If, as you say, games are entertainment, wth do you care how we enjoy them?
The thing is you are not enjoying the games. You are paying for the game, expansions, monthly fee if any, and then paying extra to skip the game. Apparently you didn't have time to read the whole post or you would realize this post was meant to show if you didn't buy into this, you would get the games you want without these grinds and time constraints you want to buy your way through.
Keep buying in that cash shop, you are only hurting yourself.
Again, if I'm enjoying the game my way, who the hell are you to tell me I'm not doing it right?
Don't you see? You're only allowed to enjoy a game in the exact same way that he is. He clearly states that you are not enjoying the game, so it must be true!
I see you have no arguments so you result to fear tactics or lies. You still have failed to tell me how buying items from a shop to skip unfun parts of the game (as many people here described not me) is better than the company fixing the unfun parts.
If you purchase items from an item shop to avoid playing the "unfun" parts of these mmos, then you are yourself telling the corporations that it is okay to make unfun parts of a game and charge me more money to skip them. If leave games you find are unfun, then corporations either go bankrupt because their product isn't a fun game or they correct the unfun parts of the game.
I only pointed out buying the items to pass up the unfun parts is only hurting yourself. You are saying "I like to play games that I find parts of boring, I will buy my way through these parts with my wallet" I don't know about you but I would rather have a game I enjoyed playing through. When I was a kid when you played a nintendo game and found that you hit a part of the game that was designed unfun, you didn't play any longer and didn't tell you friends how great the game was.
Again youre still assuming that everyone enjoys the same things or something. Some people may find stuff like grinding fun and entertaining and dont mind it at all, others cant stand even the slightest grind. But grind is not the sole featur eof a game.
Ive used this example in the past... RF Online:
Horribly grindy game to level up (nobody in the game right now is even at level cap last i checked on the official servers). Most of us wish that the grind could be skipped (I once had a friend who was stuck at level 49 for something like 3 months cause of the terrible grind, and then losing XP upon death and not having the money to buy XP replacement pills). But the game does offer some great PvP on a very large scale that very few other games do, and thats what most people play it for. But there are those who do enjoy the grind, and to them the game is perfect. That doesnt mean the rest of us should quit playing it because we dont enjoy that aspect of the game.
the facts seem to be clear. these companies are in this for a profit.. no one is argueing against that, no one has a problem with that. but that is the inherent problem with F2P games, they need to make a profit. no profit, no expansions or patches. to do this they need to either program ways to "encourage" u to spend money in their shops, or sell advertisments in game. if they end up "nerfing" our XP gains or "tightening up" drops, then i think it becomes more of a blackmail scenario, and i dont want pop ups in any game i'm trying to play... i would rather pay the monthly fee, so i can demand content quality and good service from the company and not hear them complain they can't deliver those because of bottom line issues
My main point is the f2p model with a cash shop leads to temptation to produce games that are required to be unfun so that you WILL buy items to pass bad game design. Do we really want to encourage this behaviour? Would we rather not have game developers have sub fees only or other models to where if a game is designed badly they have to fix it to keep you playing instead of purposely designing poor gameplay? Something to think about.
Besides that you can't buy gameplay. Either you play a game or you don't.
I think that's a bit of a straw man argument. Fact is, if a game isn't fun, people won't play it, regardless of whether its P2P or F2P. Look at AoC's launch, WAR, CO, STO etc.
Me, I approach gaming the same way I approach every other entertainment form out there. If I like it, I spend money on it. For instance, I'm a Green Day fan. Have been since 92. I own every album in CD form. Are all the songs good? Oh god no, they have some real shitbombs. But, the odds are good that I'll like most of the songs, so I invest in the CDs. I like Tim Burton movies. Are they all good? Heavens no. Personally, little sick of seeing Depp in them. But I still buy them because overall, I enjoy his work. Same goes for games. I liked WoW. Yeah, the community was shitty, the gearscore elitism is rampant and a trained monkey can get to 80. But I liked it, and I was willing to pay to support it.
As far as LOTRO goes, I'm actually a little apprehensive on how this changeover is going to work. If it works, great, I'll spend money in the cash shop. If not, I'll move on to something else to spend money on. I dunno, maybe it's because I have some disposable income that I don't mind spending money on a game. But I don't mind it, whether it be a sub or a cash shop, if the game is worth playing, it's worth paying for.
the facts seem to be clear. these companies are in this for a profit.. no one is argueing against that, no one has a problem with that. but that is the inherent problem with F2P games, they need to make a profit. no profit, no expansions or patches. to do this they need to either program ways to "encourage" u to spend money in their shops, or sell advertisments in game. if they end up "nerfing" our XP gains or "tightening up" drops, then i think it becomes more of a blackmail scenario, and i dont want pop ups in any game i'm trying to play... i would rather pay the monthly fee, so i can demand content quality and good service from the company and not hear them complain they can't deliver those because of bottom line issues
My main point is the f2p model with a cash shop leads to temptation to produce games that are required to be unfun so that you WILL buy items to pass bad game design. Do we really want to encourage this behaviour? Would we rather not have game developers have sub fees only or other models to where if a game is designed badly they have to fix it to keep you playing instead of purposely designing poor gameplay? Something to think about.
Besides that you can't buy gameplay. Either you play a game or you don't.
