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Which is harder, grouping in an MMORPG, or playing Solo? (for leveling or skilling up, not raiding,
Ihmotepp
Member Posts: 14,495
Simple question. Which is harder? Grouping in an MMORPG or playing Solo?
For some clarification, we are talking about games in existence today, NOT some imaginiary game not yet released.
Examples would include UO, AC, EQ, DAoC, WoW, Lotro, AoC, CoH, and other popular P2P mmorpgs (sorry RMT players this doesn't apply to you) that have managed to stick around for over a year.
I think this may be the crux of the biscuit, why I can't understand solo players, and they can't understand my position. I think solo players actually think what they are doing, playing the game solo, is HARDER than getting a group together and maintaining it.
If that's the case, then their arguments suddenly make sense. I'm doing something HARDER than what you are doing, so I want more rewards than you. I should make xp just as fast or faster, and get just as good loot or BETTER, because I"m doing the hard thing, and soloing the game!
My position is that grouping is 10x harder than playing solo. YOu have to travel to meet each other, if you have an existing group you have to arrange meeting times, you have to wait on bio breaks, players going link dead, negotiate where to go, what to do, split loot, AND you have to work as a team. It's not just important what I am doing, I also have to pay attention to what you are diong and the rest of the group. You also have to adjust what you do, depending on the size of the group. If we get one more party member, we can go there, if we lose one we can't stay here, etc. The solo player never worries about that, just goes where they can solo, and that never changes.
The hard part is in managing the group. I think solo players are approaching the discussion as if there was an instant "group" button, you push that, and then mow through mobs, but grouping in reality doesn't work like that.
This may be the sticking point. You'll never convince me that playing solo is easier than grouping, and if I'll never convince you that grouping is harder than playing solo, there's no real common ground for discussion, since we are approaching the topic with two completely opposite views of the facts.
Comments
The best leveling occurs when you do a mixture of both. However, in the games I've played I find that mainly soloing for the first half of the levels and mainly grouping for the second half works best.
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
Yes, but the question is not what works best, but which is easier?
if you are fighting solo and hit the wrong skill often you will end up dead, if you do that in a group it will usualy just take a few seconds longer to kill whatever you are killing. imo soloing is harder because there is more pressure on the individual then on an individual in a group. for example in a group you usualy do your roll (dps, tank ect.) so you dont have to worry about getting mobbed if your a dps or running out of hp if you have a decent healer.
the trick to making a good mmo imo is to seperate group and solo play but have then both equal dificulty and give then both unique rewards. maybe you get the best equips from a group running a dungeon, but you can aquire a special skill by doing a solo quest chain. they should be seperated in a way that the encounters are geared twords group or solo individualy, so they both are just hard enough.
What about getting a group together and maintaining it, on top of the actual mechanics of combat? Do you just ignore those factors when making your opinion?
Wow, yet another thread about solo vs group play... just what this forum needs. WHO CARES!
I will take that to mean your opinion is they are both equal.
The answer to this is game dependant.
In a game built for solo play, soloing is going to be easier than grouping.
In a game built for group play, soloing is going to be much more challenging.
Everquest and DDO are good examples of games built for group play. Soloing in either game was challenging, and not viable at all for some classes. City of Heroes went the opposite direction, the vast majority of the content is available for solo play and at its default settings is very easy to beat without assistance.
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I can tell you for a soloer's standpoint to me, that grouping is harder than solo. While im lvling i tend to solo alot of questing zones until i get all my group and instance quests. From than on im stuck spamming lfg for certain group quests or instances for hours, which to me is no fun at all, because by the time i find a group im probably out of the zone questing in a new zone out lvling the group stuff. Basically when i hit group content my questing and lvling comes to a dead stop, were as soloing i can continue at my own pace without worrying about dead time because of someone else.
When i do manage to get into a group there is no guarantee that the group is going to hold together till the end of the quests or till the instance is complete. One or two wipes and people start to leave and this is really true when it comes to healers, if your healer leaves than the group pretty much falls apart. Or you get people that are to lazy to start heading to the questing zones or instance, waiting for one or 2 people to get there so they can be summoned. Or you get people that have constant lag or disconnect issues farther holding up the group. And than there's the loot issue, if you are going for a piece of loot that you have been trying to get for awhile 9 times out of 10 there is someone else there for that same piece of loot.
