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Anyone else not going to be satisfied with MMOs until "skill" is added into the gameplay?

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  • redOrcredOrc raananaPosts: 100Member

    Guild Wars PVP is based on "skill".

    You can open max level PVP character on day 1 and play with it. Gear is of almost no importance. Anyways you can "open" all gear options (for PVP) within several days of game play.

    Each guild in the game gets "rating", which matchs it's skill to the other guilds. When you enter a Guild-Vs-Guild game, an automated selector will select a guild matching your skill. Winning a match will improve your rating and loosing will decrease it. So very fast you will find yourself playing your rating guilds.

    The game is a little low now, since everybody are waitng for GW2. I hope it will be the same in that respect.

      

  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,578Member Uncommon

    IMO the MMO's that require skill are the ones with a more FPS approach to attacking.

    image
  • sadeyxsadeyx leicesterPosts: 1,553Member

    Plenty of skill required in APB :P

  • orangerascalorangerascal LondonPosts: 52Member

    Originally posted by Rabenwolf

    I cannot see Starcraft falling into that category since it isnt twitch based. It does require user input, and it is real time, but it features many different challenges found in the traditional MMO.

     

    Starcraft is about as 'twitchy' as they come. It's not a coincidence that the best players in the world have APM's that hit 400+. (That's actions per minute for those not in the know). You know what 400 APM's are, its 6-7 mouseclicks/keystrokes per second. SC pro's go through a regiment that trains their eye-to-hand coordination to move that quickly. In korea you can hire coaches that improve this aspect of gameplay and these coaches are highly sought after.

    Most newbies think starcraft is just a strategy game. It's not. Yes, there are stategic elements to starcraft like using the best units to counter your oppoenents units, but even the worst counter units can stand a chance if your micro-management is very good. Also starcraft's strategy is very limited as everyone has a pretty good idea of the best units to counter other units. Thus the game ends with whomever is the better twitch player.

    -------------------------------

    As for 'skills',  'skills' come in a variety of packages including

    - group synergy

    - situation awareness

    - game knowledge

    - twitch reflexes

    - command experience

     

    Look at any professional team like spain's football team. Each player including coaches will have great expertise in one or more of the following aforementioned attributes.

  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,578Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by orangerascal

    Originally posted by Rabenwolf

    I cannot see Starcraft falling into that category since it isnt twitch based. It does require user input, and it is real time, but it features many different challenges found in the traditional MMO.

     

    Starcraft is about as 'twitchy' as they come. It's not a coincidence that the best players in the world have APM's that hit 400+. (That's actions per minute for those not in the know). You know what 400 APM's are, its 6-7 mouseclicks/keystrokes per second. SC pro's go through a regiment that trains their eye-to-hand coordination to move that quickly. In korea you can hire coaches that improve this aspect of gameplay and these coaches are highly sought after.

    Most newbies think starcraft is just a strategy game. It's not. Yes, there are stategic elements to starcraft like using the best units to counter your oppoenents units, but even the worst counter units can stand a chance if your micro-management is very good. Also starcraft's strategy is very limited as everyone has a pretty good idea of the best units to counter other units. Thus the game ends with whomever is the better twitch player.

    Used to download loads of pro starcraft replays and watch them with the APM counter on and think "Wow". The best in Korea get paid to play it so I think it justifies it :)

    image
  • aaradunaaradun Montreal, QCPosts: 91Member

    I'll be honest i haven't read most of this thread, but a SKILL as you say based mmo will never truly happen. Sure there will be acouple out there but their market share will be so small then most dev will not bother doing them.

    Why do i say that, well simply most people that play MMO are playign a game to have fun when skill start becoming a requirement to play said mmo people will try but 90% of the people will end up quitting after the first month simply because they don't cut it and it's not fun for them.

    So a pure skill MMO like you say will probably never happen and if it does it will not really be successfull simply for the fact that they won't be able to draw out enough people to make them viable.

  • sadeyxsadeyx leicesterPosts: 1,553Member

    Originally posted by orangerascal Thus the game ends with whomever is the better twitch player.

    Quoted for Truth.

     

    Maps in all RTS games have a very limited 2 or 3 rstrategies, if you deviate from these then you'll just get crushed.   Once you know them its simply about micro managment, which, as pointed out is just how fast you can twitch.

