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So why the anger against botting?

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  • greed0104greed0104 Peru, INPosts: 2,134Member
    Originally posted by Angier2758


    Not really a spoiled brat sorry.  I just don't see how grinding easy mobs makes me a man.  If we wanted to have a discussion about sissy brats and men.. lets go cut down trees or something.
    but after playing these games for 10 years now I've seen the games regress into carebear lovey dovey land and the players become even bigger jerks.  Top legion on my server and they run from a 2 on 1 fight to their guards......
     
    If I could hack the game and insta kill whoever I wanted... I totally would.
     
    PS- before I have to go...  It isn't ironic because a lot of the pve in these games isn't playing, it's tedious work.  Like if you had to type "Sarah Smith Had a Very Soft Sheep" 5,000 times to level.

    The final sentence holds truth, but if you can't deal with it, why play? Plenty other games coming out trying to eliminate the grind. Well not exactly eliminate it, it will always be there, but you can cover it up so it's hardly noticable. To be honest AION is a borefest. But I wouldn't resort to this, what's the point bro? It has nothing to do with being a "man" it has more to do with why spend money on something you have to exploit to enjoy?

  • eburneburn Winchester, VAPosts: 740Member

    It's sort of like cheating. Even tho' honestly 99% of ALL mmorpgs the gameplay just turns humans into grinding robots. So I stopped thinking that way about 2001.

    I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.

  • winterwinter El Paso, TXPosts: 2,277Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Angier2758




     
    Back when I was in highschool.  You could get busted for using a TI calculator program to do the math for you.  Some could work out equations and some calculus... but it's cheating.  There was a guy in my class who wrote one of these programs.  Someone saw him using it on a test.  The teacher goes "He can use it, he programmed it.  If he understood the lesson well enough to make a program for it he's obviously going to do well on the test regardless."  He showed the teacher beforehand of course.  That's kind of my point..... if it's easy enough that people can make a program to do it.... why not?
    Assuming the program takes knowledge of the game to use... otherwise you end up with an ebay'ish problem.



     

     Ok let me see if i get you right here. if someones smart enough to make a program to screw others over (as has been explained to you in many post here) then they should be allowed to screw others over? Forget the point your bot progerams raising prices or keeping other from completing quests because your either killing all the mobs needed of stealing thiers its ok because you got a program? (and lets not kid yourself you probably didn't program it as your to lazy to play the game your probably to lazy to invest the effort to write the bot program).

      The other poster was right you don't understand and no amount of explaining will probably help you understand. MMO's are social games about other people beside yourself. You can only see your desires though and dispite all the messages people have posted pointing out how botting hurts other's games your like "screw them I got what i wanted". Please do everyone a favor if the games to boring to play as intended then don't play it, and as you really don't care about other people playing the game  and are more then willing to evidently screw people over to get what you want please play a single player game where you can bot to your hearts content.  Trust me using a bot to try and show your better then others really isn't impressing anyone except maybe yourself.

  • winterwinter El Paso, TXPosts: 2,277Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Angier2758




     
    You're probably right, but I try to find the fun somewhere in these games.  I haven't botted yet, but I've taken a look around.  I'd rather skip to 50 and play that... my main is sitting at 43.6 and honestly I've lost all enjoyment on the pve side with him even though apparently I play well enough that people cry that I fell behind leveling and can't group with them anymore.
    And as I said above..  I really like the idea of making all those idiots I run into in these games to feel like their accomplishments meant nothing.  Also to be blunt...it's a video game none of the accomplishments mean jack shit anyhow.
     



     

     But evidently the accomplishments mean something to you as you feel the need to play a game you find dull, and boring to get said acheivements. Truely wake up and look in the mirror, you've only become part of what you claim to hate.

      You've also made it plain why you play or should we say bot the game. Your whole goal is simply as you stated to make other that you feel are "idiots" pay because they accomplished something within the rules that you could not. Really you are pretty sad as you don't play for fun but simply out of hate.