I think that's a bit of a straw man argument. Fact is, if a game isn't fun, people won't play it, regardless of whether its P2P or F2P. Look at AoC's launch, WAR, CO, STO etc.
Me, I approach gaming the same way I approach every other entertainment form out there. If I like it, I spend money on it. For instance, I'm a Green Day fan. Have been since 92. I own every album in CD form. Are all the songs good? Oh god no, they have some real shitbombs. But, the odds are good that I'll like most of the songs, so I invest in the CDs. I like Tim Burton movies. Are they all good? Heavens no. Personally, little sick of seeing Depp in them. But I still buy them because overall, I enjoy his work. Same goes for games. I liked WoW. Yeah, the community was shitty, the gearscore elitism is rampant and a trained monkey can get to 80. But I liked it, and I was willing to pay to support it.
As far as LOTRO goes, I'm actually a little apprehensive on how this changeover is going to work. If it works, great, I'll spend money in the cash shop. If not, I'll move on to something else to spend money on. I dunno, maybe it's because I have some disposable income that I don't mind spending money on a game. But I don't mind it, whether it be a sub or a cash shop, if the game is worth playing, it's worth paying for.
On one hand, this is kind of funny - because it goes against what you previously said. On the other hand, this is kind of funny - because it goes with what you previously said.
In the end, it all leans more toward the my money more than it does the skipping...
...oh and as far as the how does this hurt those that do not F2P?
In the end, it will force them to spend more money than they are with a sub if a sub is even available in a F2P game than they would have without it being F2P. Companies do not go F2P to make less money than they were on a P2P model...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I paid 1000€ for my PC, I pay 15€ monthly for my online connection, I paid 50€ for the game and I pay a monthly subscription fee of 15€ to use the servers, just like you.
Why do you care if I pay an extra 5€ per month to skip parts of the game I do not like?
Why do you attach such a low value to your time that you end up forcing yourself to play parts of the game that are no fun?
About your film analogy: I am sure you would fast forward if a 10 second scene is repeated without reason in a loop for a few minutes.
--- Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
This argument has always sounded silly to me. Games are purchased to be played as entertainment. They are not like your mother making you eat vegetables. You are not forced to buy them. I don't care how much time you think you are saving by buying pixels. Why do it in the first place? Think of all the time you would save by not even buying the game, then you wouldn't have pay someone else so you don't have to play it.
If you are so concerned about how much your time is worth, why did you buy the game if you knew this? Games are a waste of time, they are a form of entertainment. You should also start buying movies and only watching the last 10 minutes to "save" your precious time. You should pay for cable TV and not watch it to "save" your precious time. Maybe you can find a service that you can pay money for to have people give you a brief summary of what the movie or show was about.
That seems like something these guys would argue for. Who has time to waste on actually watching the movies or shows when someone can summarize if for a fee? It would make too much sense to maybe not buy the movies, cable TV, or games you do not have time to watch or play, or perhaps purchase games that are designed for a person with your precious time constraints that you don't have to buy your way out of having to actually play it.
Have you ever though of that? Have you ever thought that when you buy from these shops to make up for these time constraints you have you only encourage these type of long hour games to continue? Instead of fixing these perceived time issues in these games, you are telling these companies "Hey! I like that these games take longer than I have time to play, I would actually pay you more to skip some of it! Just think about that for a moment before you respond. If enough people are really concerned with how long these games take to accomplish things in or how long it takes to "grind", then don't buy them.
If these games do not sell, I promise they will stop being produced. You don't have to pay extra for items in a shop to make up for a game's short falls.
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I paid 1000€ for my PC, I pay 15€ monthly for my online connection, I paid 50€ for the game and I pay a monthly subscription fee of 15€ to use the servers, just like you.
Why do you care if I pay an extra 5€ per month to skip parts of the game I do not like?
Why do you attach such a low value to your time that you end up forcing yourself to play parts of the game that are no fun?
About your film analogy: I am sure you would fast forward if a 10 second scene is repeated without reason in a loop for a few minutes.
Why are parts of the game no fun? Why won't the parts of the game that are no fun ever be fixed? Why would you pay them not to fix the parts of the game that are no fun?
Not all parts of all games will be fun for all people. It's impossible to balance for each individual playing.
Why are parts of the game no fun? Why won't the parts of the game that are no fun ever be fixed? Why would you pay them not to fix the parts of the game that are no fun?
The level of entertainment a part of the game provides is subjective and dependend on the player himself. I absolutly hate repetition, others love it. I love to play the challenging parts, others just want easy and fast rewards.
In other words: A game part will provide different levels of entertainment to different people. The game is neither broken or flawed and doesn't need any fixing.
In most cases MMOs are just a linear sequence of parts. Whats the problem with me skipping the parts I do not like and you skipping other parts you do not like? MMOs are not competitive after all.
--- Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Originally posted by Inf666 I paid 1000 for my PC, I pay 15 monthly for my online connection, I paid 50 for the game and I pay a monthly subscription fee of 15 to use the servers, just like you. Why do you care if I pay an extra 5 per month to skip parts of the game I do not like? Why do you attach such a low value to your time that you end up forcing yourself to play parts of the game that are no fun? About your film analogy: I am sure you would fast forward if a 10 second scene is repeated without reason in a loop for a few minutes.
