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Discussion / I gave this game a good solid try..........

I gave this game a good solid try..........

masterbbb26masterbbb26 Oakville, ONPosts: 181Member

I leveled a necromancer to  27 adventuring 15 crafting and 15 diplomacy, but i just cant stand this game anymore.

 

A warning to new players life after the noob island can be frustrating to say this least.

 

Grouping has been hell for me. Either you get vetern alts that leave after 15 minutes if the group is not up to there usual lvl 50+ raid organizational standards or you cant find a soul to group with.

 

This game is amazing but the lack of grouping, attitudes of veterns (pretensious to say the least), and horribly small dev team is unfortunantly crippling and i shall cancel my account tonight.

 

looks like its back to GW for the 4th time in a couple of years......god i cant wait for GW 2.

Currently Playing: Fallen Earth
Played and liked: TCOS, Vanguard, Guild Wars, DDO
Played and didn't like: CO, MO, STO, DF, AoC, WAR, WoW, EQ2, EVE, most f2p
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, Secret World

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Comments

  • CryptorCryptor Coquitlam, BCPosts: 523Member Uncommon

    Check out champions online if u r intereted in something other than the usuall fantasy.

     

  • NizurNizur Austin, TXPosts: 1,417Member

    I'm sorry you didn't like the game. At least you gave it a fair shake, leveling to 27.

    Grouping can be difficult, and it's frustrating when so much content is group related.

    Not all vets are asshats. The guild I was in had a lot of friendly, helpful vets.

    Anyway, have fun in GW!

    Current: None
    Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
    Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
    Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN

  • drolkrad666drolkrad666 Omaha, NEPosts: 56Member

    Well see you in a couple months because 99% chance you'll be back. Guild wars are you serious?? talk about insane boredom.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 20,319Member Epic
    Originally posted by masterbbb26


    I leveled a necromancer to  27 adventuring 15 crafting and 15 diplomacy, but i just cant stand this game anymore.
     
    A warning to new players life after the noob island can be frustrating to say this least.
     
    Grouping has been hell for me. Either you get vetern alts that leave after 15 minutes if the group is not up to there usual lvl 50+ raid organizational standards or you cant find a soul to group with.
     
    This game is amazing but the lack of grouping, attitudes of veterns (pretensious to say the least), and horribly small dev team is unfortunantly crippling and i shall cancel my account tonight.
     
    looks like its back to GW for the 4th time in a couple of years......god i cant wait for GW 2.



     

    Well, as I've said before, the people who play this game have to either be:

    soloers

    People in a good established guild.

    OP, what guild did you join? You should contact nooberific and the platinum order as they seem to support new players. If the lack of groups really is your main issue.

    edit: these guilds are on seradon

  • NovaKayneNovaKayne Houston, TXPosts: 743Member

    Sorry you have such a bad time in game. 

     

    I personally have not had this experience and most of the groups I get into are not so anal in playing.  I also have not had too much trouble getting into groups except on Monday -Wed.  After that groups come along quite frequently.  I found a small guild to get involved with and we group when we can.

     

    Good luck in other games, sorry this one did not work out for ya.

    Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.

  • boojiboyboojiboy Hudson, WIPosts: 1,536Member Uncommon

    Sorry grouping didn't work out for you.  Which server were you on?  If Seradon, there are a couple huge and noob friendly guilds as mentioned above. 

  • masterbbb26masterbbb26OP Oakville, ONPosts: 181Member

    i was on Seradon in the guild Karma's reprisal..........i also play very wierd hours due to my work schedule but i never had problem finding groups in WoW or GW at the times that i play. I'd like to play something new but due to low populations i might as well play single player games as i can never find a group.

    Currently Playing: Fallen Earth
    Played and liked: TCOS, Vanguard, Guild Wars, DDO
    Played and didn't like: CO, MO, STO, DF, AoC, WAR, WoW, EQ2, EVE, most f2p
    Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, Secret World

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 20,319Member Epic
    Originally posted by masterbbb26


    i was on Seradon in the guild Karma's reprisal..........i also play very wierd hours due to my work schedule but i never had problem finding groups in WoW or GW at the times that i play. I'd like to play something new but due to low populations i might as well play single player games as i can never find a group.



