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Why Group?

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  • VrazuleVrazule Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 1,095Member
    Originally posted by crunchyblack


    well grouping is what seperates mmorpgs from rpgs.
    i think you should have the option to solo at all times, but the grouping is the fun part.
    also without group role classes, the game leans more toward a fps style where everyone is pretty much equal in what they can do.
    personal preference, however grouping should really be the focus of a mmorpg, either in dungeons, raids, guild, or pvp/faction.



     

    Persistant worlds that are constantly updated and that are populated by thousands of people are what differentiate MMOs from single player games.

    Grouping is merely a mechanism developers CHOOSE to force on us.  The fact that developers are starting to add more and more solo / small group content to old  and new games alike shows that they're finally starting to get the big picture and that offering equatable choices is the only fair thing to do.

    With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal

  • EronakisEronakis Louisville, KYPosts: 2,188Member Common
    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    Originally posted by CactusmanX


    And I don't mean why do you group but what should be the reason to group in an MMO, other than social

     

    No one needs to be in a group to socialize. You can chat in the guild channel, or global channel, and socialize all day long without grouping.

    If a single person can do it, who cares if a group makes it easier? That sounds like a game where it's pointless to group, IMO.

    I don't think grouping should be purely "social".

    I like grouping for the EXACT reasons you said you didn't like grouping, the combat mechanics.

    Also, in a game where grouping is NECESSARY, not social it changes the entire community. If you're an asshat then people dont' want you in the group, and you actually suffer  for that. With grouping being purely an optional social thing, who cares if people don't want you in a group because you're an asshat? You don't need them anyway.

    Your post strikes me as basically, I like solo games, don't want to be required to group, here's some dumb "social" thing the groupers can do so they will shut up and let me solo the game. As a grouper, I'd have zero interest in this game.

    I think your one the very few on here who comprehends whats going on here. The people who you argue with (the majority), are the new crowd to mmos. The ones played WoW first. They dont understand the grouping. I bet ya 5 bucks that if wow never went mainstream and it never had those colossal subcriber base, we wouldnt have this arguement on this forum right now.

  • elderotterelderotter Syracuse, NYPosts: 651Member
    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    Originally posted by LynxJSA



    Every thread goes the same way. The forced grouping crowd will always argue the same points, despite how many times their falsehoods are corrected.
    - Interaction and grouping are not the same thing


    - A person can contribute to the game community in forms other than DKP and knowing their role.


    - Solo play does not mean anti-social play.
     
    Read it. Write it down if you have to. But, for fuck's sake, stop bringing the same tired and completely false arguments out every damn thread.
     
     

     

     I agree with all your points, and assert a few of my own.

    Solo players will not acknowledge that grouping for no reason is not fun, while at the same time admitting that grouping is not necessary for socialization.

    Ok, if you don't need to group to socialize, which we both agree on, then why do you need to group?

    If there is absolutely no need to group, then what's supposed to make it fun?'

    Again, we've already stated it's NOT socialization, because grouping is not required to socialize.

    The reason grouping is fun, is because it requires team work to over come a challenge.

    A challenge that can be avoided, is not a real challenge.

    When you add in alternatives to group challenges that require team work, you have removed the challenge for the group player, and therefore the fun, the REASON for grouping.

    Why would you group if there is no reason for it?

    The reason cannot be socializing, because we have already agreed this can be done playing solo.

    I agree with your points but will say this: most groups I have been in, with the exception of guild- only groups(we know each other) do not focus on team-work.  Forced grouping, in my opinion, only results in a large number of what I call "Legions of Doom" usually resulting more in penalties for dying and repairing gear than rewards.  When I group I want people who understand their role in a group, not a bunch of people teamed up who have not worked together and are in it for their own rewards not the rewards for the other members of the group.  Basically, a lot of groups I have been in(non-guild variety) were just a group of solo people who happened to be in a team.You have DPS'rs trying to tank or running out into an area and aggroing everything, which results in the healer trying to heal everyone at once - not good.  You have healers who either do not understand their role or who have run out of mana trying to heal dps'rs and letting the tank die.  You have tanks who think they should be DPS'rs and nott getting the aggro on themselves.  In my experience the main thing forced grouping does is increase the number of Cluster-F*cks.