If that is how you feel about the current games, with your film analogy why do you support these games? If you were smart, you would vote with your wallet for games that do not require you to "fast forward if a 10 second scene is repeated without reason in a loop for a few minutes.", instead you are giving them a positive suggestion by saying "heck yes, this is what I want! I will even pay you more in a cash shop to skip parts of your crummy game!"
If I thought of any game like you described, I simply wouldn't play it. I am not forced to play a MMO.
I paid 1000€ for my PC, I pay 15€ monthly for my online connection, I paid 50€ for the game and I pay a monthly subscription fee of 15€ to use the servers, just like you.
Why do you care if I pay an extra 5€ per month to skip parts of the game I do not like?
Why do you attach such a low value to your time that you end up forcing yourself to play parts of the game that are no fun?
About your film analogy: I am sure you would fast forward if a 10 second scene is repeated without reason in a loop for a few minutes.
Why are parts of the game no fun? Why won't the parts of the game that are no fun ever be fixed? Why would you pay them not to fix the parts of the game that are no fun?
Not all parts of all games will be fun for all people. It's impossible to balance for each individual playing.
I see this comment from a lot of you. This isn't something a single player game gets a free pass on, why lower your standards for a MMO? Only play MMOs that YOU find to be a fun play all the way through. Single player games are put on the shelf knowing they will not please everyone, but they sure hope it will please the majority all the way through.
Game companies have to strive for a fun game first and foremost. MMOs should be no different. Why keep paying for MMOs that try to be something for everyone and missing the mark for all. Having to pay extra in an item shop to skip content proves right there this philosphy isn't working. If someone ever feels they have to pull out their wallet to skip parts in yoru game, it's either A. they are not the target audience or B. Your game stinks.
If you guys would stop bending over and playing garbage that you find unfun and playing only games you do find fun. We wouldn't have a pile of the same huge bland MMOs with item shops in all, instead we would have many MMOs that suite the taste of many different players. There doesn't have to be one size fits all. With an item shop that is what you are getting. Throwing in an item shop to make YOU pay more for the games shortcommings is silly.
Much agreed with the OP. A game has to be interesting at all its stages, like a movie, a radio station, a music song, a DJ, a concert, etc. If i don't enjoy some part of a game i stop playing it.
It's plainly stupid to pay more money for something you payed already and don't enjoy, under the promise that you will enjoy some other, later, part of it. Cause it's just a promise - the same promise the same developer did when they originally sold you that same game...
I mean, if you are so naive, i have a MMO here, its first 170 levels are made in excel and you just have to click a couple of buttons repedetly in order to level up. The whole process should take you around 3 years, but the game is free to play so that shouldn't be an issue heh? At lvl170 my whole game transforms into a full blown 3D endgame MMO with raids and stuff. So it's worth the trouble heh? And if you are in a hurry, i can always help you by making that 3 years period just a couple of days, if you pay me 300$.
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
f2p games aren't free to play. They are choose how you pay to play. Really, it is just a matter of being able to choose the benefits you get for paying. Some people will play for free, but how many of those people are left at end game? Maybe the ones willing to grind out the cash to buy the cash shop items from other players, but they are increasing their play time for those benefits, not decreasing it at all.
That said, when I shop at item malls, I get the stuff that's really not very optional (more bag space) and stuff that just makes me happy (TEDDY BEAR!!! PLZ THX!!!) and hardly any "skip the boring stuff" items. In the one f2p I played the longest, I did get some exp potions in game for in-game events, and I did get at least one "level faster for 8 hours" item from a lotto box that I paid US$0.50 for. I just didn't see that much that was totally gamebreaking or that I couldn't buy in-game for other players.
It's a bogus argument that the whole game isn't worth playing if you take a shortcut here or there. If that were the case, pay to play games must suck just as badly, considering all the powerleveling and twinking that goes on.
If, as you say, games are entertainment, wth do you care how we enjoy them?
The thing is you are not enjoying the games. You are paying for the game, expansions, monthly fee if any, and then paying extra to skip the game. Apparently you didn't have time to read the whole post or you would realize this post was meant to show if you didn't buy into this, you would get the games you want without these grinds and time constraints you want to buy your way through.
Keep buying in that cash shop, you are only hurting yourself.
Part of the game is fun. Part of it isn't. If someone wants to pay in order to skip the un-fun portions, so they can spend more time doing the fun portions, how is that hurting you?
No one is hurting anyone else by playing different games.
Free To Play gamers and Pay to Play gamers belong on different servers.
Just like FFA PvP gamers and those that dont' like FFA PvP.
It's a bogus argument that the whole game isn't worth playing if you take a shortcut here or there. If that were the case, pay to play games must suck just as badly, considering all the powerleveling and twinking that goes on.
It's never a bogus argument that different people enjoy different things.
I don't power level or twink in P2P games, but I also dont' mind it, because everything used to powerlevel or twink was earned INSIDE the game.
Even people buying gold from gold sellers in a P2P game isnt' as bad as an Item shop, because all the gold was earned INSIDE the game.
I like a game world where the outside world has no influence over the game world. The gold, items, xp, character leveling, everything is determined INSIDE the game world.
Really, it's no different than some people don't like games with instances, some people don't like loading screens, some people don't like FFA PvP, some people don't like RvR, some people life Fantasy, some people like Sci Fi, and so on.
If you like F2P and purchasing items, that's fine with me, and I hope you enjoy your game and your items.