    I know these games are popular, but they are incredibly boring, if your doing 400 APM then it wont even be about your twitching, it will be about latency.  Desipite fast internet speeds latency is always going to be random and unreliable.   Not really a good envoiroment for determining "skill"

  • RajCajRajCaj Lafayette, LAPosts: 706Member

    I've been waiting since Ultima Online redesigned their itemization in Age of Shadows.

    The problem, as many have stated, is that gear progression is a GREAT way for developers to lead players around through the "content" as they see fit.  It's just easier from a development standpoint to be proactive about the content if they know in advance that everyone will be doing "this" to upgrade their gear.

    And of course you get all the problems with a gear progression based MMO, like STATS > SKILL, extrinsic reward system gets players doing things they don't neccessarily enjoy doing, etc.

     

    The key to creating a MMO that is primarily skill based is that the item system has to be relatively common or craftable.  There were magic weapons and armor in UO but it typically something used to give you an "edge" and not a rediculous advantage. 

    The other key componet is that the combat system has to be relatively simple and/or uniform.  Ultima had only 2 main base classes....Mages & Warriors.  There were slight variations of the two that allowed for some tactical diversity.....but on the whole it was an even playing field with a very unique casting system that made Mage Dueling one of the first E-Sports.

     

    In a day where MMOs are trying to seperate themselves from the rest of the pack by offering MORE stats and MORE classes.....its highly unlikely that any game devloper will be able to fully balance all class types with eachother.  Instead they adopt a Flavor Of The Month system that continueously changes all the classes so that each get their 15 min in the sun of domination over the rest.

     

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    Gaming is hard!

    All that thumb and wrist workout... serious business. 

  • RajCajRajCaj Lafayette, LAPosts: 706Member

    Originally posted by heerobya

    Gaming is hard!

    All that thumb and wrist workout... serious business. 

     I love the "relax, its a video game" card. hahaha

     

    Once upon a time, MMORPGs were a game genere that offered a more in depth and "mature" playing experience than what you could get out of consoles.

     

    The mainstreaming of MMORPGs by games like WOW might have set a lower set of expectations for many new comers to the MMO market....but some of us are still looking for a game that reminds us of why we migrated away from consoles (and other more casual game types) to MMORPGs.

  • garrettgarrett Posts: 261MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon

    TERA definitely has skill factored into all of its game play.

     :p 
  • karat76karat76 Wellston, OHPosts: 1,000Member Uncommon

    I don't like the ideal of a mmofps would be a good fit for me. I loathe fps almost as much as I hate pvp.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    Originally posted by RajCaj

    Originally posted by heerobya

    Gaming is hard!

    All that thumb and wrist workout... serious business. 

     I love the "relax, its a video game" card. hahaha

    Once upon a time, MMORPGs were a game genere that offered a more in depth and "mature" playing experience than what you could get out of consoles.

    World of Warcraft is infinitely more complex and in depth then Ultima Onilne.

    Trust me, I was there 10+ years ago. 

  • PalebanePalebane Tucson, AZPosts: 3,225Member

    Skill is relative. And is also defined differently by different people for different gameplay features. I'm satisfied playing games that my wife and son are able to play with me for the most part. I don't necessarily have to be the best at anything to enjoy it. If you want real skill-based games, you should play the multiplayer shooters that were released from 1990-2004. Though again, that is just my definition of skill. I'm sure many would argue.

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  • Excalaber2Excalaber2 Merrick, NYPosts: 357Member Uncommon

    In my opinion:

    Skill = Dueling in UO when both mages typically have the same HP and Mana and skill and Armor.  It's how they time their spells and select the spells and interrupt that makes the win.

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  • ntstlkrntstlkr Woodbridge, VAPosts: 65Member

    It's simple. You really want skill based combat then get rid of levels for one. A starting "level" character gets a stab into the back of the neck of a "level" 80 character. What should happen? The "level" 80 character bites the big one because that's what really happens when someone takes a stab to the back of the neck. Case in point, the last time I checked, my 'ol First Sergeant was a tough and mean SOB but it sure as hell didn't make him bullet proof or any more resistant to a grenade landing at his feet than Private Snuffy. But that's not likely to happen in an MMORPG any time soon. Player Character level trumps Player Skill.