     

    Well, as I said, solers or people in a solid group.

    Vanguard is not really one for pick up groups. Oh sure, people get into pick up groups and I've turned down several as they were always at odd times if the traveling takes up the last remnants of your evening's time then there is no point in taking the group.

    Of course you could look into the other guilds I mentioned or even some of the euro groups. I noted that one of the servers seemed high in the wee hours and thought that that was because of euro players

  • XeonsoldierXeonsoldier Atlanta, GAPosts: 190Member

    That's what is a downside to VG in terms of population (outside of the low numbers itself). The game is not a great supporter of strangers. What I mean by this is in order to get the full benjamin out of the game, you need either A - a guild, or B - a close group of friends. If you happen to be that guy who plays during off hours due to your job or real life constraints and you know nobody, then you are just out of luck. The game has its appeal but its also limited flexibility. If you don't play during the primetime of west - east coast then you're better off on the euro server. But *shrugs*, that's not the player's fault right? While in game, I was with a guild from the very beginning so I personally never went through those problems but you can only dread for those players who look to play the game but really don't want to join a guild and want to play as mercenaries.

    I look back during my EQ days, if you were guilded or not, stranger or not, you was going to get groups. Granted I played a necro, but if it was 9am, 3pm, or 11pm, grouping was always there.

  • RekindleRekindle Moncton, NBPosts: 1,206Member Uncommon

    A lot of the content is definately geared towards groups.  It can be frustrating and difficult to find groups.  I wish they would dumb down a couple dungeons so that not all dungeons have to be full group to explore.

    When I played EQ i would often end up in a group after delving into a dungeon by myself.....not stupid 3dot/ 4dot stuff....just mobs i could fight or not.

     

    This is such a great game but SOe is hanging it out to rot.....if they arent gonna market it i just wish they would open up more content to smaller groups.

     

    However, if you're reading this, in all fairness, there is a lot of content availble for the solo player too, its just the really neato places often require a group and some dedication of time.

  • DavrynDavryn Grande Prairie, ABPosts: 39Member

    I personally think Vanguard has made huge progress since launch, which is something to say because the dev team, as I understand, was really stripped down when VG tanked just after launch. I love the game--it runs well for me, and its a lot of fun. I like the combat, I enjoy the quests, and the huge seamless world is just flat out amazing. It's my sandbox MMOG prayers answered (even though it wasn't when I first played it in beta and at launch).

    I think it's sad that there aren't enough players to group with. But bitching about it doesn't really help the situation. Instead, you should probably say, "Hey, this is an awesome game and it'd be great if we could get the population up. Give it a second look." I mean, wouldn't that better fit the purpose of what you're posting? You say that you really like the game, but can't handle the low population. So, don't quit...spread a little word of mouth, instead. Maybe get on a forum and try to hook up with a perma group or something. I met some people on the TTH forums that I hang out with and the game is good fun. Hell, except for end game there's a LOT you can tackle solo or duo. Give it a shot.

  • TruethTrueth Schofield Barracks, HIPosts: 287Member

    You don't understand much, Darvyn. The team didn't get stripped down until about 6 months ago. Prior to that they had enough to get things done. Sadly though, they were led by the slob Silius who really ravaged the game. He ravaged it so much that the population is now what it is -- Terrible.

     

    It really doesn't do much good to try and pretend this game is doing fine, or that it's better and try and lure people in so you can have a group. Instead we should just say "Hey this is on life support, you'll probably play alone, but if you're ok with that then cool".

  • XeonsoldierXeonsoldier Atlanta, GAPosts: 190Member
    Originally posted by Davryn


    I personally think Vanguard has made huge progress since launch, which is something to say because the dev team, as I understand, was really stripped down when VG tanked just after launch. I love the game--it runs well for me, and its a lot of fun. I like the combat, I enjoy the quests, and the huge seamless world is just flat out amazing. It's my sandbox MMOG prayers answered (even though it wasn't when I first played it in beta and at launch).
    I think it's sad that there aren't enough players to group with. But bitching about it doesn't really help the situation. Instead, you should probably say, "Hey, this is an awesome game and it'd be great if we could get the population up. Give it a second look." I mean, wouldn't that better fit the purpose of what you're posting? You say that you really like the game, but can't handle the low population. So, don't quit...spread a little word of mouth, instead. Maybe get on a forum and try to hook up with a perma group or something. I met some people on the TTH forums that I hang out with and the game is good fun. Hell, except for end game there's a LOT you can tackle solo or duo. Give it a shot.