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Koolawachie, SCPosts: 14,495Member
    Originally posted by Vrazule

    Originally posted by crunchyblack


    well grouping is what seperates mmorpgs from rpgs.
    i think you should have the option to solo at all times, but the grouping is the fun part.
    also without group role classes, the game leans more toward a fps style where everyone is pretty much equal in what they can do.
    personal preference, however grouping should really be the focus of a mmorpg, either in dungeons, raids, guild, or pvp/faction.



     

    Persistant worlds that are constantly updated and that are populated by thousands of people are what differentiate MMOs from single player games.

    Grouping is merely a mechanism developers CHOOSE to force on us.  The fact that developers are starting to add more and more solo / small group content to old  and new games alike shows that they're finally starting to get the big picture and that offering equatable choices is the only fair thing to do.

     

    Fairness has nothing to do with it. Is it fair that some people like bananas, and some people like Grapefruits?

    It's just a market. Eitehr you like good grouping games, wiht a challenge and reason for grouping, or you like to play solo and don't care for the grouping game.

    Neither one is fair or unfair, they are just market choices like grapefruits or bananas.

    What if more people like bananas? Do you stop selling grapefruits?

    image

  • EronakisEronakis Louisville, KYPosts: 2,188Member Common
    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    Originally posted by hoopty

    Originally posted by Wolfenpride


    This is the cancer that is killing MMO's
    Go play a single player game if you want to do everything on your own!!

     

    Well you see I per-fer to solo on these boards. With comments like this who wants to group with you?I can have a wall list of WHY not to group..But why bother you got the point all ready!

     

    Mod edit spelling

     

    I think this is a bit of a conundrum.

    Solo players often complain that people are asshats, which is why they don't like to group.

    But, single player type games are what allows people to be asshats.

    In a good grouping game like EQ or DAoC, people tend to broadcast to the server that you suck if you're an asshat in a group, and then people won't group with you, which means you're screwed. In that situation, surprisingly, people tend to behave themselves more often because they learn quickly that being an ass actually has consequences.

    Yeah your right Ihmo, being an ass does have consequences. Which means you dont get groups you cant progress on those games nor could you get in guilds because your put on the blacklist.

  • VrazuleVrazule Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 1,095Member
    Originally posted by Eronakis

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    Originally posted by CactusmanX


    And I don't mean why do you group but what should be the reason to group in an MMO, other than social

     

    No one needs to be in a group to socialize. You can chat in the guild channel, or global channel, and socialize all day long without grouping.

    If a single person can do it, who cares if a group makes it easier? That sounds like a game where it's pointless to group, IMO.

    I don't think grouping should be purely "social".

    I like grouping for the EXACT reasons you said you didn't like grouping, the combat mechanics.

    Also, in a game where grouping is NECESSARY, not social it changes the entire community. If you're an asshat then people dont' want you in the group, and you actually suffer  for that. With grouping being purely an optional social thing, who cares if people don't want you in a group because you're an asshat? You don't need them anyway.

    Your post strikes me as basically, I like solo games, don't want to be required to group, here's some dumb "social" thing the groupers can do so they will shut up and let me solo the game. As a grouper, I'd have zero interest in this game.

    I think your one the very few on here who comprehends whats going on here. The people who you argue with (the majority), are the new crowd to mmos. The ones played WoW first. They dont understand the grouping. I bet ya 5 bucks that if wow never went mainstream and it never had those colossal subcriber base, we wouldnt have this arguement on this forum right now.



     

    Sure we would, the solo argument was very much alive and lively on the EQ forums back as early as 2000.  EQ started adding a lot more solo content after complaints long before WoW came out and so did games like DAoC and AO and AC and UO.

    With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Koolawachie, SCPosts: 14,495Member
    Originally posted by elderotter

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    Originally posted by LynxJSA



    Every thread goes the same way. The forced grouping crowd will always argue the same points, despite how many times their falsehoods are corrected.
    - Interaction and grouping are not the same thing


    - A person can contribute to the game community in forms other than DKP and knowing their role.


    - Solo play does not mean anti-social play.
     
    Read it. Write it down if you have to. But, for fuck's sake, stop bringing the same tired and completely false arguments out every damn thread.
     
     

     

     I agree with all your points, and assert a few of my own.

    Solo players will not acknowledge that grouping for no reason is not fun, while at the same time admitting that grouping is not necessary for socialization.

    Ok, if you don't need to group to socialize, which we both agree on, then why do you need to group?

    If there is absolutely no need to group, then what's supposed to make it fun?'

