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General: MMO Underbelly: Progress In Open Chat?

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  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon

    So it is wrong to be a bigot but it is good to be a bitch? Yes we all know if it is something you are doing is as a woman then that automatically makes it alright. Thank you for that bit of nonsense.

  • thamighty213thamighty213 NewcastlePosts: 1,630Member
    Originally posted by grimfall


    There's a lot of irony in this article from Sanya.
     
    She's quick to point out that she condemns racial and sexual insults and sterotypes... then she proceeds to sterotype MMO gamers by acting shocked that they object to people using certain deragotory words and report bugs without expecting any compensation.  Too bad MMO players aren't a protected class, then Sanya would now be fired and blacklisted in the community.
     
    Sanya, sterotyping people is a bad thing to do, even if your government hasn't passed laws against it.  Grow up.

     

    Yes I took the same from that article.

     

    Then continues to basically call all mmo players basement dweller's also.

     

    Totally hypocritical and yet another rubbish article of her on her soapbox,  really wish MMORPG.com would just get rid of her becoming seriously tired of her drivel and get it replaced with genuine articles on "The MMO Underbelly" and not the current weekly "Sanya's Soapbox" we currently have.

  • daelnordaelnor Manteca, CAPosts: 1,569Member

    Ouch.

    I think this article was written as space filler, as well as to stimulate conversation.  I am not sure Sanya expected this serious of a reaction to it though.

    Cut her a little slack, I have always enjoyed Sanya's articles, I just think this one made a bigger splash than she anticipated.  I highly doubt there is really an evil mastermind plot behind it.  It is an opinion piece meant to share a bit of the MMO world with the public.  It is unfortunate that it generated a giant target on her forehead.

    Honestly though, it's been one hell of a conversation!

    For the record: I'm entirely sick of hearing that "white heterosexual males automatically have it easier than X, Y, or Z category."

    That's as horrible as saying " I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn’t lived that life."

    Because, you know, white people are so busy holding everyone else down that they don't have time to be as naturally talented as any other demographic.

    p.s. I am not white, I'm just tired of people spouting garbage that is 30 years outdated. It simply isn't true anymore. White people are discriminated against as much as anyone else.  I really don't think that people should have to feel apologetic for being born white, or think that they should have to feel sorry for anyone not white. 

    I'm pretty much with Zorvan on everything except the Sanya bashing.  I don't really think the article was meant to be as nefarious as he made out in the last couple posts of his.

    image

  • ZorvanZorvan nowhere, CAPosts: 8,912Member

    Oh, this won't do. Sanya's great contribution to racial relations being off the front page? We can't have that, so I'll just put it back there.

  • mOoKmOoK Seattle, WAPosts: 26Member

    Not suprised that this thread is still going.

    Here is the thing people:

    Some of you are using words that offend people either because you think its cool or accepted or on purpose. 

    You could use other words.

    There are MANY words available in the dictionary with the meaning you're looking for.

    If you continue to use them just to offend or get attention, you're a jerk.

  • streeastreea Dallas, TXPosts: 654Member

    Here's a list for you:

    junkie

    gay

    bigoted

    bitch

    ignorant

    jerk

    crazy

    excrement

    hell

    rabid weasels

    All of these words, at one time or another, used to have more "power." There was force behind using these words. Some a little less (junkie, ignorant) while others still upset people (bitch, gay, hell) who think you'll burn in *ahem* hell for saying such words.

    The only word Sanya doesn't say directly is nigger. Oooh bad word! Oh no wait, that's what one of my black (gasp, I said black) friends calls me every time we see each other. And guess what? I say it back.

    Words evolve and change, both with culture changes as well as personal changes. While yes, there are more "intelligent" words to use instead of the ones listed above, that doesn't change the fact that these words HAVE lost their meaning. I remember when calling another woman a bitch would start a fight. Now? Women, like Sanya, are "proud" to be what used mean that a woman was a female mutt that would let any and every stray dog bang her.

    Gay and nigger are just like bitch and hell. Time will pass, and the words will change.

