Beautiful, you summed up how I feel in one sentence. Shopping for items has no business being in a GAME. Games are about playing them, not shopping.
Then you should have no issue with LOTRO, as all items in the shop can be acquired by investing time in the game. They're just offering the option of using cash OR time.
I'm not convinced that the critics of F2P here really get the point that LoTRO isn't switching from P2P to F2P per se.
If DDO and LoTRO are setting the new standard for MMO's it is in the way in which they are offering both F2P and P2P business models to their customers so that players can choose between them.
There are perfectly valid reasons for not liking F2P games, but those reasons don't apply to DDO or LoTRO.
As for those who don't like the way other people will be able to play their game, well tough. Get over it just as groupers and soloers, crafters and non-crafters, raiders and non-raiders, PvE'ers and PvP'ers live happily alongside each other. Play the game your own way and don't worry about what the rest get up to. There's absolutely no suggestion whatsoever that the cash shop in LoTRO will give any one player an advantage over another player.
I would agree with you if becoming a paying customer allowed access to ALL content in the game. This will not be the case. There will still be the tacted on item shop that will have items exclusive for purchase with real cash.
Paying customers will have access to all content. Yeah, expansions will be behind barriers where you can either pay or grind for points to access them, but how is that any different from any other sub game?
Originally posted by Wharg0ul This is the ultimate culmination of the "instant gratification" mentality that has plagued MMORPGs in recent years. It wasn't enough to dumb the games down, and make sure you never had to accomplish anything....now you don't even have to PLAY to get that next "New Shiny" (tm) item....just BUY IT with your credit card!! This is the beginning of something VERY, VERY bad. You think WoW did permenant damage to MMORPGs?? Just wait 'till THIS little shit-flower blossoms. We went from virtual worlds, to virtual Wal-Mart. And the lazy-ass "GIMME! GIMME! GIMME!" generation cheered the whole time.
This and well said.
All Cash Shops in all online games (MMOs some people call them) exist for one and only one reason: To drain your wallet of extra cash... to tempt you to go the "easy route"...and they justify it by reminding us that we are not as young as we used to be and we don't have the time to earn it ourselves. Poppycock. It's profiteering pure and simple. It's cheating. Years ago the Players would have revolted... and did a few times. Now it's not only acceptable and defended by Dev and Player alike but also considered cool. As another Player posted on these forums not so long ago... "The MMO world has gone straight into the Gutter". I agree. Any Player that buys anything from a Cash Shop in a MMO is Cheating, period. No one will ever convince me otherwise. AND I want LotRO to remain the kind of MMO where everyone can go everywhere together, not this zone access garbage other MMOs are going to now.(No I did not support MoM and SoM as being expansions that restricted Players movements. Level cap yes, restricted access no.)
Cool story, problem is you dont make the rules. You can claim it as cheating all you want, but it is the rules of the game, set by the people running it, therefore not cheating. Ive said it in another thread when someone else mad ethe same comments as you... You cant go into something like a poker tournament, which has rules defined by the people running the tournament, and just declare that youre changing the rules and everyone must play the way you want or else theyre cheating. You cant just cry foul for some made up reason of your own when the rules are already laid out. Unless its an MMO you designed, programmed, and run yourself (or a private server of an existing MMO), you have no say in what the rules are, how other people can/should play, or wether or not something is cheating.
You are free to hold that opinion if you wish and I can respect you right to do so. I just don't agree with it.. As far as I am concerned all cash shops are cheating. This "point of view" of mine runs so deep in me I doubt any argument would change my opinion on this.
So, since almost all MMOs are now going to a F2P or a F2P hybrid model, and most with cash shops, I guess the MMO genre that I loved is gone. All Players are customers, and all customers have the right to be disappointed, even angry, when a favorite product the love gets changed. Customers also have the right to discontinue their use of the product. Time perhaps to find a new hobby that I agree with.
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!" ............... "I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. " __Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__ ...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
I'm not convinced that the critics of F2P here really get the point that LoTRO isn't switching from P2P to F2P per se.
If DDO and LoTRO are setting the new standard for MMO's it is in the way in which they are offering both F2P and P2P business models to their customers so that players can choose between them.
There are perfectly valid reasons for not liking F2P games, but those reasons don't apply to DDO or LoTRO.
As for those who don't like the way other people will be able to play their game, well tough. Get over it just as groupers and soloers, crafters and non-crafters, raiders and non-raiders, PvE'ers and PvP'ers live happily alongside each other. Play the game your own way and don't worry about what the rest get up to. There's absolutely no suggestion whatsoever that the cash shop in LoTRO will give any one player an advantage over another player.
No, you're the one who doesn't get it. Items that aren't found in game that find their way ingame through cash shops destroy the gaming experience. You should not be able to go outside of the game, and essentially have a GM hand over little goodies. That is not keeping the spirit of the game. That is destroying any sense that the game is a living, breathing world. It is instant gratification at it greatest. Something this WoW hating community has always shunned until it showed up in their game of choice.
At one point in time we as gamers thought that using 3rd party programs, buying gold, or buying power leveling services was cheating. Now, that the company is slowly sneaking these things in, you guys are all for it?