    Again, we've already stated it's NOT socialization, because grouping is not required to socialize.

    The reason grouping is fun, is because it requires team work to over come a challenge.

    A challenge that can be avoided, is not a real challenge.

    When you add in alternatives to group challenges that require team work, you have removed the challenge for the group player, and therefore the fun, the REASON for grouping.

    Why would you group if there is no reason for it?

    The reason cannot be socializing, because we have already agreed this can be done playing solo.

    I agree with your points but will say this: most groups I have been in, with the exception of guild- only groups(we know each other) do not focus on team-work.  Forced grouping, in my opinion, only results in a large number of what I call "Legions of Doom" usually resulting more in penalties for dying and repairing gear than rewards.  When I group I want people who understand their role in a group, not a bunch of people teamed up who have not worked together and are in it for their own rewards not the rewards for the other members of the group.  Basically, a lot of groups I have been in(non-guild variety) were just a group of solo people who happened to be in a team.You have DPS'rs trying to tank or running out into an area and aggroing everything, which results in the healer trying to heal everyone at once - not good.  You have healers who either do not understand their role or who have run out of mana trying to heal dps'rs and letting the tank die.  You have tanks who think they should be DPS'rs and nott getting the aggro on themselves.  In my experience the main thing forced grouping does is increase the number of Cluster-F*cks.

     

    What game, and what level?

    IN EQ and DAoC, by level 20 this didn't hardly exist. Since you needed to group, people did, and they learned how to do it.

    Most pick up groups in those games people will fall into their roles by level 20 with hardly any discussion, and do them fairly well, if not perfectly.

    image

  • IlvaldyrIlvaldyr MiddlesbroughPosts: 2,142Member
    Originally posted by DubaVampe

    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp 
    A challenge that can be avoided, is not a real challenge.

    The core of your argument; you want bragging rights.

    I've no problem with that; providing I can have them too .. so consider thus: 

    A group instance that rewards an epic set (called Grouphugger's Raiment or whatever).

    A solo instance that rewards an epic set (called Hermit's Regalia or whatever).

    The two instances are different, the reward sets are visually different, but they have identical "stats".

    You happy with that?

     If, and only if it took just as much time on average for somebody to do the solo instance as it did for the group to get together and do the group instance; and only if it was just as difficult.

    Then I would be fine with that, but good luck with getting those balanced and still having a game with classes and differences between players, bro.

    Could be quite simple, really. Could assign reset periods (like WoW dungeons) to ensure that soloers couldn't jump ahead, could make the solo dungeon take 5 (non-consecutive) hours so that soloers could do an hour here, an hour there, and take the full week to accomplish the same as the raider did in one 5 hour play-session.

    The reason groupers are so scared of the idea of solo-favorable content is because they think that given that content, there would be no need to group content. Like me, I'm sure they don't like the idea of going on an MMO just to play with themselves all day. Which, if the solo dungeon is ANY bit easier or more rewarding will happen.

    That's a challenge for the content designer; make both equally challenging.

     

     

    image
    Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
  • VrazuleVrazule Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 1,095Member
    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    Originally posted by Vrazule

    Originally posted by crunchyblack


    well grouping is what seperates mmorpgs from rpgs.
    i think you should have the option to solo at all times, but the grouping is the fun part.
    also without group role classes, the game leans more toward a fps style where everyone is pretty much equal in what they can do.
    personal preference, however grouping should really be the focus of a mmorpg, either in dungeons, raids, guild, or pvp/faction.



     

    Persistant worlds that are constantly updated and that are populated by thousands of people are what differentiate MMOs from single player games.

    Grouping is merely a mechanism developers CHOOSE to force on us.  The fact that developers are starting to add more and more solo / small group content to old  and new games alike shows that they're finally starting to get the big picture and that offering equatable choices is the only fair thing to do.

     

    Fairness has nothing to do with it. Is it fair that some people like bananas, and some people like Grapefruits?

    It's just a market. Eitehr you like good grouping games, wiht a challenge and reason for grouping, or you like to play solo and don't care for the grouping game.

    Neither one is fair or unfair, they are just market choices like grapefruits or bananas.

    What if more people like bananas? Do you stop selling grapefruits?



     

    However you want to view it, the market is forcing change from the grouping paradigm to a more soloable one.  There's a way to go yet, but it will get there eventually and we will get a game that caters to us.  Learn to adjust or quit, I don't care.

