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Anyone else not going to be satisfied with MMOs until "skill" is added into the gameplay?

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  • orangerascalorangerascal LondonPosts: 52Member

    Most people asking for skilled mmo's are usally terribads looking for another excuse to answer why they are losing. "He was better geared than me" or "there were 2 of you", these are just some of the numerous excuses they use. Wow for example has tournament servers where you can show off your 'skill', yet most people don't play on these tournament servers. Why not? If people want a skill based game it's right there. 

    P.S. If you want to play skill based games, you're looking in the wrong genre. RTS or FPS are better choices.

  • SwaneaSwanea Vegas, NVPosts: 2,368Member Uncommon

    Certain mmos out now do involve skill.  Twitch games may measure reaction times as much as they measure "skill".  Knowing when to use abilities in MMO combined with the ability to change your tactics based on what is going on is very common.

    PvPing in some MMOs involve just as much if not more skill then any other type of game.  You would just choose to ignore it since you can't lolheadshot them all the time.

    Knowing when to CC, when to stop healing to help dps, when to LoS, when to use your elite skill, when to blow cooldowns.  And again, it's not just "when", it's the ability to adapt when things are not going your way.

    Overall, sure, most MMOs might involve less "skill" then a fps.  But if you are looking for fps skill in a normal mmoRPG, you are looking at it from the wrong point of view.

  • ZarcobZarcob Philadelphia, PAPosts: 207Member

    Everytime I see a thread about games needing more "skill" I can't help but detect a thinly veiled implication.  An implication suggesting that the person asking for more said "skill" in his games believes he would melt faces for miles around with his sheer awesomeness if any MMO were simply bold enough to implement his idea.

     

    It's nice to see a thread once in a while where it's not veiled at all.

    The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.

  • ComnitusComnitus Williamsburg, VAPosts: 2,462Member

    EVE takes skill. Skill with your brain, theorycrafting skill, social skills to make friends who will back you up, skills like common sense...

    Oh, that's not the skill you were talking about, eh? Well, I hope you find an MMO to suit you. Darkfall or Mortal Online sound pretty accurate.

    image

  • jusomdudejusomdude Somewhere, KSPosts: 2,401Member

    There definetely could be some more MMOFPS games around, and not limited to 100 player areas.

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLPosts: 3,649Member

    All in all to be fair, as much as some folks may hate the whole argument about skill in games (and it could have been avoided had the OP simply just asked for more MMOFPS type games than having this particular discussion); the guy really is just looking for there to be more MMOFPS or MMOTPS games.  There really is nothing wrong with that - and if there is a market need for it - the developers should supply the games, instead of trying to do more hybrid mixes that do not satisfy anybody in the end.

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • twstdstrangetwstdstrange Walton, NYPosts: 474Member

    I think it's worth mentioning (at least in the case of WoW), that in a combat situation (on a level playing field with same level, gear level, etc.) there is a fine (yet marginal) amount of skill involving the use of Macros, timing, knowledge of cooldowns, and other such skill-based aspects. Of course, I must agree with your "I want to see the underdog win" and that sort of mentality.

    Personally I'm sick of "lololol!111killd u" players running around in the best equipment, facerolling me because they've spent countless hours playing, just because they have the time and resources, while I'm doing shift, alt, and ctrl key combonations and all that fancy stuff. It's really discouraging, to say the least.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,689Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by deniter

    Originally posted by project8six

    RPG or character building goes against skill completely. the more time invest makes your char more powerful right so that takes away the majority of the skill. level playing fields like counter strike or starcraft is where skill comes into play. time investment = win mmo

    If only we could make developers to realise that. :/

    How is it a developer problem?

    Each year games get made that fill the entire spectrum of skill.  So it's completely players' fault if they choose a game that doesn't coincide with their own desires.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • UsualSuspectUsualSuspect CardiffPosts: 1,243Member

    The thing with MMORPGs is that they originated out of PnP games, which used dice rolls to decide if you hit or miss, with bonuses depending on your characters abilities. Every game follows the same premise of having an Attack Bonus, making a random roll (usually hidden now) and comparing that to the enemy Armor Class to see if you hit. There is no skill involved, it's all about making your character the best it can be so it can face off against deadly enemies. This is where the desire for Loot comes in, as the better the loot the better your character becomes.