If you sell rez/stat boosting/shrines/whatever in a cash shop it should at the least be available through in game experiences. I will admit DDO has been very good with this so far, and only a few items in the cash shop can't be found in game. However, this model is in its infancy, and is bound to evolve. We will see more powerful items as time goes on, and content will be balanced off the cash shop. Kinda like how DDO now offers a complete respec through the cash shop. Something that was never available, and still is not available, through in game experience.
I'm not convinced that the critics of F2P here really get the point that LoTRO isn't switching from P2P to F2P per se.
If DDO and LoTRO are setting the new standard for MMO's it is in the way in which they are offering both F2P and P2P business models to their customers so that players can choose between them.
There are perfectly valid reasons for not liking F2P games, but those reasons don't apply to DDO or LoTRO.
As for those who don't like the way other people will be able to play their game, well tough. Get over it just as groupers and soloers, crafters and non-crafters, raiders and non-raiders, PvE'ers and PvP'ers live happily alongside each other. Play the game your own way and don't worry about what the rest get up to. There's absolutely no suggestion whatsoever that the cash shop in LoTRO will give any one player an advantage over another player.
No, you're the one who doesn't get it. Items that aren't found in game that find their way ingame through cash shops destroy the gaming experience. experience.
No, you don't get it. You earn Turbine Points in game by playing the game. You can then use those points to buy cash shop items. You can, with enough time and grinding, acquire enough points to buy anything you want from the cash shop in LOTRO. There is nothing in the cash shop that cannot be acquired by simply playing the game. The choice comes down to which commodity to spend. Time, or money.
Originally posted by Kungaloosh1 At least Lotro is going the f2p way with their shop instead of charging a sub AND operating a shop like that steaming turd john smedly for eq1/eq2.
I will give you that one. : )Looks like the normal cash shop fans though chimed in on the first page as usual. Sometimes I suspect some members of working for big mmo companies because I can see who in the right mind thinks it's a good idea to pay extra for things that would be in the game normally with just a sub.
If the game is free to play, okay I understand. Games have to make money but I still don't like the idea of items being bought with real life money because that is no longer gaming. But I am still okay with it, I don't have to play. What I really dislike is the companies double dipping now like Blizzard and SOE.
I will be dang if I will pay extra for items that I should be getting after I purchased the games and pay a sub fee.
I'm not convinced that the critics of F2P here really get the point that LoTRO isn't switching from P2P to F2P per se.
If DDO and LoTRO are setting the new standard for MMO's it is in the way in which they are offering both F2P and P2P business models to their customers so that players can choose between them.
There are perfectly valid reasons for not liking F2P games, but those reasons don't apply to DDO or LoTRO.
As for those who don't like the way other people will be able to play their game, well tough. Get over it just as groupers and soloers, crafters and non-crafters, raiders and non-raiders, PvE'ers and PvP'ers live happily alongside each other. Play the game your own way and don't worry about what the rest get up to. There's absolutely no suggestion whatsoever that the cash shop in LoTRO will give any one player an advantage over another player.
I would agree with you if becoming a paying customer allowed access to ALL content in the game. This will not be the case. There will still be the tacted on item shop that will have items exclusive for purchase with real cash.
Paying customers will have access to all content. Yeah, expansions will be behind barriers where you can either pay or grind for points to access them, but how is that any different from any other sub game?
If what you say is true, that I retract my comments. I am okay with the business model but still not okay with item shops in general. At least they are not double dipping like WoW or SOE.
I'm not convinced that the critics of F2P here really get the point that LoTRO isn't switching from P2P to F2P per se.
If DDO and LoTRO are setting the new standard for MMO's it is in the way in which they are offering both F2P and P2P business models to their customers so that players can choose between them.
There are perfectly valid reasons for not liking F2P games, but those reasons don't apply to DDO or LoTRO.
As for those who don't like the way other people will be able to play their game, well tough. Get over it just as groupers and soloers, crafters and non-crafters, raiders and non-raiders, PvE'ers and PvP'ers live happily alongside each other. Play the game your own way and don't worry about what the rest get up to. There's absolutely no suggestion whatsoever that the cash shop in LoTRO will give any one player an advantage over another player.
No, you're the one who doesn't get it. Items that aren't found in game that find their way ingame through cash shops destroy the gaming experience. experience.
No, you don't get it. You earn Turbine Points in game by playing the game. You can then use those points to buy cash shop items. You can, with enough time and grinding, acquire enough points to buy anything you want from the cash shop in LOTRO. There is nothing in the cash shop that cannot be acquired by simply playing the game. The choice comes down to which commodity to spend. Time, or money.
Give it up, Zeowyrm. You'd have better luck teaching astrophysics to a goldfish than trying to make the anti-F2P crowd see logic. However, if you enjoy lost causes then by all means continue on. I wish you luck.
All Players are customers, and all customers have the right to be disappointed, even angry, when a favorite product the love gets changed. Customers also have the right to discontinue their use of the product.
This has been true since the beginning of MMO's. All of the major companies in this genre -- Blizzard, Sony, NCSoft, Square Enix, etc. -- are mutli-million, or even multi-billion dollar companies. They have been for years.
The problem here is one of misplaced nostalgia. Many long-time MMO players have these rose-colored views of the games that they have played as somehow separate and apart from being retail products, and they've never seen themselves as customers because of it, unless they found themselves on the wrong end of the NGE.
