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Rebuttal to Argument: I like cash shops because my time is money!

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  • kb4blukb4blu Fuquay Varina, NCPosts: 683Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by zymurgeist

     

     Unfortunately the wallets speaking loudest are those that don't care if their actions lead to all MMOs becoming crap.

     This has my vote for the post of the year.

    Of course you can pay me money and I will vote for another post.

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Koolawachie, SCPosts: 14,495Member

    Originally posted by kb4blu

    Originally posted by zymurgeist

     

     Unfortunately the wallets speaking loudest are those that don't care if their actions lead to all MMOs becoming crap.

     This has my vote for the post of the year.

    Of course you can pay me money and I will vote for another post.

    Here you go.

    Sure, it's just pixels, but hey, people spend money on pixels in F2P games all the time, so what's the difference?

     

    image

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,462Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by qombi

    I don't care how much time you think you are saving by buying pixels.

    hmmm, I keep seeing people try to use this idea that "pixels" aren't anything of substance therefore they should treated in perhaps some other manner? I'm not sure.

    Why make the differentiation other than to trivialize it in the face of an arguement?

    Why play video games in the first place as they are just pixels? Same with movies? why buy music as they are just sound waves.

    The "buying" of pixels is just as real as buying a movie, buying a video game, buying music. it is a visual representation of something and in the context of a game world that representation has value.

    As far as whether or not people should not play games if they don't have the time, I hallf agree.

    If the game is a "harder" game (whatever that means) then so be it. If players dont' like it then move on.

    but since game companies are adding cash shops as "added value" the point is moot. There is a market and they are filling the market. Players don't need to reconsider whether they should be playing games when game makers/businesses have recognized the market and are rushing to fill it.

    How they do this is another thing entirely. However, since players have been using real world money to purchase things in video games regardless of the inclusion of a cash shop, people have proven that there is a market outside of developer approved virtual items.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,462Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    Originally posted by kb4blu


    Originally posted by zymurgeist

     

     Unfortunately the wallets speaking loudest are those that don't care if their actions lead to all MMOs becoming crap.

     This has my vote for the post of the year.

    Of course you can pay me money and I will vote for another post.

    Here you go.

    Sure, it's just pixels, but hey, people spend money on pixels in F2P games all the time, so what's the difference?

     

    what? do you think that when you transfer money from one accuont to another or from one institution to another they go to some box in a basement, count out actual paper and move it?

    What you have there is a representation of a one hundred dollar bill. Paper money (at least when it started being used) was the circulated medium for the gold and silver standard.

    and as I've said, people need to reasses value in "pixels" as it has as much real value as an actual paper note. meaning that if the people who have the item in question believe in its value and the backer of that item have established a value then it has value.

    but again, if you question the value of pixles then you might also question the value of going to the movies or music.

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by qombi

     






    Originally posted by Mehve

    And what about the P2P's that deliberately stretch their grind out so you'll subscribe for another month?

    Honestly, this "rebuttal" applies just as much to some P2P games as it does to some cash-shop games. The difference is that paying $15/month in the cash-shop game can get you a reduced grind so you can spend more time playing the more enjoyable parts, whereas your $15/month for some P2P's still leaves you at square one against the grind.

    But yes, as always, nothing changes until we speak with our wallets.




    You are exactly right it would apply to what you said as well. I agree, if you don't like how long a p2p game takes as well definitely quit it. I do not support games I do not enjoy. I definitely will not pay extra in an item shop to skip a game I do not have time to play or want to play parts of.

    ALL consumer products and services EVOLVE depending on outside influences.. If demands change, therefore the company must change with it.  Sounds to me what your'e saying is that companies are not allow to change their products, or services or how they do business because YOU said so..  It is YOUR belief that you will not pay into cash shops.. That is your option.. However, not everyone has to go thru LIFE as you do..

    This is about as silly as me asking people to not pay $10 a ticket for a movie when it first come out because " I " don't believe in it's value..  Some people view grinding in a game the same as "waiting" in line.. If  one can pay extra to spring ahead in line.. OH WELL..  Can I offer some of your advice back at you.. Obviously you do not agree with people who use cash shops.. so why are YOU SUPPORTING the company that does business with them? 

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,462Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Rydeson

     Some people view grinding in a game the same as "waiting" in line.. If  one can pay extra to spring ahead in line.. OH WELL.. 