    Two, get rid of "magical gear". I see someone mentioned that even in FPS games, players will gravitate to the more powerful weapons. This is true to the extent that the inclination is to get the most powerful weapon they can have given the tactical situation at hand (and their play style, I tend to run and gun but I know plenty of friends who are more comfortable sniping). Where the corollary with MMORPGs breaks down is anyone can kill anyone else even sticking with the basic starting weapons.  A bullet to the head is a bullet to the head whether it comes from a stock  AEK Vintovka or an M416 sloted with a red dot. And no. When my old unit in West Germany (really putting a date stamp on this reference) transitioned from the M16A1 to the M16A2 (before the introduction of the SS109 rounds) I didn't magically get a bonus to my accuracy stats...

    In MMORPGS, gear levels, like player character levels.....well you know the deal. A chest piece or helmet should provide protection and damage mitigation (to a point), not somehow add to your agility of all things. But can a player character of any game, armed with only a stock weapon and armored with only stock gear seriously take on another player character equiped with even average "stat" of comparable level? Nah.... 

    And let's not even go into te whole "class" thing and "balance"....

    You want to see what skill based melee combat is like? Give Mount and Blade a whirl. Now if they had THOSE combat mechanics in a MMORPG...

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  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,741Member Uncommon

    Defining skill in games is easy:

    Skill is the ability to execute on solid decision-making.

    Decisions are any decision in the game, from the strategic decision to spec Restoration to tactical decisions like deciding to use Ability A over Ability B (in a given moment of combat) or deciding your reticle needs to be higher to score a kill in a FPS.

    Executing those decisions is the physical act of making those decisions a reality.  Much of the time this isn't difficult (press 1 instead of 2 and your character will use Ability A) but in some cases it's a true physical challenge (as in sports; or the FPS player needing to move his mouse exactly 1mm higher to get that headshot.)

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  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member

    I already am satisfied, Asheron's Call has always had skill added in. You have to move your character around to dodge missiles and magic bolts among other skillful acts.

  • sacredcow4sacredcow4 Amherst, OHPosts: 193Member

    You basically described a sphereserver UO shard.  The best players could run around on a llama with a kilt and bandana on and take on 5-6 people with insane gear all at once.  The combat was extremely skill based(not just character skill).  Not to mention the macro/grind time to max was what.... 2 or 3 days?

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  • BioNutBioNut College Station, TXPosts: 414Member

    Originally posted by ntstlkr

    It's simple. You really want skill based combat then get rid of levels for one. A starting "level" character gets a stab into the back of the neck of a "level" 80 character. What should happen? The "level" 80 character bites the big one because that's what really happens when someone takes a stab to the back of the neck. Case in point, the last time I checked, my 'ol First Sergeant was a tough and mean SOB but it sure as hell didn't make him bullet proof or any more resistant to a grenade landing at his feet than Private Snuffy. But that's not likely to happen in an MMORPG any time soon. Player Character level trumps Player Skill.

    Two, get rid of "magical gear". I see someone mentioned that even in FPS games, players will gravitate to the more powerful weapons. This is true to the extent that the inclination is to get the most powerful weapon they can have given the tactical situation at hand (and their play style, I tend to run and gun but I know plenty of friends who are more comfortable sniping). Where the corollary with MMORPGs breaks down is anyone can kill anyone else even sticking with the basic starting weapons.  A bullet to the head is a bullet to the head whether it comes from a stock  AEK Vintovka or an M416 sloted with a red dot. And no. When my old unit in West Germany (really putting a date stamp on this reference) transitioned from the M16A1 to the M16A2 (before the introduction of the SS109 rounds) I didn't magically get a bonus to my accuracy stats...

    In MMORPGS, gear levels, like player character levels.....well you know the deal. A chest piece or helmet should provide protection and damage mitigation (to a point), not somehow add to your agility of all things. But can a player character of any game, armed with only a stock weapon and armored with only stock gear seriously take on another player character equiped with even average "stat" of comparable level? Nah.... 

    And let's not even go into te whole "class" thing and "balance"....

    You want to see what skill based melee combat is like? Give Mount and Blade a whirl. Now if they had THOSE combat mechanics in a MMORPG...