Let's be honest here. In the beginning, these games were made "hard" (i.e., really time consuming) with annoying mechanics in place to slow down your progress so you would play longer, so you would sub longer, and they'd make more money off you in the long run. Those kinds of game mechanics simply don't work anymore. The market has just changed far too much. These days, people are less interested in spending 12+ hours a day playing a video game in order to progress. They don't want to become this guy:
It's not instant gratification, gimmie gimmie that drives newer gamers as much as it is a realization that these are just games, not a complete way of life. It's unhealthy to spend all your time in front of a monitor levelling up a toon.
For some players, like me, this means that you cut way, way back on your MMO gaming. You cultivate a life outside of your computer room, and learn to slow down and let the chips fall where they may. I'll never go on a raid again. I'll never have the most epic gear, or the most loot, or the greatest notoriety in any of these games. I'm okay with that. I don't play them for any of that anyhow. I play them because they're fun.
For other players, this means that maybe you want that gear, or you want to raid with your friends or whatever, but at the same time, you see your time as too valuable to spend 12+ hours a day grinding to get there, so you buy things to speed the process along, like XP potions. That doesn't hurt anyone, and it helps that player achieve their goals at their pace. And for all the complaints about cheating, it's really not that different from taking advantage of double XP weekends or other in-game bonuses to level up a character. It just costs you real money to do it.
Yes, they're games. They're also products, and always have been. At the end of the day, you've got two choices -- play the game, or don't. Buy the products, or don't.
Reallly the only problem is that of the motivational dynamic. In p2p they need to make you want to play to make money. In f2p they just need you to buy stuff.
The difference in the quality of gameplay will be notice by those that care. However history shows that those that care are always on the losing side of any commercial transaction, so suck it up.
Kyleran, you picked a pure F2P game with Runes of Magic. Nothing wrong with that, but Turbine's established approach with DDO and announced approach with LoTRO is not pure F2P, it's very much a hybrid P2P/F2P given that both games involve a subscription option that opens up the whole game. As such it simply doesn't compare to Runes of Magic or any other pure F2P game, however much Turbine's detractors may want it to.
Not at all.
Turbine does F2P the correct way by letting the game be playable 100% competitively (as "competitive" as MMORPGs are anyway) without paying.
This distinguishes them from 99% of F2P MMOs, and is the #1 reason they (and others like them, like League of Legends) should be supported for not screwing up gameplay with performance items that aren't attainable through normal free-play.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
5) No longer with getting that rare horse drop be so presitgious. Everybody will have one. Only 8.99 this week!!! Limited supplies get one now!! Or worse, you can only obtain an item through the shop. Are we grocery shopping here, or playing a game trying to build a legacy? Its a total sham that you can't obtain items through the game you are playing. Instead you have to buy it through an item shop. Is that what we all envisioned this genre to be? Paying for items from outside sources instead of playing the game to get ingame rewards?
4) No more economy from things like healing potions, or any other potion these shops deem non-essential to crafters. Would WoW even have an economy if you could just buy enchants and potions from the online store? No, it wouldn't. Buying goods in EC tunnels in EQ was a unique experience that I loved. Why is that devs thinks it OK to leave out the economy? In DDO, the only way to get powerful potions is through the online store.
3) Our games will become less about accomplishments. Hard to believe, but yes after all those 100% XP pots, and 100% increased loot potions what will anything mean? It used to be prestigious. Now, its a sellout.
2) Our MMORPGs are quickly turning into a quick-serve chain. Need a healer? Buy one for 1 hour for only 2 dollars!! Need a quick heal? Buy it!! Need that extra XP? Buy it!! Need a boost in stats? Buy it!! Need help taking down Da Crusher? Buy your help!!
1) Content being adjusted to shop items. This will happen. XP will be reduced to a crawl to entice people to buy. Loot will be rare, unless you buy a potion. That mob will need everyone in the raid to buy that special potion that reduces damage, or increases damage, or gives more HP.
I was once all for online shops. But then I thought about how the items in the shops can't be found ingame. That makes no sense for a MMORPG. That only hurts the spirit of what this genre once was. Can we even call that gaming? Or just shopping?
MMORPGs are quickly becoming less about the adventure and interaction amongst players, and more about giving players an immediate service for a fee.
Agree 100%.
Add in terrible support going forward and half baked network/servers (see DDO going weeks with paying players unable to play).
Kyleran, you picked a pure F2P game with Runes of Magic. Nothing wrong with that, but Turbine's established approach with DDO and announced approach with LoTRO is not pure F2P, it's very much a hybrid P2P/F2P given that both games involve a subscription option that opens up the whole game. As such it simply doesn't compare to Runes of Magic or any other pure F2P game, however much Turbine's detractors may want it to.
Not at all.
Turbine does F2P the correct way by letting the game be playable 100% competitively (as "competitive" as MMORPGs are anyway) without paying.
This distinguishes them from 99% of F2P MMOs, and is the #1 reason they (and others like them, like League of Legends) should be supported for not screwing up gameplay with performance items that aren't attainable through normal free-play.