     

    People aren't bitching per say. Players shouldnt' feel inclined to "spread the word" or anything just to get a group. The simple fact is, players get groups in other games without having to "spread the word" or do any extra advertising or marketing for the game. My question, is why do players have to work harder in VG compared to other games that did their homework? Again, players aren't bitching, they are just adding notes that the population is affecting gameplay.

  • boojiboyboojiboy Hudson, WIPosts: 1,536Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by masterbbb26


    i was on Seradon in the guild Karma's reprisal..........i also play very wierd hours due to my work schedule but i never had problem finding groups in WoW or GW at the times that i play. I'd like to play something new but due to low populations i might as well play single player games as i can never find a group.



     

    At your level, the population is very spread out because there are so many dungeons and places to explore.  Also, you add in your playtime I can see what grouping is difficult.  As suggested above, a guild (maybe a Euro guild) with playtimes similar to yours would help a lot.  Hooking up with a group of friends and planning out your adventures in advance can ensure a good stable grouping experience. 

  • shakermaker0shakermaker0 SheffieldPosts: 194Member Uncommon

    I think the game is good but with certain negative elements. Check out my review, thatmmoguy

  • masterbbb26masterbbb26OP Oakville, ONPosts: 181Member

    Thanks guys

    ........i think i am going to put my tail between my legs and stick with this game.........my GW guild ceases to exist and it was the only thing keeping me coming back. So i am going to take your guys advice and look for a EU guild that is new player friendly.

     

    This game is perfect for me.......high fantasy/pve oreinted/sandbox............i will just suck it up and take the bad with the good.

     

     

    Currently Playing: Fallen Earth
    Played and liked: TCOS, Vanguard, Guild Wars, DDO
    Played and didn't like: CO, MO, STO, DF, AoC, WAR, WoW, EQ2, EVE, most f2p
    Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, Secret World

  • aleosaleos na, INPosts: 1,892Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by masterbbb26


    I leveled a necromancer to  27 adventuring 15 crafting and 15 diplomacy, but i just cant stand this game anymore.
     
    A warning to new players life after the noob island can be frustrating to say this least.
     
    Grouping has been hell for me. Either you get vetern alts that leave after 15 minutes if the group is not up to there usual lvl 50+ raid organizational standards or you cant find a soul to group with.
     
    This game is amazing but the lack of grouping, attitudes of veterns (pretensious to say the least), and horribly small dev team is unfortunantly crippling and i shall cancel my account tonight.
     
    looks like its back to GW for the 4th time in a couple of years......god i cant wait for GW 2.



     

    There goes soloing ruining games all over again.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 20,319Member Epic
    Originally posted by aleos

    Originally posted by masterbbb26


    I leveled a necromancer to  27 adventuring 15 crafting and 15 diplomacy, but i just cant stand this game anymore.
     
    A warning to new players life after the noob island can be frustrating to say this least.
     
    Grouping has been hell for me. Either you get vetern alts that leave after 15 minutes if the group is not up to there usual lvl 50+ raid organizational standards or you cant find a soul to group with.
     
    This game is amazing but the lack of grouping, attitudes of veterns (pretensious to say the least), and horribly small dev team is unfortunantly crippling and i shall cancel my account tonight.
     
    looks like its back to GW for the 4th time in a couple of years......god i cant wait for GW 2.



     

    There goes soloing ruining games all over again.



     

    there are plenty of people who group in this game. I've turned down several.

    Yes, I am a soloer. One of the reasons why this game appeals to me. However there are guilds that support new players.

    If you want to turn this thread into a grouping vs soloing thread I'm sure there are several around you can participate in. However, because I can solo in this game (and with some difficulty in harder areas) Vanguard has one more sub, one more person contributing.

