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Here is the main reason forced/heavy group focused MMOs dont work

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  • SirAoSSirAoS Chicago, ILPosts: 203Member

    Originally posted by uquipu

     




    Originally posted by Gerahben

    I have a theory that many player's opinions on this matter is derived from the first MMO they played. A lot of people have fond memories of their first MMO and wish to recreate that feeling. If your first MMO was Everquest or FFXI, you are probably much more inclined to want more group based progression. However, if your first MMO was WoW or most MMOs that have come out since, you are probably going to want more solo based progression.



     

    WoW has forced grouping.

    WoW doesn't start until level 80. You can't solo heroic instances or solo raids.

    If you want the good gear, the only way you can get it is to group.



    Even if you go the arena route, you need a group to do arenas  

     Yeah, wouldn't it be nice if you could do 1vs1 arenas for gear, or some kinda raiding solo? Well it couldn't happen though seeing some classes just can't beat others. Well from what i remember. Nice thought though, That's kinda what i was talking about.

      

  • savsnoopsavsnoop Smyrna, GAPosts: 12Member

    Originally posted by uquipu

     




    Originally posted by Gerahben

    I have a theory that many player's opinions on this matter is derived from the first MMO they played. A lot of people have fond memories of their first MMO and wish to recreate that feeling. If your first MMO was Everquest or FFXI, you are probably much more inclined to want more group based progression. However, if your first MMO was WoW or most MMOs that have come out since, you are probably going to want more solo based progression.



    WoW has forced grouping.

    WoW doesn't start until level 80. You can't solo heroic instances or solo raids.

    If you want the good gear, the only way you can get it is to group.



    Even if you go the arena route, you need a group to do arenas

    Ok lets get off the rere train for a moment, don't blast someones post off of a partical of information you ripped out of the paragraph. He did not say it didn't have group only content, he mentioned for people that want to solo the entire game it has plenty of content for them. Just because YOU feel it starts at 80 does not mean others do..  Get off your I know everything about MMO's horse.

    Snoop

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by Murashu

    Originally posted by chrisel


    Originally posted by Murashu


    Originally posted by JthX

    I think most of us here agree that being forced to do anything is not fun. I'm still curious why the OP is worried about forced grouping when only one game we've seen mentioned in this thread so far comes close to forcing anyone to group. Most games today punish you for grouping.

    Not correct. Most games actually gives more to those who groups, even though majority would like it different. Even WoW.

    I'd say WoW has a lot more content specifically for the soloer than it does strictly for groupers. Using the wowhead.com numbers WoW has 8192 quests, but only 336 (4%) of them are group quests.

    So? Quests are irrelevant for dungeons. 100% of the dungeons are group oriented. You cannot solo an instance unless you are vastly outlevel it (meaning no xp nor level appropriate loot).

  • MurashuMurashu Ft Rucker, ALPosts: 1,394Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Murashu


    Originally posted by chrisel


    Originally posted by Murashu


    Originally posted by JthX

    I think most of us here agree that being forced to do anything is not fun. I'm still curious why the OP is worried about forced grouping when only one game we've seen mentioned in this thread so far comes close to forcing anyone to group. Most games today punish you for grouping.

    Not correct. Most games actually gives more to those who groups, even though majority would like it different. Even WoW.

    I'd say WoW has a lot more content specifically for the soloer than it does strictly for groupers. Using the wowhead.com numbers WoW has 8192 quests, but only 336 (4%) of them are group quests.

    So? Quests are irrelevant for dungeons. 100% of the dungeons are group oriented. You cannot solo an instance unless you are vastly outlevel it (meaning no xp nor level appropriate loot).

    You are correct, group dungeons are not soloable, just like raid dungeons are not groupable. But...the majority of the game is designed specifically for the soloer and a very small portion for groupers and even smaller portion for raiders.

    www.agonysend.org

  • uquipuuquipu Roma, PAPosts: 1,516Member


    Originally posted by Murashu

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Murashu


    Originally posted by chrisel


    Originally posted by Murashu


    Originally posted by JthX
    I think most of us here agree that being forced to do anything is not fun. I'm still curious why the OP is worried about forced grouping when only one game we've seen mentioned in this thread so far comes close to forcing anyone to group. Most games today punish you for grouping.