    With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member
    Originally posted by Eronakis

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    Originally posted by CactusmanX


    And I don't mean why do you group but what should be the reason to group in an MMO, other than social

     

    No one needs to be in a group to socialize. You can chat in the guild channel, or global channel, and socialize all day long without grouping.

    If a single person can do it, who cares if a group makes it easier? That sounds like a game where it's pointless to group, IMO.

    I don't think grouping should be purely "social".

    I like grouping for the EXACT reasons you said you didn't like grouping, the combat mechanics.

    Also, in a game where grouping is NECESSARY, not social it changes the entire community. If you're an asshat then people dont' want you in the group, and you actually suffer  for that. With grouping being purely an optional social thing, who cares if people don't want you in a group because you're an asshat? You don't need them anyway.

    Your post strikes me as basically, I like solo games, don't want to be required to group, here's some dumb "social" thing the groupers can do so they will shut up and let me solo the game. As a grouper, I'd have zero interest in this game.

    I think your one the very few on here who comprehends whats going on here. The people who you argue with (the majority), are the new crowd to mmos. The ones played WoW first. They dont understand the grouping. I bet ya 5 bucks that if wow never went mainstream and it never had those colossal subcriber base, we wouldnt have this arguement on this forum right now.



     

    People arguing about soloability in an mmo or should an mmo be solo friendly existed before WoW.   There used to be debates about it all the time in EQ.  Especially considering how viable some classes could solo some mobs such as a wizard or bard compared to trying to do anything like that as a cleric.

    Can I have my five bucks now?

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • IlvaldyrIlvaldyr MiddlesbroughPosts: 2,142Member
    Originally posted by Eronakis
    I think your one the very few on here who comprehends whats going on here. The people who you argue with (the majority), are the new crowd to mmos. The ones played WoW first. They dont understand the grouping. I bet ya 5 bucks that if wow never went mainstream and it never had those colossal subcriber base, we wouldnt have this arguement on this forum right now.

    Did you just play the "veteran" card? You went there, didn't ya?

    Don't be ignorant. I'm pro-solo and my MMO experience dates back to 1997 with the launch of UO, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that regard. There is a group of gamers (including myself) who have experienced the grouping heyday and come out the other side of it into a more relaxed, casual perspective to reflect our changing priorities in life.

    image
    Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
  • VrazuleVrazule Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 1,095Member

    God forbid that the gaming industry should reflect the diversity of it's consumer base.

    With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal

  • EronakisEronakis Louisville, KYPosts: 2,188Member Common
    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Eronakis
    I think your one the very few on here who comprehends whats going on here. The people who you argue with (the majority), are the new crowd to mmos. The ones played WoW first. They dont understand the grouping. I bet ya 5 bucks that if wow never went mainstream and it never had those colossal subcriber base, we wouldnt have this arguement on this forum right now.

    Did you just play the "veteran" card? You went there, didn't ya?

    Don't be ignorant. I'm pro-solo and my MMO experience dates back to 1997 with the launch of UO, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that regard. There is a group of gamers (including myself) who have experienced the grouping heyday and come out the other side of it into a more relaxed, casual perspective to reflect our changing priorities in life.

     

    Pro solo? Are you sure? Wow, because I ENJOY grouping over solo play that makes me a no life hardcore player? Please, you have no right to judge, you dont be ignorant!

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Koolawachie, SCPosts: 14,495Member
    Originally posted by Vrazule


    God forbid that the gaming industry should reflect the diversity of it's consumer base.

     

    They do. They make games for groupers, and games for solo players that like to group once in a while for shits and giggles.

    The problem is they dont' make many games for groupers, like EQ and DAoC.

    Even WAR turned into crap because it was a solo game.

    You solo quests, and then you jump into a scenario, and play that solo as well with others running around on your team.

    image

  • IlvaldyrIlvaldyr MiddlesbroughPosts: 2,142Member
    Originally posted by Eronakis

    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Eronakis
    I think your one the very few on here who comprehends whats going on here. The people who you argue with (the majority), are the new crowd to mmos. The ones played WoW first. They dont understand the grouping. I bet ya 5 bucks that if wow never went mainstream and it never had those colossal subcriber base, we wouldnt have this arguement on this forum right now.

    Did you just play the "veteran" card? You went there, didn't ya?

    Don't be ignorant. I'm pro-solo and my MMO experience dates back to 1997 with the launch of UO, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that regard. There is a group of gamers (including myself) who have experienced the grouping heyday and come out the other side of it into a more relaxed, casual perspective to reflect our changing priorities in life.