I would hope you'd tell me the same thing, that if I enjoy P2P, you hope I enjoy my subscription and playing the game where everything must be earned INSIDE the game.
It's a bogus argument that the whole game isn't worth playing if you take a shortcut here or there. If that were the case, pay to play games must suck just as badly, considering all the powerleveling and twinking that goes on.
It's never a bogus argument that different people enjoy different things.
I don't power level or twink in P2P games, but I also dont' mind it, because everything used to powerlevel or twink was earned INSIDE the game.
Even people buying gold from gold sellers in a P2P game isnt' as bad as an Item shop, because all the gold was earned INSIDE the game.
I like a game world where the outside world has no influence over the game world. The gold, items, xp, character leveling, everything is determined INSIDE the game world.
Really, it's no different than some people don't like games with instances, some people don't like loading screens, some people don't like FFA PvP, some people don't like RvR, some people life Fantasy, some people like Sci Fi, and so on.
If you like F2P and purchasing items, that's fine with me, and I hope you enjoy your game and your items.
I would hope you'd tell me the same thing, that if I enjoy P2P, you hope I enjoy my subscription and playing the game where everything must be earned INSIDE the game.
Except unfortunately it appears we're going into a cycle where a more hybrid model of sub + cash shop will quickly become the norm, rather than the exception.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It's a bogus argument that the whole game isn't worth playing if you take a shortcut here or there. If that were the case, pay to play games must suck just as badly, considering all the powerleveling and twinking that goes on.
It's never a bogus argument that different people enjoy different things.
I don't power level or twink in P2P games, but I also dont' mind it, because everything used to powerlevel or twink was earned INSIDE the game.
Even people buying gold from gold sellers in a P2P game isnt' as bad as an Item shop, because all the gold was earned INSIDE the game.
I like a game world where the outside world has no influence over the game world. The gold, items, xp, character leveling, everything is determined INSIDE the game world.
Really, it's no different than some people don't like games with instances, some people don't like loading screens, some people don't like FFA PvP, some people don't like RvR, some people life Fantasy, some people like Sci Fi, and so on.
If you like F2P and purchasing items, that's fine with me, and I hope you enjoy your game and your items.
I would hope you'd tell me the same thing, that if I enjoy P2P, you hope I enjoy my subscription and playing the game where everything must be earned INSIDE the game.
Except unfortunately it appears we're going into a cycle where a more hybrid model of sub + cash shop will quickly become the norm, rather than the exception.
That's not really something I worry about.
Let's say I like Pizza. Maybe people that open up restaruants have decided Seafood is the way to make money, and all they open up is seafood restaruants.
Well, if I'm alregic to Seafood that doesn't do me any good, but I'm happy if other people go eat some seafood and enjoy it.
If they open up more Pizza restaruants I'll eat at them, if they don't, then I won't.
Obviously no matter how many Seafood restaruants open, and if all the Pizza joints go out of business, I'm still not going to eat at the seafood restaraunt if I'm allergic to seafood.
f It's a bogus argument that the whole game isn't worth playing if you take a shortcut here or there. If that were the case, pay to play games must suck just as badly, considering all the powerleveling and twinking that goes on.
It's never a bogus argument that different people enjoy different things. I don't power level or twink in P2P games, but I also dont' mind it, because everything used to powerlevel or twink was earned INSIDE the game. Even people buying gold from gold sellers in a P2P game isnt' as bad as an Item shop, because all the gold was earned INSIDE the game. I like a game world where the outside world has no influence over the game world. The gold, items, xp, character leveling, everything is determined INSIDE the game world. Really, it's no different than some people don't like games with instances, some people don't like loading screens, some people don't like FFA PvP, some people don't like RvR, some people life Fantasy, some people like Sci Fi, and so on. If you like F2P and purchasing items, that's fine with me, and I hope you enjoy your game and your items. I would hope you'd tell me the same thing, that if I enjoy P2P, you hope I enjoy my subscription and playing the game where everything must be earned INSIDE the game.
Except unfortunately it appears we're going into a cycle where a more hybrid model of sub + cash shop will quickly become the norm, rather than the exception.
That's not really something I worry about. Let's say I like Pizza. Maybe people that open up restaruants have decided Seafood is the way to make money, and all they open up is seafood restaruants. Well, if I'm alregic to Seafood that doesn't do me any good, but I'm happy if other people go eat some seafood and enjoy it. If they open up more Pizza restaruants I'll eat at them, if they don't, then I won't. Obviously no matter how many Seafood restaruants open, and if all the Pizza joints go out of business, I'm still not going to eat at the seafood restaraunt if I'm allergic to seafood.
First of all please stop all these analogies. You never can apply them 100% into the topic you discuss or it is so universal that people form counter arguments out of it.
I so agree with Kyleran. P2P and cash shop games are here since many years. Cash shop games are fine for casual game hoppers. You don´t need to buy a client or a sub. You just play the game a bit, and if you like it, you play a bit longer + maybe donate the devs for their work. In my opinion the real problem are these "hybrid" games. You buy the client, pay a sub, and on top of this one day a cash shop opens. Currently Electronic Arts is very good at it and a few others too.
