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Why Instances bad?

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  • FC-FamineFC-Famine Funcom Community Manager Durham, NCPosts: 278Member

    Originally posted by Murashu

    Originally posted by FC-Famine

     

    This is not a problem though. We have to cater to someone. What makes one side any different than the other side in that retrospect? If we cater to you, then the other side would make the exact same post you're making exclaiming, "Here is the problem!"

    Now before someone wise chimes in and says, "Well the difference is in the numbers!" Then you will have to see some truth there. If a good bulk of players don't like to wait and don't want to share then yes, it makes sense to cater to those players. Otherwise, we would cater to a smaller minority where a larger group is exclaiming, "You JUST DONT GET IT!" image

    On the other hand, it's possible to have both, but sometimes not so easy to have both. Regardless, it's not really a problem to the bigger picture, only to the individual. This is a massively multiplayer game and we have to cater to as many people as possible, not to just one person -- but many.

    It's a pickle of a debate, I like both systems honestly, but that's only because I understand it from both sides of the fence. image

     I think that is the main problem we have today. Everyone wants to make a game for the large group and thumb their nose at the smaller group. While all these game companies are fighting each other over the instant gratification, non-community customer base, they all ignore the rest of us. Hopefully one day a company will design a quality MMO for all of us who appreciate a sense of accomplishment and don't mind interacting with others.

    That's basically the same point I just made under a different wrapping. You will never be able to please everyone. You have to cater to someone and there will always be a group of people who feel left out. There is just no way around it no matter if you're developing a TV or a massively multiplayer online game.

    It's just the nature of the business.

    I would love nothing more than my car to have the ability to fly me to work, but I also understand that I'm the minority and would not see this feature added to my car anytime soon. I don't blame the car company for appealing to their primary customer demands, but I do wish they would add it too!

    Glen ''Famine'' Swan
    Senior Assistant Community Manager - Funcom

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Murashu
     I think that is the main problem we have today. Everyone wants to make a game for the large group and thumb their nose at the smaller group. While all these game companies are fighting each other over the instant gratification, non-community customer base, they all ignore the rest of us. Hopefully one day a company will design a quality MMO for all of us who appreciate a sense of accomplishment and don't mind interacting with others.

    Who is 'rest of us'? It is not all that black & white and even when you focus at smaller community, it is not homogeneous and there will always be a group of people feeling unhappy about the game.

    Many design choices are antinomic and trying to please everyone is a way to failure.


  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by biofellis

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Originally posted by Garvon3


    Originally posted by Eindrachen

    Instancing is pretty much a neccessity.  It reduces server loads, and does a great job of reducing griefing of certain types (like kill-stealing).

    But there will always and ever be a love of the great open outdoors.  I tried EQ2 for a while.  While the instancing wasn't the only reason I quit, it was definitely a significant factor.

    Are there really this many people who think there's no other way? Did all of you play poorly designed MMOs? :/ 

    Yeah .. all of us played EQ.

    Seriously, either a) you have a boss that is not popular (with no good loot) and no one cares to fight him, or b) the boss is popular and you need to take a number to wait in line.

    And don't give me the crap about having enough content to satisfy everyone. No developers in the world can create enough bosses to 2000 people on a server don't have to fight over them.

    All it takes to make a 'new' boss is to paint a new texture on an old one (if you want) & clone him. Yeah- you could do more, but why bother? People don't care that he pops back up in half an hour, they sure as hell won't care if he has a 'doppleganger' a mile over the hill. Make all variants of the same boss respawn simultaneously so people can't do a circuit, and voila. 2000 people? no prob we'll say 200 per level group (8 levels)- maybe half those guys all want a boss at once (worst case except at high level)- make 10 man raids the norm (we'll say) that's a boss plus 19 total clones for no waiting.

    Computers are cool- you could even write a program to vary their looks/colors if you want. Name them according to some convention so people know they don't 'need' a boss the 'killed' if they stumble onto one somewhere they didn't know about.

    And all these bosses have lackeys who employ some 'quick jump'/teleport tech, so if there's a queue, you can jump to the next one.