    There is already a real world example of that. Peterpan buslines has it so that a person can pay an additional fee and can get on the bus before a person who was in line first. I believe it's called priority seating.

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Koolawachie, SCPosts: 14,495Member

    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp


    Originally posted by kb4blu


    Originally posted by zymurgeist

     

     Unfortunately the wallets speaking loudest are those that don't care if their actions lead to all MMOs becoming crap.

     This has my vote for the post of the year.

    Of course you can pay me money and I will vote for another post.

    Here you go.

    Sure, it's just pixels, but hey, people spend money on pixels in F2P games all the time, so what's the difference?

     

    what? do you think that when you transfer money from one accuont to another or from one institution to another they go to some box in a basement, count out actual paper and move it?

    What you have there is a representation of a one hundred dollar bill. Paper money (at least when it started being used) was the circulated medium for the gold and silver standard.

    and as I've said, people need to reasses value in "pixels" as it has as much real value as an actual paper note. meaning that if the people who have the item in question believe in its value and the backer of that item have established a value then it has value.

    but again, if you question the value of pixles then you might also question the value of going to the movies or music.

     

    It's a joke. Don't be so serious all the time. Read the original post. The guy is talking about changning his vote for money. On a forum. Where nobody gives a shit who he votes for. So I'm offering him what his vote is worth. Nothing.

    image

  • DerWotanDerWotan NorrathPosts: 1,012Member
    Its so damn easy yet some F2P fans fail to understand it.

    MMORPGs are a virtual world so the opposite of real life stuff. Skill & time should decide who you are in the game, using your creditcart and supporting guys like Kotick means you are as evil as him (probably even more), that simple. P2P and P2W people are the most different mindsets you can find so mixing both up will lead to disaster. Just look at the reactions this gay horse forced, people become kicked out of guilds, groups, flamed well next time better think about buying such crap in a P2P game.

    I've always wondered myself why studios didn't use their lawyers forcing RMT sites to shut down...

    We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!

    "Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
    "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,594Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by qombi

     






    Originally posted by zeowyrm

    If, as you say, games are entertainment, wth do you care how we enjoy them?




    The thing is you are not enjoying the games. You are paying for the game, expansions, monthly fee if any, and then paying extra to skip the game. Apparently you didn't have time to read the whole post or you would realize this post was meant to show if you didn't buy into this, you would get the games you want without these grinds and time constraints you want to buy your way through.

    Keep buying in that cash shop, you are only hurting yourself.

    But I am enjoying the games I play. Other wise I'd not play them. P2P, F2P or some hybrid doesn't matter to me as long as they are entertaining. I have no problem with Dev's of games I enjoy makiing money from their years of hard work.  I use the cash shop in games I enjoy,  so that the games Dev's make a profit.  If you do not like F2P games, don't play them. Its really just that simple.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,462Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    Originally posted by Sovrath


    Originally posted by Ihmotepp


    Originally posted by kb4blu


    Originally posted by zymurgeist

     

     Unfortunately the wallets speaking loudest are those that don't care if their actions lead to all MMOs becoming crap.

     This has my vote for the post of the year.

    Of course you can pay me money and I will vote for another post.

    Here you go.

    Sure, it's just pixels, but hey, people spend money on pixels in F2P games all the time, so what's the difference?

     

    what? do you think that when you transfer money from one accuont to another or from one institution to another they go to some box in a basement, count out actual paper and move it?

    What you have there is a representation of a one hundred dollar bill. Paper money (at least when it started being used) was the circulated medium for the gold and silver standard.

    and as I've said, people need to reasses value in "pixels" as it has as much real value as an actual paper note. meaning that if the people who have the item in question believe in its value and the backer of that item have established a value then it has value.

    but again, if you question the value of pixles then you might also question the value of going to the movies or music.

     

    It's a joke. Don't be so serious all the time. Read the original post. The guy is talking about changning his vote for money. On a forum. Where nobody gives a shit who he votes for. So I'm offering him what his vote is worth. Nothing.

    lol, well ok.

    yeah I can be a bit earnest. ok carry on. if you want to give out "real" hundreds I'll be here all night.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    The thing is you are not enjoying the games. You are paying for the game, expansions, monthly fee if any, and then paying extra to skip the game. Apparently you didn't have time to read the whole post or you would realize this post was meant to show if you didn't buy into this, you would get the games you want without these grinds and time constraints you want to buy your way through.