    Pro solo? Are you sure? Wow, because I ENJOY grouping over solo play that makes me a no life hardcore player? Please, you have no right to judge, you dont be ignorant!

    I was describing my situation/history, not yours.

    If you inferred a negative from my post, it's purely in your own mind buddy. Try not to be so touchy.

    image
    Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
  • elderotterelderotter Syracuse, NYPosts: 651Member
    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    Originally posted by elderotter

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    Originally posted by LynxJSA



    Every thread goes the same way. The forced grouping crowd will always argue the same points, despite how many times their falsehoods are corrected.
    - Interaction and grouping are not the same thing


    - A person can contribute to the game community in forms other than DKP and knowing their role.


    - Solo play does not mean anti-social play.
     
    Read it. Write it down if you have to. But, for fuck's sake, stop bringing the same tired and completely false arguments out every damn thread.
     
     

     

     I agree with all your points, and assert a few of my own.

    Solo players will not acknowledge that grouping for no reason is not fun, while at the same time admitting that grouping is not necessary for socialization.

    Ok, if you don't need to group to socialize, which we both agree on, then why do you need to group?

    If there is absolutely no need to group, then what's supposed to make it fun?'

    Again, we've already stated it's NOT socialization, because grouping is not required to socialize.

    The reason grouping is fun, is because it requires team work to over come a challenge.

    A challenge that can be avoided, is not a real challenge.

    When you add in alternatives to group challenges that require team work, you have removed the challenge for the group player, and therefore the fun, the REASON for grouping.

    Why would you group if there is no reason for it?

    The reason cannot be socializing, because we have already agreed this can be done playing solo.

    I agree with your points but will say this: most groups I have been in, with the exception of guild- only groups(we know each other) do not focus on team-work.  Forced grouping, in my opinion, only results in a large number of what I call "Legions of Doom" usually resulting more in penalties for dying and repairing gear than rewards.  When I group I want people who understand their role in a group, not a bunch of people teamed up who have not worked together and are in it for their own rewards not the rewards for the other members of the group.  Basically, a lot of groups I have been in(non-guild variety) were just a group of solo people who happened to be in a team.You have DPS'rs trying to tank or running out into an area and aggroing everything, which results in the healer trying to heal everyone at once - not good.  You have healers who either do not understand their role or who have run out of mana trying to heal dps'rs and letting the tank die.  You have tanks who think they should be DPS'rs and nott getting the aggro on themselves.  In my experience the main thing forced grouping does is increase the number of Cluster-F*cks.

     

    What game, and what level?

    IN EQ and DAoC, by level 20 this didn't hardly exist. Since you needed to group, people did, and they learned how to do it.

    Most pick up groups in those games people will fall into their roles by level 20 with hardly any discussion, and do them fairly well, if not perfectly.

    Many games, CoX,  Shadowbane,  LOTRO, WoW, EQ2 and others I have played.  The level has little to do with it - I have seen legion of doom groups well past lvl 30.  Most pick up groups I have seen have had little team work involved and experienced a large drop out rate by players who finished their quest or level before the rest of the group was done, regardless of level.

    As I said Guild-centered groups are not as bad.

  • qombiqombi Unknown, LAPosts: 1,180Member
    Originally posted by zethcarn


    To answer your question,  there hasn't been enough incentive to group yet.   I love grouping but if I'm not going to be rewarded for taking the time to put a good group of 4-6 players together then why do it?  Especially if you take an instance for example.  You get good rewards but then you level up a little more and the rewards become obsolete.
    For grouping to make a comeback in MMOs there needs to be a big incentive to do so.

     

    In Everquest leveling wasn't so fast, you actually used the gear for quite sometime so grouping was attractive. Also in Everquest is some ways was similar to what the OP is requesting. People soloed but it was much more effcient in groups and you could get better gear for grouping. MMOs have de-evolved in some aspects, even Everquest has. Don't play Everquest of today it is ruined. The winning formula that made the original game the best selling MMO of it's time is no longer there. The developers just tried to copy the newer games, so what you are left with is a really old patched together mess that tries to be WoW.

