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PvE without a Tank System/Mechanics is simply a Zerg Fest! Prove me wrong otherwise
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It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts. (c) Sherlock Holmes
Let's just wait till the GW2/Rifts/whatever-you-are-referring-to comes out and see how it pans out.
And keep the Net free of such... trollish topics in the meantime.
thats the only thing I've seen him do, bar starting topic to praise WoW and diss some other game...no wait, thats trollish topics again.
Why havent this guy been permabanned yet, is beyond me....
I didn't enjoy the character builds in Guild Wars. Didn't feel like a solid role playing game to me. But if you like it, that's fine.
I think the Zerg appeals to the solo players. They like to play solo most of the time anyway, and then in games like WoW, where they throw in a group dungeon every now and then in the quest chain that drops an item even the solo players want, they pretty much want to join a group, get the item and get it over with, then back to solo play.
So zerging works fine for them, since they don't spend a lot of time in group situations anyway.
You forgot Crowd Control.
If you can do good crowd control, that's a way to control the encounter as well, with mez, stun, snare, sleep, etc.
But would you really want crowd control to grow in importance to the extent where tanking becomes unnecessary? Because it seems to me that all you'd end up doing is replacing one trinity (tank/dps/healer) with another (crowd control/dps/healer) or perhaps (debuffer/dps/healer). Is that situation any better than the situation we already have?
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
Guild Wars proved otherwise yes.
Though on the Ursan days, it was a zerg fest as well.
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
But would you really want crowd control to grow in importance to the extent where tanking becomes unnecessary? Because it seems to me that all you'd end up doing is replacing one trinity (tank/dps/healer) with another (crowd control/dps/healer) or perhaps (debuffer/dps/healer). Is that situation any better than the situation we already have?
.
The phrase 'trinity' is inaccurate. There are four archetypes, tank, healer, dps, and CC. Trinity needs to be done away with.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
Overwhelming force is a succesful combat tactic as old as war. And consider that real life has no such thing as a "tank" in the mmo sense. Thats because real life is not a stupid AI which attacks based on a manufactured threat number. Hence why tanks in PVP are useless. Your opponent simply avoids you and kills all your friends first, then targets all the DPS on the tank.
fixed for ya mate
truth be told, history taugh us plenty of times that overwhelming forces are far from successful against brilliant tacticians
Seriously, I can't see why we can't have both in one encounter.
Zerg wave --> zerg wave --> zerg wave --> Mini-boss who hates X class in your party above all others and gives him priority, hopefully a heavily armored class for the sake of your party --> zerg wave --> zerg wave --> zerg wave --> Mini-boss who is vulnerable to some kind of taunting or magical insult, but no guarantees of only attacking one class; will periodically go for the weaker ones, so they'd better know how to run --> zerg wave --> zerg wave --> zerg wave --> Final boss, kind of like the 2nd mini-boss but throw in some fancy mechanics or puzzle or w/e to make the encounter interesting --> EPIX LEWTZ!
I'm dreaming, I suppose. People look at "zerg" like its something they stepped in. I say there's nothing wrong with the undirected chaos of mass battle (and it doesn't have to be chaotic on your part, if your team is organized and disciplined enough. An efficient team will cut through enemies faster, even in a "zerg," than a bunch of solo heroes swinging at anything they see).
And arcdevil, since brilliant tacticians are few and far between, I'd rather have overwhelming force.
well...
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1261442/troll.swf
now: GW2 (11 80s).
Dark Souls 2.
future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
"Bro, do your even fractal?"
Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
LIES
You're tank just got destroyed by a mob, get some better gear, dipshit!
@OP. You're funny. GW worked without tanks just fine, in fact, the more prone to surviving damage you were, the less likely the AI was to attack you.
Disagreement Heirarchy
Hello, I am CC.
GW was still a zerg fest PvE combat.
Show me a game that doesnt have Tank mechanics that isnt a zerg fest.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Tanks are fine, anyone to try defend the group or his teamates by soaking up damage is fine by my book. However, what I really hate are the artificial threat and aggro mechanics in games like taunt. Utilize other tactics such as body blocking, kiting, and general control is much more interesting than a threat based mechanic.
If you want to call this zerging than so be it. It is so much more interesting than having one person sit there and use threat with taunt to keep all of the mobs attention.
Hello CC i'm ranged DPS welcome to the party and FUUUUUUUUU
Of course, but to a point. The kinds of combat you have in MMOs are short engagement, where a zerg usually wins. Definetly in long battles can tactics overcome or outlast. You also have to consider that most MMOs dont have gurilla warfare mechanics. Its designed towards frontal assault, where both sides have equal individual damage capability (everyone is same class with same gear, etc).
Eve online is probably the best example. They have tanks, but in PVP they die at the end. You kill all its support and the tank goes down.
U mad?
True, but in a way this just reinforces my point. Crowd control has been declining in importance since the days of EQ1, because people for whatever reason just couldn't do it. So the responsability of controlling the fight that used to be more-or-less shared between the tank and the CC (who were also DPS) shifted more and more onto the tank. Again, some games emphasize CC more than others (it's not used at all in WoW except in special situations, but even my pug groups in LOTRO do their best to CC tough pulls without being prompted) but it's impossible to deny that it's importance has declined across the board.
Like I said, I don't know if putting the responsability for control & support on everyone instead of just a couple of people will work out or not, but I'm interested in seeing how it turns out. My main concern is where the threshold of failure will be - there's tons of people who can't do anything more advanced than spam a rotation, right now they roll DPS as a class that's not expected to do anything other than that and they're OK, for the most part. If these same people suddenly have to improve their game to get any groups because they keep wiping everyone I think they'll go play some other game than stick around and figure it out.
vi.. you are correct.. Class roles are deminishing with each new game it appears. MMO's like EQ1 that had a variety of roles to play changed into this lazy mans holy trinity.. Heal, Dps and Tank.. IMO, that is the simplest form of group play besides just having everyone be classless and just dps.. CC in WoW for example was just too difficult for the masses.. Too many just couldn't do it effectively.. Too many broke sheep, or the hunter couldn't lay his trap down right, all of which caused many groups to whipe frequently.. So to make the game EASIER ( more profit ) Blizzard started nerfing roles left and right so everyone is equal, and the difficulty dropped..
Is the holy trinity great? or bad? It all depends on your style of play.. I like variety and complexity.. To me filling 1 of 3 roles is less fullfilling then 1 or 6.. or moreso.. and combat in so many games is just a zergfest.. If you can kill a mob in under 10 seconds, it's too fast.. Hell.. My mage in WoW was my farmer.. The fighting was so easy, it wasn't even a challenge.. EVER..
PS.. I also hated insta heals or insta mana after a fight by eating or drinking.. What a joke..
If you want to insist that GW's PvE was a zergfest, it is your loss. I found it to be far more interesting than your average MMO combat. Surprisingly, the lack of tank did not feel like a mindless zergfest but actually made people think more and concentrate more on the engagement. In some ways the combat plays like it is in PvP where there isn't any tanking. People have to use proactive means to defend themselves, not just soak and heal incoming damage.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Just because the fact someone even thinks such a thing as you can't stray from the same tired tank/bla bla format you can't have interesting combat is a pretty bad display of the common mentality of the MMO consumer.
We all wonder why devs just rehash wow.