    Not correct. Most games actually gives more to those who groups, even though majority would like it different. Even WoW.


    I'd say WoW has a lot more content specifically for the soloer than it does strictly for groupers. Using the wowhead.com numbers WoW has 8192 quests, but only 336 (4%) of them are group quests.


    So? Quests are irrelevant for dungeons. 100% of the dungeons are group oriented. You cannot solo an instance unless you are vastly outlevel it (meaning no xp nor level appropriate loot).


    You are correct, group dungeons are not soloable, just like raid dungeons are not groupable. But...the majority of the game is designed specifically for the soloer and a very small portion for groupers and even smaller portion for raiders.

    1 out of 20 quests is hardly a small portion.

    Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren

  • MMO_DoubterMMO_Doubter Bedford, NSPosts: 5,056Member

    Originally posted by chrisel

    Originally posted by Murashu


    Originally posted by JthX

    I think most of us here agree that being forced to do anything is not fun. I'm still curious why the OP is worried about forced grouping when only one game we've seen mentioned in this thread so far comes close to forcing anyone to group. Most games today punish you for grouping.

    Not correct. Most games actually gives more to those who groups, even though majority would like it different. Even WoW.

    No. That's not correct. Kill xp is divided. Quest chains are a nightmare to synchronize, and random drop quests take forever.

    "" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2

  • tharkthark FalunPosts: 1,147Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Torik


    Originally posted by thark
    We can kid ourselves as much as we want, the only way to actually get a community to flourish is when grouping is more/less mandatory or atleast the biggest part of the game..
    I have nothing against small tasks or leisure hunting solo, but If a MMO has it's largest part of content soloable it won't work in the long run.

    Unless it's requiered or forced, players won't group/talk or communicate in any way unless there is a problem with the game or something like that..
    After this players in a solo MMO will get bored much faster, and the lifespan of such a game is therefor shorten, unless the developers manage to get new players that constantly will enter..
    But as the years pass by so does the game, I can just imagine the flood of new players that will enter Champions Online after it has been out a year...:)
    Times has changed, I was in EQ and EQ2 for years, nowadays I keep my interesst in a game a few months tops, when you can just breeze trough a game solo, everything goes faster and there isnt really much chance for a real community to build up..
    /junker

    Completly disagree.  You can get some amazing communities to flourish where grouping for combat is the least aspect of the community.   In turn the fastest way to ruin such a community is to make their only viable progression choice to be repetetive grouping. 
    Communities form around shared intrests and/or ideologies.  If the only reason for a community to form is because of a 'group or quit playing' requirement then the community will only last as long as that requirement stays in place.  When the need for grouping is removed that community will fall apart while communities formed on other interests will continue. 
    'forced grouping' is the anti-social way of forming communities which is likely why the 'old school' players have such a hard time finding solid communities.  Comunities formed on enjoying the game in turn last way longer and have a much deeper impact.

    PLease tell me what this game is called , because I do not believe you ?

    I have played most of the new MMO's on the market part from the asian Free to play games, but many of those aswell, In none of them I have had the urge to stay longer than the free month or maybe a few months after that..

    The proof for this is all in the latest crop of games, that let's you solo all the way to the top but also has a small portion group content available like LOTRO, Age Of Conan, Champions Online, Star Trek Online etc.

    These games all have more solo content than group content, basically in some of them you are even "forced to do some solo quest chains to reach some group quest, ofcourse you can easily add a few friends to help you out on your solo missin but that will make this content so trivial it's not even funny, basically forced solo play :)

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,757Member Uncommon

    So all the other F2P games which now have no population and were solo orientated, what about them?

