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For pete's sake, nobody gives a crap about story...

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  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Koolawachie, SCPosts: 14,495Member
    Originally posted by cukimunga

    Originally posted by Barteaux

    Originally posted by Delondial


    I can see the OP's point here. I am drawn to a player driven world. Giving players control of almost every aspect (i.e economy, city conrol blah blah) is something that should in my opionon set MMOs apart from co-op RPGs. Story is secondary only because it should, in theory, be subject to what the masses are doing in the world.
     

     

    /agreed

    I'm not to keen on a pre-written story myself. I'd rather make my own.

    Nothing against some storytelling, but hundreds of hours of story won't substitute playability, crafting, player driven economy, pvp etc.

    So how does one make there own story in a game? Unless they give you tools to make quests I don't see that possible.  Like for example  Im a character that is playing a farmer and I built my farm in what used to be a peaceful area. But things have changed in game and suddenly wolves have started appearing in my area.   I can't fend them off my self so I need to hire someone to kill them. So I set something up in the town bulletin board someone sees and comes to see me. They take the "quest" and complete it, I give them money now I can go back to my business, they search for some others in need of help.

     

    For a game to have real player driven story the world has to change in real time, weather has to effect things, AI has to be smart and migrate,reproduce and get over populated or get underpopulated. Players have to need things and offer services so you have to be only one class or job, you cant be a monster hunter and a crafter  at the same time but you can change jobs whenever. 

    There are a lot of things that need to happen for a game to be completely player ran. I sure as hell wouldn't want to play a farmer, I would want to be an adventurer roaming around the world sleeping where I can and killing things. But if people want to do that then thats cool with me, the game needs people that want to do that sort of thing.

     

    Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a game like this but there are so many variables that come in to factor it would make it really hard to make.  I guess games like Entropia and 2nd life are close to a player driven story because basicly just like living in the real world. But we have no games like this in the Fantasy settings, at least I haven't heard of any.

     

     

     

    Generally, when people talk about the players making their own story, it is a game where the players have some affect over the world, usually in the form of territory control or something else that impacts the players.

    There are many "player stories" in EVE, because the game is all about the Corporations, and what sector of space they control, which Corporations took out each other, which Corps were betrayed by their members, those that rose to power then lost evertying, etc.

    It's not really about player made quests, but the story of the world becomes like World History. You can read about the wars between the Romans and the Greeks, or the power struggles in Europe before and after the Dark Ages, etc., etc.

    PLayers tend to care much more about how they changed the game world, then some lore that's just a bunch of words that doesn't mean anything or have any real affect on game play.

    Why do you need to know the lore in WoW? You don't. In EVE you need to know the history of the various Corporatoins so you know who's allied with whom, who is deadly enemies with whom, and so on. It's actually usefull information.

    However, the pre written story in a game can vary in quality. It just so happens that the story in KOTOR is very, very good, unlike most MMORPG lore and quests which are just crap.

    Also, the "stories" in TOR will have slightly diifferent outcomes depending on your choices. That helps make it a bit more engaging, or at least I hope it will be.

    image

  • admriker4admriker4 boise, IDPosts: 1,070Member

    i equate story to questing and in this case, forced questing.

    I dont want to be forced into a KOTOR style series of quests....

    complete quest A to access quest B.

    complete quest B to access quest C.

    complete quest C and leave planet.

    next planet

    complete quest A to access quest B

    rinse and repeat

    sure its cool to have different dialog based on different responses. And that is supposed to make the game fun to replay according to Bioware.

    But since when is an MMO about replayability ? Because WoW got us used to re-rolling a toon once the theme park content ride ended, its now considered content to play another toon ? And I should desire this more simply because I can choose option B or C in quest dialog ???

    When did this idea that single rpg gameplay, ie replaying the game once you beat it filter into MMO's ? And whats with the focus on questing / story ?