    Because the thing is, the solo players aren't dependent on groups to play this game. The players who require groups to make a game fun are. And as you've seen, in some cases that means one less person. If people don't play the game then there are less groups, if there are less groups then grouping players don't play. And it's a downward spiral.

    Or, players who are like me who mostly solo will make the game feel less a ghost town and will occassionaly group. Less of a ghost town means that more players might try the game. More players trying the game means more potential groups. etc.

     

  • FibsdkFibsdk Buda, TXPosts: 1,112Member
    Originally posted by Xeonsoldier

    Originally posted by Davryn


    I personally think Vanguard has made huge progress since launch, which is something to say because the dev team, as I understand, was really stripped down when VG tanked just after launch. I love the game--it runs well for me, and its a lot of fun. I like the combat, I enjoy the quests, and the huge seamless world is just flat out amazing. It's my sandbox MMOG prayers answered (even though it wasn't when I first played it in beta and at launch).
    I think it's sad that there aren't enough players to group with. But bitching about it doesn't really help the situation. Instead, you should probably say, "Hey, this is an awesome game and it'd be great if we could get the population up. Give it a second look." I mean, wouldn't that better fit the purpose of what you're posting? You say that you really like the game, but can't handle the low population. So, don't quit...spread a little word of mouth, instead. Maybe get on a forum and try to hook up with a perma group or something. I met some people on the TTH forums that I hang out with and the game is good fun. Hell, except for end game there's a LOT you can tackle solo or duo. Give it a shot.



     

    People aren't bitching per say. Players shouldnt' feel inclined to "spread the word" or anything just to get a group. The simple fact is, players get groups in other games without having to "spread the word" or do any extra advertising or marketing for the game. My question, is why do players have to work harder in VG compared to other games that did their homework? Again, players aren't bitching, they are just adding notes that the population is affecting gameplay.

     

    Other games are doing better than VG is. That's the obvious answer to why you have to work harder to get groups. You can either do one of three things 1. Bitch about the population numbers and lack of groups 2. Try and do what you can to get friends or whomever back into the game to do your part in trying to change things, instead of bitching about it 3. Move on and play something else.

     

    It is what it is. If you love the game then spreading the word should be in that persons best interest. If you are looking for a full populated game with groups going 24/7 then VG will never be for you as it stands now. As other has said you need a good guild with people around your own level.

     

    I just started playing a month ago again, starting all over on IoD. I got into nooberific and had some fun. Then switched guilds when grouping in the guild became scarse..found a nice spot in Safe Haven where i had a lot of people my level to group with. Got CiS, Hunters League  and Darguns Tomb done and groups now working on Greystone ...Grouping has not been an issue for me and i knew NOBODY when i started again. I dare even say i have grouped more in VG this last month than i did during my year and a half in WoW and having a lot more fun too.

     

    You have to make an effort yourself to try and find a good guild and people to play with. It won't come to you automatically just by using general channel..well for me it did :p.

    If you are in a guild that doesn't play your hours, too anal about your playstyle, heavy crafting and not enough adventuring, nobody in your range...find another guild. it took me two tries. I would gladly have given it 5 more until i found the perfect one. The point is you have to make up your mind if it's worth putting in the effort to get some fun out of the game or you just want it coming to you on a silver platter. You have to work a bit harder in VG for it. It's really up to the individual if the game is worth putting in the effort

     

    The game is far from dead yet. There are several things in the works for VG in terms of new dungeons and revamping of old content that isn't being used currently and a new alternate advancement points system. This is not even mentioning i have seen a steady stream of new players over the last month entering the game and searching for and forming groups for the 20-30 content..something i hear you didn't see 8 or 9 months ago.

     

    If you play the game try being part of a solution instead of part of the problem. One way you can do that is convince old friends to come back or do what you can in the game to make new players feel welcome. Or just move on

  • ronan32ronan32 limerickPosts: 1,418Member

    I played vanguard on release day and though it was a great concept for an mmo, but it was buggy and very unpolished.

    I've been back when they gave out the free play time to vets but i never syayed long. I just cant commit to a game that has so little resources going towards improving the game. Then i saw this video 

       and it turned me off ever trying vanguard again, He is basically saying vanguard is dead in the water.