They do better than most F2P games, at least so far as DDO is done, but they still do all the things and more the OP refers to even if in smaller ways. The fact of the matter is that if you are not making money by making the whole of the game attractive enough to warrant subscriptions then you are in the business of developing the game in ways that makes the cash shop progitable, period.
What more can you say. The game was bottoming out and Turbine needed a way for the game to be more profitable. They are going to slice the game up like a pizza pie and sell each slice to you in order to play to max level. That is not what gaming is about. This is just a way to squeeze more out of the 100k people who play Lotro so they don't have to shut the game down.
What more can you say. The game was bottoming out and Turbine needed a way for the game to be more profitable.
You're still going to cling to that belief despite several days and several hundred posts across a dozen threads providing you specifically information, links and data to the contrary? More power to you, bro.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Kinda like how DDO now offers a complete respec through the cash shop. Something that was never available, and still is not available, through in game experience.
Every major MMO offers things for money that arent available in game. Name changes, server changes, sex changes, etc. You could make the argument that these dont effect gameplay the way that a respec does, which is true. but at its core a server change is so you dont have to start from scratch again on a new character, which is also the point of a respec.
What more can you say. The game was bottoming out and Turbine needed a way for the game to be more profitable. They are going to slice the game up like a pizza pie and sell each slice to you in order to play to max level. That is not what gaming is about. This is just a way to squeeze more out of the 100k people who play Lotro so they don't have to shut the game down.
Are people really this dense? this isnt about squeezing more money of its current subscribers, this about getting new blood into the game. This is about applying what caused possibly the greatest turn around in MMO history to a game thats already somewhat successful. Not to mention the fact that Lotro is designed to be taken one slice (chapter) at a time anyway. Its heart and soul is the epic quest (which is free), its just the stuff around it they are selling.
Turbine does F2P the correct way by letting the game be playable 100% competitively (as "competitive" as MMORPGs are anyway) without paying.
Really? I don't think that is true at all, though Turbine seems less obvious about selling advantages than other F2P games. Examples, look at DDO as there are many...
- Want to play the newest class (and some would say the best healer class), either you got a massive in game grind (one that requires purchasing much of the cash shop adventures) or you buy it outright.
- Want +1 or +2 to all starting stats - pony up cash for +1 and +2 Tomes in the cash shop, easily some of the most sought after loot in the game before F2P.
- Want 32 point builds or Drow - pony up the dollars on the cash shop or grind it in game.
- XP potions, reserection items, etc, etc, etc,.
And there are more. Sure, it is not $20 for a sparkle pony but the idea that the game is 100% playable for free without severe and great disadvantage is ludicrous. Now, I don't think a game should be free to play so I am not critical on that point but it is worth contesting the ridiculous claims that the game can be played without disadvantage for free. And when you look through the things they are selling it is clear that more and more they are selling outright advantages and ways to avoid increasing grinds and over time that will get more and more sharp as that is how they get paid and that is the problem with the model, even if it is not as obvious as typical F2P games.
Originally posted by teakbois
Originally posted by SaintViktor
What more can you say. The game was bottoming out and Turbine needed a way for the game to be more profitable. They are going to slice the game up like a pizza pie and sell each slice to you in order to play to max level. That is not what gaming is about. This is just a way to squeeze more out of the 100k people who play Lotro so they don't have to shut the game down.
Are people really this dense? this isnt about squeezing more money of its current subscribers, this about getting new blood into the game. This is about applying what caused possibly the greatest turn around in MMO history to a game thats already somewhat successful. Not to mention the fact that Lotro is designed to be taken one slice (chapter) at a time anyway. Its heart and soul is the epic quest (which is free), its just the stuff around it they are selling.
It is about both - getting more for the same. As for DDOs historic turnaround, I went back for a month not long ago just to see for myself and the turnaround is very exagerated. Yes, there are more people but the game is still very light in population, no new servers had been added at the time I went back just a few months ago, and overall there just isn't the change the let on. Yes, it was on the brink of being a ghost town and dead before and now it is a solid small niche - but going from near nothing to next to nothing or just better than nothing is hardly what they make it out to. If they had 15k before and now have 50k or 60k that is a nice bump but it still makes it an abysmisally underpopulated game especially considering the low barrier to entry.
Anyways, clearly the model as shown in DDO is about selling things that previously where included as well as attracting new people with the low entry point while capitalizing on the smaller percentage of those new people that spend in the cash shop (and enticing sub folks to spend in the cash shop as well).
Turbine does F2P the correct way by letting the game be playable 100% competitively (as "competitive" as MMORPGs are anyway) without paying.
Really? I don't think that is true at all, though Turbine seems less obvious about selling advantages than other F2P games. Examples, look at DDO as there are many...
- Want to play the newest class (and some would say the best healer class), either you got a massive in game grind (one that requires purchasing much of the cash shop adventures) or you buy it outright.
- Want +1 or +2 to all starting stats - pony up cash for +1 and +2 Tomes in the cash shop, easily some of the most sought after loot in the game before F2P.
- Want 32 point builds or Drow - pony up the dollars on the cash shop or grind it in game.
- XP potions, reserection items, etc, etc, etc,.