  • elderotterelderotter Syracuse, NYPosts: 651Member
    Originally posted by qombi

    Originally posted by zethcarn


    To answer your question,  there hasn't been enough incentive to group yet.   I love grouping but if I'm not going to be rewarded for taking the time to put a good group of 4-6 players together then why do it?  Especially if you take an instance for example.  You get good rewards but then you level up a little more and the rewards become obsolete.
    For grouping to make a comeback in MMOs there needs to be a big incentive to do so.

     

    In Everquest leveling wasn't so fast, you actually used the gear for quite sometime so grouping was attractive. Also in Everquest is some ways was similar to what the OP is requesting. People soloed but it was much more effcient in groups and you could get better gear for grouping. MMOs have de-evolved in some aspects, even Everquest has. Don't play Everquest of today it is ruined. The winning formula that made the original game the best selling MMO of it's time is no longer there. The developers just tried to copy the newer games, so what you are left with is a really old patched together mess that tries to be WoW.

    I agree with most of your post.  I think attempts to make another WoW or even a Wow killer are ruining MMO's.  However I do not think that the term de-evolved is correct.  Without a solo capability Games would be leaving unaddressed a sizable community which would be unwise financially.  It sounds like you are trying to say that no solo content should ever be in any game.  Thus leaving people who enjoy solo content out in the dark.  The wise developer tries to make a game  that addresses both camps, knowing that neither camp will be wholly pleased,  that is called compromise.     You can please all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time.  Group only and solo only games would never get as many people sub'ing to them as a game that offers both.  The developer wants as many subs as possible, leaving one or the other group out of the game would limit the number of subs.  Just my opinion.  Myself, i have no problem grouping, especially with guild mates, when I have to but I like the ability to do as much as I can, through my skills and knowledge of my character's class as possible.  I may be wrong but I think there are many like me, we group when we have to and tend to group with guildmates where possible over random pick-up groups.  At least with guildmates you have some knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of each member and can come to an agreement of when to schedule the group.

    With random pick-up groups much time is spent on forming and then rebuilding the group, as people drop out for whatever reason, and who knows who is going to be in the group.  I know that much has been said about in group only games you can blacklist certain players but that doesn't help them learn to be a better team player.  I can argue that solo play does because you learn your character intimately - without doing so you will fail at solo play much less team play.

      Solo play can be an asset to grouping in that it helps a player learn their class's strengths and weaknesses.  I know that the group- only side will disagree with this, but I have yet to see an argument from them that is not is not selfish.  At least I argue that a balance is better, I never say that solo only games are better, just that some solo content should be in the game.  Without it you will have less people in the game and the groupers will still have the same problem of not being able to find people to group with... not because people are soloing but because there is a smaller population of players in the game.  I have found group only games to be both frustrating and boring.  As always - just my opinion.

  • qombiqombi Unknown, LAPosts: 1,180Member
    Originally posted by elderotter

    Originally posted by qombi

    Originally posted by zethcarn


    To answer your question,  there hasn't been enough incentive to group yet.   I love grouping but if I'm not going to be rewarded for taking the time to put a good group of 4-6 players together then why do it?  Especially if you take an instance for example.  You get good rewards but then you level up a little more and the rewards become obsolete.
    For grouping to make a comeback in MMOs there needs to be a big incentive to do so.

     

    In Everquest leveling wasn't so fast, you actually used the gear for quite sometime so grouping was attractive. Also in Everquest is some ways was similar to what the OP is requesting. People soloed but it was much more effcient in groups and you could get better gear for grouping. MMOs have de-evolved in some aspects, even Everquest has. Don't play Everquest of today it is ruined. The winning formula that made the original game the best selling MMO of it's time is no longer there. The developers just tried to copy the newer games, so what you are left with is a really old patched together mess that tries to be WoW.

    I agree with most of your post.  I think attempts to make another WoW or even a Wow killer are ruining MMO's.  However I do not think that the term de-evolved is correct.  Without a solo capability Games would be leaving unaddressed a sizable community which would be unwise financially.  It sounds like you are trying to say that no solo content should ever be in any game.  Thus leaving people who enjoy solo content out in the dark.  The wise developer tries to make a game  that addresses both camps, knowing that neither camp will be wholly pleased,  that is called compromise.     You can please all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time.  Group only and solo only games would never get as many people sub'ing to them as a game that offers both.  The developer wants as many subs as possible, leaving one or the other group out of the game would limit the number of subs.  Just my opinion.  Myself, i have no problem grouping, especially with guild mates, when I have to but I like the ability to do as much as I can, through my skills and knowledge of my character's class as possible.  I may be wrong but I think there are many like me, we group when we have to and tend to group with guildmates where possible over random pick-up groups.  At least with guildmates you have some knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of each member and can come to an agreement of when to schedule the group.