Well, the whole vote with your wallet thing counts doesn't it? I didn't think WoW was fun anymore, I stopped paying my sub. I didn't enjoy RoM, didn't spend money on its cash shop. I like DDO. Its a nice casual game. Can't play it for more then a week or so before i get bored, but it's fun enough during that week that I don't mind tossing Turbine 5-10 bucks. The grinding of the same content in DDO, over and over and over again to earn enough of the currency to buy things in the shop? Not fun. Playing through the content once or twice is fun to me though, and for that fun, I don't mind paying a little.
Lotro is a game I used to enjoy. I didn't care for the LI grind and various other changes, but I'll definitely reinstall it when it goes hybrid and try it out. Will I invest money in it? Probably. If I'm having fun. If not, I won't. Its very simple for me.
I agree with the OP if we were talking about PacMan or Pong. You either like it or not. It would be a little silly to pay to skip it just to see the endscreen.
MMORPGs however, usually have different features and even different playstyles. So lets say, if someone is interested in PVP but has to grind a toon to max lvl in PVE for that. Then that player maybe would like to skip the PVE. With PVP having no ending, it could still be worth it to pay a sub AND pay to skip the PVE.
I would find that a waste of money tbh, but I cant speak for others. Its not as black and white as the OP claims.
To the OP: It's a false dichotomy to claim that "If I don't do X, they will do Y" as in "If I don't spend money on F2P games, they'll make more P2P games". If I take the elitist approach you're advocating, I might be saving money but I'd have no online games to play, since there are no current P2P/B2P games I want to pay for atm. That might change, but without some kind of game-changing innovation, I'm not holding my breath. SWTOR, GW2, FFXIV don't really interest me for a variety of reasons. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised, but I doubt it.
Anyway, I am one of the (I guess exceedingly rare) people who don't care if my toon is competitive, don't care if other people can access content or get items that I can't. Don't care if it's sandboxy, don't care if it's not. Don't care if grouping is forced, don't care if it's not. If a game has a way for me to spend time enjoyably, I'll play it till I stop enjoying it. I've never made it to "endgame" in any online game I've played -- I get bored of all of them eventually. The closest I got was a lvl 52 hunter back when WOW's level cap was 60. I prefer f2p over p2p because I have total control over how much I pay for the amount of fun I'm having. Sometimes (most of the time) it's $0 for some nonzero amount of fun. Occasionally I like an F2P enough to spend some money on it.
So yeah. I'm going to keep playing F2Ps and spending money in them, cuz that's what I want to do. If that doesn't make sense to you, well, I guess it's a good thing that your approval or understanding isn't necessary to me having the kind of fun I want.
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
If, as you say, games are entertainment, wth do you care how we enjoy them?
The thing is you are not enjoying the games. You are paying for the game, expansions, monthly fee if any, and then paying extra to skip the game. Apparently you didn't have time to read the whole post or you would realize this post was meant to show if you didn't buy into this, you would get the games you want without these grinds and time constraints you want to buy your way through.
Keep buying in that cash shop, you are only hurting yourself.
Part of the game is fun. Part of it isn't. If someone wants to pay in order to skip the un-fun portions, so they can spend more time doing the fun portions, how is that hurting you?
^^^ THIS
You dont need to find every single aspect and every single second spent in the game to be fun or enjoyable to like the game overall. And your argument about skipping to the last 10 minutes of the movie are ridiculous. There is no point to a movie other than to get the story, where in a game there are dozens of other things to do besides paying attention to the story (most of which you dont need to know a single thing about the story to do), especially when the story isnt that good or you just dont care for story. If all i cared about was a story, i would go watch a movie or read a book. Im here to play the game and have fun, so if i dont want to waste hours and hours doing something that i dont feel is worth my time, and can pay a measly few bucks to get past it, then yeah ill take that route rather than putting myself through doing something i dont want to do.
I feel this is what OP means excactly, you pay for a extra service to "skip parts you don't like" instead of trying to convince developers to change those part you don't like into things you might like, but aslong people will keep paying to so-called "skip the parts they don't like for extra cash" so will developers continue to put stuff in your way so that you WILL pay the extra cash to skip it again. Obviously no game can be 100% pure fun there are always elements that some might not find fun and some might find fun.
Unfortunaly I think many simply don't see that and for some reason asume that OP or maybe even me want everyone to play or have fun the way I or OP might want to have fun, yet this topic aint about that, it's about trying to let people see it differently.
The only thing I and anyone would care about would be a fun game experiance, yet we keep seeing people using the excuse to skip the unfun part by using cashshops, not knowing that this gives developers the tools to create more "unfun" things in their games cause they have found the new "excuse crowed" who will pay them extra to skip the unfun parts instead of taking a stand to make developers think twice instead of putting in unfun stuff to create something more fun.
Unfortunaly I have seen that many things in a MMORPG seems to be considered unfun to many people who play these games, kinda the reason why this genre has become pretty limited in options and only slightly go beyond regular multiplayer games. Cause whooohooo we still have the people that will continue to play those games even with unfun stuff in it cause YAY! they will pay regardless to skip it.
And to the person saying he doesn't care about the "next person" I think many of us would agree, I don't care how much money some player puts in a game, all I care for is if the game is fun to play for myself, but there is no denying it does hurt this industry seeing the "excuse crowed" playing it. If only for developers giving them more tools to put unfun stuff in their itemmall games.
It's a bogus argument that the whole game isn't worth playing if you take a shortcut here or there. If that were the case, pay to play games must suck just as badly, considering all the powerleveling and twinking that goes on.