And there are more. Sure, it is not $20 for a sparkle pony but the idea that the game is 100% playable for free without severe and great disadvantage is ludicrous. Now, I don't think a game should be free to play so I am not critical on that point but it is worth contesting the ridiculous claims that the game can be played without disadvantage for free. And when you look through the things they are selling it is clear that more and more they are selling outright advantages and ways to avoid increasing grinds and over time that will get more and more sharp as that is how they get paid and that is the problem with the model, even if it is not as obvious as typical F2P games.
lol, I love this kind of counter points. "You can attain everything in game, but you have to invest time as opposed to money"
"Yeah, but that's a ridiculous amount of time, so, yeah, its stupid, and its a disadvantage to the non-cash shop user"
Doesn't change the FACT that everything in the cash shop can be attained in game with enough time invested.
Turbine does F2P the correct way by letting the game be playable 100% competitively (as "competitive" as MMORPGs are anyway) without paying.
Really? I don't think that is true at all, though Turbine seems less obvious about selling advantages than other F2P games. Examples, look at DDO as there are many...
- Want to play the newest class (and some would say the best healer class), either you got a massive in game grind (one that requires purchasing much of the cash shop adventures) or you buy it outright.
- Want +1 or +2 to all starting stats - pony up cash for +1 and +2 Tomes in the cash shop, easily some of the most sought after loot in the game before F2P.
- Want 32 point builds or Drow - pony up the dollars on the cash shop or grind it in game.
- XP potions, reserection items, etc, etc, etc,.
And there are more. Sure, it is not $20 for a sparkle pony but the idea that the game is 100% playable for free without severe and great disadvantage is ludicrous. Now, I don't think a game should be free to play so I am not critical on that point but it is worth contesting the ridiculous claims that the game can be played without disadvantage for free. And when you look through the things they are selling it is clear that more and more they are selling outright advantages and ways to avoid increasing grinds and over time that will get more and more sharp as that is how they get paid and that is the problem with the model, even if it is not as obvious as typical F2P games.
lol, I love this kind of counter points. "You can attain everything in game, but you have to invest time as opposed to money"
"Yeah, but that's a ridiculous amount of time, so, yeah, its stupid, and its a disadvantage to the non-cash shop user"
Doesn't change the FACT that everything in the cash shop can be attained in game with enough time invested.
First, I didn't say you cannot get various purchasable things with grinds, I pointed out that said grinds are a disadvantage so the statement that you can play everything for free without disadvantage is patently false. Second, there are many many many many items sold in the cash shop that are not attainable through playing and more often than not the play to earn method is so long that it really is not comparable in this respect. By example ... lifetime I have probably played 6 to 8 months total, taken half a dozen characters to cap, and done most of all the quests multiple times over and in all that time playing I have had only two +2 tomes ever drop for me so comparing that to someone buying, for like $50 or $75 bucks if I recall, a full set of +2 tomes at character creation is ridiculous. On top of all that, the grinds now have a financial incentive to go up and up and up because that means more money for Turbine as players by the avoidence of crazy grinds just to not be left behind.
Turbine does F2P the correct way by letting the game be playable 100% competitively (as "competitive" as MMORPGs are anyway) without paying.
Really? I don't think that is true at all, though Turbine seems less obvious about selling advantages than other F2P games. Examples, look at DDO as there are many...
- Want to play the newest class (and some would say the best healer class), either you got a massive in game grind (one that requires purchasing much of the cash shop adventures) or you buy it outright.
- Want +1 or +2 to all starting stats - pony up cash for +1 and +2 Tomes in the cash shop, easily some of the most sought after loot in the game before F2P.
- Want 32 point builds or Drow - pony up the dollars on the cash shop or grind it in game.
- XP potions, reserection items, etc, etc, etc,.
And there are more. Sure, it is not $20 for a sparkle pony but the idea that the game is 100% playable for free without severe and great disadvantage is ludicrous. Now, I don't think a game should be free to play so I am not critical on that point but it is worth contesting the ridiculous claims that the game can be played without disadvantage for free. And when you look through the things they are selling it is clear that more and more they are selling outright advantages and ways to avoid increasing grinds and over time that will get more and more sharp as that is how they get paid and that is the problem with the model, even if it is not as obvious as typical F2P games.
lol, I love this kind of counter points. "You can attain everything in game, but you have to invest time as opposed to money"
"Yeah, but that's a ridiculous amount of time, so, yeah, its stupid, and its a disadvantage to the non-cash shop user"
Doesn't change the FACT that everything in the cash shop can be attained in game with enough time invested.
First, I didn't say you cannot get various purchasable things with grinds, I pointed out that said grinds are a disadvantage so the statement that you can play everything for free without disadvantage is patently false. Second, there are many many many many items sold in the cash shop that are not attainable through playing and more often than not the play to earn method is so long that it really is not comparable in this respect. By example ... lifetime I have probably played 6 to 8 months total, taken half a dozen characters to cap, and done most of all the quests multiple times over and in all that time playing I have had only two +2 tomes ever drop for me so comparing that to someone buying, for like $50 or $75 bucks if I recall, a full set of +2 tomes at character creation is ridiculous.
So, what you are saying is, you don't like grind in your games? Boy, are you in the wrong genre.
Smith You're arguing with someone who doesn't give a hoot if it ruins the game for you just as long as they can get their shiny bauble.