    Keep buying in that cash shop, you are only hurting yourself.

    This is the most illogical post i have read. You assume every part of the game is the same. What if I skip the boring parts and get the fun parts?

    A game .. ultimately .. is about being fun & entertaining. It is OBVIOUS that not every single activity in the game provides the same amount of fun.

    In fact, in the old days of EQ, people have to stare at a STATIC spellbook to regen mana and i bet many would pay money to skip THAT PART of the game. Thank god that was eliminated in modern games.

    The "skipping" that you are talking about .. is merely a device to let players decide what part of the game that they want to spend more time on. In the name of fun, that is a GOOD thing.

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,594Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by kb4blu

    Originally posted by zymurgeist

     

     Unfortunately the wallets speaking loudest are those that don't care if their actions lead to all MMOs becoming crap.

     This has my vote for the post of the year.

    Of course you can pay me money and I will vote for another post.

    I love the wonders of private enterprise ^^ 

    Some MMO's have always been crap.  The 4/5's rule applies to just about any human activity.  Not to mention that one mans junk is anothers treasure.  The market trends we are seeing are not random.  There is obviously market demand for the types of games we see.  The fact that some do not like them, is just the nature of such things.

  • qombiqombi Unknown, LAPosts: 1,180Member

    Originally posted by Reklaw

    Originally posted by kaiser3282

    Originally posted by madeux

    Originally posted by qombi

     






    Originally posted by zeowyrm

    If, as you say, games are entertainment, wth do you care how we enjoy them?




    The thing is you are not enjoying the games. You are paying for the game, expansions, monthly fee if any, and then paying extra to skip the game. Apparently you didn't have time to read the whole post or you would realize this post was meant to show if you didn't buy into this, you would get the games you want without these grinds and time constraints you want to buy your way through.

    Keep buying in that cash shop, you are only hurting yourself.

     

    Part of the game is fun.  Part of it isn't.  If someone wants to pay in order to skip the un-fun portions, so they can spend more time doing the fun portions, how is that hurting you?

     ^^^ THIS

    You dont need to find every single aspect and every single second spent in the game to be fun or enjoyable to like the game overall. And your argument about skipping to the last 10 minutes of the movie are ridiculous. There is no point to a movie other than to get the story, where in a game there are dozens of other things to do besides paying attention to the story (most of which you dont need to know a single thing about the story to do), especially when the story isnt that good or you just dont care for story. If all i cared about was a story, i would go watch a movie or read a book. Im here to play the game and have fun, so if i dont want to waste hours and hours doing something that i dont feel is worth my time, and can pay a measly few bucks to get past it, then yeah ill take that route rather than putting myself through doing something i dont want to do.

     I feel this is what OP means excactly, you pay for a extra service to "skip parts you don't like" instead of trying to convince developers to change those part you don't like into things you might like, but aslong people will keep paying to so-called "skip the parts they don't like for extra cash" so will developers continue to put stuff in your way so that you WILL pay the extra cash to skip it again. Obviously no game can be 100% pure fun there are always elements that some might not find fun and some might find fun.

    Unfortunaly I think many simply don't see that and for some reason asume that OP or maybe even me want everyone to play or have fun the way I or OP might want to have fun, yet this topic aint about that, it's about trying to let people see it differently.

    The only thing I and anyone would care about would be a fun game experiance, yet we keep seeing people using the excuse to skip the unfun part by using cashshops, not knowing that this gives developers the tools to create more "unfun" things in their games cause they have found the new "excuse crowed" who will pay them extra to skip the unfun parts instead of taking a stand to make developers think twice instead of putting in unfun stuff to create something more fun.

    Unfortunaly I have seen that many things in a MMORPG seems to be considered unfun to many people who play these games, kinda the reason why this genre has become pretty limited in options and only slightly go beyond regular multiplayer games. Cause whooohooo we still have the people that will continue to play those games even with unfun stuff in it cause YAY! they will pay regardless to skip it.

    And to the person saying he doesn't care about the "next person" I think many of us would agree, I don't care how much money some player puts in a game, all I care for is if the game is fun to play for myself, but there is no denying it does hurt this industry seeing the "excuse crowed" playing it. If only for developers giving them more tools to put unfun stuff in their itemmall games.