  • DoomsayerDoomsayer Whittier, CAPosts: 344Member

    Man, you have caught a ton of fish with this bait, well done.

    ________________________________

    Everything born must die. All that is, will come to ruin. This is the essence of Doom. So sayeth the Doomsayer.

  • QuailmanQuailman marlborough, MAPosts: 165Member
    Originally posted by Doomsayer


    Man, you have caught a ton of fish with this bait, well done.

     

    Indeed, I've enjoyed reading some of the responses.

    Consume. Be silent. Die.

  • abyss610abyss610 northern cambria, PAPosts: 1,131Member
    Originally posted by Angier2758

    Originally posted by joker007mo


    oh its the fact that everything the bots farm  causes the ah prices to go through the roof you cant complete quests because kill so many of x you go out there to find 3 bots completly eradicating everything in the area.
    where you have to compete against a bot just to get a kill and if you dont do as much damage as the gladiator your screwed .
      several times i would spend a significant amount of time whacking away at a mob with the equivilent of a butter knife  get  the mob next to dead only to have a bot run in  after resting finish your kill  and just run along its path to grab mobs and kill them
    if the bot was simply minding his own business id say ok i can live with that its when the bot is ganking kills from me because i cant kill faster or do as much damage so the kill can just be stolen which its pretty shitty for that to happen anyway i can adjust to a bot decimating the landscape but when ive clearly already been killing a mob to have it run in and pwn me is just f-ed up



     

     

    I'm not talking the chinese gold farmers.  I'm talking regular players who obviously won't be hitting 50 first hopping on a bot and minding their own business.  Is that really morally bad?  And yeah it's against the rules.. you get caught you pay the price.   Assuming you have a college degree (sometimes you don't even need that) your time is of more value than the risk of getting caught.   Is this like a throwback to the D&D days where it would take forever to max out a character?   It's supposed to take long?



     

    a normal player botting would be no different than a gold farmer botting, BOTH will have aquired way more than average gold amassed on their account wich will flood the market driving prices through the roof. and players that DON'T bot and refuse to CHEAT will be at a serious dissadvantage because thier computer isn't exping/farming gold for them while they sleep, school, work, or just not in the mood to actually play.

    bot programs don't just kill and leave the dead mob lay there, they will loot everything and anything and once full will go to town junk unusables and bank rares for the player to AH when they get on. say you make 100k adverage in a gaming stint of 4 hours of playing, you then bot the other 20 hours. normally you'd only have made 100k but since you cheated you made a total of 600k a day. see what i'm getting at here?

    so to sum it up, botters RUIN THE ECONOMY gold sellers or not!

  • Angier2758Angier2758 Mt. Prospect, ILPosts: 1,009Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by abyss610

    Originally posted by Angier2758

    Originally posted by joker007mo


    oh its the fact that everything the bots farm  causes the ah prices to go through the roof you cant complete quests because kill so many of x you go out there to find 3 bots completly eradicating everything in the area.
    where you have to compete against a bot just to get a kill and if you dont do as much damage as the gladiator your screwed .
      several times i would spend a significant amount of time whacking away at a mob with the equivilent of a butter knife  get  the mob next to dead only to have a bot run in  after resting finish your kill  and just run along its path to grab mobs and kill them
    if the bot was simply minding his own business id say ok i can live with that its when the bot is ganking kills from me because i cant kill faster or do as much damage so the kill can just be stolen which its pretty shitty for that to happen anyway i can adjust to a bot decimating the landscape but when ive clearly already been killing a mob to have it run in and pwn me is just f-ed up



     

     

    I'm not talking the chinese gold farmers.  I'm talking regular players who obviously won't be hitting 50 first hopping on a bot and minding their own business.  Is that really morally bad?  And yeah it's against the rules.. you get caught you pay the price.   Assuming you have a college degree (sometimes you don't even need that) your time is of more value than the risk of getting caught.   Is this like a throwback to the D&D days where it would take forever to max out a character?   It's supposed to take long?