    The only skill in MMORPG's is based around raids and groups, where you face a much harder enemy than a single person could face, and then combine the abilities of the group into winning the combat.

    The only MMO I can think of that involved skill was the MMOFPS from Sony, Planetside, and that game did it really well. Until the balance went all wrong, I used to love playing that game, it was way too much fun. Battles with hundreds of people, including tanks, snipers, aircraft, dropships, ATV's.. it was awesome. But then, that's not an MMORPG as it was purely your ability to aim rather than any random dice roll to determine success.

  • Lille7Lille7 Ljungskile, AKPosts: 301Member

    Originally posted by maltos

    Isn't the "skill" in any RPG to optimize your character as you see fit?

    This is the idea. But it doesn't work like that in reality. Let's use World of Warcraft as an example here, in wow all you need to do to optimize your character is to go to elitist jerks and find the most optimal build for whatever task it is your performing. And voila, now you are as good as you can be, and anyone not using that same optimal build is considered a noob or an idiot.

  • KatrarKatrar Olympia, WAPosts: 168Member

    lol I really love these threads.

    Find anyone in their 30s, 40s, 50s+ who leapfrogged from Pong to Atari, to TRS-80, Apple, Commodore, and onwards. Who had to program his own games out of a magazine because there was no such thing as GameStop. Who spent countless thousands of hours glued to a monochrome screen playing the classic oldies from SirTech, Origin, Electronic Arts, SSI, and more. Who endlessly surfed "the boards" on 300 baud modems a decade or more before anyone had ever heard of "the internet". Find anyone who failed a class because he couldn't get in enough Wizardry, even after clocking four or five hundred hours on the same game. Who has bought or hand built by now his 10th or 15th gaming rig and spent more time on them then he's spent sleeping the past few decades. Find anyone who's list of finished games requires a word document broken up into chapters, separated by eras.

    Most of these people are still playing games. Their gaming is driven not by gamer scores, prizes or any other kind of public cred, their gaming is driven by their passion for gaming. Many of these people don't count "twitch" among their interests. Personally I'd say any of these people warrants the title "hard core" a hell of a lot more than some whiny self impressed "twitch gamer".

    Hard core gaming isn't about twitch. It's never been about twitch. It's about passion, the love of gaming that drives hard core gamers to choose gaming over X,Y,Z. Certainly twitch gamers can be hard core, but to suggest that only twitch gaming is hard core... well, anyone who would suggest that simply doesn't know the history of computer gamers and computer gaming.

    Personally I'd say that if you have two gamers... Gamer #1 is a twelve year old girl that spends 16 hours a day in Hello Kitty Online, and is so invested in the game that she dreams about it at night, and gamer #2 is some punk ass that spends a few hours after school every day knifing his friends in Halo, and ok he's good enough he never gets the favor returned... well, sorry twitch gamers but that twelve year old is HELLA hard core compared to you. It is what it is. lol

  • orangerascalorangerascal LondonPosts: 52Member

    Originally posted by Katrar

    Find anyone in their 30s, 40s, 50s+ who leapfrogged from Pong to Atari, to TRS-80, Apple, Commodore, and onwards. Who had to program his own games out of a magazine because there was no such thing as GameStop. Who spent countless thousands of hours glued to a monochrome screen playing the classic oldies from SirTech, Origin, Electronic Arts, SSI, and more. Who endlessly surfed "the boards" on 300 baud modems a decade or more before anyone had ever heard of "the internet".

    OMG that's me :)

  • KatrarKatrar Olympia, WAPosts: 168Member

    Originally posted by orangerascal

    Originally posted by Katrar

    Find anyone in their 30s, 40s, 50s+ who leapfrogged from Pong to Atari, to TRS-80, Apple, Commodore, and onwards. Who had to program his own games out of a magazine because there was no such thing as GameStop. Who spent countless thousands of hours glued to a monochrome screen playing the classic oldies from SirTech, Origin, Electronic Arts, SSI, and more. Who endlessly surfed "the boards" on 300 baud modems a decade or more before anyone had ever heard of "the internet".

    OMG that's me :)

    Me too =P Old gamers unite!