     Thank you for understanding my post. : ) I am all for the MMO players. It is hard for me to understand that some people feel this is an attack on them personally when I am only showing how cash shops prevent the correction of the unfun elements in the games they choose.

    People should expect more for their dollar, you should not need to pay more to skip part of what you are paying for to begin with.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon

    If you are happy with cash shops you are what I think of as a ‘fashionista’. You think MMO’s are like going down to the mall and trying on your new clothes, then its time to purchase them at the counter.


     


    If you are not happy with cash shops you are what I think of as a ‘sportsman’. You think MMO’s are about level playing fields and personnel achievement.


     


    The conclusion you can draw from this is that the gameplay models do not mix, they are an antithesis of one another. DDO and Lotro are hybrid revenue models which seek to square this circle but it is impossible to do so. You are going to lose the sportsman to gain the fashionistas, no two ways about that.

  • ThebozzThebozz Canton, OHPosts: 116Member

    While there are benefits to both the P2P system and the F2P system, I feel the hybrid system found in DDO is perfect at least for a game like DDO. 

    The benefit of the P2P system is that everyone has the entire game available to them and can do the same things without paying extra.  This sounds great in theory.  The problem is that it completely benefits the person that plays the most.  If one person plays the game like it is his job (40 hours a week) and can experience all the content the game has to offer in 6 months then if he chooses he can quit and fins something new.  In this case the game cost him a total of $50 box + (5 x $15) (first month free) = $125 for all the content in the game.  Now the person that plays 5 hours a week would take 8 times as long to experience all the content. So in 6 months he has experienced 1/8 the content and payed the same amount as the first guy.

    In the F2P model of say DDO.  The person that subscribes and plays 40 hours a week sees all the content in the same amount of time as the person doing so in P2P. He doesn't have to buy a box though unless he did at launch when it was P2P so he spends $90 for all the content in 6 months.  Now take the guy that plays 5 hours a week in this model.  He could easily play the entire first month without spending a dime or redoing content too many times.  Then he could spend probably $10 a month on additional content to keep him busy without having to grind the same dungeon over and over.  He still probably only gets through 1/8 of all the content at this point but he only spent $50 at most.  This sounds like it makes more sense to me than having to pay a full subscription if you do not have a large amount of time to play games.  Likely in order to experience all the content the guy using the cash shop still will have to spend more, but he can spend it at the rate he wants.  What is wrong with this system?  Because the casual gamer doesnt have to spend as much as you on a monthly basis?

    Personally I would be happy if P2P went to an hourly rate up to a limit and a flat rate after that.  Something like up to 40 hours a month pay $15/40=37.5 cents per/hour and after 40 hours a month pay the flat $15 rate.

    The other benefit of F2P over P2P is at launch with the F2P model you can try the game and find out if you like it without wasting money.  Sure P2P eventually all offer a free trial, but not at launch.  So if I want to try a new P2P game I spend $50 on a box, don't like it, try another new one, spend $50 on a box, etc.  If I try a F2P and don't like it I spent $0.

  • TazlorTazlor NYC, NYPosts: 864Member

    i don't get it,  are you against or for the cash shop?  the title makes it seem like you're for cash shops but then some of your replies make it seem like you're against them.

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member

    Originally posted by Tazlor

    i don't get it,  are you against or for the cash shop?  the title makes it seem like you're for cash shops but then some of your replies make it seem like you're against them.

     He says this is his rebuttal to the argument so why would you think he is for them by that title?

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member

    Originally posted by DerWotan

    Its so damn easy yet some F2P fans fail to understand it. MMORPGs are a virtual world so the opposite of real life stuff. Skill & time should decide who you are in the game, using your creditcart and supporting guys like Kotick means you are as evil as him (probably even more), that simple. P2P and P2W people are the most different mindsets you can find so mixing both up will lead to disaster. Just look at the reactions this gay horse forced, people become kicked out of guilds, groups, flamed well next time better think about buying such crap in a P2P game. I've always wondered myself why studios didn't use their lawyers forcing RMT sites to shut down...

    Who died and gave you the right to define what MMOs are?  This is just another case of an individual taking their personal views and imposing them on everyone because they think their way is the only right way and everyone else can go to hell.

    You don't like RMTs?  Don't play those games.  Wow, that was easy, wasn't it?