     

    a normal player botting would be no different than a gold farmer botting, BOTH will have aquired way more than average gold amassed on their account wich will flood the market driving prices through the roof. and players that DON'T bot and refuse to CHEAT will be at a serious dissadvantage because thier computer isn't exping/farming gold for them while they sleep, school, work, or just not in the mood to actually play.

    bot programs don't just kill and leave the dead mob lay there, they will loot everything and anything and once full will go to town junk unusables and bank rares for the player to AH when they get on. say you make 100k adverage in a gaming stint of 4 hours of playing, you then bot the other 20 hours. normally you'd only have made 100k but since you cheated you made a total of 600k a day. see what i'm getting at here?

    so to sum it up, botters RUIN THE ECONOMY gold sellers or not!



     

    Honestly... I'm sitting here reading the Aion forums and there are people crying that double xp weekend is not fair to be the people who matter because they already got 50 (verbatim).

     

    Not gonna lie I *hope* I ruin the game for those people and I would do it with a smile on my face.  

  • LexiscatLexiscat Troy, MIPosts: 204Member
    Originally posted by nikoliath



     

    Some of us hate it for the same reason we hate to sit at a card table with cheaters. The fact is, botting is against the rules, rules that the rest of us adhere to btw.

     

    Could of ended the thread with this. If its allowed, awesome. If not, awesome. Rules change the way a game is played.

    A deck of cards is transformed into many different games purely based on the rules that are enforced. 

    What a powerful thing, a rule is. The power to create, the power to destroy, and the power to test.

    “Nothing excites jaded Grandmasters more than a theoretical novelty”

  • xephonicsxephonics plainville, GAPosts: 672Member Common

     my main reasons for hating botters in mmos:

    They ruin the economy (even one person can have negative effects)

    They tend to easily win in pvp/raids since they have higher lvls and gear that they did not actually earn

    They tend to KS and take up hunting spots that real players could use

    They are lazy, and lazy people annoy me in general

    My god has horns.... nah, I don't think he is real either.

  • ozerinxozerinx Irvine, CAPosts: 199Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Angier2758

    Originally posted by Omali


     I'll tell you about it when you're older.



     

    I am older.  That's the point.  Where is the negative morality of skipping something that is not challenging and is just tedious?   I've been playing MMO's since I was 16 when EQ came out... I get how to play and tweak a class in PVE. 

    If the game is about pvp... why do I have to sit through weeks of blah to get to what I enjoy?  Does it make me a better player?  Not really.  Does it show hardwork and dedication.... sure, but it's mostly tedious work... nothing hard about it.

     

     

    Where is the morality in toil?

     

    no offence... PvE 90% of the time link to ur PvP skill. Of course some games you can argue it but, take Ragnarok Online for example, grinding to level vs grinding to level fast and efficiently is VERY different. Botters can bot to 99 non-trans in ro in 1-2 weeks 24/7. A good player not even pro level can do it in a week, and have the reflex and skills from mobbing etc to use in pvp.

  • LynxJSALynxJSA Sarasota, FLPosts: 2,733Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Pheace


    It's ok. You don't get it. We realize some like you are out there, no need to get your feathers ruffled or anything.

     

    Seeing this as the first reply made my day.

     

    Thanks, Pheace! :)

     

  • The simple reason is the people who hate the botters the most are the people who behave the most like bots, ie. the ppl who love to grind.

     

    It is often functionally extremely hard to differentiate botters from grinders, the only obvious give aways are are the obvious setpoints and no reactions to potentially bad things.  For example I have a seen a botter (who was a normal player botting not a RMT bot) in a really high repop area who we could tell was botting mainly because they were not reacting appropriately to the crazy respawn in that area (some areas in Aion have insanely fast respawn, some of these areas are even fairly small and make little sense as to why).  Eventually their program failed and they had three things on them and died.  Otherwise they basically appeared like anyone else doing hours and hours of grinding in the same vicinity.  The other main giveawat was they had an obvious reset point when a mob died.

