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General: Janitor on the Death Star

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  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member

    I haven't read the discussion up to now, so I'm only replying to the article's point on - how do you make it feel more heroic?

    ~and my answer is simple; humble roots.

    The janitor on the death star is a *perfect* example. If you were a stormtrooper, who is kicking ass from the start, then you are less likely to feel like you earn a place at the top. If you were mopping floors long before you were mopping up people, then you are part-superhero for having broken from menial roots. It's the "Clark Kent theory", were you are a nobody amongst the crowd, but moonlight as the man of steel. Going back and forth from these lifestyle changes the character goes through serves as a better reminder of the journey's effect on hardening him.

    I always bring up Silent Hill in these situations - because I've said for years that the main character should suck at combat... initially. At some point the character will get better at what he does, and start chainsawing mannequin legs with gusto (and perhaps a more joyous expression as he does it). This is to emphasize the idea of how the experience changes a person, wrapped up in a natural progression where you start kicking more ass, and then face harder/more monsters to match the new capability. Silent Hill always has some janitor who ends up beating the forces of darkness through kickassery... just wonkily controlled kickassery. Monsters are pretty uncoordinated.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
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  • NethermancerNethermancer Toronto, ONPosts: 520Member

    I think feeling heroic in games is overrated and the absolute wrong thing for an MMO to try and simulate. To me a good MMO is about options and versatility......classes are the worst thing to come to MMO's IMO.

    options - allowing someone to become a king, a janitor, a spy, a knight, a jester, etc. and interact with people after making there choices is what is great about an MMO.

    Versatility - If someone wants to become a janitor/spy then let them in your game! why the heck not.

    In EVE i am a miner/covert ops/business man and i love every minute of it.

    Playing: PO, EVE
    Waiting for: WoD
    Favourite MMOs: VG, EVE, FE and DDO
    Any person who expresses rage and loathing for an MMO is preposterous. He or she is like a person who has put on full armor and attacked a hot fudge sundae.

  • TroneasTroneas Buenos AiresPosts: 851Member

     "However, if I’m playing in the Star Wars universe, I want to be piloting the Death Star, not cleaning out its restrooms. For players wanting to feel like heroes, SWG at launch was hard going."

     

    well you are what we used to call the NGE target market.

     

    you are not alone, but you are also not the only segment of players there is.

     

    thank you for sharing your preference.

     

    ...and i wonder how heroic the nge jedi feel now, with all 10 of them left running around with the same epic, heroic powers and class.

    image

  • TardcoreTardcore MinskPosts: 2,325Member
    Originally posted by NovaKayne


    I think SWG in its early days proved that some do ENJOY being the janitor on the Death Star.
     
    I hate to bring up such a sore subject but, the game core was not the issue.  It was bugs on powers not acting the way they were supposed to and content that was bugged or missing.
     
    There was a large contingent of players who enjoyed the open ended aspect of the game and are longing for something more like it.  It showed one major thing that most developers are overlooking.  Along with there being the HERO aspect of the game and EPIC battles.  Players want to be able to Socialize and display trinkets and trophy's that are unique or hard won / hard to find.
     
    The greatest thing the game offered was support classes that DID NOT NEED TO COMBAT.  In this aspect of the game it created a unique crafter / support  community that has never been done before and probably never done again. 
     
    To create the WoW killer you need to create a game with the support and crafting and non-combat aspects of SWG PRE-CU and the accessability and polish of WoW.  If some developer is actually able to pull this off it will be the end all be all MMO that will maintain a huge subscriber base for a really long long time.
     
    What is an end game?  RAIDS?  artrificially motivated combat?  Badges or Trinkets? 
     
    My bet, having a comunity that can build / sponsor events like pod / horse / mount races.  PvP arenas held by guilds or individuals.  Various other player ran / created concepts that may/may not give XP but, do give some alternate form of actually BEING in the alternate universe that was created instead of just along for the ride.

     

    I was going to wade in with this very idea, but NovaKayne seems to have already given you an excellent intellectual ass whoopin.

    I will add this though. Please explain why when you could only have one character per server and playing a crafter meant you were nearly useless combat wise, over half of my SWG guild (ACRID) were crafters. Actually I know the answer. Crafting in SWG was an intricate and enjoyable process, which best of all was a needed part of the game. Player crafted gear was the best gear. Crafters were both respected and useful. People are more than happy to be janitor on the Death Star if it is a rewarding and meaningful job. SWG making crafting a sought after and worthwhile profession is one of the few things they did right.

    Now I do agree with you that MMOs and RPGs in general need to stop with the exterminate (obscenely powerful) minor vermin to level garbage. That has been a nauseating  staple of fantasy video games I have hated since the arcade game Rastan.

