though thatn heals make fights more boring.  True, using only heals as a method of preventing damage will get boring fast, but using heals in conjunction with other methods is always fun and dynamic.  If a healer gets no opportunity to do anything else, I feel the game is not dynamic enough, but it sure is easy.  For example, in CoH, i find Empathy Defenders (the main healing build) to be boring, because healing is pretty much all you do, with the occasional buff.  Forcefield defenders are waaaay more exciting.  You put bubbles around your teammates every few minutes, but between rebuffs, you can fight, maybe use a basic healing move once and a while, shoot force bursts to toss enemies away from frail teammates, create force explosions that knock enemies over and buy your team more time to kill them, possibly stun them.  You have more to do, and it doesn't get boring.  In WoW, if you are a healer, you'll get yelled at for trying to use your damaging spells in a dungeon run, lol.  It's a waste of your mana.  That is a major problem when half your powers are shunned because you are a certain class or role.  That's what makes the Trinity so boring.  Tanks can't really use their DPS moves, healers can't use their DPS/survival moves, etc.  It makes the gameplay shallow.

    Well, I mean that particularly healbot classes are really boring. D&D type of healing with a limited number of spells can be interesting. Healers with some other purpose might not be totally boring but not fun either.

    My point is anyways that you can make interesting combat with no healing whatsoever. 

    2 Real knights in full armor could duel for a surprisingly long time, over 15 minutes was not unheard of since a knight in a platemail isn't easy to bring down, they usually stunned them and stuck a knife into holes in the armor to kill them. 

    I actually believe that hitpoints in themselves is not a must in a MMO, a critical hit system similar to the one in Warhammer FRPG and new system for armors would work great also even if balancing it would take some time. But that is a bit off topic.

    I played several games without the holy triad anyways, Guildwars and Lineage to mention 2. It is not less fun, rather more and it is a lot easier to get a full group.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 19,157Member Rare

    Originally posted by SuperXero89

    I'm a firm believer in the old adage that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."  The general distinction between, tank, healer, and DPS has been around long before the MMORPG genre was a twinkle in any developers' eyes, and while I appreciate games which promote originality within their design, I don't believe in games which try to be original simply for the sake of being original.  I can't see very much wrong with the idea of the holy trinity, and I would say that efforts which are made to alter the system could be resources better spent in other areas of a certain game's development.

    So I guess you drive your T-Ford around and are writing this on a Commodore Vic 20.

    Please, all of our world today is building on people trying to do things better.

    It started with some dude who thought it was cold or wanted to cook his meat that invented fire and now we have the internet and have been to the moon. 

    Trying different things until you get something better is what makes us humans and what has driven our society since pre history. 

    Saying that the holy triad must be the best method because it is old and works is like when people wanted to burn Copernicus because he believed that the earth evolves around the sun or something.

    Everything can be made better.

  • hanshotfirsthanshotfirst Beverly Hills, CAPosts: 710Member

    Because the entire premise that anyone in their right mind would focus all their attention on the most damage resistant opponent, while simultaneously ignoring both the guy healing him AND the glass cannon trying to melt your face off is patently absurd.



    It only "works so well" in PvE encounters designed specifically to facilitate it.

  • jondifooljondifool cphPosts: 1,114Member

    since arena-nets approach with GW2 is mentioned alot, why not go to the source

    http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/healing-death/

    they define healing as follows:

     Healing is the least dynamic kind of support there is. It is reactive instead of proactive. Healing is for when you are already losing. In Guild Wars 2 we prefer that you support your allies before they take a beating.

    So healing is a subcase of support !

    and tanking as this:

     Tanking is the most rudimentary form of the most important combat fundamental, CONTROL. Every game has it, yet it always seems to get a bad name. In Guild Wars there was Knockdown, Interrupt, Weakness, Blind, and Cripple, to name a few.

    and tanking is a subcase of Control.

    Dps is still damage.

    assuming that Arena-net are into something maybe the question is not why fight the trinity , but rather why just stay with that limited game mechanic, if it can be improved? This is the task arena-net have given themself, with control, damage and support as roles. While they say they have a new trinity , i rather see it as they are ekspanding and upgrading the old one to something more fit and fun.

    The frontline character , does not work with a stupidfying taunt, threat or aggro, that only works in PvE. But have control abillitys that works just aswell in PvE or PvP. The Support player can now actual look at what goes on in the game world , and not be forced to keep looking at healthbars. whats not to like ?

    read how to create a succesfull mmo before posting about GW2. And read tao of ArenaNet before talking about innovation in GW2

  • jondifooljondifool cphPosts: 1,114Member

    Originally posted by SuperXero89

    I'm a firm believer in the old adage that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."  The general distinction between, tank, healer, and DPS has been around long before the MMORPG genre was a twinkle in any developers' eyes, and while I appreciate games which promote originality within their design, I don't believe in games which try to be original simply for the sake of being original.  I can't see very much wrong with the idea of the holy trinity, and I would say that efforts which are made to alter the system could be resources better spent in other areas of a certain game's development.

     i wish i have payed attention to this post before posting my last reply. I do think that you are right in generel , if it aint broken then don't fix it, but on the other hand often we don't know that things can be better or different before someone shows us. And when first shown there is no going back. try going back to black and with television, it doesn't work!

    I can see a few things wrong with the holy trinity! Tanks are often borring to play , relying on a mechanic that doesn't work in PvP. Healers are often forced to watch healthbars and not the game. There is downtime looking for groups because game play is so dependent on thesse roles. None of the roles are easy to balance for soloplay.  

    i think a game that start with thesse observation and try to improve from that, is not just trying to be original simply for the sake of being original, but are actual aiming at creating something new and more fun!

    read how to create a succesfull mmo before posting about GW2. And read tao of ArenaNet before talking about innovation in GW2

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