    I like quests but I want them hidden, hard to find, no tor-wiki walkthrough postings, and the option to not be forced to do them.

    story/quests should be something like icing on the cake or ice cream added to a hot slice of apple pie.  But recently its the entire focus and thats where i have issues.

    this is the inherent flaw with level based, class systems via theme park content. the danger is running out of content so lets make the game fun to replay.

    i'd rather have sandbox freedom, thats the ultimate in replayable content. I was never bored in star wars galaxies but ive cancelled wow6 times after ive done all the rides 

  • banthisbanthis orlando, FLPosts: 1,891Member

    Last time I played a sandbox game there were no quests and it was repeatative and boring.  The few 'quests' were go kill some boars or bears or whatever was bothering the npc so that you could gain a few points in X skill.  

    BTW in TOR Quest A doesn't lead to Quest B it leads to Options that could Take you to B1 B2 or B3 etc.   That doesn't even include all the side quests if you go and help someone else with their story or when your stories might intermingle which properly encourages players to play together instead of all the negative reasons to group like group by force or die in other games.

    Star Wars was always about the story and the choices the characters made and where it ultimately lead them in the end.  TOR's doing STar Wars right by bringing back story and hopefully the feeling of being a hero or villian depending on your choices.  (if the stories end up bland and boring i'll jump off a cliff in dispair).

    Im not saying more open games like the original SWG can't be fun but they get dry and they don't keep the game feeling massive as other people keep dropping out for the more theme park experience. Atlesat for once the theme park is going to have choices lots and lots and lots and lots of choices and honestly thats a huge step up.

     

  • CoochanaweCoochanawe Prinecton, NJPosts: 21Member
    Originally posted by Netzoko


    It blows my mind how out of touch developers are with the MMO base. With literally the biggest IP in the world, their focus is NOT what gamers have hated about mmos for years. No no, they will contiune to shovel the bullshit, but will now have STORY!
    Are you kidding me? The level of absurdity is making my brain swell. People hate classes, they hate levels, they hate watered-down gameplay and grind. Does BioWare plan on address these -universal- complaints? Fuck no, to them the problem with MMOs is story? My mind is utterly blown. From forum to forum across the internet, followers are asking the same basic questions. Whats pvp like? Whats pve like? How are the classes? What is the item system like? Yet over and over, every single dev blog and release is about story. I just can't wrap my head around the unsurpassable amount of ignorance by the dev teams. You would think that seeing the failings of supposed "blockbuster" MMOs like Aoc and WAR would send a message, but no. Alas we continue to be insulted by developers who ignore the -KEY- issues people have with the genre, and instead focus on something utterly worthless.
    Newsflash jackasses, your customers arn't upset with lack of story, they are upset with the cookie cutter MMO template that money grubing bandwagoners like you continue to reiterate and expect to sell.



     

    Day 1 of each MMO i played was the last time i read the wall of text giving me a backstory to killing x amount of enemies.

    Instead I collected xp, loot, and consumed content disguised by pretty graphics and partcile effects.

    Thats not going to cut it anymore.  There are a ton of players who are over what WoW has done to the market. 

    So the mold is broken, and we are getting a huge bonus.  A game that has us focusing on whats around every turn, what our characters do and how they develop within the persistant world....not loot, pioints, titles, etc.

  • CoochanaweCoochanawe Prinecton, NJPosts: 21Member
    Originally posted by kopema

    Originally posted by Delondial

    I am open to this new concept of Bioware's, but will as always be careful about getting excited. As is, I reserve judgement until I get my hands on a final copy.  



     

    That's the problem, I don't see the "new" part.  Book technology has been around for several years now.  Computer animation adds a little bit.  But it's safe to say that SWTOR won't be anywhere near as well-animated as Clone Wars, and that sucked.



     

    I don't think there will be an endgame...with micro transactions it will just be more stories...not a raid grind to extend epeens.

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,289Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Coochanawe

    Originally posted by kopema

    Originally posted by Delondial

    I am open to this new concept of Bioware's, but will as always be careful about getting excited. As is, I reserve judgement until I get my hands on a final copy.  



     

    That's the problem, I don't see the "new" part.  Book technology has been around for several years now.  Computer animation adds a little bit.  But it's safe to say that SWTOR won't be anywhere near as well-animated as Clone Wars, and that sucked.



     

    I don't think there will be an endgame...with micro transactions it will just be more stories...not a raid grind to extend epeens.

    well i thought the graphic animation in the clone wars cartoons was terrible, so if the game isnt like that, then thats a good thing imo.. but micro transactions, does that mean that these story lines that the game is going to revolve around, you have to buy them perhaps, i might be wrong here, but, it sounds to me that that is the direction they were heading in ?