    I wont pay a subscribtion to a game thats funding development for new Soe titles.

  • morpinmorpin wilmington, MIPosts: 360Member
    Originally posted by ronan32


    I played vanguard on release day and though it was a great concept for an mmo, but it was buggy and very unpolished.
    I've been back when they gave out the free play time to vets but i never syayed long. I just cant commit to a game that has so little resources going towards improving the game. Then i saw this video 
       and it turned me off ever trying vanguard again, He is basically saying vanguard is dead in the water.
    I wont pay a subscribtion to a game thats funding development for new Soe titles.



     

    I went and listened to the YouTube  link you included.   

    Silius made two mentions of resources. In the first minute or so when he was talking about AA's, he said that the development was going to be somewhat slowed by the resources on the team.  Later on when discussing a re-launch and talking about how SOE is a business and they allot resources based on what product is making money, unfortuantely Vanguard is not making as much money as say a game like Free Realms.   He did mention that SOE did spend money for banner ads when IOD was released.

    I think your stament that "He (Silius) is bascially saying vangaurd is dead in the water" is a poor interpretation of the interview.

    None of this is really new news.  Yes the team would like more resources, but right now its not going to happen.  In fact SOE just announced a 5% cut in all their resources. 

    http://www.massively.com/2009/07/17/breaking-news-sony-online-entertainment-lays-off-41-full-time-w/

    If you play games based on the resources, then I would suggest you try out Free Realms

     

     

    image

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 20,319Member Epic
    Originally posted by Fibsdk


     
    I just started playing a month ago again, starting all over on IoD. I got into nooberific and had some fun. Then switched guilds when grouping in the guild became scarse..found a nice spot in Safe Haven where i had a lot of people my level to group with. Got CiS, Hunters League  and Darguns Tomb done and groups now working on Greystone ...Grouping has not been an issue for me and i knew NOBODY when i started again. I dare even say i have grouped more in VG this last month than i did during my year and a half in WoW and having a lot more fun too.
     
    You have to make an effort yourself to try and find a good guild and people to play with. It won't come to you automatically just by using general channel..well for me it did :p.



     

    You see, right here we have a winner.

    It has always boggled my mind that people aren't willing to make the effort. And this is not just talking about Vanguard. Same thing with Lineage 2. People would play it for a short time and complain that they couldn't get pick up groups.

    Well "duh" the whole game is about allies and clans. And being careful not to party with spies who will give away your location, etc.

    so then one asks them "well what clan did you join". their response? I didn't. Or, I joined one but there was no one on. Well, the obvious answer is to find another. To actually go out and seek people of like mind.

    It just seems to me that people want everything handed to them. sometimes we have to make the effort in order to get what we want. Not just Vanguard, any game. Or life for that matter.

  • XeonsoldierXeonsoldier Atlanta, GAPosts: 190Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Originally posted by Fibsdk


     
    I just started playing a month ago again, starting all over on IoD. I got into nooberific and had some fun. Then switched guilds when grouping in the guild became scarse..found a nice spot in Safe Haven where i had a lot of people my level to group with. Got CiS, Hunters League  and Darguns Tomb done and groups now working on Greystone ...Grouping has not been an issue for me and i knew NOBODY when i started again. I dare even say i have grouped more in VG this last month than i did during my year and a half in WoW and having a lot more fun too.
     
    You have to make an effort yourself to try and find a good guild and people to play with. It won't come to you automatically just by using general channel..well for me it did :p.



     

    You see, right here we have a winner.

    It has always boggled my mind that people aren't willing to make the effort. And this is not just talking about Vanguard. Same thing with Lineage 2. People would play it for a short time and complain that they couldn't get pick up groups.

    Well "duh" the whole game is about allies and clans. And being careful not to party with spies who will give away your location, etc.

    so then one asks them "well what clan did you join". their response? I didn't. Or, I joined one but there was no one on. Well, the obvious answer is to find another. To actually go out and seek people of like mind.

    It just seems to me that people want everything handed to them. sometimes we have to make the effort in order to get what we want. Not just Vanguard, any game. Or life for that matter.



