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Just what the hell does "dumbed down" even mean anyway?

Jimmy_ScytheJimmy_Scythe Macomb, ILPosts: 3,586Member

Seriously! Look at the phrase. LOOK AT IT!!!!

The implication being that at one time a particular game was "intelligent" but has undergone some unholy voodoo and been turned into a version of Chutes and Ladders or, even worse, Ludo. This term is normally used in reference to a multiplatform game that was made for consoles and PC at the same time.

What's so confusing is when the term is applied to a brand new franchise that plays exactly the same on all platforms. How can you "dumb down" something that didn't even exsist previously? You can claim that one control type is less efficient than another,  but that isn't the same as watering down the core mechanics.

Let's take Command & Conquer 3 as an example. Both the PC and console versions of the game use the exact same maps, the exact same factions, the exact same unit caps, and the exact same units. What exactly was "dumbed down?" Same thing with Morrowind. Both the PC and XBox versions had the same maps, the same kind of first/third person minimal interface, the quests, the items, the same NPCs... If it's the exact same game at it's core, how can it be "dumbed down?"

You might be able to say this about a game that started out on the PC and was poorly ported to a console, like CiV 2 being placed on the PSX near the end of it's life cycle, but If it was developed for both the PC and consoles or it was a one-for-one port....

And while we're on the subject, was Assassin's Creed "smarted up" by being ported to the PC?

I'm calling bullshit on this term and it's use.

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Comments

  • huge_froglokhuge_froglok Nanticoke, PAPosts: 135Member
    Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe


    Seriously! Look at the phrase. LOOK AT IT!!!!
    The implication being that at one time a particular game was "intelligent" but has undergone some unholy voodoo and been turned into a version of Chutes and Ladders or, even worse, Ludo. This term is normally used in reference to a multiplatform game that was made for consoles and PC at the same time.
    What's so confusing is when the term is applied to a brand new franchise that plays exactly the same on all platforms. How can you "dumb down" something that didn't even exsist previously? You can claim that one control type is less efficient than another,  but that isn't the same as watering down the core mechanics.
    Let's take Command & Conquer 3 as an example. Both the PC and console versions of the game use the exact same maps, the exact same factions, the exact same unit caps, and the exact same units. What exactly was "dumbed down?" Same thing with Morrowind. Both the PC and XBox versions had the same maps, the same kind of first/third person minimal interface, the quests, the items, the same NPCs... If it's the exact same game at it's core, how can it be "dumbed down?"
    You might be able to say this about a game that started out on the PC and was poorly ported to a console, like CiV 2 being placed on the PSX near the end of it's life cycle, but If it was developed for both the PC and consoles or it was a one-for-one port....
    And while we're on the subject, was Assassin's Creed "smarted up" by being ported to the PC?
    I'm calling bullshit on this term and it's use.

    I don't know what it means on those games.. Probably refer to the fact that the interfaces became simpler because they have to use a controller?  The controls would definitely be dumbed down.

    In terms of MMORPGs though, it refers to the fact that older MMORPGs used to require you to use your head.  For instance, older MMORPGs didn't have minimaps, didn't have arrows taking you straight to where you need to go.  They didn't give you directions all the time, keep you taksed. 

    MMORPGs are definitely dumbed down, so much to the point they are no longer fun.  What is next? Will the game play itself?  Maybe a game that plays itself would become more popular than WoW

  • kaiser3282kaiser3282 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,660Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by huge_froglok

    Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe


    Seriously! Look at the phrase. LOOK AT IT!!!!
    The implication being that at one time a particular game was "intelligent" but has undergone some unholy voodoo and been turned into a version of Chutes and Ladders or, even worse, Ludo. This term is normally used in reference to a multiplatform game that was made for consoles and PC at the same time.
    What's so confusing is when the term is applied to a brand new franchise that plays exactly the same on all platforms. How can you "dumb down" something that didn't even exsist previously? You can claim that one control type is less efficient than another,  but that isn't the same as watering down the core mechanics.
    Let's take Command & Conquer 3 as an example. Both the PC and console versions of the game use the exact same maps, the exact same factions, the exact same unit caps, and the exact same units. What exactly was "dumbed down?" Same thing with Morrowind. Both the PC and XBox versions had the same maps, the same kind of first/third person minimal interface, the quests, the items, the same NPCs... If it's the exact same game at it's core, how can it be "dumbed down?"
    You might be able to say this about a game that started out on the PC and was poorly ported to a console, like CiV 2 being placed on the PSX near the end of it's life cycle, but If it was developed for both the PC and consoles or it was a one-for-one port....
    And while we're on the subject, was Assassin's Creed "smarted up" by being ported to the PC?
    I'm calling bullshit on this term and it's use.

    I don't know what it means on those games.. Probably refer to the fact that the interfaces became simpler because they have to use a controller?  The controls would definitely be dumbed down.

    In terms of MMORPGs though, it refers to the fact that older MMORPGs used to require you to use your head.  For instance, older MMORPGs didn't have minimaps, didn't have arrows taking you straight to where you need to go.  They didn't give you directions all the time, keep you taksed. 

    MMORPGs are definitely dumbed down, so much to the point they are no longer fun.  What is next? Will the game play itself?  Maybe a game that plays itself would become more popular than WoW



     

    Too late for that, theres already several games which have a built in bot that you can program and just let it run itself and do all the work for you. Im not talking about botting programs either, im referring to games that actually come with a bot feature as part of the game play. Ive never even wasted my time with one since, as you said, the game plays itself. wtf is the point of even playing the game when youre not actually playing? funny thing is, id be willing to bet that in thos egames, the people bot their way to the top and then somehow feel some pathetic sense of accomplishment and claim to be better than others at the game, when really all they did was have their bot running longer or more efficiently than everyone else

    Anyway to the OP. It's one of those terms that people like to throw around without realizing theyre completely off in its use, and since it sounds cool/catchy to them they like to use it alot and think it makes them sound like they know what theyre talking about and are "too good" for so called dumbed down games. When used in respect to specific game slike you said, which dont have a previous baseline to compare it to, yeah dumbed down is a poor thing to use. Though when putting it in the context of GameX vs similar games of the same genre (or even the same series), it makes a bit more sense.

    For example, you mentioned C&C. Now im not saying it has or hasnt been, cause i dont know myself, but someone might be able to argue that the gameplay from the original C&C to C&C3 may have been dumbed down and made easier. Though the opposite may be true, or it could just be that its basically exactly the same, but because most are already familiar with the rest of the series, when a new one comes out in the series it just seems that much easier due to the familiarity.

    Id say though that the most common use of it is in MMORPGs as a whole, and also in games such as WoW as an example where you started with a certain type of game, and over time through patches and expansions, the game has morphed into a "dumbed down" or easier version of itself to make it easier for people to master while playing casually. It used to be that to be good at MMORPGs you actually had to invest a lot of time, learn the details, do a lot of exploring and trial and error type stuff. As a whole though the genre has been dumbed down in a sense that a 6 year old can hop on most of them, and within a day or 2 be just as good at the game as someone who has been playing it for a year or 2 because of the design of the games themselves by adding things like giant lit up icons over quest NPC heads, arrows directing you to where you need to go, making an almost useless enemy AI (many games, the mobs might as well just stand sill and do nothing, cause thats about how effective their AI is in battle), and even going so far as to allow auto-run features on maps. By the auto-run im not referring to just running in a specific direction, but in games like RoM you can actually open a map, and pick a spot on a map, or even search in the map for an NPC or mob, or item, and then set yourself to run to the desired location, and the game actually moves your character to that spot on its own without you controlling it yourself. Now granted some feature sthat have been added over the years while maybe slightly dumbing them down have benefits which greatly outweigh the downside, but overall they have just catered to lazier and lazier groups of people to the point where you're basically given an "I win" button and a tour guide to hold your hand and walk you where you need to go.

