General: Crafting Gameplay

Stradden · March 2010

MMORPG.com's Scott Jennings turns his sights this week on turning raw data into processed data for fun and profit. Well, profit, anyway.

A topic that doesn’t really get discussed much regarding MMOs is that of crafting, or the art of taking parts you get from other parts and clicking a widget and having something theoretically valuable pop out, like candy. Maybe. Also, a line should move from left to right at some point.

I’m only being a touch sarcastic here. Crafting has traditionally been one of the most tedious parts of MMO gameplay, and there are actually some fairly good reasons why.

First off, why does crafting even exist in MMOs? Like most other things in MMOs, there are different reasons for different people.

Because some players want to be budding capitalists and run a profit from taking raw materials and turning them into candy. These are what I’ll call the merchants. To them the buying, selling and trading of the crafting game *is* their game. It’s why they play.

Because some players want candy and may happen to have raw materials laying around. These are the hobbyists. They don’t really want a profit from what they do. They just want candy.

Because some players are members of guilds or other large groups of players and have been designated as responsible for supplying players with whatever consumable items the group needs to play the high-end game. These are the quartermasters. They see crafting as a means to an end - making their team 3% more efficient.

Read Crafting Gameplay.

MMO_Doubter · March 2010

A LOT of people ENJOY crafting.

I still remember the pride I felt when I was grouped with a warrior who was wearing a piece of armour which I had crafted in WoW. It's a rare experience in WoW, for sure, as the great majority of gear is just skill point grind fodder.

I'm still waiting for a game which gets crafting right, but even WoW has SOME entertainment value from some of the crafting professions.

Sovrath · March 2010

I can't stand crafting and rarely if ever do it.

However I could imagine a system where I think it would be fun. I had made a similar post elsewhere:

I'll tell you that I hate crafting. Despise it. Loath it. If it was removed from every game that I play from now until death I would rejoice. Probably pay more money per month on my own just to thank the game maker.

That's how much I hate it. And I'm being nice. I rarely if NEVER craft in games.

However, I noticed something a few years ago while messing with a neverwinter nights trainer for characters.

Among many of the things it had was the ability to change all sorts of things on the weapons and armor.

You could change 3 parts of the looks of a sword (pommel, Hilt and Blade Shape ... maybe even different parts of the blade) or change several parts on the armor along with simple dying of the item. This was using the in game art that the toolset had.

I would redesign the weapons and armor for hours. I suddenly realized I don't hate crafting in the sense of "making something new". I hate gathering bits upon bits that make more bits so that I can reproduce some in game item that will be replaced by some boss drop.

so....

My utopian crafting system has more to do with a crafting mini-game, maybe something along the same lines of the game "Enigmo" as far as manipulating crafting elements, and a way to create "designs" so that there is control over the look of the item. Or in the case of a potion "what" that potion actually does.

Zice · March 2010

I was a bit disappointed A Tale in the Desert wasn't mention, as I think it not only surpasses Second Life, it also offers no real world monetary value for crafted items. It's a critical distinction which sets A Tale in the Desert apart from Second Life, and similarly from just about every MMO ever made. In its rawest form (when a new 'Tale' is beginning) crafted items aren't even worth in-game money because there isn't any in-game money until players craft that as well.

In a way it's a bit like a Sim City of MMO crafting, where the tasks are completed simply for the appeal of attempting them and the value of every item is reflected only by the time invested to create it. The drive of many players is simply to construct this or that object, to design and create a campsite or town, or to access more difficult constructions later on. I daresay it proved to be a more interesting and infectious model than any current or past MMO.

Although I would say the real thing crafting always seems to lack is individualization. Since we live post-industrial revolution we tend to forget that two items made by hand are almost never identical. This tends to drive crafting into the merchant's realm, as you mentioned, because as every player product is merely an identical copy of another the appeal, or the challenge if you will, becomes a question of simply who can move the most units and collect the most coin. Lost is the art of who actually crafts the best unit, the most artistic unit (although SL and ATitD attempt to recreate this), the most efficient unit, or the most unusual unit.