    What you say is really the truth. Gear grind has to go and levels should only matter in what "skills" you have or what weapon types you can not in how much health/mitigation you have. A level 1 should have a chance to kill a level 80 in a skill based game

    Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3

    Waiting on: Guild Wars 2

  • solarinesolarine IstanbulPosts: 1,203Member

    One thing I know: I'd be much more satisfied with imagination and intelligence taking an important part in gameplay rather than nimble fingers.

  • kellerman24kellerman24 HellPosts: 87Member

    Originally posted by BioNut

    I have been playing MMOs for a long time (Aceron's Call was my first) and I have never really been satisfied by the gameplay.  Well, why play them you ask? To be honest, I play them mostly to relax and have have some nice casual multiplayer with friends. I also play them for story and roleplaying purposes. But this said I would really like an MMO to come out that is not for casual gamers but for hardcore gamers.

     

    But wait, wait!!!??!!! WoW has plenty Hardcore gamerzzz doesn't it?

    Short answer= No, mmo hardcore people are NOT hardcore gamers. That thought is laughable.

    Long answer= Hardcore gamers are people who enjoy games that require skill, not time commitment. (think street fighter, Call of Duty, japanese top down shooters).

    This is really the crux of my issue with MMOs. They require absolutely no skill at all. I mean, there isnt a single open world MMO thats PvP or PvE  doesn't boil down to who has better gear, higher levels, better traits, etc.

    I want to see a guy tank the biggest boss in the game wearing nothing at all because he is just that FREAKING good. I wanna see an underdog win because he has a flawless fight against a better geared character. I want to get ganked by three other people and end up killing them all because I am just that freaking good. I want skill to matter and gear to be a bonus.

    That way players can truely become legendary not for being "first to" but for being epic. For fighting against all odds and winning. Until then MMOs will continue to be casual "side attractions" and stuck in the stone ages they find themselves in now.

    I will keep playing though. Its nice to have some carebear games to play too. :)

     

    Before the flaming starts this is a thought piece, I am primarily a twitch gamer, and I wonder how many like minded people are out there like me.

     

    I generally agree with all that you said, but ... time = skill ... you can't be good in street fighter or fps game from the get go (unless you've played simirial games so you already have 'time' invested into your 'skill'). Imagine a newbie guitar player and a guitar master right next to each other. They use the same weapon, the guitar. Should a newbie play at the same skill as a master or be just a little worse? No, he didn't play for 20 constant years 8 hours straight mastering his art, and no matter how skilled the newbie is, he can't achive this level of skill without time investment!

    What my point is, in current mmos time = gear + skill

     

    We lack games where gear is very small and skill is much bigger, that's why I'm waitng on this new generation of action mmos like Tera, maybe they'll change things a bit!

  • Lizard_SFLizard_SF New Albany, INPosts: 348Member

    Yawn. Someone else who thinks "skill" means "the reflexes of a mayfly on speed". ("I don't want to grind gear!" tends to translate to "I have serious ADD and just want to mash the attack button until my thumb breaks!")

    Roleplaying games are about your CHARACTER, not you. Skill in an RPG should be in making choices as to WHAT your character does, or attempts to do -- whether or not the character succeeds should be up to the character's abilities. (Said abilities being, in turn, a consequence of the choices you made as you developed the character.)

    I am not sure what the OP would want as an MMORPG. If "player skill" (twitch) is all that matters, what, exactly, do you DO that's any different from playing an FPS map? You can't quest for better gear, because "skill" is all that matters and you just mash buttons until you've developed enough "skill". You can't have real roles or character differentiation, because, again, "skill" is what matters so you can't have a "fighter" who can take more melee damage than a "wizard" because if the wizard is "skilled" enough, he can duck/weave/dodge all attacks. It seems that what the OP really wants is a massive online FPS, and I'm pretty sure there's plenty out there -- if not, there will be soon, as the up-and-coming generation tends to lack even the patience required for the easiest modern MMO.

