Deal with it. Of course there's a middleground. If you like grouping and I like soloing then a game with both types of content obviously caters to both of us. The problem with extremists is that they're not happy with just being catered to .. they require that all other playstyles are excluded. AAA games cost millions of dollers. Dozens of millions of dollars. In some cases, upwards of a hundred million dollars. Now you tell me, you're an investor. Do you risk that amount of money on a minority of vocal forum trolls who can't even agree on what day of the week it is?
Of course there isn't a middleground. If you look at the issue like someone just out of kindergarten of course the answer seems to be as simple as that.
The problem with non-extremists is that they live in an imaginary world where all other playstyles aren't exluded from their game. The reality, though, is much as you described.Catering to you means other playstyles are excluded.
I would take the risk, since it looks like doing it the safe way isn't working any better. Or I would make the niche mainstream- the current players of WoW didn't just come from other MMO's, they're a whole new mass of players- and there are more of them waiting to be lured in, with that particular playstyle.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Ok so you see other people running around, and can talk to them. Just put a messenger on the screen, then you have your chat box in a single player game. Not much difference. Again I just think its contradictory to log into a multiplayer game to play by yourself. I guess I just dont understand whats the big alure is to just seeing other people and being able to talk, but not wanting to play with them. Something isnt right here. Its like playing call of duty online, but playing in a private match by yourself. It makes no sense. You log into online games to play with other people. Grouping up to grind mobs is not the only form of player interaction. PvP. Economy. Politics. Socialisation. RP. Grouping. Raiding.
Grouping, raiding, and pvp is not solo play You may not be arguing this but a LOT of the pro-solo people will argue that solo'ers shouldnt have to group/raid for equal gear.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
AAA games post WoW that have zero solo content: DDO. They soon changed that.
AAA games post WoW that have zero group content: None. AAA games have always catered to both playstyles by including solo and group content. AoC was the epitome of this philosophy, every zone had a solo instance and group instance. I always wondered why the groupers don't play it. It's AAA. It's a good game (better now than at launch) and you can group for the entirety of the game in the Epic zone instances without being forced to ever solo. So you tell me; why aren't you all playing AoC?
So you don't even have the playstyle of extremists figured out do you? Assuming things doesn't really work in the long run, especially when the argument requires you to know what you're talking about.
Hint: neither group of extremists want "zero" of anything.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
AAA games post WoW that have zero solo content: DDO. They soon changed that.
AAA games post WoW that have zero group content: None. AAA games have always catered to both playstyles by including solo and group content. AoC was the epitome of this philosophy, every zone had a solo instance and group instance. I always wondered why the groupers don't play it. It's AAA. It's a good game (better now than at launch) and you can group for the entirety of the game in the Epic zone instances without being forced to ever solo. So you tell me; why aren't you all playing AoC?
So you don't even have the playstyle of extremists figured out do you? Assuming things doesn't really work in the long run, especially when the argument requires you to know what you're talking about.
Hint: neither group of extremists want "zero" of anything.
then why are you saying that if a game allows people to solo, they will solo, automatically gimping your ability to group?
Originally posted by Archemorous then why are you saying that if a game allows people to solo, they will solo, automatically gimping your ability to group?
Have I?
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Originally posted by toddze this isnt my fight but i am going to put in my 2 cents here. I want you to name AAA games post wow thats made a game for groupers. Now name games post wow that was made for solo'ers.
AAA games post WoW that have zero solo content: DDO. They soon changed that.
AAA games post WoW that have zero group content: None.
AAA games have always catered to both playstyles by including solo and group content. AoC was the epitome of this philosophy, every zone had a solo instance and group instance.
I always wondered why the groupers don't play it. It's AAA. It's a good game (better now than at launch) and you can group for the entirety of the game in the Epic zone instances without being forced to ever solo. So you tell me; why aren't you all playing AoC?
I played AoC at launch. technical problems aside. No one grouped in that game. unless they needed something and even then soloing was easier thus no one wanted to group for the harder conent because the rewards were not great enough to that of what you could solo (thats why you cant have both in a game). I consider AoC more of a solo game. I solo'ed 80%. Its extremly hard to group when solo'ing is such a viable option
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
Originally posted by Archemorous then why are you saying that if a game allows people to solo, they will solo, automatically gimping your ability to group?
Have I?
Yeah. You remember when I said that when many people choose a gamestyle (in this case, solo), devs will start catering more to them? Well, you agreed and said something along the lines of 'then they will make more games like that and less games like the ones i like'. That sort of thing. Also, if everyone in your favourite mmo is now soloing because its more fun and more rewarding, they are not grouping wth you, kinda saying that they prefer to be alone than with you.