It's never a bogus argument that different people enjoy different things.
I don't power level or twink in P2P games, but I also dont' mind it, because everything used to powerlevel or twink was earned INSIDE the game.
Even people buying gold from gold sellers in a P2P game isnt' as bad as an Item shop, because all the gold was earned INSIDE the game.
I like a game world where the outside world has no influence over the game world. The gold, items, xp, character leveling, everything is determined INSIDE the game world.
Really, it's no different than some people don't like games with instances, some people don't like loading screens, some people don't like FFA PvP, some people don't like RvR, some people life Fantasy, some people like Sci Fi, and so on.
If you like F2P and purchasing items, that's fine with me, and I hope you enjoy your game and your items.
I would hope you'd tell me the same thing, that if I enjoy P2P, you hope I enjoy my subscription and playing the game where everything must be earned INSIDE the game.
Except unfortunately it appears we're going into a cycle where a more hybrid model of sub + cash shop will quickly become the norm, rather than the exception.
That's not really something I worry about.
Let's say I like Pizza. Maybe people that open up restaruants have decided Seafood is the way to make money, and all they open up is seafood restaruants.
Well, if I'm alregic to Seafood that doesn't do me any good, but I'm happy if other people go eat some seafood and enjoy it.
If they open up more Pizza restaruants I'll eat at them, if they don't, then I won't.
Obviously no matter how many Seafood restaruants open, and if all the Pizza joints go out of business, I'm still not going to eat at the seafood restaraunt if I'm allergic to seafood.
First of all please stop all these analogies. You never can apply them 100% into the topic you discuss or it is so universal that people form counter arguments out of it.
I so agree with Kyleran.
P2P and cash shop games are here since many years. Cash shop games are fine for casual game hoppers. You don´t need to buy a client or a sub. You just play the game a bit, and if you like it, you play a bit longer + maybe donate the devs for their work.
In my opinion the real problem are these "hybrid" games. You buy the client, pay a sub, and on top of this one day a cash shop opens. Currently Electronic Arts is very good at it and a few others too.
I don't see any problem with that at all.
You are paying 15 bucks a month to access the game. If it changes in a way you don't like, you quit playing.
If it were me, the day the open the cash shop is the day I would quit the game.
They lose one sub, they make it up in item sales, whatever, that's fine.
You want to pay a sub AND have an item shop, then keep playing. If you don't like that, quit.
I'm going to play TOR, unless there's an item shop with anything in it that has usefulness in the game. If they are selling something that changes your lightsaber color, ok, I'll put up with that.
If they are selling xp potions, gear, weapons, armor, transportation, anything at all with any stats, I simply won't play.
If I start playing and they ad a cash shop with items that have stats, boost xp, etc., I will quit that same day.
Comments
Again youre still assuming that everyone enjoys the same things or something. Some people may find stuff like grinding fun and entertaining and dont mind it at all, others cant stand even the slightest grind. But grind is not the sole featur eof a game.
Ive used this example in the past... RF Online:
Horribly grindy game to level up (nobody in the game right now is even at level cap last i checked on the official servers). Most of us wish that the grind could be skipped (I once had a friend who was stuck at level 49 for something like 3 months cause of the terrible grind, and then losing XP upon death and not having the money to buy XP replacement pills). But the game does offer some great PvP on a very large scale that very few other games do, and thats what most people play it for. But there are those who do enjoy the grind, and to them the game is perfect. That doesnt mean the rest of us should quit playing it because we dont enjoy that aspect of the game.
I think that's a bit of a straw man argument. Fact is, if a game isn't fun, people won't play it, regardless of whether its P2P or F2P. Look at AoC's launch, WAR, CO, STO etc.
Me, I approach gaming the same way I approach every other entertainment form out there. If I like it, I spend money on it. For instance, I'm a Green Day fan. Have been since 92. I own every album in CD form. Are all the songs good? Oh god no, they have some real shitbombs. But, the odds are good that I'll like most of the songs, so I invest in the CDs. I like Tim Burton movies. Are they all good? Heavens no. Personally, little sick of seeing Depp in them. But I still buy them because overall, I enjoy his work. Same goes for games. I liked WoW. Yeah, the community was shitty, the gearscore elitism is rampant and a trained monkey can get to 80. But I liked it, and I was willing to pay to support it.
As far as LOTRO goes, I'm actually a little apprehensive on how this changeover is going to work. If it works, great, I'll spend money in the cash shop. If not, I'll move on to something else to spend money on. I dunno, maybe it's because I have some disposable income that I don't mind spending money on a game. But I don't mind it, whether it be a sub or a cash shop, if the game is worth playing, it's worth paying for.
On one hand, this is kind of funny - because it goes against what you previously said. On the other hand, this is kind of funny - because it goes with what you previously said.
In the end, it all leans more toward the my money more than it does the skipping...
...oh and as far as the how does this hurt those that do not F2P?
In the end, it will force them to spend more money than they are with a sub if a sub is even available in a F2P game than they would have without it being F2P. Companies do not go F2P to make less money than they were on a P2P model...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I paid 1000€ for my PC, I pay 15€ monthly for my online connection, I paid 50€ for the game and I pay a monthly subscription fee of 15€ to use the servers, just like you.
Why do you care if I pay an extra 5€ per month to skip parts of the game I do not like?
Why do you attach such a low value to your time that you end up forcing yourself to play parts of the game that are no fun?