     

    Hatred is not really triggered in people by all that many causes.  They are hated because they are so similar, as opposed to simple dislike that is generally far more common.  Sad but true.  Love and hate two sides of the same coin.

     

    The funny thing is grind advocates hate it when you compare them to bots, but that is all they are human robots.  Its like an Issac Asimov novel or something ;P

     

    Note: this does not disqualify the valid exampels of bad effects bots have, but one should realize its all related.  Robots do some jobs better.  Grinding is robotic.  You are fighting gravity and you know it, so you hate it.  Rather than simply acknowledging a problem and dealing with it.

  • WSIMikeWSIMike Catskill, NYPosts: 5,564Member
    Originally posted by Angier2758

    Originally posted by MidniteHowl


    First it goes against just about all MMO games rules for playing the game. That's all I need to say about that part.
     
    Second, it's not the act that is the problem, it's the effect it has on the rest of the gamers that is the problem. Do you know why these people are using botting techniques? I'll tell ya. Most of these people do it because they are gold farmers/sellers. So they have bots automatically do the work for them just so they can try to make a buck by selling the stuff for real money, which in turn affects the in-game economy for the rest of us that actually do the work! Not only that, it's illegal in most games to sell in-game items for real money!
     
    I guess there's times where some regular people want to play the game but don't want to do the repetitve steps to do it and use bots to do the work for them. I wouldnt have a huge problem with this but unfortunately most will not use it for this reason. Besides if people want to eliminate a few steps, most games offer a macro editing tool that helps eliminate some of the button mashing and mouse-clicking steps. So whats wrong with this option? Why would you still need bots? Probably because you are doing something that goes against the Terms of Use agreement policy that we all say we agree to when we first enter a game.
     
     
     



     

    Back when I was in highschool.  You could get busted for using a TI calculator program to do the math for you.  Some could work out equations and some calculus... but it's cheating.  There was a guy in my class who wrote one of these programs.  Someone saw him using it on a test.  The teacher goes "He can use it, he programmed it.  If he understood the lesson well enough to make a program for it he's obviously going to do well on the test regardless."  He showed the teacher beforehand of course.  That's kind of my point..... if it's easy enough that people can make a program to do it.... why not?

    Assuming the program takes knowledge of the game to use... otherwise you end up with an ebay'ish problem.

    Ahhh yes... another of those people with the whole "I don't like the rules, so they shouldn't apply to me" mentality. Gotta love it.



    Tell ya what.. instead of arguing with us here on these forums where it's easy to just say "I'm right, and you're wrong"... why don't you take your debate to the people who make the rules and whose say *does* matter? Call up NCSoft - or any other MMO developer you know of - give them that little "school math test" analogy as a justification for why you should be allowed to bot because "you don't feel like grinding". See how much mileage you get out of that. NCSoft's phone number is available on their site, so you should have no problem contacting them.



    If you're *really* feeling confident in your position being right, make sure to give them your account info, server and character name and invite them to come watch you bot away while they watch.



    Make sure to come back and let us know how that turns out for ya.

    It's amazing the spoiled/entitled mentality people have these days.

    "If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road,
    and the cash shop selling asphalt..."
    - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops

    image

  • HricaHrica Mocksville, NCPosts: 1,123Member Uncommon

    To the OP

    I think you should be forced to stay in lvls 1-20 for about a 6-8 months to enjoy the all the details the talented programers have put into the  game.