    Instances? The same work is done by the machine- it's just the player to player data updates that they cut down. That's cpu & bandwidth- which equals money. Better games cost more.

    Course Guild Wars has no sub fee- and they've survived. Who knows what the other guys are doing with their 'allowance'- but I know what they're not doing- they're not trying to get rid of instancing.

    Won't work. Just a model of a boss is not an encounter. If you want to duplicate all the fun interaction (like how to fight him), you need to have the same script, same environment, and so on. You may as well have instances.

    Plus, you cannot control how many are fighting the boss at once and make tuning difficulty of the encounter impossible.

  • biofellisbiofellis Central, NYPosts: 511Member

    .

  • LucziferLuczifer TallinnPosts: 154Member Uncommon

    For me instancing  is lowbe way to go. Yes, everybody can have his own dragon king and kill him...

    ... but then there's is no more legendary battles, heros etc.

    As one wrote - ya got yar 1st very rare legendary super item and rise it with "see what I have now"

    and half of population rises their hands too with same super-hyper..... :)

    I remember EQ1 times (yeah, ya can now cry about badly designed game *wink*) when some yber-bosses spawned only once in week - means ya have only 52 times in year boss up (and not any time he dropped that item ya wanna).

    I was awfully long time at max lvl before I get a chanche to loot BoW... and that was unic sword, that was legendary!

    Now in LOTRO I ran thru craft-instance in 20 minutes and came out half my packs filled with "legendary weapons"

    which I destroyed all afterwards to get those stupid runics. Is this legend ya can harvest more than rabbit's sheit in woods?

    And made that sword only possibility for ya as player? NO! Ya could have many other very good things and do ya job. Gear wasn't only criterion ppl choose ya in raid (like now in WoW). But it was achievment - every man could be a very good athletic but there is only one olympic game's gold medalist in each 4-year run. Making instances = making olympic games for every 6-man / 12-man group and after a few everyman hanging around his bling-bling on neck

    But I woun't participate in such kind of Olympics :)

  • DaywolfDaywolf Winchester, CAPosts: 749Member

    Originally posted by Eindrachen

    Instancing is pretty much a neccessity.  It reduces server loads, and does a great job of reducing griefing of certain types (like kill-stealing).

    Actually it increases server loads, but decreases bandwidth... which isn't a big drain these days (it's cheap).



    Anyway as someone said, it's just used poorly, a form of content development cheating. Instancing can be good, if used rarely, and/or for player housing & guild housing imo.

    M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demo’s & indie alpha's.

  • TerranahTerranah Stockton, CAPosts: 3,605Member

    Yesterday I was at the computer and I heard my wife calling to me from the kitchen.  So I walk down the hall into the kitchen and she isn't there.   I'm like...wtf.  So I call out her name and she yells  back, "I'm in the kitchen!"  I say back, well you obviously aren't in the kitchen because I'm in the kitchen and you aren't there.

     

    Then it occured to me, damn...she's in another instance.  So I stepped out of the kitchen and then tried to step back in, but because my mother in law was in the kitchen with her, I couldn't get in.  It was very frustrating.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by Luczifer

    I remember EQ1 times (yeah, ya can now cry about badly designed game *wink*) when some yber-bosses spawned only once in week - means ya have only 52 times in year boss up (and not any time he dropped that item ya wanna).

     

    Of course that is failed designed. For a server of TENS OF THOUSANDS of users, only like 10 or so can have that item. That is a HUGE waste of resources. Items should NOT be gated by such horrible drop rate but the difficulty of the encounter.

    Spawning once a week does not make the boss weak. It makes the design stupid. Why create a boss and only let ONE group fight it once a week?

    Just look at WOW. There are as few who has dropped from the Heroic LK. It is because the encounter is challenging, not because players have to wait WEEKS just to fight him. MUCH better game design.

     

  • DaywolfDaywolf Winchester, CAPosts: 749Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Of course that is failed designed. For a server of TENS OF THOUSANDS of users, only like 10 or so can have that item. That is a HUGE waste of resources. Items should NOT be gated by such horrible drop rate but the difficulty of the encounter.