Also, there is this:
Originally posted by toddze
I played AoC at launch. technical problems aside. No one grouped in that game. unless they needed something and even then soloing was easier thus no one wanted to group for the harder conent because the rewards were not great enough to that of what you could solo (thats why you cant have both in a game). I consider AoC more of a solo game. I solo'ed 80%. Its extremly hard to group when solo'ing is such a viable option
So you see now why I said what I said. But if I misunderstood you, then by all means, I apologize =D
Originally posted by Hyanmen Hint: neither group of extremists want "zero" of anything.
Yes, they do.
A group extremist is one who wants a game with zero soloing.
A solo extremist is one who wants a game where everything can be soloed.
That's what makes them extremists.
There are only those kind of people in your imaginary world. It's weird, twisting reality to make your own point seem more valid. Not that I didn't expect it though.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Originally posted by Hyanmen Hint: neither group of extremists want "zero" of anything.
Yes, they do.
A group extremist is one who wants a game with zero soloing.
A solo extremist is one who wants a game where everything can be soloed.
That's what makes them extremists.
There are only those kind of people in your imaginary world. It's weird, twisting reality to make your own point seem more valid. Not that I didn't expect it though.
Yeah. You remember when I said that when many people choose a gamestyle (in this case, solo), devs will start catering more to them? Well, you agreed and said something along the lines of 'then they will make more games like that and less games like the ones i like'. That sort of thing. Also, if everyone in your favourite mmo is now soloing because its more fun and more rewarding, they are not grouping wth you, kinda saying that they prefer to be alone than with you. So you see now why I said what I said. But if I misunderstood you, then by all means, I apologize =D
Just being able to solo won't do that, but when the tip changes towards soloers then everyone solos. If the tip scaled towards grouping, everyone groups. Having solo or grouping feature alone won't do anything, but how it's set up and which playstyle gets more attention from the devs.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Grouping, raiding, and pvp is not solo play You may not be arguing this but a LOT of the pro-solo people will argue that solo'ers shouldnt have to group/raid for equal gear.
I haven't made that argument.
For me, the gear doesn't matter. My only concern is having fun stuff to do that suits my preferences. I've never been the type to be concerned about epeen in an MMO.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Yeah. You remember when I said that when many people choose a gamestyle (in this case, solo), devs will start catering more to them? Well, you agreed and said something along the lines of 'then they will make more games like that and less games like the ones i like'. That sort of thing. Also, if everyone in your favourite mmo is now soloing because its more fun and more rewarding, they are not grouping wth you, kinda saying that they prefer to be alone than with you. So you see now why I said what I said. But if I misunderstood you, then by all means, I apologize =D
Just being able to solo won't do that, but when the tip changes towards soloers then everyone solos. If the tip scaled towards grouping, everyone groups. Having solo or grouping feature alone won't do anything, but how it's set up and which playstyle gets more attention from the devs.
No, what having both as viable options will do is that people will choose what is more fun to them, regardless of loot or status. I dont want or need more rewards for my soloing than you for your group content, I dont. But I want some kind of reward. I think thats fair.
Originally posted by Hyanmen Hint: neither group of extremists want "zero" of anything.
Yes, they do.
A group extremist is one who wants a game with zero soloing.
A solo extremist is one who wants a game where everything can be soloed.
That's what makes them extremists.
There are only those kind of people in your imaginary world. It's weird, twisting reality to make your own point seem more valid. Not that I didn't expect it though.
So as a player who enjoys grouping and solo play, I must live in an imaginary world as well because I see the same extreme POVs that IIv is mentioning?
No one is twisting anything. Look through all the topics on this subject and read through each thread. You will see every extremist view from both sides.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
No, what having both as viable options will do is that people will choose what is more fun to them, regardless of loot or status. I dont want or need more rewards for my soloing than you for your group content, I dont. But I want some kind of reward. I think thats fair.
Yeah, if both were viable options. They aren't. One is, one isn't.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
No, what having both as viable options will do is that people will choose what is more fun to them, regardless of loot or status. I dont want or need more rewards for my soloing than you for your group content, I dont. But I want some kind of reward. I think thats fair.
Yeah, if both were viable options. They aren't. One is, one isn't.
Well, in that case, this is the end of the line for me. This is where we agree to disagree
Originally posted by Hyanmen Hint: neither group of extremists want "zero" of anything.
Yes, they do.