    PS: Gotta love how on MMORPG we can talk about this stuff without worrying about filters or masks :)

  • mOoKmOoK Seattle, WAPosts: 26Member
    For the record: I'm entirely sick of hearing that "white heterosexual males automatically have it easier than X, Y, or Z category."
    That's as horrible as saying " I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn’t lived that life."
    Because, you know, white people are so busy holding everyone else down that they don't have time to be as naturally talented as any other demographic.

    As someone who *is* white, I can attest to white privilege.

    Sure I have been affected by prejudice because I was born into a poor family in a trailer park.

    The difference is, I can LEAVE that trailer park, cut off my mullet and apply for a job or a loan and the person on the other side see's a white person. 

    The fact of the matter is, you cannot leave the color of your skin.

    THAT is white privilege.  I can CHOOSE the context that I am viewed in.  This is a white dominated country. 

  • jimmyman99jimmyman99 Toronto, ONPosts: 3,221Member
    Originally posted by Khalathwyr

    Originally posted by kalagaraz

    Originally posted by Khalathwyr

    Originally posted by kalagaraz

    Originally posted by jakojako


    Honestly, i don't understand why people get so easily offended (especially over games). Oh someone said nigger, big deal, I hear it in real life more often than i do in any game. Same with gay, retard, and many other "offensive" words.
    Come on, I know according to the article people told you this, but the chat censor is there in EVERY mmo for a reason. Use it if you can't handle what people say. Don't throw a hissy-fit just because someone said a word.

     

    Exactly. You may not like the word, but that doesn't mean you should ban all other people from using it. They probably arn't even using it in the same context as you (as in my example of Gay in my previous post).  Part of playing a MMO (which is global) is the understanding of other peoples cultures and backgrounds. Not forcing yours on them. If people like article writer ran the world we'd still be having holy crusades.

    If you actually understood "other people's cultures"...and knew the shit they had to suffer through with those words...you wouldn't be using them. That understanding you are trying to bring up is a two way street. You want respect, you give respect. I know plenty of places down here in Dallas that you as a 20 y/o white kid, if you said the N word you'd be dead in a matter of seconds. No matter how cool, or down you thought you were.

    Some words still have deep roots in old meanings and despite what you may see on MTV or other television, it's not how the real world works.

     

    I'd be dead because those people are ignorant. Slavery is over, get over it.  It's perfectly acceptable to use the nigger where I live. Black people use to in reference to other black people. White people just it when referring to their black friends, and even black people use it when referring to their white friends. Nigger these days is seemly another word for "Dawg" or "homie" or whatever buddy word you want to replace it with.



    Time for you to enter the real world and grow up.

    And thanks for making my point. You only preach "understanding" when it benefits your point. You don't truly under "Understanding". If you did, you'd understand why some people haven't "gotten over it".

    What you say/use in your group or click of friends doesn't mean it right to use it with people you don't know. If I walked up to you on the street and said "Hey dumbass, what time is it?" I don't think you'd be too happy about it. By the way you're responding here I'm pretty sure you'd want to try to square up on me. Well, I call my friends that all the time, though. So it's ok to call you that out of the blue having never met you, right?

    Anyway, I remember when I was 20. Noone could tell me what to do or see reason, and I'm not going to continue to try that with you. Get some more living under your belt, go up to some random black person you never met and call him that. Then, if you're still around, we can chat later.

    Peace.

    Edit: Oh, and it had nothing to do with slavery, my point that is. There are plenty of people still around who were alive in the 1960s during the Civil Rights movement who clearly remember and have no use for the word. All these black friends that you have...why don't you go over and sit down with one of them's grandparents and ask them how they feel about it. I bet you'd find more than a few that aren't happy with it.

    Well said, Khalathwyr, respect!

     

    @ kalagaraz: You preach of "ignorance", and yet  you think that  things that you do and find those things acceptable must also be acceptable to everyone else... is that not ignorance? I call hypocrite on that one.

     

    I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
    image
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
    imageimage

  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 7,906Member Uncommon

    This is one of the most important articles written on this website.