  • arcdevilarcdevil fjkdoao, NEPosts: 864Member

    Originally posted by Dixi01

    WoW, if we speak about equipment, not leveling, is also group/raid game

    WoW made a genious move which funnily is what all idiots complain about... periodic gear sweeping balances. with every patch they introduced new, better gear easily available for the solo crowd equivalent or even better than the former "top" gear , so everybody can face the new content with a chance to do it, instead of continuously lagging behind to the point where its just not worth it to play anymore.

     

    stupid games that dont do this? warhammer, once you hit tier 4 (32) you are playing in the same field with the rest of RR80 full sovereign dudes, who chop you and your whole party to pieces in 0,0004 seconds flat...and you'll have to deal with that for the whole year that will take you to get to the point where they are.

     

    there's a reason to why games like WoW have kept millions of subs for years, and games like WAR hit the rock bottom and STILL are bleeding subs like a hemophiliac whose arm was axed

  • astrob0yastrob0y stockholmPosts: 702Member

    Originally posted by arcdevil

    Originally posted by Dixi01

    WoW, if we speak about equipment, not leveling, is also group/raid game

    WoW made a genious move which funnily is what all idiots complain about... periodic gear sweeping balances. with every patch they introduced new, better gear easily available for the solo crowd equivalent or even better than the former "top" gear , so everybody can face the new content with a chance to do it, instead of continuously lagging behind to the point where its just not worth it to play anymore.

     

    stupid games that dont do this? warhammer, once you hit tier 4 (32) you are playing in the same field with the rest of RR80 full sovereign dudes, who chop you and your whole party to pieces in 0,0004 seconds flat...and you'll have to deal with that for the whole year that will take you to get to the point where they are.

     

    there's a reason to why games like WoW have kept millions of subs for years, and games like WAR hit the rock bottom and STILL are bleeding subs like a hemophiliac whose arm was axed

    yes yes! to bad haters gonna hate

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  • qombiqombi Unknown, LAPosts: 1,180Member

    Originally posted by Shedarii

    One word: Ryzom

     

    Longer explanation:

     

    Ryzom is a MMO with pretty much a dead population. Its heavily group focused. It does not work, because most of the people are in the higher end of the game...and the game has such a low pop, even the trial isle is hard to find groups in.

     

    See the problem? In a heavy group focused MMO, its great at release when everyone can easily find groups...in the long run, it does not work. The people either move on to the higher end content, so newbies have a hard time grouping and therefor a very hard time doing anything in-game. Or the population dies out so much, no one can find a group...and that does not work either.

     

    I don't like easy mode solo either, like in WoW its IQ dropping easy. But a forced/heavy group focused MMO doesn't work either.

    I think if we are deciding that lower end content needs to be done quickly to get up to speed with all other players, then there should be no levels. Why not just have a game start where normally people consider the finish line where gear collection begins from dungeons and raids?

    If leveling has to be trivial, fast, and solo. I don't even want to do it. Why have it if it means nothing.

  • qombiqombi Unknown, LAPosts: 1,180Member

    Originally posted by astrob0y

    Originally posted by arcdevil


    Originally posted by Dixi01

    WoW, if we speak about equipment, not leveling, is also group/raid game

    WoW made a genious move which funnily is what all idiots complain about... periodic gear sweeping balances. with every patch they introduced new, better gear easily available for the solo crowd equivalent or even better than the former "top" gear , so everybody can face the new content with a chance to do it, instead of continuously lagging behind to the point where its just not worth it to play anymore.

     

    stupid games that dont do this? warhammer, once you hit tier 4 (32) you are playing in the same field with the rest of RR80 full sovereign dudes, who chop you and your whole party to pieces in 0,0004 seconds flat...and you'll have to deal with that for the whole year that will take you to get to the point where they are.

     

    there's a reason to why games like WoW have kept millions of subs for years, and games like WAR hit the rock bottom and STILL are bleeding subs like a hemophiliac whose arm was axed

    yes yes! to bad haters gonna hate

    Internet Gangster!