    What would be the problem with letting your little hero guy destroy two or three goblin mobs at a swing at level one? Just make sure the loot tables are not ridiculous and you could stop the freaking boredom, and make the player feel like he is accomplishing something worthwhile instead of being nothing more than the Medieval Orkan Man. I have to ask did these game makers never play games such as the original Doom or Diablo series? The biggest kick you got out of those games was cutting great swaths through hordes of enemies. They didn't send you to go kill five ants and pray you didn't get your ass handed to you.

     

     

    image

    "Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "

  • Xondar123Xondar123 None of Your Business, BCPosts: 2,543Member
    Originally posted by Coredin

    Originally posted by Xondar123

    Originally posted by neonaka


    What amazes me out of all this, is the sheer amount of replies with this statement:
     
    "I want to escape reality for a short period of time."

     

    Anyone who watches TV is escaping reality. Anyone who watches a movie is escaping reality. Anyone who reads a book is escaping reality. Anyone who plays a boardgame is escaping reality.

    Do the people who do all these things think they have miserable and "shitty" lives? Of course not! But guess what? There is a reason entertainment is called "escapism," and some of the greatest works of art in human history have been produced as escapism.

    It would seem then that human beings naturally need to escape from their reality once in a while. It is a vital psychological mechanism that prevents us from going insane. All the way from Homer's The Illiad to William Shakespeare to Tolkien to the MMORPG, human beings need escapism in some way.

    Denouncing that and then further denouncing someone's chosen form of escapism is just sad and very pathetic. I don't go around telling people they are morons for investing themselves emotionally in movies or TV shows, I wouldn't think them very polite if they said tthe same about me and MMOs.

     

    Maybe it's just a play on semantics, but wouldn't escaping reality mean you have something to run away from in life, that it's bothering you in some big or small way?

    I play games cause I want to have fun, and entertain myself for a little bit. Not because i'm trying to escape something or get away from the horrors of real life. Maybe at that point someone has a bigger problem with real life than they do with a game. When you need a game to be purely for escaping reality, that's entering the realm of getting drunk or eating super fatty ice cream to escape something which aren't exactly good activities.

    I do however understand that MMOs are something to do that you cannot do in real life, and maybe in that way they are an escape, like how a vacation is an escape. But from what I read, i believe the person you quoted from was complaining about the earlier people who escape reality with games cause their life sucks, and they dont want one bit of challenge in their game cause their like sucks and is challenging enough as it is. And I have to agree, if your life is so bad that a little bit of challenge in an online multiplayer game upsets you, you should either fix your life or play a social game.

     

    I don't think wanting to engage in escapism means that someone is necessarily fleeing from something in their life. Human being seem to be built to need fantasies and escapism as a natural part of our psyches. After all, who doesn't daydream or imagine or have dreams for their lives? These can be said to be a form of escapism too.

    What you "have fun" or entertain yourself by playing a game, how do you do so? Don't you use the game as a portal into a world you could never inhabit? Don't tell me you play a video game where you get up, take a shower, brush your teeth, go to your job (or school,) do your work for eight hours and then go home. Because unless you do play a game that exactly mirrors your own reality and you find it fun and entertaining, then you are engaging in some sort of escapism.

    Likewise, someone who watches Hamlet is imagining a medieval Danish prince seeking revenge for the death of his father and anyone who reads the Illiad is inhabiting a world where the Achaeans have set up a ten-year siege of Troy. People engage in these works for entertainment and because they find them fun, but there is no way to argue that they aren't some form of escapism.

    My point was that all entertainment allows people to escape reality in some form. That's why it is called "escapism." Merriam-Webster defines "escapism" as: "habitual diversion of the mind to purely imaginative activity or entertainment as an escape from reality or routine." www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/escapism

  • GhostflameGhostflame GothenburgPosts: 29Member

    My first thought when I was about to start playing my first MMORPG was "Wow, I get to play a person living in the Star Wars universe!". It was not "Oh, I'm gonna be a hero and kill Darth Vader."

    A MMORPG with thousands of "heroes" running around just seems silly to me. Even in City of Villains I play pretty low key villains...

     

  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 7,906Member Uncommon

    IMVPO this is one of the core issues of MMOs. I come more from a single player and pen & paper background, and THIS was my reason Number ONE back in the days of UO not to play MMOs. Why would I be a tailor or any other average grinder = normal working person in a MMO when I am ALREADY A NOBODY IN REAL LIFE? WHY? Thats why I never ever ever craft. Its like work! I mean, who wants to work AGAIN just after coming from work? What I want to be is the hero of those fantasy books and sci fi movies I loved! Not some mundane nobody I am for free in RL already! Thats why for the bigger part I stick with my single player games or PNP.

    But I love the social aspect of MMOs. Like in the days of SWG, or also to a degree in EQ2. When the MMO does make me feel heroic, its good and I love to share that with online friends. Insofar the article is great and highlights the valid points.