    As far the cross platform & porting goes, its really more just a matter of controller vs controller. You have a lot more buttons with keyboard & mouse than with a standard controller, so in order to play the same game, they usually have to condense actions that might have taken say 5 buttons with a keyboard, to only use 1 button on a controller. Some would call this dumbing down, because it requires less buttons, but IMO, does it really make a difference? Sure there are some exceptions to this depending on the game, but most of them dont take any measure of real "skill" to play/control. so does it really make you any more intelligent or skilled of a player because you have to press 5 buttons instead of 1 to perform the exact same action? I could just program a macro that does the same exact thing (and to you PC only fanatics... dont even try to bullshit and say you and others dont use macros in games), just like condensing it to a Xbox or PS3 controller does. So OK, the developers made the macro for you, instead of you having to program it yourself.... big whoop.

  • Rayx0rRayx0r melbourne, FLPosts: 2,902Member

    dumbed down:

    Usually used by people who are not challenged by something.  More times then not, its when a gamer is migrating from one game to another.

    Almost always, its a term used by noobs.  New gamers who havnt yet figured out that nearly all games that fit into specific genre follow the same formula (whether its UI, quests, AI etc.).  This new formula the noob has previously figured out from the game he just migrated from.  Therefore, he/she thinks the game has been "dumbed down" because they no longer feel the challenge they felt when they first entered the particular gaming genre.

    Like it or not, games borrow from one another.  You become better at these game aspects.  Nothing is being "dumbed down", your just too dumb to realize you're becoming better at them.

    image

    “"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a robot foot stomping on a human face -- forever."
  • Garvon3Garvon3 Worcester, MAPosts: 2,898Member

     Very simple. 

     

    For multiplatform games, you can tell when the PC version has been dumbed down. The PC has a lot more potential depth and power than the consoles, and a demographic that can handle a little complexity, but you can easily tell when a game is developed for the PC, and when its just a half baked port from the consoles. They get compared to previous similar games in the genre. 

     

    As for MMORPGs, they're compared to the 4 great pioneer MMOs that were far ahead of their time, and innovative, and actually deep complex games. Compared to modern MMOs, they seem dumbed down for the masses, because MMOs have gone from social virtual worlds for RPG gamers, to mass consumption quick fix heavy instanced solo friendly MMOs, with no penalties or depth in the mechanics, like WoW. 

    Four pioneer MMOs, Ultima Online, EverQuest, Asheron's Call, and Dark Age of Camelot. 

  • rscott6666rscott6666 Smithtown, NYPosts: 192Member

    I agree with you regarding the controllers.  COH used to have 10 bindable keys plus alt and shift making 30 keys you could use, and often you wanted access to 10-20 of them.  CO which is a dumbed down COH, you only need 5 keys to fight.  Not much choice, not much i nthe way to go wrong (combatwise).

    But as far as minimaps, for rpgs, i'd let that slide.  The character is supposed to have lived all their life in the world.  The player, not so much.  I view the minimap as the player using the characters knowledge.  You shouldn't need to be an expert in order to play an export.  That was the whole point of rpgs.  The character can do it even if the player can't.

  • Toquio3Toquio3 LisbonPosts: 1,074Member

    I can define dumbed down in 6 words + a symbol:

    Deus Ex ---> Deus Ex Invisible War.

    I'll give you a hint, the "--->" is the dumbed down part.

    image
    If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.

  • SanisarSanisar birmingham, ALPosts: 19Member

    I think you are missing the point, or refusing to see it.  If the game is produced identically on both platforms (one for one as you say) then obviously the PC version isn't going to be any more 'intelligent'.  The phrase generally stems from the severely decreased demand of independent actions within a short window of time; this type of activity is possible on PC yet not on consoles (due to button limitations) so the mechanics have to be 'dumbed-down' to facilitate this limitation, which in turn negatively impacts PC users who would be capable of more actions.