  • HedeonHedeon GraestedPosts: 954Member Uncommon

    to me an MMO should be full time forced grouping, for combat, have the solo content be something completely diffrent but still give something to advance in, it is one of the aspects that makes MMOs great, that there is choices in what to do, never played SWG, but reading about it would wish MMOdevs would put the same kind of efford into non combat side of their game....without sacrifice combat group content.

    know that a full time group only combat MMO properbly wouldnt have the big community tho...since its oh so painful to spend 10 min on gather a group, and sure if you dont advance in combat you  ofc dont fell like you got anywhere at all right. 

    would say its bad design tho if there is absolutely nothing to  do solo. did quite like it how it used to be in EQ2 at release where you could fight solo but you would lvl very slow, with just a few quests to do(which is changed, alot of old group quests been made solo), join a group and the game suddenly much more fun and xp going way faster too, which is the realistic compromise.

    lvling to top lvl solo is just boring, especially because all the mobs you kill is extremely easy, unless you d consider it hard because you cant figure to get 1 at the time, if aint geared or lvled to take more than that. but if its the most effective or close to as effective ppl like me wont group because of the lazyness, and ofc arh just missing 3 of the 10 rats to get that uber item in the quest....the group content drops will be out dated in 10 min anyway, so why care to make the group. ofc then some sit whine there aint any groups, or never any groups that need there class. but would never dream of starting one themself.

    more forced grouping in MMOs please. well not forced just make it the clearly best choice for progression in your combat class.

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by arcdevil

    Originally posted by Dixi01

    WoW, if we speak about equipment, not leveling, is also group/raid game

    WoW made a genious move which funnily is what all idiots complain about... periodic gear sweeping balances. with every patch they introduced new, better gear easily available for the solo crowd equivalent or even better than the former "top" gear , so everybody can face the new content with a chance to do it, instead of continuously lagging behind to the point where its just not worth it to play anymore.  ummm NOT true..  When WoW introduces a new content patch, they do increase the rewards for easy epics, but it's always ONE notch below what you need for current content.. Best you can get from dungeons are 232's, and some frost upgrades that take forever.. and then you still have some gear that is stuck at 226.. THIS will not get you into an easy invite to ICC.. This does however get you geared for TOC, that inturn will allow you the needed upgrades to "reliably" go into ICC..   MAKE no mistake that by doing 5 man will never get you geared for current RAID content..

     

    stupid games that dont do this? warhammer, once you hit tier 4 (32) you are playing in the same field with the rest of RR80 full sovereign dudes, who chop you and your whole party to pieces in 0,0004 seconds flat...and you'll have to deal with that for the whole year that will take you to get to the point where they are.

     

    there's a reason to why games like WoW have kept millions of subs for years, and games like WAR hit the rock bottom and STILL are bleeding subs like a hemophiliac whose arm was axed

    IMO WoW has kept their subs because it's a SOLO easy game dumbed down to the lowest denominator.. They keep using the same "chase the carrot" mechanics that 90% have player base keep chasing thinking they are going to catch it.. lmao   I will give credit to Blizzard tho for attracting the simplest of minds and getting them hooked..  Great marketing tool..

  • IsaneIsane EnglandPosts: 2,629Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Buttermilch

    There is another reason, why enforced grouping doesn't work in addition to one you mentioned.

    Sometimes I just want to log in for let's say 30 minutes, playing a short session. It wouldn't make any sense to have to look for a group. I'd have to spend 5-15 minutes to group up. And the other people would be pissed if I had to go away within the next 20 minutes...

    There is another reason why enforced grouping does not work for you !!!!!!!

    People should play games as designed if they do not suit your playstyle or available time then you are playing the wrong game. Unless as many  you are a standard carebear who wants games to pander to your vision, whilst this is fine it is not practical for the developers, Please play to the developers vision anything else ruins games.

    You will not get the problem above playing solo games designed to meet your available gametime.