    Not at all, he's talking about raids.



    As for games having rare items, how is that  a waste of resources? All the devs do is rename the item and change it's properties a little, takes two minutes. Maybe everyone should get little gold stars for logging into a game? Little bows for everyone as everyone can just fire up an instance and get it all instantly. Rares are awesome!

    M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demo’s & indie alpha's.

  • Calind0rCalind0r Sydney, NSPosts: 735Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Luczifer



    I remember EQ1 times (yeah, ya can now cry about badly designed game *wink*) when some yber-bosses spawned only once in week - means ya have only 52 times in year boss up (and not any time he dropped that item ya wanna).

     

    Of course that is failed designed. For a server of TENS OF THOUSANDS of users, only like 10 or so can have that item. That is a HUGE waste of resources. Items should NOT be gated by such horrible drop rate but the difficulty of the encounter.

    Spawning once a week does not make the boss weak. It makes the design stupid. Why create a boss and only let ONE group fight it once a week?

    Just look at WOW. There are as few who has dropped from the Heroic LK. It is because the encounter is challenging, not because players have to wait WEEKS just to fight him. MUCH better game design.

     

    Some of us like having competition and earning something meaningful, rather than having it handed to us on a silver platter like we're a 5 year old kid.

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member

    Originally posted by Calind0r

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Originally posted by Luczifer



    I remember EQ1 times (yeah, ya can now cry about badly designed game *wink*) when some yber-bosses spawned only once in week - means ya have only 52 times in year boss up (and not any time he dropped that item ya wanna).

     

    Of course that is failed designed. For a server of TENS OF THOUSANDS of users, only like 10 or so can have that item. That is a HUGE waste of resources. Items should NOT be gated by such horrible drop rate but the difficulty of the encounter.

    Spawning once a week does not make the boss weak. It makes the design stupid. Why create a boss and only let ONE group fight it once a week?

    Just look at WOW. There are as few who has dropped from the Heroic LK. It is because the encounter is challenging, not because players have to wait WEEKS just to fight him. MUCH better game design.

     

    Some of us like having competition and earning something meaningful, rather than having it handed to us on a silver platter like we're a 5 year old kid.

     

    No, he's got a point. The harder something is to obtain, the less relevant it is to the playerbase as a whole.

    Example; Wurm Online's Uniques

    Much like how Mortal Online is supposedly going to have one-time only monsters, Wurm has been doing this for years. The end result is always people coming to the party a year too late. It may not be comparable to WoW loot, or say EQ's epic quest, but just as many people are going to be likely to achieve it based on some limiting factor. All that effort to sate the baker's dozen of hardcore dudes.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • astoriaastoria Silver Spring, MDPosts: 1,681Member


    Originally posted by Terranah
    Yesterday I was at the computer and I heard my wife calling to me from the kitchen.  So I walk down the hall into the kitchen and she isn't there.   I'm like...wtf.  So I call out her name and she yells  back, "I'm in the kitchen!"  I say back, well you obviously aren't in the kitchen because I'm in the kitchen and you aren't there.
     
    Then it occured to me, damn...she's in another instance.  So I stepped out of the kitchen and then tried to step back in, but because my mother in law was in the kitchen with her, I couldn't get in.  It was very frustrating.

    I got caught in a kitchen instance with another player that had the same exact character model and armor as my gf. Lack of character customization is baaad.

    "Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga

  • Calind0rCalind0r Sydney, NSPosts: 735Member

    The point is, everyone eventually ends up killing a raid boss, it's not special.

     

    What's special is having a PvP game like Lineage 2 where an epic raid boss spawns once per server, and you have to fight for it, knowing you're the best, you got it and everyone else wanted it.

    That's a true feeling of accomplishment. I understand some people are *cough*pussies ;) and don't like that kind of hardcore competition, but that's why there are different kinds of server types...I really wish games made servers to cater to each play style rather than trying to appeal to everyone but end up satisfying no one.