A group extremist is one who wants a game with zero soloing.
A solo extremist is one who wants a game where everything can be soloed.
That's what makes them extremists.
There are only those kind of people in your imaginary world. It's weird, twisting reality to make your own point seem more valid. Not that I didn't expect it though.
Yeah, you might wanna pay a bit more attention to the group vs solo threads of recent history. There are a lot of extremists around. You haven't actually stated your own preferences in this debate yet, (being seemingly content to disagree with other peoples) but my instinct is that you belong to the group extremist crowd who believes that the only way a game can cater to a group playstyle is to remove the option of viable solo play so that everyone has to group to progress.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
No, what having both as viable options will do is that people will choose what is more fun to them, regardless of loot or status. I dont want or need more rewards for my soloing than you for your group content, I dont. But I want some kind of reward. I think thats fair.
Yeah, if both were viable options. They aren't. One is, one isn't.
Thats where the line gets a bit fuzzy.
In almost all MMOs both can be viable and often are. The problem is which is 'preferable'?
Both options can be equally viable, but its the player base that really decides which option is preferable in the end. Thats when you see the shit to one play style being the most popular in a game.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Originally posted by fyerwall So as a player who enjoys grouping and solo play, I must live in an imaginary world as well because I see the same extreme POVs that IIv is mentioning?
No one is twisting anything. Look through all the topics on this subject and read through each thread. You will see every extremist view from both sides.
Well, if you really want me to say it, yes.
Someone is twisting the general opinion of the said extremists. This may come as a surprise, but in your team there are retards who spout nonsense as well as intelligent individuals with an actual point. I can come and tell you that the opinion of said retards is the opinion of everyone in your team. Now would that be twisting or not?
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Comments
Of course there isn't a middleground. If you look at the issue like someone just out of kindergarten of course the answer seems to be as simple as that.
The problem with non-extremists is that they live in an imaginary world where all other playstyles aren't exluded from their game. The reality, though, is much as you described.Catering to you means other playstyles are excluded.
I would take the risk, since it looks like doing it the safe way isn't working any better. Or I would make the niche mainstream- the current players of WoW didn't just come from other MMO's, they're a whole new mass of players- and there are more of them waiting to be lured in, with that particular playstyle.
Grouping, raiding, and pvp is not solo play You may not be arguing this but a LOT of the pro-solo people will argue that solo'ers shouldnt have to group/raid for equal gear.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Sorry i couldnt help but giggle at the sight of someone saying that 'non-extremists' live in a dream world =D
So you don't even have the playstyle of extremists figured out do you? Assuming things doesn't really work in the long run, especially when the argument requires you to know what you're talking about.
Hint: neither group of extremists want "zero" of anything.
So you don't even have the playstyle of extremists figured out do you? Assuming things doesn't really work in the long run, especially when the argument requires you to know what you're talking about.
Hint: neither group of extremists want "zero" of anything.
then why are you saying that if a game allows people to solo, they will solo, automatically gimping your ability to group?
Have I?
AAA games post WoW that have zero solo content: DDO. They soon changed that.
AAA games post WoW that have zero group content: None.
AAA games have always catered to both playstyles by including solo and group content. AoC was the epitome of this philosophy, every zone had a solo instance and group instance.
I always wondered why the groupers don't play it. It's AAA. It's a good game (better now than at launch) and you can group for the entirety of the game in the Epic zone instances without being forced to ever solo. So you tell me; why aren't you all playing AoC?
I played AoC at launch. technical problems aside. No one grouped in that game. unless they needed something and even then soloing was easier thus no one wanted to group for the harder conent because the rewards were not great enough to that of what you could solo (thats why you cant have both in a game). I consider AoC more of a solo game. I solo'ed 80%. Its extremly hard to group when solo'ing is such a viable option
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Yes, they do.
A group extremist is one who wants a game with zero soloing.
A solo extremist is one who wants a game where everything can be soloed.
That's what makes them extremists.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Have I?
Yeah. You remember when I said that when many people choose a gamestyle (in this case, solo), devs will start catering more to them? Well, you agreed and said something along the lines of 'then they will make more games like that and less games like the ones i like'. That sort of thing. Also, if everyone in your favourite mmo is now soloing because its more fun and more rewarding, they are not grouping wth you, kinda saying that they prefer to be alone than with you.