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon

    I am still alive so my definition of what a MMO is still stands. :)

    RMT's are going to be in every computer game we play soon, they are spreading throughout MMO's and now more and more solo ganes have an online aspect.  The next step after you go online with a lobby  is some sort of 'social club' then the rmt's. Pets and extra content first, then the game altering microtransactions.

    You will have no option to play a game that does not have RMT's in about two years time on my guestimation.

  • fnorgbyfnorgby berkeley, CAPosts: 158Member

    Originally posted by Scot


    If you are happy with cash shops you are what I think of as a ‘fashionista’. You think MMO’s are like going down to the mall and trying on your new clothes, then its time to purchase them at the counter.


     


    If you are not happy with cash shops you are what I think of as a ‘sportsman’. You think MMO’s are about level playing fields and personnel achievement.


     


    The conclusion you can draw from this are that the gameplay models do not mix, they are an antithesis of one another. DDO and Lotro are hybrid revenue models which seek to square this circle but it is impossible to do so. You are going to lose the sportsman to gain the fashionistas, no two ways about that.

     

    See this is the problem with your line of thinking.  I like F2Ps.  I don't care what my toon looks like, as a general rule.  If I spend money, it's usually for some convenience item.

    You've got some poorly-formed idea that all players should fit into box A or box B.  You (or at least the OP) has pre-formed ideas about how people in box B are hurting themselves by spending money the way they spend it.

    But people don't fit into simple categories like you're assuming they do.  I play F2Ps mostly because they're FREE.  I spend less money than I would in a subscription game.  As someone earlier pointed out, when I DO spend money, it sends a message to the dev "Do more of that stuff.  Me likey".  In a sub-only game, I don't have a way to "vote with my wallet" on specific types of content -- it's all or nothing.

    Ultimately, it comes down to this:  It's not your job to tell me whether I'm having fun, or to tell me how to spend my money.  If you think MY spending choices are hurting YOU, I understand that.  If you think you need to tell me that MY choices are hurting ME... I say "stop doing me favors".  STFU and mind your own bidness.  I'm happy with how things are.

     

    I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Koolawachie, SCPosts: 14,495Member

    Originally posted by Scot


    If you are happy with cash shops you are what I think of as a ‘fashionista’. You think MMO’s are like going down to the mall and trying on your new clothes, then its time to purchase them at the counter.


     


    If you are not happy with cash shops you are what I think of as a ‘sportsman’. You think MMO’s are about level playing fields and personnel achievement.


     


    The conclusion you can draw from this are that the gameplay models do not mix, they are an antithesis of one another. DDO and Lotro are hybrid revenue models which seek to square this circle but it is impossible to do so. You are going to lose the sportsman to gain the fashionistas, no two ways about that.

     

    I agree. The two will never understand each other. The fashionista can't understand the "level playing field" concept. you can buy stuff too, so how is the playing field not level?

    The sportsman will never be comfortable playing the mall game. Why would I play a game where I buy the content instead of earning it?

    image

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by Scot

    I am still alive so my definition of what a MMO is still stands. :)

    RMT's are going to be in every computer game we play soon, they are spreading throughout MMO's and now more and more solo ganes have an online aspect.  The next step after you go online with a lobby  is some sort of 'social club' then the rmt's. Pets and extra content first, then the game altering microtransactions.

    You will have no option to play a game that does not have RMT's in about two years time on my guestimation.

     

    Personally i have no problem with RMT. I always have a choice of what to buy and what not.

    For those who cannot stand RMT, find another hobby. There are more entertainment in the world then just video games.

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Koolawachie, SCPosts: 14,495Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

     

    Personally i have no problem with RMT. I always have a choice of what to buy and what not.

    For those who cannot stand RMT, find another hobby. There are more entertainment in the world then just video games.

     

    So you believe people should not be allowed to play MMORPGs, unless they like the same payment model you do. Interesting.

    image

  • EdliEdli TiranaPosts: 941Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    For those who cannot stand RMT, find another hobby. There are more entertainment in the world then just video games.

     

    oh no we're not. Waiting for tor, ffxiv and tera actually.

  • GrumpyMel2GrumpyMel2 Catskills, NYPosts: 1,832Member

    Originally posted by zeowyrm

    If, as you say, games are entertainment, wth do you care how we enjoy them?

    We don't...unless it impacts us....which unfortunately it does...as Developers change our games to cater to your preferences.

    It's like trying to play baseball on a field....when a ton of new people come along and start playing football on the same field.

     

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