     

  • ktanner3ktanner3 lakeland, FLPosts: 4,074Member Common
    Originally posted by Ghostworks


    Wow, this thread turned into a flame war right quick ;)
    A buddy of mine got lost in FFXII because he kept skipping cutscenes and had no idea what the FF was going on. We all had a laugh because he sucks at games with no story as well.
    Bottom line is SOME people care about story some don't. Most "blockbuster" movies have a story so thin that it needs to be masked by action sequences and special effects. But with no story whatsoever, then how will you be immersed in any sort of fantasy? Do you get a "vivid imagination discount" at the box office?
    There are plenty of ways to enjoy Star Wars without the story. Like the prequels, for example! The story simultaneously sucked and blew. Hell, The Force Unleashed had a decent premise, even if the story's execution was weak. It was still engaging enough that I cared to some degree what the characters' fates were. It also had gameplay, button-mashy though it might have been.
    If you want no story elements, then don't play games like this, or any standard breed RPG either. Play puzzle and sports games or multiplayer-only FPS's and stop complaining when a dev team emphasizes story. I for one welcome any effort to engross the user in the world presented to him.
     
    EDIT: Anyone else think this thread should be closed? What else is there to discuss about a book we haven't read?
     
     
     

    I agree, but if we closed every troll thread then this forum would be 3/4 empty. Plus the trolls would whine that they are being denied their "free speech."

     

    Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,289Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ktanner3

    Originally posted by Ghostworks


    Wow, this thread turned into a flame war right quick ;)
    A buddy of mine got lost in FFXII because he kept skipping cutscenes and had no idea what the FF was going on. We all had a laugh because he sucks at games with no story as well.
    Bottom line is SOME people care about story some don't. Most "blockbuster" movies have a story so thin that it needs to be masked by action sequences and special effects. But with no story whatsoever, then how will you be immersed in any sort of fantasy? Do you get a "vivid imagination discount" at the box office?
    There are plenty of ways to enjoy Star Wars without the story. Like the prequels, for example! The story simultaneously sucked and blew. Hell, The Force Unleashed had a decent premise, even if the story's execution was weak. It was still engaging enough that I cared to some degree what the characters' fates were. It also had gameplay, button-mashy though it might have been.
    If you want no story elements, then don't play games like this, or any standard breed RPG either. Play puzzle and sports games or multiplayer-only FPS's and stop complaining when a dev team emphasizes story. I for one welcome any effort to engross the user in the world presented to him.
     
    EDIT: Anyone else think this thread should be closed? What else is there to discuss about a book we haven't read?
     
     
     

    I agree, but if we closed every troll thread then this forum would be 3/4 empty. Plus the trolls would whine that they are being denied their "free speech."

     



     

    its hard to say, storyline based games arent entirely a new concept, but implementation, there is also the limitations associated with these things as they inevitably lead to linear gameplay, although if the game really is going to be using a micropayment method then i guess it does make sense, as game progression would rely on storylines, and they could in effect be subject to purchase to unlock conditions.  it does have possibilities after all.

  • rr2realrr2real San Luis Obispo, CAPosts: 448Member

    if you care about story in a MMO you need to get a life

    all devs need to do is make good game play and a lot of content

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,289Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rr2real


    if you care about story in a MMO you need to get a life
    all devs need to do is make good game play and a lot of content



     

    game play is definitely far more important than storyline, without doubt, but a decent storyline can 'enhance' gameplay, though its not really required. a game should be fun to play without requiring you to take part in an episode from eastenders ;D

  • thexratedthexrated OuluPosts: 1,368Member Common
    Originally posted by Phry

    Originally posted by rr2real


    if you care about story in a MMO you need to get a life
    all devs need to do is make good game play and a lot of content



    game play is definitely far more important than storyline, without doubt, but a decent storyline can 'enhance' gameplay, though its not really required. a game should be fun to play without requiring you to take part in an episode from eastenders ;D

     

    To you perhaps. It is unlikely that you will find what you are looking for in a Bioware game, sorry to say. They tend to be heavily scripted experiences where interactive storytelling is not an afterthought, but a major part of the whole experience.  