    I'll give an example.  In most MMOs i use around 40ish hotkeys per character on a regular basis, even with complex 2-3 button combinations (modifiers) on a standard controller you quickly hit a wall with the possibilities.  Another example, professional RTS players average from 200-400 APM (Actions per minute) on the typical keyboard/mouse setup, this just isn't possible on a controller and while you can port a RTS to console you can't play it anywhere near as effeciently.  This is why every game you mentioned is played professionally on PC and not consoles.  As far as I'm aware only Halo is played professionally on consoles and it's just a tiny blip in the pro FPS scene.

    Also, as far as MMOs go the hardware becomes a limiting factor when you are talking about rendering hundreds of players at a time and constantly upgrading technology over the years.  The only solution is to limit how many players appear at a time on screen (presumably through instancing) which most players feel is another form of 'dumbing-down'.

     

    I guess the real answer to your question is that because of the limitations of controllers versus keyboard/mouse and the limitations of hardware that will never be upgraded (in this gen consoles anyhow) games consequently have to be designed within these limitations that wouldn't be present with a PC only version of a game.

    Even simpler:  Dumbed-down = limited by console technology where a PC only version wouldn't be.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,751Member Uncommon

    "Dumbed down" is frequently misused to insult games which simplify their interface without sacrificing game depth.  While doing this is an outright improvement and breaks down barriers to entry, many gamers don't see it that way.

    "Dumbed down" is appropriately used when the simplification process actually does harm game depth.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • huge_froglokhuge_froglok Nanticoke, PAPosts: 135Member
    Originally posted by Rayx0r


    dumbed down:
    Usually used by people who are not challenged by something.  More times then not, its when a gamer is migrating from one game to another.
    Almost always, its a term used by noobs.  New gamers who havnt yet figured out that nearly all games that fit into specific genre follow the same formula (whether its UI, quests, AI etc.).  This new formula the noob has previously figured out from the game he just migrated from.  Therefore, he/she thinks the game has been "dumbed down" because they no longer feel the challenge they felt when they first entered the particular gaming genre.
    Like it or not, games borrow from one another.  You become better at these game aspects.  Nothing is being "dumbed down", your just too dumb to realize you're becoming better at them.

     

    Used by noobs? Lol...

    Do you really believe that games that let you solo through the whole thing, that show you where to go at all times, that explain everything to you and are constantly in your face (maybe popup messages like some horrible MMORPGs).   Do you think that isn't dumbed down?

    If you don't realize they are dumbed down, you just haven't played a non-dumbed down MMORPG (try pre-WoW, the era of non-dumbed down games).

     

    Well, your argument would have made some sense, if games were always staying at the same level of skill, or becoming more challenging.  The mere fact that games are growing larger and larger just symbolizes the dumbing down factor.  To say that a current MMORPG is not dumbed down compared to one 10 years ago is to deny reality.

  • dhayes68dhayes68 New York, NYPosts: 1,393Member Common

    It refers to ease of use. How much does the game hold a new players hand? If your a smart player, or even a dumb player who likes a challenge, this can be very annoying.

    How simplified are the game dynamics? Is the chat client simplified? Market designed so you can't make a mistake? Are the combat dynamics designed for people who don't really care much about combat?

    Whats the penalty for losing? Are there consequences to failure that encourage you to get it right the first time, or can you just fail over and over again til you manage to get it right and it won't make a difference?

    Etc...

  • merieke82merieke82 Denver, COPosts: 165Member

    I think the term "dumbed down" is still quite relevant when you're talking about a game being rolled out on multiple platforms at once. If you are in your initial gameplay design process and thinking through how it's going to perform across all systems then you essentially have to cater the game to the "lowest" platform. "Dumbing down" a game can be reducing the amount of player inputs, reducing the amount of content on screen, minimizing the core gameplay code to run well on that lowest platform, and the list goes on.

     

    If the company was successful each platform will present a near identical experience, but that doesn't mean the whole thing couldn't have been deeper and more complex if the game design was catered to the "highest" platform. Today it's just not as profitable or safe to create some kind of uber complex mmo that only runs on select systems and that only proficient gamers can understand.