     

    There are four areas, all mentioned to make a player feel heroic.

    A) Heroic encounters: like the giant in the early WAR human area, the way all is set up really makes one feel heroic indeed.

    B) Early confrontation with the main villains via storytelling: As the encounter with the Nazgul in LOTRO. It really gives the player the sense to be part of something BIG.

    C) Mass Combat: I have said that time and again, the Dynasty Warriors games are a great example to make you feel heroic right away. You dont hack 10 minutes on some GD boar or badger, you slice 100 to the left and 200 to the right! If Tera does that, is sounds all good. Or Champions. You dont hack 5 minutes on some street thug, you pulverize them in groups and fast, and I am VERY glad to hear the SWTOR combat is also fast paced. Personally I am so tired of this EQ-way of taking a group of 5 "heroes" and then hack 10 minutes on some godsforsaken badger or somesuch and then move on to the next! It's so ridiculous.

    D) Personalized Story-Telling: as we prolly going to see in SWTOR and in Tortage of AoC. YOU matter. You and your doings.

     

    Generally I want my MMOs to see more of all these. But going back to EQ hardships like death penalities asf... no way. Going back is never the answer.

     

    EDIT: Even if you say, thats all fine for you, Elikal, but I dont want to be a hero. Well, thats because you define hero too narrow. You see a hero as dragon slaying Paladin or somesuch. No, a hero is in a MMO someone who has am impact. Or FEEL LIKE he had an impact. And who would not want to feel his action had meaning and mattered? Who wants to be the Janitor of the Death Star? Nobody! But even if you are just some background person, you want to see you did something and it had an impact. You dont want to kill 200 mobs X and then they are all respawned and nothing matters. This just causes frustration. Maybe you just want to make sure the Shire in Tolkien's world has a celebration it won't forget and YOUR work ensures that. Thats heroic also, because YOU matter. Your get this feeling something changed. Like when you play LOTRO in those book quests. Sure, everyone else does them too, but the way they are staged makes you feel like your personal doings greatly contributed to some change, some impact and you are NOT just send like some nameless errand boy or girl.

    And sorry to say, but all those who chime and say "I don't want to be hero and OP is a jerk" haven't even BEGUN to think about the matter a minute! Of course you want to be hero, but its your imagination of the word that is too limited. Maybe you dont want to be a Paladin slaying dragons and getting a festival at the king's table, but you too want to matter, you too want impact and want to get the feeling to be meaningful and not be a number 87687 pie carrier to Granny Doe.

    And yes, all this is just a diplomatic way of saying: 90% of people posting here quickly flaming down the OP are dumb. Most people alas dont know what they want. If being an average joe was so perfect to you all, then you would not critizise MMOs so much, because THATS WHAT YOU ARE IN THEN: a nobody that is a mere Fedex guy. But as I said, most humans are too dumb to really know what they want and what is good for them. Rude? Sorry, I just got 40 and I get tired to pretend to be nice. My time just runs out for these pretend games. =P

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • NovaKayneNovaKayne Houston, TXPosts: 743Member
    Originally posted by Troneas


     "However, if I’m playing in the Star Wars universe, I want to be piloting the Death Star, not cleaning out its restrooms. For players wanting to feel like heroes, SWG at launch was hard going."
     
    well you are what we used to call the NGE target market.
     
    you are not alone, but you are also not the only segment of players there is.
     
    thank you for sharing your preference.
     
    ...and i wonder how heroic the nge jedi feel now, with all 10 of them left running around with the same epic, heroic powers and class.



     

    QFT!

     

    +1 lvl for summing up the whole point of everyone's remarks in 4 lines!!

     

     

    @Elikal

    Seriously, there are those who like to sit and craft and could make the epic gear you need to go and do what you want.  No one is saying that games should not include the type of play you are wanting.  However, have you not noticed that since most of the latest MMO's released do not have some intricate crafting or crafting dependancy?  Have you noticed that fewer people are sitting around for you to be able to show off to?

     

    Do not get me wrong.  I HATE crafting myself and do not understand the appeal.  However, I respect those that like it and have the patience for it because they made the best gear.  Some were legendary in notoriety for thier gear in SWG.  Someone would aks me where I got that gun and I could tell them Snotson on Tattooine ( not a real person ).  He makes really good weapons.  Armor guy nearby is prety good but, the one on Naboo is better. 

     

    How is THAT for EPIC or HEROIC?  This guy was KNOWN for what he could do.  How many people did you know by name could take on a Boss MOB by themselves?  Even an EPIC one?

    Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.

  • Bob_BlawblawBob_Blawblaw Montreal, QCPosts: 1,278Member
    Originally posted by NovaKayne

    Originally posted by Troneas 

    QFT!

     

    +1 lvl for summing up the whole point of everyone's remarks in 4 lines!!