  • BioNutBioNut College Station, TXPosts: 414Member

    Originally posted by Zarcob

    Everytime I see a thread about games needing more "skill" I can't help but detect a thinly veiled implication.  An implication suggesting that the person asking for more said "skill" in his games believes he would melt faces for miles around with his sheer awesomeness if any MMO were simply bold enough to implement his idea.

     

    It's nice to see a thread once in a while where it's not veiled at all.

     

    Not gonna lie, give me a shooter and within 3 or 4 games I'm topping the leaderboard. My brain is just wired for FPS/TPS games I guess. I still get rofl stomped plenty of times though. :)

     

    I am also not wanting a call of duty mmo. I want more of a god of war/DMC style combat system with active blocking and counter moves.

     

    AOC almost got it right.....almost :P .

    Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3

    Waiting on: Guild Wars 2

  • BioNutBioNut College Station, TXPosts: 414Member

    Originally posted by Comnitus

    EVE takes skill. Skill with your brain, theorycrafting skill, social skills to make friends who will back you up, skills like common sense...

    Oh, that's not the skill you were talking about, eh? Well, I hope you find an MMO to suit you. Darkfall or Mortal Online sound pretty accurate.

     

    Yes, and I mentioned in my op that strategy games require skill. Eve seems like an amazing game and if it was brand new I'd play it. I am so far behind in that game that I'd never be able to compete or add anything to a coorporation now though. :(

     

    Games that don't require skill are tank n spank pve mmos and pvp games that revolve around what gear you have. I wanna see a naked level 80 take out a fully armored level 80. Give me David vs Goliath and lets make somebody a legend because he is just that good at the game.

    Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3

    Waiting on: Guild Wars 2

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,972Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by BioNut

    Originally posted by Comnitus

    EVE takes skill. Skill with your brain, theorycrafting skill, social skills to make friends who will back you up, skills like common sense...

    Oh, that's not the skill you were talking about, eh? Well, I hope you find an MMO to suit you. Darkfall or Mortal Online sound pretty accurate.

     

    Yes, and I mentioned in my op that strategy games require skill. Eve seems like an amazing game and if it was brand new I'd play it. I am so far behind in that game that I'd never be able to compete or add anything to a coorporation now though. :(

     

    Games that don't require skill are tank n spank pve mmos and pvp games that revolve around what gear you have. I wanna see a naked level 80 take out a fully armored level 80. Give me David vs Goliath and lets make somebody a legend because he is just that good at the game.

    Actually, you couldn't be more wrong.  EVE is one of the few MMO's where a new player can actually "catch up" in terms of competitiveness and become a major factor in the game even now.  But that said, it takes some time, and you won't become ruler of 0.0 in a 3-6 months, but in the course of several years you could be leading the next scourge Alliance of free space.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • BioNutBioNut College Station, TXPosts: 414Member

    Originally posted by Katrar

    lol I really love these threads.

    Find anyone in their 30s, 40s, 50s+ who leapfrogged from Pong to Atari, to TRS-80, Apple, Commodore, and onwards. Who had to program his own games out of a magazine because there was no such thing as GameStop. Who spent countless thousands of hours glued to a monochrome screen playing the classic oldies from SirTech, Origin, Electronic Arts, SSI, and more. Who endlessly surfed "the boards" on 300 baud modems a decade or more before anyone had ever heard of "the internet". Find anyone who failed a class because he couldn't get in enough Wizardry, even after clocking four or five hundred hours on the same game. Who has bought or hand built by now his 10th or 15th gaming rig and spent more time on them then he's spent sleeping the past few decades. Find anyone who's list of finished games requires a word document broken up into chapters, separated by eras.

    Most of these people are still playing games. Their gaming is driven not by gamer scores, prizes or any other kind of public cred, their gaming is driven by their passion for gaming. Many of these people don't count "twitch" among their interests. Personally I'd say any of these people warrants the title "hard core" a hell of a lot more than some whiny self impressed "twitch gamer".

    Hard core gaming isn't about twitch. It's never been about twitch. It's about passion, the love of gaming that drives hard core gamers to choose gaming over X,Y,Z. Certainly twitch gamers can be hard core, but to suggest that only twitch gaming is hard core... well, anyone who would suggest that simply doesn't know the history of computer gamers and computer gaming.