So basically i find soloing to be alot easier for me in terms of time, less headaches, being able to get quest drops without waiting for 2-5 other people to get theres to, no having to stress over people not knowing what to do in an instance or how to play their class. I have no probably with grouping if the group can be put together in a timely manner and people are willing to stay until every quests or the whole instance is complete. The whole solo vs grouping arguement is pointless if you dont know why either side refuse to do the other. And it has nothing to do with not being social or wanting a srpg in an mmo that is far from it.
Me when i log in i want to play the game not spam lfg for hours on end and still end up with no group, and than have to log off without having gotten anything done. Or getting a group after about 2 to 3hrs only to have it fall apart a few min later, and all this comes for personal experience. So thats why i find soloing to be easier and my most preferred style of play, even tho i still have to group at max lvl to take on the harder quests. which sometimes never gets completed due to the fact that i have to spam lfg for hours with no success
Soloing content is harder then doing content in a group. Dealing with the drama that people bring to a group is not content. This is why a lot of people like to solo. Getting away from dealing with people drama is why people play games.
What about getting a group together and maintaining it, on top of the actual mechanics of combat? Do you just ignore those factors when making your opinion?
that really depends on the game your playing. i havent had that problem much, but i have heard that wow is notorious for idiots making it hard to do anything. but this can be easily avoided by getting a group of people who know what they are doing, and as long as you have a leader that people listen to it shouldnt be a problem
If a game is built properly... The content for "play type" will all be equally a challenge.
There should be content that is based on your personal ability. Which means that even "solo content" may not be able to be done by everyone alone. Some people may have to group for "solo content".
That isn't something that should be because you are a certain class. It should be based on your ability to play the game.
Beyond that... there should always be content that is beyond your personal ability. Which is where bringing in more people comes into play. I do believe that content designed for this purpose should offer greater reward than "solo content".
Altho I am not a big fan of the level, class/uber loot design. So my idea of "greater reward" is probably not what most would have in mind.
It also has nothing to do with a solo vs. group arguement. It has to do with the fact most MMO's today are not designed very well or are designed a certain way.
Every game play experience should feel like a challenge and when you complete it.. it should feel rewarding.
I will take that to mean your opinion is they are both equal.
My opinion is that this has been argued to death. Groupers think their style is best, solo'rs thinks theirs is best, aand people like myself who prefer balanced gameplay(not gear - just allowing both styles) are pretty much sick of this endless argument. That is my opinion. This thread is here-by "no-watched".
Same answer as in all the other solo-vs-group threads.
The more group members you have, the more you can compensate for the vulnerabilities of individual classes, the less consequential the actions of a single player are, and the simpler the gameplay becomes when each player is reduced to a "role".
Getting a group together isn't difficult, it just requires a (very) basic level of organisation.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I will take that to mean your opinion is they are both equal.
My opinion is that this has been argued to death. Groupers think their style is best, solo'rs thinks theirs is best, aand people like myself who prefer balanced gameplay(not gear - just allowing both styles) are pretty much sick of this endless argument. That is my opinion. This thread is here-by "no-watched".
You didn't have to read or post in it you know. Threads exist for the benefit of people who want to weigh in on the topic at hand, and this thread clearly focused on one aspect of a much larger solo vs group debate. Besides, who wants to bash Darkfall one more time?
From a gameplay perspective, I find both styles equally difficult. If I push one wrong button while soloing, I end up dead. If I fail to heal the MT he dies, and I die shortly afterwards. (Only DPS'ers can typically get away with screwing up, tanks, healers and CC must perform or group dies)
But the social mechanics of grouping, from organization, leadership, composition, and dealing with personalities all make grouping as an activity much more difficult than any solo effort, and therefore it justfies much greater rewards.
(and please, don't confuse grouping with raiding, they aren't the same to me)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Groups tend to be more difficult, simply because of the personal dynamics(at the very least). PUG's tend to be accidents, or horrors looking for a place and time to happen. ^^ Over, and over again...<shudder> Not to mention I simply lack the time and tolerance to deal with sorting all of that out on a daily basis. That is why I seldom stay in games that require grouping.
If the title of this thread had been "Which is more annoying?", then I'd agree with you.
Having to meet people: Do you actually think it's difficult, or just annoying and time-consuming?
Having to wait for/replace people who dc: Difficult, or just annoying and time-consuming?
Having to split/decide who gets what loot: difficult, or just annoying and time-consuming?
See my point here? None of the things you mentioned are in the least little bit difficult.
Lots of people like some level of difficulty in their games. Not nearly as many have the patience for annoying and time-consuming activities in a game they are paying for.
Now, have you ever played a single-player game with challenging content? I guarantee those exist. Now, imagine that kind of content put in an MMO. Voila, we have challenging solo content in an MMO. Yes, it can be done.