I'd still like to see a game that actually gave that much individualization to the crafter and not the merchant, so that the two became distinct roles again rather than one simply devouring the other. They certainly represent different skillsets in the real world and it creates a dynamic that's usually fun to play with.

Slineer · March 2010

I agree with the DAoC crafting presenting a barrier to crafting making master crafters a bit rare. Which is a great thing, a rare crafter means hes in high demand and can turn profit and in some cases even become famous on a server for his wares. However I disagree with the way DAoC did this. A green bar going across your screen is mind numbingly boring and pointless. I wholeheartedly agree mastering a craft should be a time sink, but just because its a time sink doesn't mean it has to be boring. I think the key to good crafting will be making a system that only allows dedicated crafters to achieve the highest level, but also makes it a fun experience for them too.

Moving on, crafted goods also have to be in demand, you find this to be more the case in pvp oriented games though. As in PvE oriented games, you need to get something for killing the monster and if you just got better stuff from a crafter, whats the point?? Mortal Online has a rather great crafting system to be honest. The way it works is crafters get to pick which materials and how much to use to make a given item. What this means is each item is different and there are litteraly millions of possibilities. As far as I know, players cant see the exact make up of a crafted item and therefor certain crafters will eventually be known for their superior knowledge of materials and constantly have people going back to them, or in the competitive aspect of the game, attempting to steal their recipe. I'm not sure if this has been done before, but if you know other games like this, please let me know.

Also, second life does feature great crafting, in the aspect that you can truly express yourself and make something unique and original. With that in mind, APB also promises to give designers this same feel, allowing them to use the same tools used by developers to make art and clothing, which can then be sold on auction. They also promise to have a leader board showcasing the top designers (I'm not sure how this will work but I assume it will be based on sales and not judged by artistic appeal). However, being purely cosmetic, I wonder what the demand will be for such things.

I think crafting is typically a secondary thought when it comes to MMO's, however I feel it should be one of the primary concerns. To do crafting right, you need to meddle in a lot of other fields. You cant have superior loot that is easily obtained overshadowing your craftable goods. You also need to have diversity in crafts, and when this includes consumables that influence pvp outcomes and pve difficulty, you need to be very careful to ensure balance. Anyway you look at it, if you want a true craft experience, it needs to be one of the primary concerns of the developers as it will have major impact on the entire game.

Venger · March 2010

Crafting hell non combat skills in general have be so very bad for so long. I remember the pride I felt when I finally gmed my first crafting skill in UO way back when and there was actually a market for my wares *gasp*. But sadly now everything revolves around killing. Even crafting is little more then an expansion the combat system rather then a true independant system itself. Everyone has to have their leet rare drop that they had to run the same instance a million times for.

ericbelser · March 2010

I should admit that I have been a crafter in nearly every game I have played...for a variety of reasons.

That said, the article has a few things wrong with it....

Everquest had neglected crafting for a long time, but it did briefly have a massive resurgence around Luclin where it was very profitable, desired and useful. Not because you could make the "best" gear but because you could make stuff that was much more accessable than drops and was "good enough" for twinks.

DAoC's crafting system was essential to the RvR aspect of that game and up until the infamous ToA, crafted items were the top tier of gear....but the crafting system itself was mind-numbingly tedious and painful. SWG (pre-nge) had the best crafting system of any MMO to date...but it also had lots of bugs, loopholes and ultimately exploits. The early item dupes, credit dupes and other exploits did a lot to damage the economy of SWG.

Anarchy Onliine effectively had no crafting systems worth messing with and WoW's crafting was a relatively pointless joke compared to what you could easily get from drops. it's worth noting in here that EVE has a very simple crafting system, but has the most involved and intricate economy of any MMO.

In the newer games, EQ2 took an interesting approach and made crafting more interactive and involved than most games...but they failed to make the products important enough/good enough or unique enough. WAR took the WoW approach even further and basically ignored crafting.