    "The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,289Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by thexrated

    Originally posted by Phry

    Originally posted by rr2real


    if you care about story in a MMO you need to get a life
    all devs need to do is make good game play and a lot of content



    game play is definitely far more important than storyline, without doubt, but a decent storyline can 'enhance' gameplay, though its not really required. a game should be fun to play without requiring you to take part in an episode from eastenders ;D

     

    To you perhaps. It is unlikely that you will find what you are looking for in a Bioware game, sorry to say. They tend to be heavily scripted experiences where interactive storytelling is not an afterthought, but a major part of the whole experience.  

    i dont know whether im an atypical online gamer or not, im just saying it as i see it. if a game isnt fun for me, then i won't play it, but your right too, i havent played a bioware game for quite a few years, though i do have a few of them,  that is, i have some 'black isle' games aka, baldurs gate saga. and i currently play Eve online and WOW, perhaps im not the kind of player Bioware are aiming at

     

  • takayitakayi HelsinkiPosts: 158Member

    Good story = more enjoyable gameplay. Why?



    Every single character (e.g. alt) you make, will have different story, so you wont have to do the same crap over and over again if you want to try something new. Something new? All new from classes to quests during the enjoyable leveling with great story.

    image

  • thexratedthexrated OuluPosts: 1,368Member Common
    Originally posted by Phry

    Originally posted by thexrated

    Originally posted by Phry

    Originally posted by rr2real


    if you care about story in a MMO you need to get a life
    all devs need to do is make good game play and a lot of content



    game play is definitely far more important than storyline, without doubt, but a decent storyline can 'enhance' gameplay, though its not really required. a game should be fun to play without requiring you to take part in an episode from eastenders ;D

     

    To you perhaps. It is unlikely that you will find what you are looking for in a Bioware game, sorry to say. They tend to be heavily scripted experiences where interactive storytelling is not an afterthought, but a major part of the whole experience.  

    i dont know whether im an atypical online gamer or not, im just saying it as i see it. if a game isnt fun for me, then i won't play it, but your right too, i havent played a bioware game for quite a few years, though i do have a few of them,  that is, i have some 'black isle' games aka, baldurs gate saga. and i currently play Eve online and WOW, perhaps im not the kind of player Bioware are aiming at

     

    Well I currently play EVE as well. And have played WoW on and off since the US closed beta

    However, what I do expect Bioware to deliver is neither EVE or WoW, but more towards what KOTOR/Mass Effect/Jade Empire/Neverwinter Nights were. I really do not want it to be anything like the games I already play. With their storytelling skills, Bioware has thus far kept me entertained. And you ask them not to care about the very thing that makes their game studio one of the best RPG studios in the world? You are just being silly.

     

    "The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,289Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by takayi


    Good story = more enjoyable gameplay. Why?



    Every single character (e.g. alt) you make, will have different story, so you wont have to do the same crap over and over again if you want to try something new. Something new? All new from classes to quests during the enjoyable leveling with great story.



     

    and every character will have its own bio.. only, does anyone ever read those things, story can make things more fun, but without decent gameplay, its just words. its like yesterdays newspaper, once youve read it, you throw it away.

  • rr2realrr2real San Luis Obispo, CAPosts: 448Member
    Originally posted by Phry

    Originally posted by takayi


    Good story = more enjoyable gameplay. Why?



    Every single character (e.g. alt) you make, will have different story, so you wont have to do the same crap over and over again if you want to try something new. Something new? All new from classes to quests during the enjoyable leveling with great story.



     

    and every character will have its own bio.. only, does anyone ever read those things, story can make things more fun, but without decent gameplay, its just words. its like yesterdays newspaper, once youve read it, you throw it away.

    no one ever reads that crap and it would be a better use of resources to make good classes, gameplay, and content for all levels

  • nanovipernanoviper Virginia Beach, VAPosts: 69Member

    You're right alot of people don't care about story, for those people there's world of grindcraft. For people who are gamer's (an audience not really targeted by mainstream mmo's for a while) we have The Old Republic. If you don't like story then why play a star wars mmo, Star Wars is an IP made popular by it's ability to convey a fun exiting story. If you, don't like star wars, are not a gamer, and am looking for a wow like expirence why not just go play warcraft, and keep grinding away for gear to use in heavily instanced gear-based pvp.