  • warmaster670warmaster670 Simcoe, ONPosts: 1,384Member
    Originally posted by Angier2758


    Is it just people are angry that they sat at their computers targetting and keying in 1, 2 , 3 , 4, 1 for days and botters didn't?  I hear the "well you didn't work for it!" but it's a game I never intended to "work" at it.    MMORPG PVE in general for the last 10 years has been painfully boring.  You beat a monster a few times... why do it 3,000?  It really stops being a challenge after 1 or 2 (if that).


    so in other words you dont even like mmos, then why play them?

     

    but hey, if stupid people are willing to pay to not play a game more power to the dumbasses.

    Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
    Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.

  • HerodesHerodes DannenbergPosts: 1,494Member

    This thread reminds me of a discussion about "the more time you invest into a game, the more you should be rewarded."

    Let´s say a poor Nolifer plays 15 hours a day, so he demands to be more rewarded than a guy who plays 4 hours a day. Now the guy with the 4 hours uses a little trick to "play" for 24 hours.

    What do you think? Is it better to play 15 hours actively? Or are both people sick and one of them is just envious (not sure which one)?

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 19,967Member Epic
    Originally posted by Angier2758

    Originally posted by MidniteHowl


    First it goes against just about all MMO games rules for playing the game. That's all I need to say about that part.
     
    Second, it's not the act that is the problem, it's the effect it has on the rest of the gamers that is the problem. Do you know why these people are using botting techniques? I'll tell ya. Most of these people do it because they are gold farmers/sellers. So they have bots automatically do the work for them just so they can try to make a buck by selling the stuff for real money, which in turn affects the in-game economy for the rest of us that actually do the work! Not only that, it's illegal in most games to sell in-game items for real money!
     
    I guess there's times where some regular people want to play the game but don't want to do the repetitve steps to do it and use bots to do the work for them. I wouldnt have a huge problem with this but unfortunately most will not use it for this reason. Besides if people want to eliminate a few steps, most games offer a macro editing tool that helps eliminate some of the button mashing and mouse-clicking steps. So whats wrong with this option? Why would you still need bots? Probably because you are doing something that goes against the Terms of Use agreement policy that we all say we agree to when we first enter a game.
     
     
     



     

    Back when I was in highschool.  You could get busted for using a TI calculator program to do the math for you.  Some could work out equations and some calculus... but it's cheating.  There was a guy in my class who wrote one of these programs.  Someone saw him using it on a test.  The teacher goes "He can use it, he programmed it.  If he understood the lesson well enough to make a program for it he's obviously going to do well on the test regardless."  He showed the teacher beforehand of course.  That's kind of my point..... if it's easy enough that people can make a program to do it.... why not?

    Assuming the program takes knowledge of the game to use... otherwise you end up with an ebay'ish problem.



     

    the issue is that everyone, as much as possible needs to be on the same play field.

    If the devs wanted bots to be used or were ok with it then they would allow them. But they don't. Which means that regardless of what one finds tedious to the game, the "game play" is what it is.

    Every player has access to the same tools in game. their choice per the game design is how much time they want to put into the game.

    by using a bot you are bypassing what the devs want and all of those who are following the rules of the game world.

    If you were to have a discussion with the devs and convince them that their game play was tedious then they would A, change the game world and game play or B, allow bots.

    you are essentially saying "no matter what the devs want, I am going to use a bot so that I don't have to deal with their game play". Instead of saying "well, I don't like their game play therefore I won't play their game". Yet, those players who are abiding by what the devs and game company want are not on the same play field as you.

     edit: another thought is that it makes the world more of a dead world.

    In any mmo, regardless of play style (solo or group) there is a certain amount of player interaction. Questions can be asked, help can be asked or offered, and essentially a community can be made.

    Botters essentially add a "non-player" to the world. The more botters there are the more non-players there are which takes away from building a type of communty.

    My thought has always been to respect one's host. If your host doesn't want you to wear shoes in the house then you don't wear shoes in the house. If your host  desires to sit down and say grace at the table, no matter what one's feeling on religion, you sit down nod your head and respect their wishes...