If whatever game your playing makes it difficult to find and maintain a group, then thats the devs fault for making a flawed system.
Now is it easier to group solo content than it is to solo it? YES. Ill use COH as an example, in coh you have the unique option of pretty mutch choosing your missions difficulty by changing your titles. So if I go and pick the lowest tittle i end up with easy missions. These easy mode missions are just that easy. What if I being DPS would bring in a tank and a healer? The mission would of just gotten 3 times easier, hell we prob could of aggroed the entire instance.
Lets say i go the opposite approach and pick the hardest mission level. I go in and try to solo that facing a lot of people, usually 2-4 in a pull and there all 3 or 4 levels above me plus some of them r lieutenants, which play an additional level above me. Pretty mutch its going to be dam near impossible to solo if it even could be.
Another example would be AOC, in AOC they have little group icons next to the quests in your quest log if its a group quest. I have soloed these quests if there green to me which would be just barly a challenge for a solo quest, whereas if I had a qroup i could of done it 3 levels earlier than I did and im pretty shure gotten more xp since the quest was harder for my level.
Now all that being said I usually play solo. Since the entire endgame of any mmo that i have tried and heard people talk about is group conent I think that the soloers are entitled to solo content in the part of the game that most people would view as unimportant, 'cause we all know the game either doesnt start or completely changes at max level.
It's "More Difficult" to group. That's because there are more variables to something going wrong. It's also more fun because it has this random factor, as opposed to tapping the same 3 keys over and over on one mob at a time.
youtube.com/gcidogmeat
I'll give you a few reasons why soloers win this battle in your little war:
Until developers use a system that scales HPs and rewards of a given encounter to how many players are part of it, then soloers will always come out as taking the hard road (since higher level mobs start to get insane amounts of HPs and a ungodly boost in dps that far outweighs what soloers can match.). Simple logic would tell you that there is safety in numbers. It will and has always been easier to kill 1 than 1+.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
'Easier' and 'harder' are pretty lousy words to use. Fact of the matter is that the worse player you are, the harder the content is. Similarly bad groups have to work harder at beating a fight then good groups. Does that mean that bad players should get better rewards than good players because the fight was 'harder' for them?
The problems you mention with travel time, bio break, loot issue, etc to me are the same issue. The better your group is, the less of a problem this becomes. Heck, in really good groups that stuff is so trivial that it can take less time then when the individual players start a solo playing session.
Fact is that there are many accomplishments in the game that are pretty much solo activities that only a few really dedicated players will do that give out trivial rewards while group content that good players consider to be trivial gives solid reward that open up new content.
In the end in a MMORPG we are rewarded for RESULTS and not how hard the fight was actually for the players or how long it took you to straighten out the logistics. How 'hard' or 'easy' the fight was only determines the timeline for getting the rewards. Better players get rewarded by getting the reward faster while bad players take a while to get the reward if they can complete the challenge in the first place.
I am all for rewarding good group play but see little reason to give preferance to bad to average groupers over good solo players.
It depends on the MMO.
I found oldschool EQ very hard to solo. Compared to my experiences with WoW, I'd say soloing in EQ was harder than grouping or even raiding is in WoW.
Because of the extreme downtime in EQ (5+ minutes to regain mana), I moved to DAOC (pre-TOA) which was fairly doable in terms of soloing, but was much less efficient than grouping. It was a slow but steady grind.
Soloing in pre-CU SWG was so easy thanks to overpowered buffs that a lot of us were begging to be nerfed because it was just retarded. Whenever I saw a patrol of some 20 stormtroopers, I'd just laugh and jump at them, setting up a spam queue of the same attack ability being repeated, then go grab a snack. The real challenge for me was in crafting and that actually took a lot of interacting and coordination with other people in a non-grouping kinda way. I would say that was harder than raiding in WoW.
EQ2... well... I've only grouped in that game once.... would you believe it? So I can't really tell, but soloing was a bit frustrating shortly after release and quite enjoyable these days. I'm guessing that grouping in EQ2 is similar in difficulty to WoW.
Soloing in VG was a bit tougher than soloing in WoW/EQ2, but not too hard if I limited myself to safe mobs/areas. Finding challenging mobs and getting away with soloing them was a blast though. Grouping was a surprisingly pleasant experience as well (when things weren't bugged to hell). Not as hard as soloing, interestingly enough, but still fun due to the group/class dynamics in the game. If it wasn't for the fact that finding groups in VG is somewhat difficult except at max. level due to the low population now, I would consider rejoining just for that experience.