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member

    Heh, you really are just a douchebag.

    to make this more 'constructive', my last point was that coming to the game late means missing your chance at a unique, not just failure to be there or win. It's a counter-productive idea and takes way too much effort, for way too little content.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • DaywolfDaywolf Winchester, CAPosts: 749Member

    Originally posted by astoria

     




    Originally posted by Terranah

    Yesterday I was at the computer and I heard my wife calling to me from the kitchen.  So I walk down the hall into the kitchen and she isn't there.   I'm like...wtf.  So I call out her name and she yells  back, "I'm in the kitchen!"  I say back, well you obviously aren't in the kitchen because I'm in the kitchen and you aren't there.

     

    Then it occured to me, damn...she's in another instance.  So I stepped out of the kitchen and then tried to step back in, but because my mother in law was in the kitchen with her, I couldn't get in.  It was very frustrating.




    I got caught in a kitchen instance with another player that had the same exact character model and armor as my gf. Lack of character customization is baaad.

    Ouch! did she find out, hack your account and delete your attachments?  x . x

    M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demo’s & indie alpha's.

  • Calind0rCalind0r Sydney, NSPosts: 735Member

    Maybe you should actually try a game with a system like that and know what you're talking about before you spew invalid comments.

    Coming to the game late just means that establishes people will have more of them, you will simply have to work harder or be better than them to get it...Also form alliances with other people who have them that will help you to get them, etc... And the content or fun is in the journey, or the fight, not the shiny reward for a 5 year old at the end.

  • warmaster670warmaster670 Simcoe, ONPosts: 1,384Member

    Originally posted by Calind0r

    The point is, everyone eventually ends up killing a raid boss, it's not special.

     

    What's special is having a PvP game like Lineage 2 where an epic raid boss spawns once per server, and you have to fight for it, knowing you're the best, you got it and everyone else wanted it.

    That's a true feeling of accomplishment. I understand some people are *cough*pussies ;) and don't like that kind of hardcore competition, but that's why there are different kinds of server types...I really wish games made servers to cater to each play style rather than trying to appeal to everyone but end up satisfying no one.

    Ya you must be a pussy to want to experience content you pay to have access too....

    Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
    Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.

  • Calind0rCalind0r Sydney, NSPosts: 735Member

    Originally posted by warmaster670

    Originally posted by Calind0r

     

    Ya you must be a pussy to want to experience content you pay to have access too....

    lol, that's like saying if you pay to joing a sports league you should be given an automatic win, because it's not fair if you lose.

     

    Like I said there should be different kinds of servers, those who don't want competition can chose a PvE or Normal server (which is really what a PvP server in WoW is, WoW doesn't have PvP servers)...

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member

    Originally posted by Calind0r

    Maybe you should actually try a game with a system like that before you make invalid comments on it looking like a retard.

    Maybe you should reread the very same example you responded to; Wurm Online (read sig)

    There are a handful of dragons that can be skinned, and 3 hulking dudes that mess people up good. The PvE server still has yet to down 2 of the 3 badass ones because the server lacks 'champions', this game's take on SWG jedi's (superpowered, 3 lives). The PvP server that has champions has had their uniques killed since forever, but when they rescattered a set of artifacts back underground to search for, they reset the uniques.

    The players were so high level at that point, as so well coordinated, that they found all the relics on the *first day* and killed the uniques within 2 weeks (had to find them again). Anyone who has just heard about this game thanks to this post will never have a chance at them... unless they go to the PvE server where 2 of 3 are left. Point is though, it was cool for some - and easily forgotten and never experienced by people to come later.

     

     

    Let's not even go over the thing that took people 9 to 11 days to try and down in EQ. Chances are they put it in with no reward for killing it, because they expected nobody to ever do it. It's just there as neverending content in attmepting it and failing. Should anyone down it, they would prolly just have a meeting and then hand out titles. Then drop another to fill the gap.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • warmaster670warmaster670 Simcoe, ONPosts: 1,384Member

    Originally posted by Calind0r

    Originally posted by warmaster670


    Originally posted by Calind0r

     

    Ya you must be a pussy to want to experience content you pay to have access too....

    lol, that's like saying if you pay to joing a sports league you should be given an automatic win, because it's not fair if you lose.