     

    So, yes the term "dumbed down" is still completely relevant. The problem is more so the people who are using the term. When a hardcore gamer calls something "dumbed down" he is only justifying to himself that the game is not worth his time and looking for others to validate his skills.

     

    In short, it's just someone saying "I've played too many games for this to challenge me."

     

  • Toquio3Toquio3 LisbonPosts: 1,074Member

    And whats with a mmo getting easier and easier as it ages? mounts are given at earlier levels, xp is boosted, etc. This really bugs me. I think this kind of stuff should get harder as the game ages, not easier. It would keep alot more people in the game that would otherwise quit.

    I guess the one thing I hate more about expantions expanding the playable area than just creating more content for the existing area is raising the level caps. Man how I hate that.

    *Raises glass to arena net*

    image
    If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.

  • dhayes68dhayes68 New York, NYPosts: 1,393Member Common
    Originally posted by Toquio3


    And whats with a mmo getting easier and easier as it ages? mounts are given at earlier levels, xp is boosted, etc. This really bugs me. I think this kind of stuff should get harder as the game ages, not easier. It would keep alot more people in the game that would otherwise quit.
    I guess the one thing I hate more about expantions expanding the playable area than just creating more content for the existing area is raising the level caps. Man how I hate that.
    *Raises glass to arena net*

     

    merchants scrambling for customers in an over saturated or declining market?

  • Toquio3Toquio3 LisbonPosts: 1,074Member
    Originally posted by dhayes68

    Originally posted by Toquio3


    And whats with a mmo getting easier and easier as it ages? mounts are given at earlier levels, xp is boosted, etc. This really bugs me. I think this kind of stuff should get harder as the game ages, not easier. It would keep alot more people in the game that would otherwise quit.
    I guess the one thing I hate more about expantions expanding the playable area than just creating more content for the existing area is raising the level caps. Man how I hate that.
    *Raises glass to arena net*

     

    merchants scrambling for customers in an over saturated or declining market?

     

    Nah, I think it could probably be done right, if developers really wanted to.

    image
    If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.

  • ComnitusComnitus Williamsburg, VAPosts: 2,462Member

    "Dumbed down" generally refers to two things when it comes to MMOs, one of which is good and one of which is not.


    1. Streamlining/coalescence of content, game mechanics, etc. For example, adding a right-click option to crafting multiple items so that you don't get carpal tunnel. Or, a better example, what Blizzard is doing to WoW's stats in Cataclysm - removing unnecessary ones and simplifying (in a good way) talent trees, supposedly making every talent useful in some way. This is not dumbing down, this is improving the game.

    2. Instant gratification/making content more acceptable. This one may be valid, depending on the situation and the severity. Usually, I'm against instant gratification people - I agree you should have to work if you want to earn something - but I disagree that you must work for 23 hours of the day for two months to get one super-epic sword. These are games; we must never forget that. I'll work for my goal, but make it as fun and painless as possible. If a developer decided to make content more accessible by reducing the difficult level or entry requirements, it could be considered "dumbing down", and I have no stance on it. Mainly because I don't care if other people get what I get or not. I'm not selfish or vain, and I'd be perfectly fine with everyone experiencing that awesome, epic fight that the devs obviously worked hard on. What good is it if only 10% of the population actually sees it?

    Assassin's Creed is good on PC. The controls aren't crap like other console-to-PC ports, the graphics are stable and nice, and the gameplay is fun. I don't know if it's "smarted up", though.

    image

  • pencilrickpencilrick The Alamo, TXPosts: 1,550Member
    Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe


    Seriously! Look at the phrase. LOOK AT IT!!!!
    The implication being that at one time a particular game was "intelligent" but has undergone some unholy voodoo and been turned into a version of Chutes and Ladders or, even worse, Ludo. This term is normally used in reference to a multiplatform game that was made for consoles and PC at the same time.
    What's so confusing is when the term is applied to a brand new franchise that plays exactly the same on all platforms. How can you "dumb down" something that didn't even exsist previously? You can claim that one control type is less efficient than another,  but that isn't the same as watering down the core mechanics.
    Let's take Command & Conquer 3 as an example. Both the PC and console versions of the game use the exact same maps, the exact same factions, the exact same unit caps, and the exact same units. What exactly was "dumbed down?" Same thing with Morrowind. Both the PC and XBox versions had the same maps, the same kind of first/third person minimal interface, the quests, the items, the same NPCs... If it's the exact same game at it's core, how can it be "dumbed down?"
    You might be able to say this about a game that started out on the PC and was poorly ported to a console, like CiV 2 being placed on the PSX near the end of it's life cycle, but If it was developed for both the PC and consoles or it was a one-for-one port....
    And while we're on the subject, was Assassin's Creed "smarted up" by being ported to the PC?
    I'm calling bullshit on this term and it's use.



     

    A good example of dumbed down is WOW quest NPC's, where they put a frickin' yellow question mark above the NPC's head.  Heck, it's even on the mini-map.

    They've even done a study on this where a group of test apes placed in a computer room were actually able to level in WOW as fast as a test group of an equal number of teenagers.  The game is DUMBED DOWN.

    Previous MMO's would make finding the NPC part of the adventure, giving you hints on where to look, so when you found the NPC, you got a minor feeling of having accomplished something.  Gosh, I miss MMO's like early EQ or DAOC; games where you had to think.

  • Garvon3Garvon3 Worcester, MAPosts: 2,898Member
    Originally posted by dhayes68

    Originally posted by Toquio3


    And whats with a mmo getting easier and easier as it ages? mounts are given at earlier levels, xp is boosted, etc. This really bugs me. I think this kind of stuff should get harder as the game ages, not easier. It would keep alot more people in the game that would otherwise quit.
    I guess the one thing I hate more about expantions expanding the playable area than just creating more content for the existing area is raising the level caps. Man how I hate that.
    *Raises glass to arena net*

     

    merchants scrambling for customers in an over saturated or declining market?

    Ding ding ding, winner

  • Jimmy_ScytheJimmy_Scythe Macomb, ILPosts: 3,586Member
    Originally posted by Sanisar


    I think you are missing the point, or refusing to see it.  If the game is produced identically on both platforms (one for one as you say) then obviously the PC version isn't going to be any more 'intelligent'.  The phrase generally stems from the severely decreased demand of independent actions within a short window of time; this type of activity is possible on PC yet not on consoles (due to button limitations) so the mechanics have to be 'dumbed-down' to facilitate this limitation, which in turn negatively impacts PC users who would be capable of more actions.
    I'll give an example.  In most MMOs i use around 40ish hotkeys per character on a regular basis, even with complex 2-3 button combinations (modifiers) on a standard controller you quickly hit a wall with the possibilities.  Another example, professional RTS players average from 200-400 APM (Actions per minute) on the typical keyboard/mouse setup, this just isn't possible on a controller and while you can port a RTS to console you can't play it anywhere near as effeciently.  This is why every game you mentioned is played professionally on PC and not consoles.  As far as I'm aware only Halo is played professionally on consoles and it's just a tiny blip in the pro FPS scene.
    Also, as far as MMOs go the hardware becomes a limiting factor when you are talking about rendering hundreds of players at a time and constantly upgrading technology over the years.  The only solution is to limit how many players appear at a time on screen (presumably through instancing) which most players feel is another form of 'dumbing-down'.
    You mean something like this:
     
    .... um, yeah... no console could ever do that... (except the XBox 360)....
    I guess the real answer to your question is that because of the limitations of controllers versus keyboard/mouse and the limitations of hardware that will never be upgraded (in this gen consoles anyhow) games consequently have to be designed within these limitations that wouldn't be present with a PC only version of a game.
    Even simpler:  Dumbed-down = limited by console technology where a PC only version wouldn't be.