Funny thing about that comment, and the argument theyre having (and so many other people in other threads) is this:
Anti-F2P people say things like F2Ps are full of instant gratification gotta have it now kiddies, or that they are pay to win and people dont earn anything in the game, or comments like them being "pay 2 not play" as in skipping over gameplay, etc.
But then here they are presented with a model like DDO & LOTRO that gives you a chance to either invest $ to progress, or invest time and earn your way through the game for free. And what does everyone do? Cry that its too hard, it takes too long, they shouldnt have to work hard for the stuff, it should be easier and faster to get, etc.
Kind of sounds to me like the anti-F2P people in this case are the instant gratification gotta have it now kiddies who dont want to have to work for anything and just want it all handed to them with no work & no money.
Smith You're arguing with someone who doesn't give a hoot if it ruins the game for you just as long as they can get their shiny bauble.
Funny thing about that comment, and the argument theyre having (and so many other people in other threads) is this:
Anti-F2P people say things like F2Ps are full of instant gratification gotta have it now kiddies, or that they are pay to win and people dont earn anything in the game, or comments like them being "pay 2 not play" as in skipping over gameplay, etc.
But then here they are presented with a model like DDO & LOTRO that gives you a chance to either invest $ to progress, or invest time and earn your way through the game for free. And what does everyone do? Cry that its too hard, it takes too long, they shouldnt have to work hard for the stuff, it should be easier and faster to get, etc.
Kind of sounds to me like the anti-F2P people in this case are the instant gratification gotta have it now kiddies who dont want to have to work for anything and just want it all handed to them with no work & no money.
You might think that. Then you realize there are things in DDO that you cannot get anywhere except in the cash shop. You must buy it there is no other way. That there are things that once would have taken literally years to get that can be had for an absurd amount of cash instantly.
Not true. Again, you can earn the cash shop currency in game. Yes, it takes time. Yes, it's a grind. But there is nothing in the shop that you cannot attain without either an investment of time, or money, your choice.
Smith You're arguing with someone who doesn't give a hoot if it ruins the game for you just as long as they can get their shiny bauble.
Funny thing about that comment, and the argument theyre having (and so many other people in other threads) is this:
Anti-F2P people say things like F2Ps are full of instant gratification gotta have it now kiddies, or that they are pay to win and people dont earn anything in the game, or comments like them being "pay 2 not play" as in skipping over gameplay, etc.
But then here they are presented with a model like DDO & LOTRO that gives you a chance to either invest $ to progress, or invest time and earn your way through the game for free. And what does everyone do? Cry that its too hard, it takes too long, they shouldnt have to work hard for the stuff, it should be easier and faster to get, etc.
Kind of sounds to me like the anti-F2P people in this case are the instant gratification gotta have it now kiddies who dont want to have to work for anything and just want it all handed to them with no work & no money.
You might think that. Then you realize there are things in DDO that you cannot get anywhere except in the cash shop. You must buy it there is no other way. That there are things that once would have taken literally years to get that can be had for an absurd amount of cash instantly.
having played DDO off and on from the year of its release this is total fiction.
Smith You're arguing with someone who doesn't give a hoot if it ruins the game for you just as long as they can get their shiny bauble.
Funny thing about that comment, and the argument theyre having (and so many other people in other threads) is this:
Anti-F2P people say things like F2Ps are full of instant gratification gotta have it now kiddies, or that they are pay to win and people dont earn anything in the game, or comments like them being "pay 2 not play" as in skipping over gameplay, etc.
But then here they are presented with a model like DDO & LOTRO that gives you a chance to either invest $ to progress, or invest time and earn your way through the game for free. And what does everyone do? Cry that its too hard, it takes too long, they shouldnt have to work hard for the stuff, it should be easier and faster to get, etc.
Kind of sounds to me like the anti-F2P people in this case are the instant gratification gotta have it now kiddies who dont want to have to work for anything and just want it all handed to them with no work & no money.
You might think that. Then you realize there are things in DDO that you cannot get anywhere except in the cash shop. You must buy it there is no other way. That there are things that once would have taken literally years to get that can be had for an absurd amount of cash instantly.
You get Turbine points trough gameplay (and by subscribing) so you can get everything in the shop through gameplay/sub.
Which actually seperates LotrO/DDO from all the Pay 2 play MMOs with cash shop where you cant get thoose things without paying extra.
And please, list the things in the DDO store that take "literally years to get"!
If WoW = The Beatles and WAR = Led Zeppelin Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
Comments
Then you should have no issue with LOTRO, as all items in the shop can be acquired by investing time in the game. They're just offering the option of using cash OR time.
Paying customers will have access to all content. Yeah, expansions will be behind barriers where you can either pay or grind for points to access them, but how is that any different from any other sub game?
You are free to hold that opinion if you wish and I can respect you right to do so. I just don't agree with it.. As far as I am concerned all cash shops are cheating. This "point of view" of mine runs so deep in me I doubt any argument would change my opinion on this.
So, since almost all MMOs are now going to a F2P or a F2P hybrid model, and most with cash shops, I guess the MMO genre that I loved is gone. All Players are customers, and all customers have the right to be disappointed, even angry, when a favorite product the love gets changed. Customers also have the right to discontinue their use of the product. Time perhaps to find a new hobby that I agree with.
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!"