Also, there is this:
Originally posted by toddze
I played AoC at launch. technical problems aside. No one grouped in that game. unless they needed something and even then soloing was easier thus no one wanted to group for the harder conent because the rewards were not great enough to that of what you could solo (thats why you cant have both in a game). I consider AoC more of a solo game. I solo'ed 80%. Its extremly hard to group when solo'ing is such a viable option
So you see now why I said what I said. But if I misunderstood you, then by all means, I apologize =D
Yes, they do.
A group extremist is one who wants a game with zero soloing.
A solo extremist is one who wants a game where everything can be soloed.
That's what makes them extremists.
There are only those kind of people in your imaginary world. It's weird, twisting reality to make your own point seem more valid. Not that I didn't expect it though.
Yes, they do.
A group extremist is one who wants a game with zero soloing.
A solo extremist is one who wants a game where everything can be soloed.
That's what makes them extremists.
There are only those kind of people in your imaginary world. It's weird, twisting reality to make your own point seem more valid. Not that I didn't expect it though.
Im neither =D
Just being able to solo won't do that, but when the tip changes towards soloers then everyone solos. If the tip scaled towards grouping, everyone groups. Having solo or grouping feature alone won't do anything, but how it's set up and which playstyle gets more attention from the devs.
I haven't made that argument.
For me, the gear doesn't matter. My only concern is having fun stuff to do that suits my preferences. I've never been the type to be concerned about epeen in an MMO.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
But you are siding with the non-extreme soloists anyway. I'm not blaming you though, I'm blaming the devs.
You've been tossing the insults around for the past few pages already. I've been playing nice.
No need for me to resort to a flame war on this one; not when I'm clearly correct.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Just being able to solo won't do that, but when the tip changes towards soloers then everyone solos. If the tip scaled towards grouping, everyone groups. Having solo or grouping feature alone won't do anything, but how it's set up and which playstyle gets more attention from the devs.
No, what having both as viable options will do is that people will choose what is more fun to them, regardless of loot or status. I dont want or need more rewards for my soloing than you for your group content, I dont. But I want some kind of reward. I think thats fair.
Yes, they do.
A group extremist is one who wants a game with zero soloing.
A solo extremist is one who wants a game where everything can be soloed.
That's what makes them extremists.
There are only those kind of people in your imaginary world. It's weird, twisting reality to make your own point seem more valid. Not that I didn't expect it though.
So as a player who enjoys grouping and solo play, I must live in an imaginary world as well because I see the same extreme POVs that IIv is mentioning?
No one is twisting anything. Look through all the topics on this subject and read through each thread. You will see every extremist view from both sides.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
You've been tossing the insults around for the past few pages already. I've been playing nice.
No need for me to resort to a flame war on this one; not when I'm clearly correct.
At least I didn't drop the argument while doing so. Can you prove me wrong or not?
But you are siding with the non-extreme soloists anyway. I'm not blaming you though, I'm blaming the devs.
Because they are advocating for choice, and I just dont think you are. Nothing against you, just that. sorry =(
Yeah, if both were viable options. They aren't. One is, one isn't.
But you are siding with the non-extreme soloists anyway. I'm not blaming you though, I'm blaming the devs.
Because they are advocating for choice, and I just dont think you are. Nothing against you, just that. sorry =(
They aren't advocating for choice, they are advocating the playstyle the devs happen to prefer. They are not equal.
Yeah, if both were viable options. They aren't. One is, one isn't.
Well, in that case, this is the end of the line for me. This is where we agree to disagree
Yes, they do.
A group extremist is one who wants a game with zero soloing.
A solo extremist is one who wants a game where everything can be soloed.
That's what makes them extremists.
There are only those kind of people in your imaginary world. It's weird, twisting reality to make your own point seem more valid. Not that I didn't expect it though.
Yeah, you might wanna pay a bit more attention to the group vs solo threads of recent history. There are a lot of extremists around. You haven't actually stated your own preferences in this debate yet, (being seemingly content to disagree with other peoples) but my instinct is that you belong to the group extremist crowd who believes that the only way a game can cater to a group playstyle is to remove the option of viable solo play so that everyone has to group to progress.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Yeah, if both were viable options. They aren't. One is, one isn't.
Thats where the line gets a bit fuzzy.
In almost all MMOs both can be viable and often are. The problem is which is 'preferable'?
Both options can be equally viable, but its the player base that really decides which option is preferable in the end. Thats when you see the shit to one play style being the most popular in a game.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Well, if you really want me to say it, yes.
Someone is twisting the general opinion of the said extremists. This may come as a surprise, but in your team there are retards who spout nonsense as well as intelligent individuals with an actual point. I can come and tell you that the opinion of said retards is the opinion of everyone in your team. Now would that be twisting or not?