When it comes to WoW, I would say that soloing is easier but only because it's so darn difficult to find a group of people that you can actually enjoy the game with. Communication skills, ability to understand and general respect for other people seems almost completely absent in WoW at times. As a result, I prefer to solo in WoW even though it means giving up on so much of the game and the rewards that go along with it. Grouping in WoW is not challenging to me, it is outright frustrating most of the time. The one time that I did manage to find a guild of relatively cool people (which then imploded due to guild drama caused by the not so cool people) whom I did some raiding with, it turned out to be a somewhat simple but time consuming affair. Logistics was the only thing that made it "hard", the rest was almost as easy as following a recipe while listening to the TV chef going through it.
LOTRO feels similar to WoW, so I'm not gonna say much about that. Never tried raiding in LOTRO though.
EVE is a mixed bag. PvE is fairly easy to solo, especially if you run multiple accounts. Due to the relatively low system requirements and ease of which you can control multiple accounts, it's possible to do things that are impossible or just impractical in pure solo mode. PvP on the other hand, is mostly off limits since blobs rule the cosmos in EVE. I suppose you could consider fleet warfare the EVE equivalent to raiding. I know, it's a very rough simplification.
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Interesting content yes, challenging content? No. Annoying and time consuming? Sure, you can make an RPG annoying and time consuming. But challenging? How?
I"ve played some puzzle games, action games, and FPS games that were very challenging, to the point where I couldn't beat them in fact.
Can you ever lose an RPG? If a win is pre-determined, how is that challenging exactly? Was there ever a point when I didn't think I'd make it through KOTOR? No, not really.
I walk up to the Mob, it beats me. I go skill up, level up, or gear up beating lower skillled or leveled mobs, then come back and beat this mob, rinse repeat till the game is over.
Do I find that challenging? Not really. It can be fun if the story line is good, if the art work is good, if the game mechanics are fun, etc., but challenging? No, I can't think of a single player game like that unless it involved puzzles. Those can be so challenging I can't solve them without a walkthrough.
But as far as I know, most MMORPGs don't have puzzles, unless you're talking about Puzzle Pirates. Not that I want Puzzles, they are to challenging for me.
IMO you can't just say "one is harder than the other", it depends on the game and on the play style. Sometimes for casual players that just wan't to level at their own pace it's easier to solo, while those that wan't to level up quickly are better off with finding a group and running through the quests.
If we talk about content type - Grouping content is usually harder, because it not only needs individual skill, but also coordination of the group and some tactics.
Just because nobody has done it doesn't mean that it can't be done. You're starting to sound an awful lot like the people back in the day saying that it was impossible to break the sound barrier. Could it be that single player RPGs lack challenge because the developers feel that telling a story and having you progress through it is more important than making it near impossible to get past the first guard you meet in the game?
Anyway, I seem to remember Bard's Tale and Dungeon Master as being quite the challenge. Maps had to be made all by hand and you had no quest logs to help you remember. Very similar to EQ in the beginning. Just figuring out what you were supposed to do and find your way there was quite an accomplishment. There was also no google available to look up the answers. The best you could hope for was a cheat code or a walkthrough in a magazine. I got raped by the monsters in Dungeon Master more times than I can remember. I even resorted to throwing the bones and gear of my dead partymembers at the monsters while trying to kite them. I remember analyzing my save games in Bard's Tale with a hex editor and writing a program to edit them just so that I could complete it. Very good times indeed.
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Just because nobody has done it doesn't mean that it can't be done. You're starting to sound an awful lot like the people back in the day saying that it was impossible to break the sound barrier. Could it be that single player RPGs lack challenge because the developers feel that telling a story and having you progress through it is more important than making it near impossible to get past the first guard you meet in the game?
Anyway, I seem to remember Bard's Tale and Dungeon Master as being quite the challenge. Maps had to be made all by hand and you had no quest logs to help you remember. Very similar to EQ in the beginning. Just figuring out what you were supposed to do and find your way there was quite an accomplishment. There was also no google available to look up the answers. The best you could hope for was a cheat code or a walkthrough in a magazine. I got raped by the monsters in Dungeon Master more times than I can remember. I even resorted to throwing the bones and gear of my dead partymembers at the monsters while trying to kite them. I remember analyzing my save games in Bard's Tale with a hex editor and writing a program to edit them just so that I could complete it. Very good times indeed.
The original post states specifically we are discussing existing MMORPGs, not imiginary games that are not yet released.