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"I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. "
__Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__
...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
No, you're the one who doesn't get it. Items that aren't found in game that find their way ingame through cash shops destroy the gaming experience. You should not be able to go outside of the game, and essentially have a GM hand over little goodies. That is not keeping the spirit of the game. That is destroying any sense that the game is a living, breathing world. It is instant gratification at it greatest. Something this WoW hating community has always shunned until it showed up in their game of choice.
At one point in time we as gamers thought that using 3rd party programs, buying gold, or buying power leveling services was cheating. Now, that the company is slowly sneaking these things in, you guys are all for it?
If you sell rez/stat boosting/shrines/whatever in a cash shop it should at the least be available through in game experiences. I will admit DDO has been very good with this so far, and only a few items in the cash shop can't be found in game. However, this model is in its infancy, and is bound to evolve. We will see more powerful items as time goes on, and content will be balanced off the cash shop. Kinda like how DDO now offers a complete respec through the cash shop. Something that was never available, and still is not available, through in game experience.
No, you don't get it. You earn Turbine Points in game by playing the game. You can then use those points to buy cash shop items. You can, with enough time and grinding, acquire enough points to buy anything you want from the cash shop in LOTRO. There is nothing in the cash shop that cannot be acquired by simply playing the game. The choice comes down to which commodity to spend. Time, or money.
I will give you that one. : )Looks like the normal cash shop fans though chimed in on the first page as usual. Sometimes I suspect some members of working for big mmo companies because I can see who in the right mind thinks it's a good idea to pay extra for things that would be in the game normally with just a sub.
If the game is free to play, okay I understand. Games have to make money but I still don't like the idea of items being bought with real life money because that is no longer gaming. But I am still okay with it, I don't have to play. What I really dislike is the companies double dipping now like Blizzard and SOE.
I will be dang if I will pay extra for items that I should be getting after I purchased the games and pay a sub fee.
If what you say is true, that I retract my comments. I am okay with the business model but still not okay with item shops in general. At least they are not double dipping like WoW or SOE.
Give it up, Zeowyrm. You'd have better luck teaching astrophysics to a goldfish than trying to make the anti-F2P crowd see logic. However, if you enjoy lost causes then by all means continue on. I wish you luck.
This has been true since the beginning of MMO's. All of the major companies in this genre -- Blizzard, Sony, NCSoft, Square Enix, etc. -- are mutli-million, or even multi-billion dollar companies. They have been for years.
The problem here is one of misplaced nostalgia. Many long-time MMO players have these rose-colored views of the games that they have played as somehow separate and apart from being retail products, and they've never seen themselves as customers because of it, unless they found themselves on the wrong end of the NGE.
Let's be honest here. In the beginning, these games were made "hard" (i.e., really time consuming) with annoying mechanics in place to slow down your progress so you would play longer, so you would sub longer, and they'd make more money off you in the long run. Those kinds of game mechanics simply don't work anymore. The market has just changed far too much. These days, people are less interested in spending 12+ hours a day playing a video game in order to progress. They don't want to become this guy:
It's not instant gratification, gimmie gimmie that drives newer gamers as much as it is a realization that these are just games, not a complete way of life. It's unhealthy to spend all your time in front of a monitor levelling up a toon.
For some players, like me, this means that you cut way, way back on your MMO gaming. You cultivate a life outside of your computer room, and learn to slow down and let the chips fall where they may. I'll never go on a raid again. I'll never have the most epic gear, or the most loot, or the greatest notoriety in any of these games. I'm okay with that. I don't play them for any of that anyhow. I play them because they're fun.
For other players, this means that maybe you want that gear, or you want to raid with your friends or whatever, but at the same time, you see your time as too valuable to spend 12+ hours a day grinding to get there, so you buy things to speed the process along, like XP potions. That doesn't hurt anyone, and it helps that player achieve their goals at their pace. And for all the complaints about cheating, it's really not that different from taking advantage of double XP weekends or other in-game bonuses to level up a character. It just costs you real money to do it.
Yes, they're games. They're also products, and always have been. At the end of the day, you've got two choices -- play the game, or don't. Buy the products, or don't.
Reallly the only problem is that of the motivational dynamic. In p2p they need to make you want to play to make money. In f2p they just need you to buy stuff.
The difference in the quality of gameplay will be notice by those that care. However history shows that those that care are always on the losing side of any commercial transaction, so suck it up.
Not at all.
Turbine does F2P the correct way by letting the game be playable 100% competitively (as "competitive" as MMORPGs are anyway) without paying.
This distinguishes them from 99% of F2P MMOs, and is the #1 reason they (and others like them, like League of Legends) should be supported for not screwing up gameplay with performance items that aren't attainable through normal free-play.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Agree 100%.
Add in terrible support going forward and half baked network/servers (see DDO going weeks with paying players unable to play).
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They do better than most F2P games, at least so far as DDO is done, but they still do all the things and more the OP refers to even if in smaller ways. The fact of the matter is that if you are not making money by making the whole of the game attractive enough to warrant subscriptions then you are in the business of developing the game in ways that makes the cash shop progitable, period.
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What more can you say. The game was bottoming out and Turbine needed a way for the game to be more profitable. They are going to slice the game up like a pizza pie and sell each slice to you in order to play to max level. That is not what gaming is about. This is just a way to squeeze more out of the 100k people who play Lotro so they don't have to shut the game down.