     

    Agreed, but one small correction...

     +100 points Forum XP added to the  Forum Reasoning  skill tree...

  • JYCowboyJYCowboy Northlake, TXPosts: 660Member

    I would rather be a janitor on the Death Star than grand knight on Alderaan.

     

    In a sandbox MMO its all a matter of perception and what you do with your position.  What is a true progression, going from level 10 to 15 or going from janitor to ordiance handler?  I make my course and not complain if I have to seek out my direction.

  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 7,906Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JYCowboy


    I would rather be a janitor on the Death Star than grand knight on Alderaan.
     
    In a sandbox MMO its all a matter of perception and what you do with your position.  What is a true progression, going from level 10 to 15 or going from janitor to ordiance handler?  I make my course and not complain if I have to seek out my direction.

     

    *facepalm*

    You know, I play King of Alderaan and you all get to be my janitors, manservants, cleaning personell, workman, farmers. All the more heroism for me. What do you say?

    Seriously, if there are two NPCs, one offering to be Jedi Knight (or Sith) for some grand adventure, and another NPC offering you to clean the toilets, you chose the latter? WHO THE HELL IS GOING TO BELIEVE YOU THAT?

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • DraccanDraccan CopenhagenPosts: 1,050Member

    So many wrong perceptions in this thread.

    1. My all time favorite game is SPACE QUEST by Sierra, where you played a .... janitor, on a space craft. And yes I had an amazing time with puzzle solving and engaging with the game world. I pretty much grew up on the Space Quest series.

    2. If everyone is darth vader then no one is darth vader. The fact is that a game world with 100000s heroes = a game world with 0 heroes.

    3. When I ran a guild in SWG for a spell the most powerful members were the non combat crafters. They could make and break a guild and behind the scenes I listened to my two three top crafters the most. Without them we would have been nothing.

    4. To the poster talking about not wanting to move to MMOs because he preferred being a hero in pen and paper role playing games. Well each to the his own. But my favorite game of all time was Call of Cthulhu playing roles like Antiquarians, archeologists, etc. Also I had memorable fun playing games like Paranoia or Viking (Danish RPG) where you were anything but a hero. In fact the less of a hero the more the fun. In one scenario of Star Wars once I played a bottom feeder at a gaming conference with a jedi in the group. I had tons of fun.

     

     

    ____________________________
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  • JYCowboyJYCowboy Northlake, TXPosts: 660Member
    Originally posted by Elikal

    Originally posted by JYCowboy


    I would rather be a janitor on the Death Star than grand knight on Alderaan.
     
    In a sandbox MMO its all a matter of perception and what you do with your position.  What is a true progression, going from level 10 to 15 or going from janitor to ordiance handler?  I make my course and not complain if I have to seek out my direction.

     

    *facepalm*

    You know, I play King of Alderaan and you all get to be my janitors, manservants, cleaning personell, workman, farmers. All the more heroism for me. What do you say?

    Seriously, if there are two NPCs, one offering to be Jedi Knight (or Sith) for some grand adventure, and another NPC offering you to clean the toilets, you chose the latter? WHO THE HELL IS GOING TO BELIEVE YOU THAT?



     

    "...and you just sat there and it was fun?"

    Sorry but /facepalm to you as well.  You just don't get it.  Go from Janitor to Jedi, thats the reward. The journey not the goal.

  • TroneasTroneas Buenos AiresPosts: 851Member
    Originally posted by Elikal

    Originally posted by JYCowboy


    I would rather be a janitor on the Death Star than grand knight on Alderaan.
     
    In a sandbox MMO its all a matter of perception and what you do with your position.  What is a true progression, going from level 10 to 15 or going from janitor to ordiance handler?  I make my course and not complain if I have to seek out my direction.

     

    *facepalm*

    You know, I play King of Alderaan and you all get to be my janitors, manservants, cleaning personell, workman, farmers. All the more heroism for me. What do you say?

    Seriously, if there are two NPCs, one offering to be Jedi Knight (or Sith) for some grand adventure, and another NPC offering you to clean the toilets, you chose the latter? WHO THE HELL IS GOING TO BELIEVE YOU THAT?



     

    i think you didnt understand his argument:

     

    its all a matter of perception

     

    if you are in a death star MMO so to speak, and the professions are: operator, mechanic, stormtrooper, etc. you won't regard your profession as "non-heroic" because it has a useful purpose and role and its on par with the rest of the professions responsibilities in which all need to perform their duties to have the death star floating in space.

    if you log in one day and find a player character with the "admiral" profession for the first time you'll be in awe and amusement.