About your film analogy: I am sure you would fast forward if a 10 second scene is repeated without reason in a loop for a few minutes.
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Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Link doesn't work.
Not all parts of all games will be fun for all people. It's impossible to balance for each individual playing.
The level of entertainment a part of the game provides is subjective and dependend on the player himself. I absolutly hate repetition, others love it. I love to play the challenging parts, others just want easy and fast rewards.
In other words: A game part will provide different levels of entertainment to different people. The game is neither broken or flawed and doesn't need any fixing.
In most cases MMOs are just a linear sequence of parts. Whats the problem with me skipping the parts I do not like and you skipping other parts you do not like? MMOs are not competitive after all.
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Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
If that is how you feel about the current games, with your film analogy why do you support these games? If you were smart, you would vote with your wallet for games that do not require you to "fast forward if a 10 second scene is repeated without reason in a loop for a few minutes.", instead you are giving them a positive suggestion by saying "heck yes, this is what I want! I will even pay you more in a cash shop to skip parts of your crummy game!"
If I thought of any game like you described, I simply wouldn't play it. I am not forced to play a MMO.
I see this comment from a lot of you. This isn't something a single player game gets a free pass on, why lower your standards for a MMO? Only play MMOs that YOU find to be a fun play all the way through. Single player games are put on the shelf knowing they will not please everyone, but they sure hope it will please the majority all the way through.
Game companies have to strive for a fun game first and foremost. MMOs should be no different. Why keep paying for MMOs that try to be something for everyone and missing the mark for all. Having to pay extra in an item shop to skip content proves right there this philosphy isn't working. If someone ever feels they have to pull out their wallet to skip parts in yoru game, it's either A. they are not the target audience or B. Your game stinks.
If you guys would stop bending over and playing garbage that you find unfun and playing only games you do find fun. We wouldn't have a pile of the same huge bland MMOs with item shops in all, instead we would have many MMOs that suite the taste of many different players. There doesn't have to be one size fits all. With an item shop that is what you are getting. Throwing in an item shop to make YOU pay more for the games shortcommings is silly.
lol such a wrong comment.
Much agreed with the OP. A game has to be interesting at all its stages, like a movie, a radio station, a music song, a DJ, a concert, etc. If i don't enjoy some part of a game i stop playing it.
It's plainly stupid to pay more money for something you payed already and don't enjoy, under the promise that you will enjoy some other, later, part of it. Cause it's just a promise - the same promise the same developer did when they originally sold you that same game...
I mean, if you are so naive, i have a MMO here, its first 170 levels are made in excel and you just have to click a couple of buttons repedetly in order to level up. The whole process should take you around 3 years, but the game is free to play so that shouldn't be an issue heh? At lvl170 my whole game transforms into a full blown 3D endgame MMO with raids and stuff. So it's worth the trouble heh? And if you are in a hurry, i can always help you by making that 3 years period just a couple of days, if you pay me 300$.
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
Future of F2P MMOs:
PVP Player 1 vs Player 2
S T A R T!
Player 1 deposit $10 in the game bank account!
Player 2 deposit $15 in the game bank account!
Player 1 deposit $20 in the game bank account!COMBO!
Player 1 W I N!
Sorry I like to spend my money going out and doing stuff, and i don't have all that spare money to put in cash shop.
And I still would like have a equal chances with everyone.
f2p games aren't free to play. They are choose how you pay to play. Really, it is just a matter of being able to choose the benefits you get for paying. Some people will play for free, but how many of those people are left at end game? Maybe the ones willing to grind out the cash to buy the cash shop items from other players, but they are increasing their play time for those benefits, not decreasing it at all.
That said, when I shop at item malls, I get the stuff that's really not very optional (more bag space) and stuff that just makes me happy (TEDDY BEAR!!! PLZ THX!!!) and hardly any "skip the boring stuff" items. In the one f2p I played the longest, I did get some exp potions in game for in-game events, and I did get at least one "level faster for 8 hours" item from a lotto box that I paid US$0.50 for. I just didn't see that much that was totally gamebreaking or that I couldn't buy in-game for other players.
It's a bogus argument that the whole game isn't worth playing if you take a shortcut here or there. If that were the case, pay to play games must suck just as badly, considering all the powerleveling and twinking that goes on.
No one is hurting anyone else by playing different games.
Free To Play gamers and Pay to Play gamers belong on different servers.
Just like FFA PvP gamers and those that dont' like FFA PvP.
It's never a bogus argument that different people enjoy different things.
I don't power level or twink in P2P games, but I also dont' mind it, because everything used to powerlevel or twink was earned INSIDE the game.
Even people buying gold from gold sellers in a P2P game isnt' as bad as an Item shop, because all the gold was earned INSIDE the game.
I like a game world where the outside world has no influence over the game world. The gold, items, xp, character leveling, everything is determined INSIDE the game world.
Really, it's no different than some people don't like games with instances, some people don't like loading screens, some people don't like FFA PvP, some people don't like RvR, some people life Fantasy, some people like Sci Fi, and so on.
If you like F2P and purchasing items, that's fine with me, and I hope you enjoy your game and your items.
I would hope you'd tell me the same thing, that if I enjoy P2P, you hope I enjoy my subscription and playing the game where everything must be earned INSIDE the game.