    The devs and game company are in a way your host. Yes you do pay to play but by paying and agreeing to the tos you are agreeing to their wishes as to how the game is played. So either be part of that or don't play.

  • pojungpojung Central, FLPosts: 810Member

     Quite simply: it infringes on the play experience for those who *aren't* botting. This is from a practical standpoint. From a legal standpoint, it's against any MMO EULA published.

    Doing it because you want to be the 'bad' 'cool guy'? Obviously there are other issues greater than botting in a game is concerned at play. Doing it to beat the mundane feel of farming or the like? Well shoot, log out and enjoy RL for a change. It's saying you're addicted but not owning up to being chained.

    There's no reason *for* it. Anyone attempting to twist it otherwise will more than likely fit the already-described stereotypes anyhow.

    That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
    We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
    So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
    - MMO_Doubter

  • Lathander81Lathander81 Nashville, TNPosts: 611Member

    I'm not sure if the OP is actually serious or playing devil advocate on this.  

    Bots make people angry for several reasons.  I hate them as well.  They destroy the soul of the game.  If you see killng mobs to get xp or questing as work then Maybe you should save your money.  MMOs are about the walking the path, not about the end. = The game is a journey and if you not enjoying that then why play?  Not to mention the damage you do to the feel of the world, the economy, and the expericnce of questing for others.  In short, bot represent selfish greed and there is nothing good about it.

  • mikepatsonmikepatson MonmouthPosts: 45Member

    Bots cause more problems than they're worth. They often cause trouble with the game's economy and stop legit players from getting to resources they need. I despise bots.

    The only good bots are those found in first person shooters.

  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,659Member Uncommon

    Go play Jade Dynasty and bot LEGALLY all you want!

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • Angier2758Angier2758 Mt. Prospect, ILPosts: 1,009Member Uncommon

    One poster probably hit it close to home...

     

    The no life play all day folks are angry that regular folks found a way around the time = reward equation.  The fact is MMO's shouldn't be about who can invest more time... but it is.. it's been a fairly weak crutch in MMO's. 

  • FawarendanFawarendan SPosts: 98Member

    Botting is against the game rules, just as stealing is against the law. "Owww its so boring to grind money to a vacation, why dont I skip it and make some fake money, huh? So I can have fun straight away" - this is the same idea of botting for me. It can seem a little bit too radical, but IT'S the same concept, and I don't care if we are talking about "just a game".

    If the game rules states that people must level by completing dumb quests or killing boring mobs (this kind of game sucks for me btw), and if there's still one guy doing it this way, then shall be it. Some people enjoy doing the "hardwork" and achieving things in a game, boring as fuck for me or for you, there's still people who enjoy the whole experience (specially the first-time MMO'ers I guess). As long as botting is forbided in Aion, all botters should be banned.

    U may think not, but every kind of botter hurts the game, including the "casual" one. Without any work and in a short time botters can unbalance the entire economy and PvP of the game, increase the characters average level, change the community and many more, I guess u don't need me for exemplify. I watched it happens in a few games and it's very sad, trust me.

    There's nothing wrong in wanting to have fun from the beginning, but if you don't enjoy grinding, don't play a game that grinding is needed, for gods sake. Go play mario, street fighter, guild wars or dragon age to go straight to the fun. Or make a game urself, I don't know. Just don't bot, it's bad for legit players and against the rules (and yeah I know how it feels good to wake up two levels higher and with your inventory full of loot).

     

     

    Playing: Starcraft II.
    Played: Tibia, Ragnarok Online, Ultima Online, Guild Wars, World of Warcraft.
    Wanna play: Guild Wars 2, SW:TOR, Final Fantasy XIV, Diablo III.

  • PelagatoPelagato PRPosts: 643Member

    Simply... people bot because they dont enjoy this... thats it... this is the job (mind nubbing, mindless and dull killing) of a machine... and they give it to their rightful worker, a bot!

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