     

    I personally feel the genre as was is near dead, the MMOs out today are just not the same genre I used to play. Gameplay and fun has dissapeared, and the majority of players seem to want such dumbed down gameplay it is not worth the effort.

     

    ________________________________________________________
    Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel 

  • scuubeedooscuubeedoo ZagrebPosts: 458Member

    When i log for 30 mins in a MMO, what i like to do personally is crafting and/or gathering, not grouping or soloing. Of course that implies that the game should have a decent crafting system. That's why i like my MMOs to have everything, PvP, PvE, crafting, events, roleplaying - like they used to.

    "Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars – combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."

  • ReklawReklaw Am.Posts: 6,474Member Uncommon

    To me MMORPG's should be about freedom and nothing should be forced but alway's a choice. So to me anything forced isn't what I want from my MMORPG experiance. We already have and I also play tons of regular multiplayer games to get that forced feel which suites that genre.

  • HyanmenHyanmen KolkkalaPosts: 5,354Member Uncommon

    I'm wondering why everyone wants their games to be mediocre.

    "Housing is standard in most mmo's."
    - yolteotl79

  • JosherJosher Deerfield beach, FLPosts: 2,818Member

    Remove FFXI's Asian player base and what have you?  How much is it thriving in EU and the US, because thats all that matters.   How well a game is doing must be based on how its received in every market.

  • ChrisMatternChrisMattern Alexandria, VAPosts: 1,478Member


    Originally posted by Josher
    Remove FFXI's Asian player base and what have you?  How much is it thriving in EU and the US, because thats all that matters.   How well a game is doing must be based on how its received in every market.

    Remove FFXI's Asian player base and you have...about 250,000 players, which is better than 90% of MMORPGs. SE does a census every year and the player base is consistently around 50% Western. Incidentally, why are EU and the US "all that matters"? And don't say "because they pay subscription fees" because FFXI's Asian (Japanese, actually, FFXI was never released in Asia outside of Japan) players pay exactly the same subscription fees as US and EU players.

    BTW, if a game must be based on how it's received in *every* market, it follows that ones with *no* Asian player base are likewise worthless, correct?

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member

    Originally posted by Plutonicwoes

    Originally posted by SaintViktor

    FFXI worked for how many years now ?

    This.

    FFXI has had a steady 500,000 players for around 7 years now.  It's ALL group.

    Perhaps they just don't work with your younger generation of gamers?

    I didn't play FFXI.  But as far as I know the reason why FFXI works is because people are forced to relevel sub class.  You can't expect every MMO to work that way. 

    And to the poster above me.  FFXI isn't even realse is Asia(besides Japan of crouse).  There's no chinese version of FFXI.  People in chinese Area cant' even register for FFXI without using proxy.  And North America FFXI don't even accept 95% of the chinese credit card.

  • MelonCrazyMelonCrazy Dix, ILPosts: 55Member

    Originally posted by thark

     




    Originally posted by Torik





    Originally posted by thark

    We can kid ourselves as much as we want, the only way to actually get a community to flourish is when grouping is more/less mandatory or atleast the biggest part of the game..

    I have nothing against small tasks or leisure hunting solo, but If a MMO has it's largest part of content soloable it won't work in the long run.



    Unless it's requiered or forced, players won't group/talk or communicate in any way unless there is a problem with the game or something like that..

    After this players in a solo MMO will get bored much faster, and the lifespan of such a game is therefor shorten, unless the developers manage to get new players that constantly will enter..

    But as the years pass by so does the game, I can just imagine the flood of new players that will enter Champions Online after it has been out a year...:)

    Times has changed, I was in EQ and EQ2 for years, nowadays I keep my interesst in a game a few months tops, when you can just breeze trough a game solo, everything goes faster and there isnt really much chance for a real community to build up..

    /junker






    Completly disagree.  You can get some amazing communities to flourish where grouping for combat is the least aspect of the community.   In turn the fastest way to ruin such a community is to make their only viable progression choice to be repetetive grouping. 