     

    then you find out that in order to be an admiral you have to prove yourself by giving up your social life for 2 years and commit yourself entirely to the game and your in-game profession.

    then perhaps you say "ill pass on that" because there are 1 admirals for 10000 operators so good for them but you are happy with your role as a "specialist weapons operator" - you had so much fun till now and you know its important to the community to have you so its not worth the effort perhaps.

    but then you see that the Empire decides to fast-track promotion and more and more admirals appear and one day for every 1 admiral there are 2 operators so you start feeling left behind and "not as important" as you once were.

    so you take the offer and become an admiral - but now everyone is an admiral so you feel exactly the same as you did when being an operator except you enjoyed being an operator but not so much being an admiral.

    additionally, the death star cant be kept afloat in space because there are no more operators and mechanics but loads of admirals so the admirals start to resign (ie leave) in search of another death star (ie game) in which they'll feel relevant and unique again.

     

    image

  • abbabaabbaba Monroe, WIPosts: 1,143Member

    Another way to kill the sense of the heroic is to set the action in a mundane environment. When Star Wars Galaxies first came out, much attention was based on its Jedi mechanic. While a few select players managed to eventually become Jedi, most players ended up leading a fairly humdrum life, dancing in cantinas or hunting small furry things, essentially doing jobs that somewhat mirrored normal everyday activities.

     

     

    Not correct. At launch, there were no player jedis and no way to become a jedi. The game launched in July of 03 and the first force sensitive slot unlock (NOT jedi) was in November. The game had something like 300,000 subscribers and none of them played Jedi. Apparently 300,000 people liked being commandos and bounty hunters and weaponsmiths. I know I did.



    PreNGE SWG (and most MMORPGs in general, I think )  wasn't about being the hero like in a movie or a book. It was about a fun game and being part of an immersive MMO world.

    In WoW, no one raids because they want to save Azeroth from the Lich King. They want the loot and the fun to be had by getting it. Beliefs to the contrary are delusional.

    People that want to pretend they are heroes saving the world play single player games.

  • JYCowboyJYCowboy Northlake, TXPosts: 660Member
    Originally posted by abbaba


    Another way to kill the sense of the heroic is to set the action in a mundane environment. When Star Wars Galaxies first came out, much attention was based on its Jedi mechanic. While a few select players managed to eventually become Jedi, most players ended up leading a fairly humdrum life, dancing in cantinas or hunting small furry things, essentially doing jobs that somewhat mirrored normal everyday activities.
     
     
    Not correct. At launch, there were no player jedis and no way to become a jedi. The game launched in July of 03 and the first force sensitive slot unlock (NOT jedi) was in November. The game had something like 300,000 subscribers and none of them played Jedi. Apparently 300,000 people liked being commandos and bounty hunters and weaponsmiths. I know I did.


    PreNGE SWG (and most MMORPGs in general, I think )  wasn't about being the hero like in a movie or a book. It was about a fun game and being part of an immersive MMO world.
    In WoW, no one raids because they want to save Azeroth from the Lich King. They want the loot and the fun to be had by getting it. Beliefs to the contrary are delusional.
    People that want to pretend they are heroes saving the world play single player games.



     

    SWG offical launch was June 26, 2003.  Servers were down so the real fun started the 27th.

  • VhalnVhaln Chicago, ILPosts: 3,159Member

    OF COURSE some people want to play the janitor on the deathstar - and some people don't.

    but come on, at least it's a way to be on the proverbial deathstar, maybe even in a way that's actually plausible - which for some of us, makes the experience better, even if it means some drudgery.

    Thing is, I bet half the people who claim they only want to be heroes find themselves playing farmville. People who don't get how gameplay trumps the setting by a huge margin. I would bet that even literally playing a janitor would be fun, if the mechanics made it interesting and dynamic. Course, the problem would be selling a game like that.

    but emphasize that it's on the deathstar, put the janitor part in fine print, and you'd be good to go. If it turns out to be a good game, just selling it to the people who don't read the fine print would be a strong enough start for word of mouth to carry it all the way to mass popularity.

    Next thing you know, people'd be praising it for being something new and different, and not just another World of Jedi clone.

    When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  • ShojuShoju Hicksville, NYPosts: 771Member Uncommon

    While not many would be happy having to play a janitor on the Death Star, Darth Vader started out as a grubby slave and Luke Skywalker the foster son of a moisture farmer.

  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 7,906Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JYCowboy

    Originally posted by Elikal

    Originally posted by JYCowboy


    I would rather be a janitor on the Death Star than grand knight on Alderaan.
     
    In a sandbox MMO its all a matter of perception and what you do with your position.  What is a true progression, going from level 10 to 15 or going from janitor to ordiance handler?  I make my course and not complain if I have to seek out my direction.

     

    *facepalm*

    You know, I play King of Alderaan and you all get to be my janitors, manservants, cleaning personell, workman, farmers. All the more heroism for me. What do you say?