     

    Wow.... I haven't heard anyone outside of the Starcraft community talke aobut Actions per minute.....

    Um... Are you by any chance Korean?

  • EbonyflyEbonyfly St AlbansPosts: 255Member

    It's not exactly what I would call dumbing down but I think the interface for PC games can suffer sometimes when a game is also designed for a console at the same time. A good example of this is the hotbar thingy in Oblivion. It only has 8 slots for weapons, spells and abilities. Ideal for a gamepad I guess but as a PC gamer I found it quite restrictive. Of course it is possible to pause the game and select abilities manually but this disrupts the whole flow of the game. So I usually ended up spamming a very limited selection of abilities and my gameplay was, in effect, simplified by the restrictions of the console interface.

    While on the subject of Oblivion, many people regard it as a dumbed down version of Morrowind. It certainly has less skill options and the storyline and political setting seemed a lot less sophisticated to me. I guess Bethesda would argue that the skills were just streamlined. I think in many cases 'streamlined' and 'dumbed down' are euphamisms with the same general meaning but a different perspective.

     

  • AlberelAlberel LondonPosts: 1,121Member
    Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

    Originally posted by Sanisar


    I think you are missing the point, or refusing to see it.  If the game is produced identically on both platforms (one for one as you say) then obviously the PC version isn't going to be any more 'intelligent'.  The phrase generally stems from the severely decreased demand of independent actions within a short window of time; this type of activity is possible on PC yet not on consoles (due to button limitations) so the mechanics have to be 'dumbed-down' to facilitate this limitation, which in turn negatively impacts PC users who would be capable of more actions.
    I'll give an example.  In most MMOs i use around 40ish hotkeys per character on a regular basis, even with complex 2-3 button combinations (modifiers) on a standard controller you quickly hit a wall with the possibilities.  Another example, professional RTS players average from 200-400 APM (Actions per minute) on the typical keyboard/mouse setup, this just isn't possible on a controller and while you can port a RTS to console you can't play it anywhere near as effeciently.  This is why every game you mentioned is played professionally on PC and not consoles.  As far as I'm aware only Halo is played professionally on consoles and it's just a tiny blip in the pro FPS scene.
    Also, as far as MMOs go the hardware becomes a limiting factor when you are talking about rendering hundreds of players at a time and constantly upgrading technology over the years.  The only solution is to limit how many players appear at a time on screen (presumably through instancing) which most players feel is another form of 'dumbing-down'.
    You mean something like this:
     
    .... um, yeah... no console could ever do that... (except the XBox 360)....
    I guess the real answer to your question is that because of the limitations of controllers versus keyboard/mouse and the limitations of hardware that will never be upgraded (in this gen consoles anyhow) games consequently have to be designed within these limitations that wouldn't be present with a PC only version of a game.
    Even simpler:  Dumbed-down = limited by console technology where a PC only version wouldn't be.

     

    Wow.... I haven't heard anyone outside of the Starcraft community talke aobut Actions per minute.....

    Um... Are you by any chance Korean?

    I think enough people have already pointed out exactly what dumbing down is and I agree with them, so I'm not going to add to that. But the picture you've shown there has all the characters in identical armour (bar one) and all controlled by AI. This is many many times easier to process for the system than a huge number of unique-looking player-controlled characters. When you're dealing with many players in one area the computer has to load up everyone's individually customised characters and equipment as well as deal with their independently controlled actions; the former will cause huge computer lag, the latter will cause huge server lag.

  • BathnorBathnor Standish, MEPosts: 136Member

    I think Morrowind is a dumbed down game. The land is much to small and they cut a lot of the fun skills from Daggerfall and Arena.

    Mmos can get dumbed down as well.

  • Jimmy_ScytheJimmy_Scythe Macomb, ILPosts: 3,586Member
    Originally posted by Bathnor


    I think Morrowind is a dumbed down game. The land is much to small and they cut a lot of the fun skills from Daggerfall and Arena.
    Mmos can get dumbed down as well.