I also think his categories of crafters missed at least one: craftsman - people who make stuff because they want to make things for people and be known. SWG was a great example of this, there were people who specialized in making "the best" pistols or whatever and derived great pride from being known as "the guy" to buy from.

Sovrath · March 2010

Originally posted by SlineerAs in PvE oriented games, you need to get something for killing the monster and if you just got better stuff from a crafter, whats the point??

In that other player made thread called "what is your utopian crafting system" one of the posters mentions that boss drops should things that master crafters could use.

I really think that is the way to go. So you kill a boss and get some sort of old legendary sword. The sword is not usable but a master crafter coud salvage its metal, gems, what have you and make something else.

If it was a sci-fi game you could get a piece of advanced alien technology that the crafter could turn into something.

Otherwise, boss drops tend to marginalize crafters. Of course, if crafters were allowed to make items that were "almost" as powerful then that couuld work as well.

But when crafted gear is superseded, and by a large margin, by drops then why would anyone want something crafted?

Bob_Blawblaw · March 2010

You just sat there and it was fun?

Postal13 · March 2010

Where is http://www.mmorpg.com/LINK supposed to point to?

Or is this just an elaborate pre-April Fool's joke against us crafters?

Codenak · March 2010

Ave, Scott Jennings, Ave!

Kyleran · March 2010

Originally posted by Postal13

Where is http://www.mmorpg.com/LINK supposed to point to?

Or is this just an elaborate pre-April Fool's joke against us crafters?

I think Sovrath managed to finally get Crafting expunged from MMORPG's.

magicaldork · March 2010

SWG crafting in the first couple months of the games original release was a blast.

Armorsmith and tailor. You needed material gathered from toons hunting, minerals mined, drop items, and items created by other crafters in order to advance your craft.

I was a bit of everything I guess. I did the barter system at first. You want x armor, ok bring me y units of this leather. I asked for 3-5 times the amount of material required. that way I could make more and sell it, while still leveling my craft.

Once I was able to craft the top-end armor (well top end at the time) I would barter for factories, and harvest equipment from architects. They would get crates of top-end armor in exchange. They help me, I help them, it worked.

Then we found out how to customize the armor by using certain resources. Then the really good stuff was made. My weaponsmith friend had pistols that were doing more damage then heavy artilery weapons. (Ah, the good ol pre-nerf combat days).

The ultimate compliment for a crafter was breaking the crafting system. I think it was 3 weeks into the games release. Crafted items were failing to be made, because the game ran out of unique ID-codes for the crafted items. Same thing happend a few weeks later with factories.

Also, a good craft system can overload a server. Selling x armor at 9pm, be there. Just about everyone on the server was there and we crashed the game server. That was a fun chat with a CSR, oopps. Then when the money was tallied, I had more credits then the system could handle. Ah, capitalism at its finest.

Then came WOW. No crafting was really needed for stuff. Raids, boss drops, faction items, were better then everything you could craft. Yeah, there were cosmetic tweeks you could get, but for the non-hardcore-I-am-going-to-be-a-min-max-player you did not need any of these things.

I enjoy games with crafting, but only if they are done well, and the items crafted are needed by 99% of the combat players. I still with WOW had raid drops that required a crafter to assemble, or turn on, or something. Give us something useful to do.

LilandraF · March 2010

I can't follow the LINK to read the rest of the article, but in case this wasn't mentioned in it:

I would say that Dofus has an excellent crafting system in place. I haven't played the game in a couple years, so they may have made tweaks to it, but I loved the way you could look up and hire a crafter to make something for you in that game. There was an interactive screen where you could insert your ingredients and they could then craft the item and it would return the created item to your inventory. There was no risk of loss of items or materials by an untrustworthy crafter. The professions were varied and interesting, and the shop system they set up worked well with it.

I would love to see more games adopt a similar system for crafting.