Except unfortunately it appears we're going into a cycle where a more hybrid model of sub + cash shop will quickly become the norm, rather than the exception.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That's not really something I worry about.
Let's say I like Pizza. Maybe people that open up restaruants have decided Seafood is the way to make money, and all they open up is seafood restaruants.
Well, if I'm alregic to Seafood that doesn't do me any good, but I'm happy if other people go eat some seafood and enjoy it.
If they open up more Pizza restaruants I'll eat at them, if they don't, then I won't.
Obviously no matter how many Seafood restaruants open, and if all the Pizza joints go out of business, I'm still not going to eat at the seafood restaraunt if I'm allergic to seafood.
I so agree with Kyleran.
P2P and cash shop games are here since many years. Cash shop games are fine for casual game hoppers. You don´t need to buy a client or a sub. You just play the game a bit, and if you like it, you play a bit longer + maybe donate the devs for their work.
In my opinion the real problem are these "hybrid" games. You buy the client, pay a sub, and on top of this one day a cash shop opens. Currently Electronic Arts is very good at it and a few others too.
^ This.
Well said.
I agree with the OP if we were talking about PacMan or Pong. You either like it or not. It would be a little silly to pay to skip it just to see the endscreen.
MMORPGs however, usually have different features and even different playstyles. So lets say, if someone is interested in PVP but has to grind a toon to max lvl in PVE for that. Then that player maybe would like to skip the PVE. With PVP having no ending, it could still be worth it to pay a sub AND pay to skip the PVE.
I would find that a waste of money tbh, but I cant speak for others. Its not as black and white as the OP claims.
To the OP: It's a false dichotomy to claim that "If I don't do X, they will do Y" as in "If I don't spend money on F2P games, they'll make more P2P games". If I take the elitist approach you're advocating, I might be saving money but I'd have no online games to play, since there are no current P2P/B2P games I want to pay for atm. That might change, but without some kind of game-changing innovation, I'm not holding my breath. SWTOR, GW2, FFXIV don't really interest me for a variety of reasons. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised, but I doubt it.
Anyway, I am one of the (I guess exceedingly rare) people who don't care if my toon is competitive, don't care if other people can access content or get items that I can't. Don't care if it's sandboxy, don't care if it's not. Don't care if grouping is forced, don't care if it's not. If a game has a way for me to spend time enjoyably, I'll play it till I stop enjoying it. I've never made it to "endgame" in any online game I've played -- I get bored of all of them eventually. The closest I got was a lvl 52 hunter back when WOW's level cap was 60. I prefer f2p over p2p because I have total control over how much I pay for the amount of fun I'm having. Sometimes (most of the time) it's $0 for some nonzero amount of fun. Occasionally I like an F2P enough to spend some money on it.
So yeah. I'm going to keep playing F2Ps and spending money in them, cuz that's what I want to do. If that doesn't make sense to you, well, I guess it's a good thing that your approval or understanding isn't necessary to me having the kind of fun I want.
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
I feel this is what OP means excactly, you pay for a extra service to "skip parts you don't like" instead of trying to convince developers to change those part you don't like into things you might like, but aslong people will keep paying to so-called "skip the parts they don't like for extra cash" so will developers continue to put stuff in your way so that you WILL pay the extra cash to skip it again. Obviously no game can be 100% pure fun there are always elements that some might not find fun and some might find fun.
Unfortunaly I think many simply don't see that and for some reason asume that OP or maybe even me want everyone to play or have fun the way I or OP might want to have fun, yet this topic aint about that, it's about trying to let people see it differently.
The only thing I and anyone would care about would be a fun game experiance, yet we keep seeing people using the excuse to skip the unfun part by using cashshops, not knowing that this gives developers the tools to create more "unfun" things in their games cause they have found the new "excuse crowed" who will pay them extra to skip the unfun parts instead of taking a stand to make developers think twice instead of putting in unfun stuff to create something more fun.
Unfortunaly I have seen that many things in a MMORPG seems to be considered unfun to many people who play these games, kinda the reason why this genre has become pretty limited in options and only slightly go beyond regular multiplayer games. Cause whooohooo we still have the people that will continue to play those games even with unfun stuff in it cause YAY! they will pay regardless to skip it.
And to the person saying he doesn't care about the "next person" I think many of us would agree, I don't care how much money some player puts in a game, all I care for is if the game is fun to play for myself, but there is no denying it does hurt this industry seeing the "excuse crowed" playing it. If only for developers giving them more tools to put unfun stuff in their itemmall games.
I don't see any problem with that at all.
You are paying 15 bucks a month to access the game. If it changes in a way you don't like, you quit playing.
If it were me, the day the open the cash shop is the day I would quit the game.
They lose one sub, they make it up in item sales, whatever, that's fine.
You want to pay a sub AND have an item shop, then keep playing. If you don't like that, quit.
I'm going to play TOR, unless there's an item shop with anything in it that has usefulness in the game. If they are selling something that changes your lightsaber color, ok, I'll put up with that.
If they are selling xp potions, gear, weapons, armor, transportation, anything at all with any stats, I simply won't play.
If I start playing and they ad a cash shop with items that have stats, boost xp, etc., I will quit that same day.
This has my vote for the post of the year.
Of course you can pay me money and I will vote for another post.
Here you go.
Sure, it's just pixels, but hey, people spend money on pixels in F2P games all the time, so what's the difference?