    With random pick-up groups much time is spent on forming and then rebuilding the group, as people drop out for whatever reason, and who knows who is going to be in the group.  I know that much has been said about in group only games you can blacklist certain players but that doesn't help them learn to be a better team player.  I can argue that solo play does because you learn your character intimately - without doing so you will fail at solo play much less team play.

      Solo play can be an asset to grouping in that it helps a player learn their class's strengths and weaknesses.  I know that the group- only side will disagree with this, but I have yet to see an argument from them that is not is not selfish.  At least I argue that a balance is better, I never say that solo only games are better, just that some solo content should be in the game.  Without it you will have less people in the game and the groupers will still have the same problem of not being able to find people to group with... not because people are soloing but because there is a smaller population of players in the game.  I have found group only games to be both frustrating and boring.  As always - just my opinion.

     

    I stated in my post that you could solo in Everquest just wasn't as beneficial as grouping. I do not think that solo should be removed from MMOs. On the contrary I believe solo should be part of a MMO, not at all times can you find a group. I do believe however that grouping should reward you for coming together with others. With grouping being more attractive as an option, I believe it makes it much easier for everyone to find a group.

  • elderotterelderotter Syracuse, NYPosts: 651Member
    Originally posted by qombi

    Originally posted by elderotter

    Originally posted by qombi

    Originally posted by zethcarn


    To answer your question,  there hasn't been enough incentive to group yet.   I love grouping but if I'm not going to be rewarded for taking the time to put a good group of 4-6 players together then why do it?  Especially if you take an instance for example.  You get good rewards but then you level up a little more and the rewards become obsolete.
    For grouping to make a comeback in MMOs there needs to be a big incentive to do so.

     

    In Everquest leveling wasn't so fast, you actually used the gear for quite sometime so grouping was attractive. Also in Everquest is some ways was similar to what the OP is requesting. People soloed but it was much more effcient in groups and you could get better gear for grouping. MMOs have de-evolved in some aspects, even Everquest has. Don't play Everquest of today it is ruined. The winning formula that made the original game the best selling MMO of it's time is no longer there. The developers just tried to copy the newer games, so what you are left with is a really old patched together mess that tries to be WoW.

    I agree with most of your post.  I think attempts to make another WoW or even a Wow killer are ruining MMO's.  However I do not think that the term de-evolved is correct.  Without a solo capability Games would be leaving unaddressed a sizable community which would be unwise financially.  It sounds like you are trying to say that no solo content should ever be in any game.  Thus leaving people who enjoy solo content out in the dark.  The wise developer tries to make a game  that addresses both camps, knowing that neither camp will be wholly pleased,  that is called compromise.     You can please all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time.  Group only and solo only games would never get as many people sub'ing to them as a game that offers both.  The developer wants as many subs as possible, leaving one or the other group out of the game would limit the number of subs.  Just my opinion.  Myself, i have no problem grouping, especially with guild mates, when I have to but I like the ability to do as much as I can, through my skills and knowledge of my character's class as possible.  I may be wrong but I think there are many like me, we group when we have to and tend to group with guildmates where possible over random pick-up groups.  At least with guildmates you have some knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of each member and can come to an agreement of when to schedule the group.

    With random pick-up groups much time is spent on forming and then rebuilding the group, as people drop out for whatever reason, and who knows who is going to be in the group.  I know that much has been said about in group only games you can blacklist certain players but that doesn't help them learn to be a better team player.  I can argue that solo play does because you learn your character intimately - without doing so you will fail at solo play much less team play.

      Solo play can be an asset to grouping in that it helps a player learn their class's strengths and weaknesses.  I know that the group- only side will disagree with this, but I have yet to see an argument from them that is not is not selfish.  At least I argue that a balance is better, I never say that solo only games are better, just that some solo content should be in the game.  Without it you will have less people in the game and the groupers will still have the same problem of not being able to find people to group with... not because people are soloing but because there is a smaller population of players in the game.  I have found group only games to be both frustrating and boring.  As always - just my opinion.