Lil

NovaKayne · March 2010

Your link is broken OP.

As far as the article goes. I agree wholeheartedly on your reason for having a robust crafting mini-game within the main game itself.

However, I have one comment on your tongue-n-cheek one liners about watching the bar go from Left to Right.

How is in crafting watching the bar go from Left to Right any worse than in combat watching the bar go from Right to Left?

You make crafting sound so minimal when combat can be summed up in the same fashion. A good crafting game does require as much effort as a good combat game. Case in point, both of your examples for good crafting games and the good combat games. They each do 1 good but, the other seems to suffer for it!!!

Which is why I posted in another thread, if you had the 150 million that EA and Bioware are spending on KOTOR, you could use that same budget to come up with a game that splits the developement into the 2 camps ( combat and crafting ) then combine the best aspects of a WoW type of combat with the SWG type of crafting. Each doing 1 of the 2 aspects relatively well.

Let me also say that I for one would fall into the Hobbyist portion of the crafting game. Fun to toy with but, not necesarily my main focus in most games.

darev · March 2010

Originally posted by magicaldork
SWG crafting in the first couple months of the games original release was a blast.

Armorsmith and tailor. You needed material gathered from toons hunting, minerals mined, drop items, and items created by other crafters in order to advance your craft.

I was a bit of everything I guess. I did the barter system at first. You want x armor, ok bring me y units of this leather. I asked for 3-5 times the amount of material required. that way I could make more and sell it, while still leveling my craft.

Once I was able to craft the top-end armor (well top end at the time) I would barter for factories, and harvest equipment from architects. They would get crates of top-end armor in exchange. They help me, I help them, it worked.

Then we found out how to customize the armor by using certain resources. Then the really good stuff was made. My weaponsmith friend had pistols that were doing more damage then heavy artilery weapons. (Ah, the good ol pre-nerf combat days).

The ultimate compliment for a crafter was breaking the crafting system. I think it was 3 weeks into the games release. Crafted items were failing to be made, because the game ran out of unique ID-codes for the crafted items. Same thing happend a few weeks later with factories.

Also, a good craft system can overload a server. Selling x armor at 9pm, be there. Just about everyone on the server was there and we crashed the game server. That was a fun chat with a CSR, oopps. Then when the money was tallied, I had more credits then the system could handle. Ah, capitalism at its finest.

Then came WOW. No crafting was really needed for stuff. Raids, boss drops, faction items, were better then everything you could craft. Yeah, there were cosmetic tweeks you could get, but for the non-hardcore-I-am-going-to-be-a-min-max-player you did not need any of these things.

I enjoy games with crafting, but only if they are done well, and the items crafted are needed by 99% of the combat players. I still with WOW had raid drops that required a crafter to assemble, or turn on, or something. Give us something useful to do.

I still play SWG, primarily for the crafting. Between the continually hunting for the various resource types, and their stats changing every week or so, makes it one of the most frustrating, and fun, parts of the game for a lot of people, including myself.

If Galaxies had a crafting system like WOW, I would have never gotten addicted to the game 6 1/2 years ago.

Khalathwyr · March 2010

Need more games with crafting systems modeled after UO and early SWG. Good writeup.

Ashglonteri · March 2010

I am very curious why, with all this talk about crafting in MMORPG's, that Horizons ( now called Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted ) was not mentioned.

Yes it's an old game that has a checkered past, but it also has one of the best crafting systems in any mmorpg.

As was mentioned, the hobbyists love to craft, and in a PVE game like Istaria, crafting is of great importance, as this is how all players get their gear. There are no NPC's to purchase high level gear, nor would that be desired, as each player wants to but armor and weapons that match the needs of their toon's build.

Crafting was never a second thought in Istaria, but was designed from the beginning. There is no need to wish for Elite mobs in Istaria drop formulas that only master crafters can use, since that's what happens in Istaria. After 6+ years, they continue to add new items to make, to keep the crafters busy and happy.