    I'd love an MMO that really required skill -- something that used the turn based, tactical, combat modeled perhaps on the old "Gold Box" D&D games, but with cool modern graphics and a lot more choices, options, and decision points. I'd call a "perfect" MMO one which combined the ship-fitting, constantly tweaking and adjusting and rebalancing aspect of EVE ("If I upgrade the CPU, I can install this module, but then I can't mount this laser, but this other laser does slightly more damage but at a shorter range and...") with a turn based, or at least slower paced, combat system, something which owed more to chess and M:TG (not in specific details, but in the sense of strategy, tactics, thought, and planning, together with a little luck, being the key to victory). I'm aware of the technical problems of mixing turn-based combat with a free-moving open world, but I'm sure it can be done if someone thought about it a bit. Well, more than a bit, it's not simple, but it's likely not insoluble.

    And, please.. defining "Hardcore" as being a twitch gamer??? Give me an effin' break, you kids do not know what "hardcore" is. Sitting in front of your plasma screen mashing buttons is not hardcore. Playing Wizardry I on your Apple II where if your party died in the dungeon, it was DEAD FORVER -- not saved and respawned, but wiped out, finito, dead, gone, finished, 20, 30, 40 or more hours of playtime down the tubes, begin again, sucks to be you. THAT is hardcore, and I think today's whiny little twitch brats would just slit their wrists if a game did that to them. (And good bloody riddance.)

    Or tell me you've won Nethack or ADOM without cheating. Or played "Advanced Squad Leader" (a counter-and-hex wargame). Or saw your Black Lotus show up as the ante in MTG. Then I'll consider you hardcore. Until then, you're a wannabe whose "skills" could be replicated by a sufficiently well trained chimp.

    PS:Yeah, it was possible to rescue a lost party in Wizardry... but only by getting another party so powerful you could go to where the first party died, with empty slots in the party so as to be able to load up the corpses... IF you found the bodies.. and by that point, you'd just stick with the "new" party. Oh, did I mention that if you got a dead character out and had him raised, there was a chance he'd turn to ash? And while you could spend a lot of money to try a more powerful spell to raise him from ash, there was a chance THAT would fail and he'd be dead forever? Yeah. You kids are SO frackin' hardcore. Feh. Now get off of my lawn!

  • KellerKeller UtrechtPosts: 254Member

    Originally posted by BioNut

    But wait, wait!!!??!!! WoW has plenty Hardcore gamerzzz doesn't it?

    Short answer= No, mmo hardcore people are NOT hardcore gamers. That thought is laughable.

    Long answer= Hardcore gamers are people who enjoy games that require skill, not time commitment. (think street fighter, Call of Duty, japanese top down shooters).

     

     

    I disagree with that assumption. But I agree mmo's based on skill are more interesting. However tactics, teamwork and communication are also important. I like games where teamwork can beat skilled players who don't work together  (i'm not talking about zerging) or even hard to beat mobs.

     

  • RoguewizRoguewiz Lampasas, TXPosts: 614Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by orangerascal

    Originally posted by Rabenwolf

    I cannot see Starcraft falling into that category since it isnt twitch based. It does require user input, and it is real time, but it features many different challenges found in the traditional MMO.

     

    Starcraft is about as 'twitchy' as they come. It's not a coincidence that the best players in the world have APM's that hit 400+. (That's actions per minute for those not in the know). You know what 400 APM's are, its 6-7 mouseclicks/keystrokes per second. SC pro's go through a regiment that trains their eye-to-hand coordination to move that quickly. In korea you can hire coaches that improve this aspect of gameplay and these coaches are highly sought after.

    Most newbies think starcraft is just a strategy game. It's not. Yes, there are stategic elements to starcraft like using the best units to counter your oppoenents units, but even the worst counter units can stand a chance if your micro-management is very good. Also starcraft's strategy is very limited as everyone has a pretty good idea of the best units to counter other units. Thus the game ends with whomever is the better twitch player.

    -------------------------------

    As for 'skills',  'skills' come in a variety of packages including

    - group synergy

    - situation awareness

    - game knowledge

    - twitch reflexes

    - command experience

     

    Look at any professional team like spain's football team. Each player including coaches will have great expertise in one or more of the following aforementioned attributes.

     You're oversimplifying what Starcraft is.  Starcraft, on some level outside of "professional" gaming, is about getting the cheapest units out the quickest possible to overrun your opponent before they start producing more.  Thus, it is about the zerg (not the race),

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