    Seriously, if there are two NPCs, one offering to be Jedi Knight (or Sith) for some grand adventure, and another NPC offering you to clean the toilets, you chose the latter? WHO THE HELL IS GOING TO BELIEVE YOU THAT?



     

    "...and you just sat there and it was fun?"

    Sorry but /facepalm to you as well.  You just don't get it.  Go from Janitor to Jedi, thats the reward. The journey not the goal.

     

    "I have you now!"

    See, you too want to *become* hero, but you want to start small. Fine, I dont want to be king from day 1, but starting too low isnt of any interest. But at least we agree the GOAL is heroism not menial labour! However, if you look at a Jedi Padawan, you wouldn't read the books or watch the movies where young Obi-Wan starts his daily menial tasks, only for a very brief time and then fast skip to some action. That is what people do as entertainment. Luke was a farmboy, yes, but how long? It still wasnt the focus of the story, but his heroics. Slowly, yes, but saying you want to be Janitor is not what you want to BE, its the obstacle you want to escape being. Like all the many here bashing the OP falsely so. He never said people are supposed to be made king without anything. He said ppl strife to BECOME the hero.

    I am glad we agree.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 7,906Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vhaln


    OF COURSE some people want to play the janitor on the deathstar - and some people don't.
    but come on, at least it's a way to be on the proverbial deathstar, maybe even in a way that's actually plausible - which for some of us, makes the experience better, even if it means some drudgery.
    Thing is, I bet half the people who claim they only want to be heroes find themselves playing farmville. People who don't get how gameplay trumps the setting by a huge margin. I would bet that even literally playing a janitor would be fun, if the mechanics made it interesting and dynamic. Course, the problem would be selling a game like that.
    but emphasize that it's on the deathstar, put the janitor part in fine print, and you'd be good to go. If it turns out to be a good game, just selling it to the people who don't read the fine print would be a strong enough start for word of mouth to carry it all the way to mass popularity.
    Next thing you know, people'd be praising it for being something new and different, and not just another World of Jedi clone.
     

     

    Maybe some people really want to play Janitor. Fine. But WHY ON EARTH do you want a Star Wars game waste time and effort into THAT? I mean, can't they just go and play Farmville or what? When Bioware is making STAR WARS, I dont want them to waste time on Janitor story-lines! if someone is happy being janitor, fine, but be so somewhere else. If money and time were endless, ok, but a company has only so and so many ressources, and stuffing that into exciting Janitor quests means, less heroic quests for me. And that is where my tolerance for "each to his" ends! Less for me just ain't good.

    I never ever got why people pay a monthly fee to do something menial like crafting or gathering roots as less as I can imgine people whipping themselves for fun. I know ppl do, and I tolerate saying "let them". But pls do so somewhere where it does not take away the ressources of time and money from games I DONT want to be made of the professions Janitor, Plumber, Carpenter and Cleaning Personell! I mean, if some like to play that in games, fine with me. But maybe you try all those many mindless games like Farmville and their ilk, where you dont even have to pay and leave our P2P games for us heroes. I mean, feel free to wipe the floor behind me after the mess I made among my foes, if you like... but don't expect game companies to waste the precious time making quests for such absurdity.

    I mean, what quest does "Janitor" contain? Level 1: Mop dirty floor, Level 2: mop very dirty floor, Level 3: mob nauseating smelly floor... You know, if you enjoy this, you can do that and GET money, you know? You dont HAVE to pay for it. Its called REAL LIFE. Try it. There are plenty of floors to mop and toilets to clean there.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • NovaKayneNovaKayne Houston, TXPosts: 743Member
    Originally posted by Elikal

    Originally posted by Vhaln


    OF COURSE some people want to play the janitor on the deathstar - and some people don't.
    but come on, at least it's a way to be on the proverbial deathstar, maybe even in a way that's actually plausible - which for some of us, makes the experience better, even if it means some drudgery.
    Thing is, I bet half the people who claim they only want to be heroes find themselves playing farmville. People who don't get how gameplay trumps the setting by a huge margin. I would bet that even literally playing a janitor would be fun, if the mechanics made it interesting and dynamic. Course, the problem would be selling a game like that.
    but emphasize that it's on the deathstar, put the janitor part in fine print, and you'd be good to go. If it turns out to be a good game, just selling it to the people who don't read the fine print would be a strong enough start for word of mouth to carry it all the way to mass popularity.
    Next thing you know, people'd be praising it for being something new and different, and not just another World of Jedi clone.
     

     

    Maybe some people really want to play Janitor. Fine. But WHY ON EARTH do you want a Star Wars game waste time and effort into THAT? I mean, can't they just go and play Farmville or what? When Bioware is making STAR WARS, I dont want them to waste time on Janitor story-lines! if someone is happy being janitor, fine, but be so somewhere else. If money and time were endless, ok, but a company has only so and so many ressources, and stuffing that into exciting Janitor quests means, less heroic quests for me. And that is where my tolerance for "each to his" ends! Less for me just ain't good.