If you LOVE to craft, and are looking for a less intense gaming experience, where what YOU do defines what you gat and how far you can go, you owe it to yourself to try out Istaria.

Nifa · March 2010

I miss SWG crafting. It's pretty much all I miss about the game since they (in my opinion) completely messed it up (Zombies? In Star Wars? Man, was I glad I left that game when I heard about that!), but oh man, do I miss it.

Conversely, I do not care for crafting in LoTRO, WoW, or pretty much any other game I have played since. Granted, I craft, but I do so because "x" person in my guild needs "y" items. I generally choose my crafting professions in games now to benefit the guild the most (Quartermaster) rather than because I actually enjoy them (as I did in SWG, where crafting was about 90% of my gameplay and I enjoyed it immensely).

I personally would like to see games veer away from what has now become the "standard" in crafting, because it's tedious and boring (to me, at least) and go back towards a UO or even an old-style SWG approach...but that takes time & money, so it's unlikely we'll see it anytime soon.

SwampRob · March 2010

Interesting article. I know some players that have a dedicated crafting alt, who supplies all the other alts. I tend to be one of those.

I never cared much for Wow's crafting. By and large, the items were far too inferior to what could be had through questing, and the majority of the few really good items were BoA. BoA for a crafted item! Absolutely moronic, imo. That means that only the crafter can make it and use it, so you'd better be the appropriate class or don't even bother.

Sovrath made a good point about the dangers of having crafted items superior to drops. As someone who enjoys crafting, I have to admit the wisdom of this. However, some games, like Lotro, let the dedicated crafter create items that are almost as good as the best drops. It takes quite of bit of time and resources to get your crafting to that point, but I like the idea. It gives those soloers, such as myself, another method to acquire top end items. Alternative options are a good thing.

Even though the crafting isn't very deep, my favorite MMO, City of Heroes, makes it possible for anyone to acquire any item. Rare recipe drops can and do happen at the top level, and you have an equal chance of getting them whether soloing or on a team. I wish more MMOs allowed players to get the items they want without forcing them to team up to do so. I'm not looking to make soloing superior, I just like the alternative option.

gonno · March 2010

The original crafting system in Vanguard was hands down my favorite. Tons of things that only crafters could make. A nice complex system of making slight variations on items. Boats were awesome, tons of crafted housing components and items. Every crafted item had a tag showing who made it. I havent seen a crafting system even close to it in other games.

But... then the dreaded sony deathtouch appeared and nerfed the heck out of virtually everything in vanguard, including crafting.

GozerTC · March 2010

Ugh really? You make mention of SWG's launch crafting and go on and on yet only give a passing mention to Eve Online? Honestly the fact that pretty much every friggin item in the EVE world can and is made by players means quite a bit!

Sure the actual act of crafing is pretty dull (I was a miner so I spent many an hour watching rocks get smaller and smaller. ) but the economic benefits and the ability to play the game in entirely non-combat roles deserves more than a footnote. Heck just hauling raw materials was a job in itself.

battleaxe · March 2010

Hate crafting - get rid of it. Use the developers wasting their time on it to create more, better content.

I play an mmo for the pew pew not the sew sew.

Isaak · March 2010

I've crafted in a few MMOs. (Wish planetside had some crafting/engineering/etc). WoW, while being a long and addicting game, has a weak crafting system.

Now, there are lots of professions. There are TONS of things you can make and a million different kinds of materials. Thats not the issue. It all sounds VERY robust.

The issues are:

1) utility. - crafting, no matter the profession, ends up being a money sink and waste of materials. MOST of the stuff you can make isn't useful to you, desirable by others or anywhere NEAR the best item for your level/class. I would say that the number is upwards of 95% wasted abilities. Who wants to make something that costs more in time and materials than simply leveling and running a dungeon would get you? no one does. This is why it is very rare to actually use anything you've crafted until end game. UG.