     

    Its not about having things being handed. I don't believe players go into games thinking they will find groups in seconds. There are players/classes that are just unfortunate enough to not be wanted. I can't begin to count how many times I had to turn down players because their class is simple...well crap for certain ideal groups.

    Put it like this, if droves of players have left , there's a message. I'm not saying that they are right or wrong, but its definately worth a look into. But then again, this isn't a new issue. Just don't expect it to go away anytime soon. VG from now until Christmas will probably take a slight hit to Aion but I don't see the population improving anytime soon.

  • XeonsoldierXeonsoldier Atlanta, GAPosts: 190Member
    Originally posted by Fibsdk

    Originally posted by Xeonsoldier

    Originally posted by Davryn


    I personally think Vanguard has made huge progress since launch, which is something to say because the dev team, as I understand, was really stripped down when VG tanked just after launch. I love the game--it runs well for me, and its a lot of fun. I like the combat, I enjoy the quests, and the huge seamless world is just flat out amazing. It's my sandbox MMOG prayers answered (even though it wasn't when I first played it in beta and at launch).
    I think it's sad that there aren't enough players to group with. But bitching about it doesn't really help the situation. Instead, you should probably say, "Hey, this is an awesome game and it'd be great if we could get the population up. Give it a second look." I mean, wouldn't that better fit the purpose of what you're posting? You say that you really like the game, but can't handle the low population. So, don't quit...spread a little word of mouth, instead. Maybe get on a forum and try to hook up with a perma group or something. I met some people on the TTH forums that I hang out with and the game is good fun. Hell, except for end game there's a LOT you can tackle solo or duo. Give it a shot.



     

    People aren't bitching per say. Players shouldnt' feel inclined to "spread the word" or anything just to get a group. The simple fact is, players get groups in other games without having to "spread the word" or do any extra advertising or marketing for the game. My question, is why do players have to work harder in VG compared to other games that did their homework? Again, players aren't bitching, they are just adding notes that the population is affecting gameplay.

     

    Other games are doing better than VG is. That's the obvious answer to why you have to work harder to get groups. You can either do one of three things 1. Bitch about the population numbers and lack of groups 2. Try and do what you can to get friends or whomever back into the game to do your part in trying to change things, instead of bitching about it 3. Move on and play something else.

     

    It is what it is. If you love the game then spreading the word should be in that persons best interest. If you are looking for a full populated game with groups going 24/7 then VG will never be for you as it stands now. As other has said you need a good guild with people around your own level.

     

    I just started playing a month ago again, starting all over on IoD. I got into nooberific and had some fun. Then switched guilds when grouping in the guild became scarse..found a nice spot in Safe Haven where i had a lot of people my level to group with. Got CiS, Hunters League  and Darguns Tomb done and groups now working on Greystone ...Grouping has not been an issue for me and i knew NOBODY when i started again. I dare even say i have grouped more in VG this last month than i did during my year and a half in WoW and having a lot more fun too.

     

    You have to make an effort yourself to try and find a good guild and people to play with. It won't come to you automatically just by using general channel..well for me it did :p.

    If you are in a guild that doesn't play your hours, too anal about your playstyle, heavy crafting and not enough adventuring, nobody in your range...find another guild. it took me two tries. I would gladly have given it 5 more until i found the perfect one. The point is you have to make up your mind if it's worth putting in the effort to get some fun out of the game or you just want it coming to you on a silver platter. You have to work a bit harder in VG for it. It's really up to the individual if the game is worth putting in the effort

     

    The game is far from dead yet. There are several things in the works for VG in terms of new dungeons and revamping of old content that isn't being used currently and a new alternate advancement points system. This is not even mentioning i have seen a steady stream of new players over the last month entering the game and searching for and forming groups for the 20-30 content..something i hear you didn't see 8 or 9 months ago.

     

    If you play the game try being part of a solution instead of part of the problem. One way you can do that is convince old friends to come back or do what you can in the game to make new players feel welcome. Or just move on



     

    Players come to VG expecting a top tier mmo but only to be disappointed that its a 3rd tier mmo. Because folks who spread the word don't give the 100% truth behind the game. The game is far from dead, maybe. But its far from doing well also.

  • sazabisazabi VilniusPosts: 389Member

    gw ftw. one of the best group based games ever made.

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