    Blizzard uses WOW to harvest hours played into bottles so that the dev team can remain immortal

  • steamtanksteamtank Rochester, NYPosts: 385Member

    im confused:

     

    isnt their already a star wars mmo out that doesnt focus on story?

     

    i am aslo confused as to why people would want all dev teams to go in the same direction. "oh screw story a good mmo doesnt need it!"

     

    maybe if bioware pulls it off..... a good themepark mmo from here on out WILL require a good story to be considered a good game. not just its gameplay and graphics.

     

    minus their art style (which is a bit WoW for me.) I am excited to see some big names not trying to make WoW clones.

     

    some variety of what we can play, not just a change in the skin of our characters, is a much needed thing in this genre.

  • nanovipernanoviper Virginia Beach, VAPosts: 69Member

    Also you have to remember like it or not, Bioware is the single greatest company when it comes to creating intriging RPG's. They have been for years and so when creating an mmo they played on their strengths: The ability to craft an amazing story. And I hate to say it but story is really what was missing from mmo's. I mean If Warcraft was interesting the level grind wouldn't be a grind it would be an expirence. On the most basic level all games are level grind's what cuts up the monotony is the story and objective driving said grinding.

    Blizzard uses WOW to harvest hours played into bottles so that the dev team can remain immortal

  • Methos12Methos12 Maladis 46Posts: 1,234Member Uncommon

    People these days... it's very simple actually: you'll START caring about the story or this MMO isn't for you. Simple as that.

    Nature without Technology is little more than animals running about.
    Nature without Magic is without wonder or miracle.
    .........
    Magic without Technology is fantasy.
    Magic without Nature is formless and useless.
    .........
    Technology without Nature is application without understanding.
    Technology without Magic is repetitious and uninventive.
  • ArturslArtursl RigaPosts: 24Member

    From what i've seen, this game needs a good story. I'll be honest, I never do my research on MMO's but it seems that this will have a lot of moral choices and instanced quests/maps/missions which will have a lot of decision making. And yes, that needs to have a damn story. It makes the player immersed and it imrpoves the replayabilty. Sandbox games can have the luxury of not having a great story, all they need is a backdrop and almost all the resources should be directed at other things, while here they are trying to do something different - implementing the unique character depth and story that are typical of single player games into a mmo.

  • rr2realrr2real San Luis Obispo, CAPosts: 448Member
    Originally posted by Methos12


    People these days... it's very simple actually: you'll START caring about the story or this MMO isn't for you. Simple as that.

     

    if your life is so boring that you need to care about story in an MMO you need to shut off the computer and go out more

  • IlvaldyrIlvaldyr MiddlesbroughPosts: 2,142Member
    Originally posted by rr2real

    Originally posted by Methos12


    People these days... it's very simple actually: you'll START caring about the story or this MMO isn't for you. Simple as that.

     if your life is so boring that you need to care about story in an MMO you need to shut off the computer and go out more

    Yeah, people who read books, play RPGs or watch movies are just sooo lame.

    image
    Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
  • Deathstrike2Deathstrike2 Wellston, OHPosts: 1,801Member
    Originally posted by rr2real

    Originally posted by Methos12


    People these days... it's very simple actually: you'll START caring about the story or this MMO isn't for you. Simple as that.

     

    if your life is so boring that you need to care about story in an MMO you need to shut off the computer and go out more



     

    Who the heck are you?  Ann Landers? 

    p.s., your computer is still on....

     

  • steamtanksteamtank Rochester, NYPosts: 385Member
    Originally posted by rr2real

    Originally posted by Methos12


    People these days... it's very simple actually: you'll START caring about the story or this MMO isn't for you. Simple as that.

     

    if your life is so boring that you need to care about story in an MMO you need to shut off the computer and go out more



     

    if your life is so exciting you never need to read or watch any other stories... no news, no tv at all, no movies, no magazines, no books, no friends telling you about their day.......   then you need to be writing a book about your life.

     

    wtf are you doing on the internet, your life is far to exciting for sucha mundane task.

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