    Personally I'd say that if you have two gamers... Gamer #1 is a twelve year old girl that spends 16 hours a day in Hello Kitty Online, and is so invested in the game that she dreams about it at night, and gamer #2 is some punk ass that spends a few hours after school every day knifing his friends in Halo, and ok he's good enough he never gets the favor returned... well, sorry twitch gamers but that twelve year old is HELLA hard core compared to you. It is what it is. lol

     

    My distinction is that hardcore gamers view gaming as a quasi sport. Its about competition, they practice compete in tourneys, make teams and most of those gamers play twitch games because much like our twitch sports (football, soccer, etc) they require the most skill.

     

    You thinking I am a punk ass kid is insulting. Gaming is my passion I spend countless hours playing all types of games and I view gaming compititions like psuedo sports (I played alot of sports growing up and was very competitive).  I know wow has "seasons" for PvP and I respect that but the games could use a little more skill is all.

     

    Underdogs really can't win. It boils down to who has the best gear or the best luck because in MMOs you can only be SO good with a character because of the way they are built. You essentially play the character the way the devs want you to, there is no room for creativity or self expression.

     

    Like I said AOC really came close to delivering what I am looking for. If they had made active blocking a viable means of protecting yourself and allowed timed counters with the blocking it could have been my favorite game of all time.

    Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3

    Waiting on: Guild Wars 2

  • NeanderthalNeanderthal Posts: 1,606Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Katrar

    Originally posted by orangerascal

    Originally posted by Katrar

    Find anyone in their 30s, 40s, 50s+ who leapfrogged from Pong to Atari, to TRS-80, Apple, Commodore, and onwards. Who had to program his own games out of a magazine because there was no such thing as GameStop. Who spent countless thousands of hours glued to a monochrome screen playing the classic oldies from SirTech, Origin, Electronic Arts, SSI, and more. Who endlessly surfed "the boards" on 300 baud modems a decade or more before anyone had ever heard of "the internet".

    OMG that's me :)

    Me too =P Old gamers unite!

     Ah, I don't quite qualify.  I stopped at the TRS-80.  But I did write my own programs in BASIC for those.  Remember saving programs on cassette tapes, heh.

    Hey, do any of you remember a game in BASIC called Rakka 2 or something like that?  All text, and you were exploring a pryamid.  I liked it so much I made my own version based on the layout of my high school.

  • KenaoshiKenaoshi Porto AlegrePosts: 1,020Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by BioNut

    Long answer= Hardcore gamers are people who enjoy games that require skill, not time commitment. (think street fighter, Call of Duty, japanese top down shooters).

     

    And to be good on anything you must practice, and for that people DO spend lots of time on it, planning, try and error, so that "skill" comes with time commitment.

    So "in suma" none here will be satisfied with any game, none wanna have an adventure, just WIN and show off their e-peens.

    now: GW2 (11 80s).
    Dark Souls 2.
    future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
    "Bro, do your even fractal?"
    Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.

  • BioNutBioNut College Station, TXPosts: 414Member

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Originally posted by BioNut


    Originally posted by Comnitus

    EVE takes skill. Skill with your brain, theorycrafting skill, social skills to make friends who will back you up, skills like common sense...

    Oh, that's not the skill you were talking about, eh? Well, I hope you find an MMO to suit you. Darkfall or Mortal Online sound pretty accurate.

     

    Yes, and I mentioned in my op that strategy games require skill. Eve seems like an amazing game and if it was brand new I'd play it. I am so far behind in that game that I'd never be able to compete or add anything to a coorporation now though. :(

     

    Games that don't require skill are tank n spank pve mmos and pvp games that revolve around what gear you have. I wanna see a naked level 80 take out a fully armored level 80. Give me David vs Goliath and lets make somebody a legend because he is just that good at the game.

    Actually, you couldn't be more wrong.  EVE is one of the few MMO's where a new player can actually "catch up" in terms of competitiveness and become a major factor in the game even now.  But that said, it takes some time, and you won't become ruler of 0.0 in a 3-6 months, but in the course of several years you could be leading the next scourge Alliance of free space.

     

    I bought the game on steam a week ago and I intend to play it because the thought provoking nature of the system intreagues me.  From what I here large battles are sort of like chess matches and I consider that skillful.