2) UGLY - srsly wow. How hard would it be to allow simple COLOR dyes? C'mon! Everything is the same and most of the time your armor doesn't make a set. The worst was Hellfire fruit-loops armor in BC but there are plenty of other examples.

3) illogical - I can be a master armorsmith. I can Make an epic/enchanted breastplate +158 stam....but I cannot repair it. I can't repair a lvl 1 PoS breastplate made of copper. I as a master armorsmith cannot make a better copper breastplate than the level 1 n00b smith? why? -

4) Not fun - between the wasted materials and costly (time wise especially) just to make 20 items that you don't need just to level a skill that, in the end, doesn't give you much of a leg up on anything. By the time mined and crafted 20 unobtanium breastplates, you've leveled past the point where the next useful item was. Why are there so many useless crafted items?

5) Results don't last - no matter what you craft, it is soon replaced. Because of the crappy quality and time involved in making it, the speed in which it is replaced further adds to the lack of enjoyment. That one cool pattern with the glowing sword of death? Yeah. next level...its crappier than the ugly garbage drops from mobs in the next zone.

In the END game, there are a few that you can make some money. Enchanting and Potions being the best. Some just SUCK. Glyphs, for example...Black Smithing is prety week. The best thign blacksmiths can do, is make belt sockets. Yay~

Clearly, crafting is not designed to make the game more fun. Its another time sink. Its a false sense of accomplisment. They dangle 1 or 2 worthy peices along the line to get you to keep it up. But other than that, its meant to get you to pay for another month of service cause you gotta get that next recipe.

If crafting made it more immersive and fun, it might, as the author said, run the risk of everyone doing it - and it might make the game easier (less time played = less money paid). WoW has a good solution to that. Discoveries. Only a few crafts have it...but when its there, then you only have a few alchemists who have discovered the useful +hit potion. Suddenly, MY alchemy is useful - desireable and unique. But the difficulty of obtaining useful recipes during the leveling phase makes it poitnless to acquire them. At max level, sure.

If you want me to spend countless hours and waste tons of materials. At least make it LAST or be unique (player housing? guild halls?). I'm supposed to be a hero, right? How about crafting that makes me feel like i've done soemthing heroic...instead of drudgery.

dirtyjoe78 · March 2010

I think a simple change could change WoWs crafting system frome useless to very worth while. For example a weaponsmith can create an item level 200 2hander but it is a generic epic and depending on what materials are used you can manipulate the stats. For example a Titansteel Destroyer has a damage range of 507-761, +124 str and +105 stam with 54 hit rating. Now instead of making this specific weapon with specific stats you can create a Titansteel Destroyer but you maybe add x amount of crit strike rating potions to add crit strike rating at the cost of some of the hit rating or being able to get rid of the hit entirely and have +25crit and +29 haste depending on what components you add. As item levels progress you can unlock, get as a drop, buy or somehow aquire a new generic weapon/armor template that you can manipulate the stats on so crafting is not a useless function.

This would give crafters the ability to compete with raid drops and be able to participate more in the game. Also making more items not BoP but making more items BoP so crafters can sell all of their wares instead of such a small percentage of crafted items being available for sale. I think some minor changes could make crafting more usefull and trading of item components between crafters much more relevant.

Edit: Crafted items dont have to necissairly be as powerfull as top end raid drops but at least give people the option of obtaining a crafted item that is on the level of but maybe not as good as a top end raid drop. This would prevent some of the drugery of running X dungeon or heroic a million times hoping for those Boots of Epic Ass Stomping just to lose a roll to nomeones alt and not have the necissary gear to advance with your peers.

pojung · March 2010

Now all we need are equal columns about PvE, PvP, overall gameplay, game mechanics ... of MMOs just like this one. The fun thing is when you break it into pieces, you can almost see a timeline, a trend. And I use 'almost' sparingly. Crafting, like most aspects in MMORPGs, has been on a decline. This column, while not entirely complete in its analysis, objectively portrays many aspects as to why.

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General: Crafting Gameplay

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General: Crafting Gameplay

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