You're still going to cling to that belief despite several days and several hundred posts across a dozen threads providing you specifically information, links and data to the contrary? More power to you, bro.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Every major MMO offers things for money that arent available in game. Name changes, server changes, sex changes, etc. You could make the argument that these dont effect gameplay the way that a respec does, which is true. but at its core a server change is so you dont have to start from scratch again on a new character, which is also the point of a respec.
Are people really this dense? this isnt about squeezing more money of its current subscribers, this about getting new blood into the game. This is about applying what caused possibly the greatest turn around in MMO history to a game thats already somewhat successful. Not to mention the fact that Lotro is designed to be taken one slice (chapter) at a time anyway. Its heart and soul is the epic quest (which is free), its just the stuff around it they are selling.Really? I don't think that is true at all, though Turbine seems less obvious about selling advantages than other F2P games. Examples, look at DDO as there are many...
- Want to play the newest class (and some would say the best healer class), either you got a massive in game grind (one that requires purchasing much of the cash shop adventures) or you buy it outright.
- Want +1 or +2 to all starting stats - pony up cash for +1 and +2 Tomes in the cash shop, easily some of the most sought after loot in the game before F2P.
- Want 32 point builds or Drow - pony up the dollars on the cash shop or grind it in game.
- XP potions, reserection items, etc, etc, etc,.
And there are more. Sure, it is not $20 for a sparkle pony but the idea that the game is 100% playable for free without severe and great disadvantage is ludicrous. Now, I don't think a game should be free to play so I am not critical on that point but it is worth contesting the ridiculous claims that the game can be played without disadvantage for free. And when you look through the things they are selling it is clear that more and more they are selling outright advantages and ways to avoid increasing grinds and over time that will get more and more sharp as that is how they get paid and that is the problem with the model, even if it is not as obvious as typical F2P games.
It is about both - getting more for the same. As for DDOs historic turnaround, I went back for a month not long ago just to see for myself and the turnaround is very exagerated. Yes, there are more people but the game is still very light in population, no new servers had been added at the time I went back just a few months ago, and overall there just isn't the change the let on. Yes, it was on the brink of being a ghost town and dead before and now it is a solid small niche - but going from near nothing to next to nothing or just better than nothing is hardly what they make it out to. If they had 15k before and now have 50k or 60k that is a nice bump but it still makes it an abysmisally underpopulated game especially considering the low barrier to entry.
Anyways, clearly the model as shown in DDO is about selling things that previously where included as well as attracting new people with the low entry point while capitalizing on the smaller percentage of those new people that spend in the cash shop (and enticing sub folks to spend in the cash shop as well).
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lol, I love this kind of counter points. "You can attain everything in game, but you have to invest time as opposed to money"
"Yeah, but that's a ridiculous amount of time, so, yeah, its stupid, and its a disadvantage to the non-cash shop user"
Doesn't change the FACT that everything in the cash shop can be attained in game with enough time invested.
First, I didn't say you cannot get various purchasable things with grinds, I pointed out that said grinds are a disadvantage so the statement that you can play everything for free without disadvantage is patently false. Second, there are many many many many items sold in the cash shop that are not attainable through playing and more often than not the play to earn method is so long that it really is not comparable in this respect. By example ... lifetime I have probably played 6 to 8 months total, taken half a dozen characters to cap, and done most of all the quests multiple times over and in all that time playing I have had only two +2 tomes ever drop for me so comparing that to someone buying, for like $50 or $75 bucks if I recall, a full set of +2 tomes at character creation is ridiculous. On top of all that, the grinds now have a financial incentive to go up and up and up because that means more money for Turbine as players by the avoidence of crazy grinds just to not be left behind.
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So, what you are saying is, you don't like grind in your games? Boy, are you in the wrong genre.
Funny thing about that comment, and the argument theyre having (and so many other people in other threads) is this:
Anti-F2P people say things like F2Ps are full of instant gratification gotta have it now kiddies, or that they are pay to win and people dont earn anything in the game, or comments like them being "pay 2 not play" as in skipping over gameplay, etc.
But then here they are presented with a model like DDO & LOTRO that gives you a chance to either invest $ to progress, or invest time and earn your way through the game for free. And what does everyone do? Cry that its too hard, it takes too long, they shouldnt have to work hard for the stuff, it should be easier and faster to get, etc.
Kind of sounds to me like the anti-F2P people in this case are the instant gratification gotta have it now kiddies who dont want to have to work for anything and just want it all handed to them with no work & no money.
Not true. Again, you can earn the cash shop currency in game. Yes, it takes time. Yes, it's a grind. But there is nothing in the shop that you cannot attain without either an investment of time, or money, your choice.
having played DDO off and on from the year of its release this is total fiction.
You get Turbine points trough gameplay (and by subscribing) so you can get everything in the shop through gameplay/sub.
Which actually seperates LotrO/DDO from all the Pay 2 play MMOs with cash shop where you cant get thoose things without paying extra.
And please, list the things in the DDO store that take "literally years to get"!
If WoW = The Beatles
and WAR = Led Zeppelin
Then LotrO = Pink Floyd