    I never ever got why people pay a monthly fee to do something menial like crafting or gathering roots as less as I can imgine people whipping themselves for fun. I know ppl do, and I tolerate saying "let them". But pls do so somewhere where it does not take away the ressources of time and money from games I DONT want to be made of the professions Janitor, Plumber, Carpenter and Cleaning Personell! I mean, if some like to play that in games, fine with me. But maybe you try all those many mindless games like Farmville and their ilk, where you dont even have to pay and leave our P2P games for us heroes. I mean, feel free to wipe the floor behind me after the mess I made among my foes, if you like... but don't expect game companies to waste the precious time making quests for such absurdity.

    I mean, what quest does "Janitor" contain? Level 1: Mop dirty floor, Level 2: mop very dirty floor, Level 3: mob nauseating smelly floor... You know, if you enjoy this, you can do that and GET money, you know? You dont HAVE to pay for it. Its called REAL LIFE. Try it. There are plenty of floors to mop and toilets to clean there.



     

    Why?

     

    Because the person who plays the janitor is likely to be a longer lasting subscriber than the one who makes it to the end game and gets bored with the repitition.

     

    Because the person playing the Janitor likes to RP being in the world of SWG and being mundane.  Does not care to run around with the light saber.  Does not care about the pew pew.

     

    That person enjoys the virtual world and the various things he/she can do in there to act out life in a different world.  They like to walk around and comment on the various areas of the environment.  They like to explore.

     

    Just think about being the first person to find the toilet on the DS.  Peeps would be like "WHOA!  I KNEW there had to be one!  I found it!"  and others would flock to see....

     

    Or walk around the meeting room that took place in the first film, or re-enact a fight scene from RoJ with mop handles... 

     

    Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.

  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 7,906Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by NovaKayne

    Originally posted by Elikal

    Originally posted by Vhaln


    OF COURSE some people want to play the janitor on the deathstar - and some people don't.
    but come on, at least it's a way to be on the proverbial deathstar, maybe even in a way that's actually plausible - which for some of us, makes the experience better, even if it means some drudgery.
    Thing is, I bet half the people who claim they only want to be heroes find themselves playing farmville. People who don't get how gameplay trumps the setting by a huge margin. I would bet that even literally playing a janitor would be fun, if the mechanics made it interesting and dynamic. Course, the problem would be selling a game like that.
    but emphasize that it's on the deathstar, put the janitor part in fine print, and you'd be good to go. If it turns out to be a good game, just selling it to the people who don't read the fine print would be a strong enough start for word of mouth to carry it all the way to mass popularity.
    Next thing you know, people'd be praising it for being something new and different, and not just another World of Jedi clone.
     

     

    Maybe some people really want to play Janitor. Fine. But WHY ON EARTH do you want a Star Wars game waste time and effort into THAT? I mean, can't they just go and play Farmville or what? When Bioware is making STAR WARS, I dont want them to waste time on Janitor story-lines! if someone is happy being janitor, fine, but be so somewhere else. If money and time were endless, ok, but a company has only so and so many ressources, and stuffing that into exciting Janitor quests means, less heroic quests for me. And that is where my tolerance for "each to his" ends! Less for me just ain't good.

    I never ever got why people pay a monthly fee to do something menial like crafting or gathering roots as less as I can imgine people whipping themselves for fun. I know ppl do, and I tolerate saying "let them". But pls do so somewhere where it does not take away the ressources of time and money from games I DONT want to be made of the professions Janitor, Plumber, Carpenter and Cleaning Personell! I mean, if some like to play that in games, fine with me. But maybe you try all those many mindless games like Farmville and their ilk, where you dont even have to pay and leave our P2P games for us heroes. I mean, feel free to wipe the floor behind me after the mess I made among my foes, if you like... but don't expect game companies to waste the precious time making quests for such absurdity.

    I mean, what quest does "Janitor" contain? Level 1: Mop dirty floor, Level 2: mop very dirty floor, Level 3: mob nauseating smelly floor... You know, if you enjoy this, you can do that and GET money, you know? You dont HAVE to pay for it. Its called REAL LIFE. Try it. There are plenty of floors to mop and toilets to clean there.



     

    Why?

     

    Because the person who plays the janitor is likely to be a longer lasting subscriber than the one who makes it to the end game and gets bored with the repitition.

     

    Because the person playing the Janitor likes to RP being in the world of SWG and being mundane.  Does not care to run around with the light saber.  Does not care about the pew pew.

     

    That person enjoys the virtual world and the various things he/she can do in there to act out life in a different world.  They like to walk around and comment on the various areas of the environment.  They like to explore.