     

    yeah, but is that because of the platform or because the graphics took up memory that was an order of magnitude larger than the other two games. Clearly they went for detailed artwork rather than a large quantity of lower poly, low textured artwork. Take a look at the shots.

    Elder Scrolls: Arena

    Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall

    Elder Scrolls: Morrowind

    Now that's quite a jump. Considering that the first two games were 2.5D, It's understandable how they were able to create such a massive world. Bitmaps may take up more room than a 3D mesh + textures, but you can organize them in a manner that is way more compact than any representation of 3D space.

    I don't see the XBox as being the limiting factor here.

  • Jimmy_ScytheJimmy_Scythe Macomb, ILPosts: 3,586Member
    Originally posted by Alberel

    Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

    Originally posted by Sanisar


    I think you are missing the point, or refusing to see it.  If the game is produced identically on both platforms (one for one as you say) then obviously the PC version isn't going to be any more 'intelligent'.  The phrase generally stems from the severely decreased demand of independent actions within a short window of time; this type of activity is possible on PC yet not on consoles (due to button limitations) so the mechanics have to be 'dumbed-down' to facilitate this limitation, which in turn negatively impacts PC users who would be capable of more actions.
    I'll give an example.  In most MMOs i use around 40ish hotkeys per character on a regular basis, even with complex 2-3 button combinations (modifiers) on a standard controller you quickly hit a wall with the possibilities.  Another example, professional RTS players average from 200-400 APM (Actions per minute) on the typical keyboard/mouse setup, this just isn't possible on a controller and while you can port a RTS to console you can't play it anywhere near as effeciently.  This is why every game you mentioned is played professionally on PC and not consoles.  As far as I'm aware only Halo is played professionally on consoles and it's just a tiny blip in the pro FPS scene.
    Also, as far as MMOs go the hardware becomes a limiting factor when you are talking about rendering hundreds of players at a time and constantly upgrading technology over the years.  The only solution is to limit how many players appear at a time on screen (presumably through instancing) which most players feel is another form of 'dumbing-down'.
    You mean something like this:
     
    .... um, yeah... no console could ever do that... (except the XBox 360)....
    I guess the real answer to your question is that because of the limitations of controllers versus keyboard/mouse and the limitations of hardware that will never be upgraded (in this gen consoles anyhow) games consequently have to be designed within these limitations that wouldn't be present with a PC only version of a game.
    Even simpler:  Dumbed-down = limited by console technology where a PC only version wouldn't be.

     

    Wow.... I haven't heard anyone outside of the Starcraft community talke aobut Actions per minute.....

    Um... Are you by any chance Korean?

    I think enough people have already pointed out exactly what dumbing down is and I agree with them, so I'm not going to add to that. But the picture you've shown there has all the characters in identical armour (bar one) and all controlled by AI. This is many many times easier to process for the system than a huge number of unique-looking player-controlled characters. When you're dealing with many players in one area the computer has to load up everyone's individually customised characters and equipment as well as deal with their independently controlled actions; the former will cause huge computer lag, the latter will cause huge server lag.

     

    You mean like this:

    or this...

    Alright, so the EQOA pic isn't that impressive but you get my point. MMOs have been done on consoles before. There is no reason why they can't be done on consoles again.

    And just because something is on the console doesn't automatically make it for retards. "The fewer the rules of a game, the more complex the mind must be to master it" I believe is the old axiom.

    110 hotkeys, brick thick manuals and stragegy guides do not make a game deep or intelligent. They just put on a good show before someone wades through all the crap and finds the most cheap, broke ass strategy. There are plenty of people with that kind of time on their hands, and that's the reason you have never ending patches. The designers themselves have added so much worthless shit that they can't even tell where the game is broken.

  • ThomasN7ThomasN7 87.18.7.148 1, NJPosts: 6,690Member

    So simple even a caveman can do it.

    30
  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

    It is something Sanisar and Axehilt wrote.

    I don't think "instant gratification" has anything to with being "dumbed down". A game can hold rewards even when it is dumbed down.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

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