     

    lol, canyt see the difference between a sports league and a video game? thats pretty pathetic.

    Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
    Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.

  • Calind0rCalind0r Sydney, NSPosts: 735Member

    Originally posted by warmaster670

    Originally posted by Calind0r


    Originally posted by warmaster670


    Originally posted by Calind0r

     

    Ya you must be a pussy to want to experience content you pay to have access too....

    lol, that's like saying if you pay to joing a sports league you should be given an automatic win, because it's not fair if you lose.

     

    lol, canyt see the difference between a sports league and a video game? thats pretty pathetic.

    way to fail at missing the entire point, competition. Some people want to be the best, by beating others, not by running into an instance and killing a raid boss the countless before have killed, and countless after you will kill. Even if there are server firsts, that is only for a miniscule amount of time, where fighting over raid bosses will happen every single time.

  • LucziferLuczifer TallinnPosts: 154Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by warmaster670

    Ya you must be a pussy to want to experience content you pay to have access too....

    Ya pay only for getting immediatly last and best item? And then ya done?

    How easy is to build such games - ya log in, get from shelf Super-Hyper-Mega-Ybah-Power-Legendary-Idolled-Sword

    and then stiing on Fastest-Most-Beatufilu-Flying-Swimming-Burrowing-Horse..... and Ya are Winner of dat game!

    *Irony off* Say how in such kind of game ya stayed without CONTENT YA PAY? Then never buy a car too -

    ya could be sure that ya never can buy most expensive car in world after obtaining yar 1st driver's licence :)

    Ya pay for fun, for adventure, for socialize with other ppl around the world, if i'm correct?

    Loot is reward and helps ya on ya adventures but isn't one and only driving element (we saw nowadays in so many games).

    And when ya already sure ya never can get it among tens of thousands players, so what?

    Those times' megaloot was NOT criteria ya are able to participate in end-game and raids. Those where only a bit over items ya can obtain more easier and those again not so far from more ordinary ones. Be happy when ya guild downs 1st that mega-villain, be happy that ya buddy win it... and think about time when ya hold it.. and still it's rare... and is unic :)

    And as was mentioned above most legendary fights were not for loot at all - in EQ1 world-wide society ppl know and talk those brave guilds joining their forces and killed Sleeper, dragon that was developed "not-to-be-killed" and so w/out any loot at all :)

  • DaywolfDaywolf Winchester, CAPosts: 749Member

    Originally posted by Luczifer

    And as was mentioned above most legendary fights were not for loot at all - in EQ1 world-wide society ppl know and talk those brave guilds joining their forces and killed Sleeper, dragon that was developed "not-to-be-killed" and so w/out any loot at all :)

    Well that's the whole thing, it's cookie cutter. Everyone gets a pass, all the same gear, the same loot. Things that are unique are gone as once was there, even if it is just in an object name. Everyone shares the same exact experience, shares the same stories. It's what mmog's have come to with this current generation, and how many classic mmogs have revamped to.

    M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demo’s & indie alpha's.

  • AvatarBladeAvatarBlade BucurestiPosts: 770Member Uncommon

    In the case of a theme park mmo, I like instances. Yes, I want to have the same story, because, as far as I see it, theme park mmos are about the story. The main focus of the PvE is going through the story of the game, at least for me. On the other hand I agree that a sandbox game can do just fine without instances since everyone makes their own story there.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by Daywolf

    Originally posted by nariusseldon



    Of course that is failed designed. For a server of TENS OF THOUSANDS of users, only like 10 or so can have that item. That is a HUGE waste of resources. Items should NOT be gated by such horrible drop rate but the difficulty of the encounter.

    Not at all, he's talking about raids.



    As for games having rare items, how is that  a waste of resources? All the devs do is rename the item and change it's properties a little, takes two minutes. Maybe everyone should get little gold stars for logging into a game? Little bows for everyone as everyone can just fire up an instance and get it all instantly. Rares are awesome!

    Designing a good boss encounter is a lot of resources. Unique model for the boss, scripted events, the actual enviornment and enviromental effect.

    It is a waste of resource that only 10 or so can fight the boss in a year.

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