     

    Just think about being the first person to find the toilet on the DS.  Peeps would be like "WHOA!  I KNEW there had to be one!  I found it!"  and others would flock to see....

     

    Or walk around the meeting room that took place in the first film, or re-enact a fight scene from RoJ with mop handles... 

     

     

    Yes... I can already see it: the next 10 years of MMOs.

    Star Wars: Adventures of Jo'nn the Plumber and Do'E the Janitor!

    Everquest III: The Cleaning of Qeynos Wars!

    World of Cleancraft II

    LOTRO Addon II: Be Farmer Maggot and hunt crops eating bunnies!

     

    Who needs Dragons when you can hunt cockroaches!

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • neonakaneonaka Smithsburg, MDPosts: 777Member

    Elikal,

    This all goes back to my post about people wanting a reality inside of a false reality.

    If people really want to be a janitor, please go to your local department store, and tell them you wish to apply for the janitorial position. I am fairly certain they will have a job for you.

    If you want to play a game, odds are it was designed for just that, a game. A place where you can sit down, have a little fun before you have to run to work, cook some dinner, or get your kids in some pj's for bed. They are designed to take your money and let you smile a little each day. Nothing more nothing less.

    There really is nothing fun about cleaning up poopy toilets or mopping up some floors. Though I would think that slapping on some plate and a shield, grabbing your super duper blackdeath sword of doom, to take down Redtail the scourge of mankind is much more entertaining.

    Seriously, I do not know what this whole thread was about. Well I mean I do, it was in ref. to the article that was written. Though the writer of the article doesn't understand the concepts of MMO's it seems, as it really is about the group and not the individual. He does understand quite well, that in a game, honestly, everyone wants to be great in some way.

    If you didn't you wouldn't play anyway, because being a janitor at the local pizza hut, should be more than sufficient for you.

  • DeeweDeewe Long Beach, CAPosts: 1,965Member

    Ok seems I'm going to feed the trolls once again, I mean the columnist as obviously this article was written not to be fairly accurate but to make people post and boost the viewed ads.

     

    We all know the hero concept isn't working in MMO. So much has been said on the subject that I wouldn't even know were to start. It's so washed out that it's becoming transparent... only nice on utterly sexy chicks!

     

    There are mainly 2 paths for MMO today. The first one is fast food game play (WoW and clones) the second one is more towards fine cuisine game play  (EvE and so). Mostly everybody enjoys fast food. Clients know the served food is always fresh and hygienically controlled, however it's not gourmet dishes. Mc Do is certainly more well known and making much more $$$ than the best of the best restaurant in the world. It's the same in the gaming world.

     

    Back to games: most MMO carbon copy WoW game play, read: an enhanced version of Diablo. While that's a fun game play I would be pretty much surprised if players came to me saying how they feel heroic for killing this or that mob... for the nth time. Even killing bosses in Diablo was getting something mundane after the first time. As pointed by others, contrary to single player RPG, as you usually fight a boss only once along your carrier, and nobody else around you carry his head as trophy either at his belt.

     

    Now what I've been somehow surprised is in some MMORPGs (that allows them to do so), players love to be able to do something else than just killing mobs. There are literally millions of players that don't want to fight in games and even more that don't care at all about being a badass. Just look at how successful are the social online games, most of them don't even have combat game play.

     

    In the end he hero concept might work for people with certain level of ego, lack of imagination, or younger players in need of achievements, but other than that it's a flawed design concept.

  • KhalathwyrKhalathwyr Denton, TXPosts: 3,138Member

    I don't know what's more pathetic. The fact that some of the people replying don't know what a figure of speech is with respect to "being the janitor" or the elitist, condescending replies by those who must have every game made cater to their exact tastes and to hell with those who don't like what they like. I take it back. I do know what's more pathetic.

    I'm not going to go into some long winded speech about how each person's view of being "heroic" isn't exactly the same and how some folks seemingly have a more expansive imagination than others as they can include being a "janitor" in their heroic tale. The fact that remains is this. Those people exist and in great number. Any MMO developer looking to maximize subscription numbers would be wise to include both elements. Both elements being non-combat focused professions as well as combat ones.

    Focusing on combat has gotten us where we are today. We have a sizeable portion of the gaming community not happy about the quality of P2P titles being released and also a very sizeable portion not happy that games aren't including significant non-combat roles like we saw in UO and SWG(pre NGE). Quality will always be suspect when compared to inclusion of the non-combat role which can be very easily done if planned for in the beginning.

    The combat, combat, combat mentality has caused a serious rot to infest this genre of gaming. A turn from this arcady, Tekken style of game design to a more sim-like one (which doesn't mean you have to participate in the non-combat or that the combat will "suck") may bring back some of the "umph" MMO gaming desperately needs.

    "Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."

    Kickstarter 2 / Naysayers 0

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