    Really I wasn't including Eve like games in my rant.  I should have been more specific and stating mainstream MMO games bother me (WoW, LotRO, AOC,etc) not some of the more niche (even though eves pop is impressive I hear) games.

    I had hope that SWTOR would be Jedi Knight the MMO but unfortunately it will not. Doesn't mean I wont spend 1000 hours playing it though :P.

    Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3

    Waiting on: Guild Wars 2

  • GiosyncGiosync Shorewood, MNPosts: 108Member

    Here is how you get skill in an MMO: everyone has the same health, the same access to EVERYTHING and has the exact same damage output. Leaves for little in terms of customization or progression, ultimately making it so by day one, you can be bored to hell with the MMO. I like how current MMOs work, time based, because it's like this: I spend more time on it, so I should be better than other people at it because my character has seen more action, got more experience with the world of that game and ultimately improved himself greatly since he started.

    I'm free on Friday.

  • HhusskHhussk City of Heroes Correspondent Somewhere, AKPosts: 219Member

    Just wanted to make a hearty attempt to answer the title of the thread.

     

    What dissatisfies me more than anything else about the MMORPG is the "RPG". There's no real attempt to implement true roleplaying in the roleplaying mmo.

    Sure, you might think all those cute and cuddly carebear people, with their "emotes" and dancing, are roleplayers; in truth, they aren't anymore than anyone else. What's missing, in my opinion, is a system that influences players to accomodate roleplay to acheive their goals.

    For example, in your typical MMO, you can pretty much (attempt to) kill anyone you come across. What stops you? There is no justice system; you do not go to jail. Your possessions aren't taken. And what happens when you die? Nothing much, maybe 15 minutes of weakness, perhaps? There's no sense of proportion.

    If a game was going to influence the RP, you wouldn't go around killing other players unless you could, strategically, work out a situation where it was plausible. In the days of AD&D, the ancient grandfather of the MMORPG, battle was only one part of the game. There was diplomacy, research, secret societies, dark magics with equally bad consequences.

    The style of society in MMORPGs is basically clans and guilds. The city/realm/kingdom aspect, where laws and legislation dictate justice, barely exists.

    Ah well; this comment is twice as long as I wanted and half as long as I needed. Let me just say this; many of you have never, and might never, see and feel the true aspects of roleplaying in an MMORPG. If you think there needs to be more "skill", I respect your wishes, but feel that's the wrong direction to go. Once you delve into "skill", you're usually talking about maneuvering and jump/firing while in combat. And at that point, it becomes a matter of your ping rate.

    Ping...

    -----------------------------
    Blog -Transcendent''s Tomb - Reviews, Polls, and tortured opinions from the minions of MMORPGS

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    http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Hhussk

  • MrbloodworthMrbloodworth Newport News, VAPosts: 5,615Member

    RPG players don't want skill in games, they want to "win" constiantly and chase gear. If this was not true, MMOFPS games would be more popular.

    ----------
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  • BigMangoBigMango BrightonPosts: 1,821Member

    Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

    RPG players don't want skill in games, they want to "win" constiantly and chase gear. If this was not true, MMOFPS games would be more popular.

     

    +1

    AoC is a good example of how a game lacking gear progression can fail. Funcom had the same illusions as the OP, but after everyone was leaving the boat they had to change it to gear progession to get their players back.

    mmoRPG players need progression, something to look out for.

  • RabenwolfRabenwolf Los Angeles, CAPosts: 1,445Member

    Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

    RPG players don't want skill in games, they want to "win" constiantly and chase gear. If this was not true, MMOFPS games would be more popular.

     

    I hope you do not actually believe that. I would assume by definition, RPG players want DEPTH. Challenges that include everything from micromanagement to Identification and reaction challenges. A game is only created through rulesets that result in challenges, the types of challenges present define the genre.

     

    I guess what I would have to ask the OP of this thread is...how do you define skill? is it player skill vs character skill? is twitch vs intelligent play? what kind of challenges are you associating with skill?

    The fact that the OP claims that mmorpgs that are not "twitch" based are some how not for hardcore gamers, or even skill based... says a lot about their understanding of design and modes of play. I could counter argue that player skill without character skill (items, stats, levels, abilities) results in reactionary play rather than intelligent play. One would assume intelligent play is the most valued skill to have in any game.

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