     

    I stated in my post that you could solo in Everquest just wasn't as beneficial as grouping. I do not think that solo should be removed from MMOs. On the contrary I believe solo should be part of a MMO, not at all times can you find a group. I do believe however that grouping should reward you for coming together with others. With grouping being more attractive as an option, I believe it makes it much easier for everyone to find a group.

    It would have to be a major reward to benefit you  - since most of my experience in non-guild groups is that being in a group is detrimental to my enjoyment of the game - mostly due to the non team attitude of most of those who do random groups.

  • toddzetoddze no where, OKPosts: 2,155Member
    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Eronakis
    I think your one the very few on here who comprehends whats going on here. The people who you argue with (the majority), are the new crowd to mmos. The ones played WoW first. They dont understand the grouping. I bet ya 5 bucks that if wow never went mainstream and it never had those colossal subcriber base, we wouldnt have this arguement on this forum right now.

    Did you just play the "veteran" card? You went there, didn't ya?

    Don't be ignorant. I'm pro-solo and my MMO experience dates back to 1997 with the launch of UO, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that regard. There is a group of gamers (including myself) who have experienced the grouping heyday and come out the other side of it into a more relaxed, casual perspective to reflect our changing priorities in life.

     

    Yours as well as my priorities have changed but what is completly ignorant and selfish is assuming that since ours has changed, that means everyones has changed. But it seems that the solist is about selfishness so I am not surprised. There are countless others who took our spot with a lots of hours to devote to a game. They have no idea what games like UO, EQ, FFXI were like in their heyday.

    Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
    Now Playing: N/A
    Worst MMO: FFXIV
    Favorite MMO: FFXI

  • elderotterelderotter Syracuse, NYPosts: 651Member
    Originally posted by toddze

    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Eronakis
    I think your one the very few on here who comprehends whats going on here. The people who you argue with (the majority), are the new crowd to mmos. The ones played WoW first. They dont understand the grouping. I bet ya 5 bucks that if wow never went mainstream and it never had those colossal subcriber base, we wouldnt have this arguement on this forum right now.

    Did you just play the "veteran" card? You went there, didn't ya?

    Don't be ignorant. I'm pro-solo and my MMO experience dates back to 1997 with the launch of UO, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that regard. There is a group of gamers (including myself) who have experienced the grouping heyday and come out the other side of it into a more relaxed, casual perspective to reflect our changing priorities in life.

     

    Yours as well as my priorities have changed but what is completly ignorant and selfish is assuming that since ours has changed, that means everyones has changed. But it seems that the solist is about selfishness so I am not surprised. There are countless others who took our spot with a lots of hours to devote to a game. They have no idea what games like UO, EQ, FFXI were like in their heyday.

    Soloing is about selfishness just as much as random grouping is.  Which is to say I do not agree.  To me soloing is a challenge, random grouping is also a challenge - how long can I stay in the group before the petty BS drives me back to soloing.

  • ArturslArtursl RigaPosts: 24Member

    I 100% agree to the whole "needs more twitch right there" argument. I've been wanting this for ages and I'm not the only one. A lot of people have been throwing the idea of twitch based mmo's. Closes we have had was...Tabula Rasa? And then we have Huxley which is in the beta atm.

    But on the grouping - Yes, I agree. Grouping should make things easier and more fun and should by no means be mandatory and forced. Large groups should only be enforced in pvp events, when your guild/faction needs people to defend/attack.

  • toddzetoddze no where, OKPosts: 2,155Member
    Originally posted by elderotter





    Soloing is about selfishness just as much as random grouping is.  Which is to say I do not agree.  To me soloing is a challenge, random grouping is also a challenge - how long can I stay in the group before the petty BS drives me back to soloing.

     

    Ahh but your main problem is your grouping with soloists, who only care about themselves. Thats why PUG groups in solo friendly games are dangerous.

    Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
    Now Playing: N/A
    Worst MMO: FFXIV
    Favorite MMO: FFXI

  • elderotterelderotter Syracuse, NYPosts: 651Member
    Originally posted by toddze

    Originally posted by elderotter





    Soloing is about selfishness just as much as random grouping is.  Which is to say I do not agree.  To me soloing is a challenge, random grouping is also a challenge - how long can I stay in the group before the petty BS drives me back to soloing.

     

    Ahh but your main problem is your grouping with soloists, who only care about themselves. Thats why PUG groups in solo friendly games are dangerous.

    Actually I learned long ago to group with guild mates, especially those who use TS or vent.  Which is why - in several of my posts - I made sure to differentiate between random and guild groups.

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