    Communities form around shared intrests and/or ideologies.  If the only reason for a community to form is because of a 'group or quit playing' requirement then the community will only last as long as that requirement stays in place.  When the need for grouping is removed that community will fall apart while communities formed on other interests will continue. 

    'forced grouping' is the anti-social way of forming communities which is likely why the 'old school' players have such a hard time finding solid communities.  Comunities formed on enjoying the game in turn last way longer and have a much deeper impact.




    PLease tell me what this game is called , because I do not believe you ?

    I have played most of the new MMO's on the market part from the asian Free to play games, but many of those aswell, In none of them I have had the urge to stay longer than the free month or maybe a few months after that..

    The proof for this is all in the latest crop of games, that let's you solo all the way to the top but also has a small portion group content available like LOTRO, Age Of Conan, Champions Online, Star Trek Online etc.

    These games all have more solo content than group content, basically in some of them you are even "forced to do some solo quest chains to reach some group quest, ofcourse you can easily add a few friends to help you out on your solo missin but that will make this content so trivial it's not even funny, basically forced solo play :)

    And look how all those MMOs turned out especially STO, AOC, Champions, And WAR not doing so well are they?

  • MelonCrazyMelonCrazy Dix, ILPosts: 55Member

    Originally posted by scuubeedoo

    When i log for 30 mins in a MMO, what i like to do personally is crafting and/or gathering, not grouping or soloing. Of course that implies that the game should have a decent crafting system. That's why i like my MMOs to have everything, PvP, PvE, crafting, events, roleplaying - like they used to.

    But you know we can't have good things like that when there are other players whining about not having time to do these things so they want them removed or dumbed down to the point they become trivial useless features.

  • KabonKabon ZürichPosts: 58Member Uncommon

    Why do we need Multiplayer games if all you wanna do is soloing anyway . Just go play some single player game n solo all ur way thru it . A Multiplayer game needs a reason to not solo, and that would be make grouping worth it. Give Bigger rewards loot and Xp wise . Keep Soloing an option for ppls that just logon for 30 mins if the urge is there but ultimatively make it Group friendlier. If all you wanna do is just solo and never group you dont need a Multiplayer Game at all. But if u ever wanna group you need a reason to do so wich would be cause its worth it . Soloing is for the weak who just likes everything now princesses and princes . Yea sure get your raid loot solo and what else, just for what reason if everyone can solo the best and the fastest why should anyone even group at all. So all just solo and the Multiplayer part would be just to Compare ur gear but u actually would never put it to use with somone else its all just for show. Solo is the downfall of todays Mmorpgs . Every game that lets u reach the ultimate goals solo surely doesnt life long.

    I kinda dont see the reason why grouping would be bad for a Mmorpg its actually the opposite. Its not about forcing its about make it worthwhile more then soloing if that doesnt fit ur taste ...just go play single player ... mantra repeat 3th

    i guess its all about the fucking PVP wich is a new feature of every stupid new game PVP Yes so we get the crowd ohh yea .and to be strong in pvp i need to be able to solo fast to max n gear up so i can roxxors the others i cant waiiiit. Put in some castel raids for meaningless rewards and some grindpoints ..and then watch your customer Side A Raid Castle B And Side B Raid Castle A and vice versa till all the castle belonged to everyone about 100000 million times ..and all been happy about mass slaugthering without brain .. if at least that part would need some tactics ( i didn play Daoc in RvR ever ) at lamx lvl all i do is collect more gear and better gear and i have no other way to get stronger how boring todays games r just cause of balance in pvp .. if you played a game for 7 Years ..and slaugthered virtually 100000000000million mobs at max lvl and all u get is some new shit gear somone who just joined can get in a week ... no thanks .. Alternate Advancment for max lvl or thers no reason to stay there .

  • downtoearthdowntoearth cedar falls, IAPosts: 3,558Member

    it worked in ffxi so meh. only mmo to hold my attention for a year. quit cause of money reasons >< then couldnt get back into it

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