    Words are much more than mere than "breath in the air". Words offer the means to meaning. And they betray people, much more than they are aware. When someone does not know a word, he does not know the idea. We grasp the world by the words we give things. And never we betray ourselves more in the public as by the bad words and curses we use.

    Often are such views bashed as PC and as censorship of so called freedom. But freedom ends where it harasses people, where it degrades the personal honor and intregrity of another. That is the foundation of every civilization. Without verbal respect, without care in words, there can be no peaceful society, and the internet must not become a morally devoid space, where rules of civilized behavior are null. Otherwise we open the door for barbarism and ethical decay.

     

    We must care for the words we say! It is utterly foolish to claim, a person uses the word "gay" as negative and does NOT have some hate against gay people. Or as it may be with any other similar use of these words. That claims a totally wrong concept of empathy. Every halfway mentally sane person has the ability to feel how calling others in a degrading way hurt them. Everyone can feel that. So it is a lie to claim, that someone uses such words in harrassing ways and is not aware of it. They say "it is common used now". Well, since when is THAT an excuse? If rape or stealing becomes common, does that justify it? It does not take away the individual responsibility of a person A BIT, that someone else is doing that, too.

    The basis of civilization is empathy about when we hurt others with what we do and say. Words have meaning and power. If this were not so, some groups were not so eager to censor them. But forbidding some words is not censorship, it is protection from harassment. While you are free to say what you want, freedom of speech does NOT contain that you can say EVERY word or that you can say it everywhere! When you shout out "BOMB" in an airplane, and cause the disturbance, you can't rely on the freedom of speech! Using bad words as such is always a severe lack of empathy, AT LEAST, usually a revelation of the true character of hate, something which is not the noble civility which we must find, but gross prejudice and hate. Such notions must not be allowed to govern our everyday behavior. Freedom is never limitless, and people are never free from the responsibility of their words and actions. Freedom of result is something unrealistic. Everything you say has a result, and calling people in degrading ways has results, even if they seem to minimal in your life to see it.

    It is just as with environment pollution. Sure, you may say, what difference does the little bit of litter do, which I just cast into the nature? It is so little, it make no difference. It was just one cigarette I threw away. But let it be a dry forest, and an entire region can burn to cinders. Even small words can change the world. The words of Christ were just words, and yet they changed the world. Or the words of the Declaration of Indepence or the Declaration of Humans Rights. All "just words", and yet, they changed the world fundamentally. It is such small things, words, which change the world, and no supposed declaration of freedom of speech can rid us from the results of our words. Words change the world. They are the first small seeds of the future. That is why we must learn to take care in what we say. Even in small, it is something everyone can see. How easy have not many of us ruined a relationship or a friendship, merely by "one wrong word"? Words are no small matter; oh no, my friends. Words are powerful, more powerful than all swords and bombs of the world. And they can cut deeper and more painful than any knife could. It is that empathy towards the suffering of others that you cause by careless words, which a civilized person must nurture.

     

    By and large, the mayority of the society still is racist in it's core. I find that as a fact. People mask that, they behave and pretend to me modern, tolerant people. But in reality, the racism and sexism ("you fight like a girl" Few face the fact how bad such a statement in reality is!) are still part of many people's view. Against Jews, Blacks, Gays and others. For many tolerance is just a thin paper mask they wear, which breaks all to easy when they are aggravated, and then the ugly face of humanity shows. I have become fatalistic about this. Look at this thread. So many people mask their hate and racism with seemingly elegant arguments. With such people, there is no reasoning, no debate. As the Social Scientist Adorno said "you can not argue with Nazis". End of story. They may not be Nazis, but people with racist, sexist or other such prejudices, there is no way to "bring them to reason". The root is hate, and hate can't be argued away, nor will they ever admit it.

    For me as a gay man, I have accepted the fact, that the majority of the especially male ppopulace will ALWAYS hate us. I don't think that will ever change. What remains for me is that word out of "V for Vendetta", which I greatly adore: "I don't understand why they hate us so much." For hate it is, no matter how they want to twist their words into triviality. Civilization is for most a thin layer under which hate and the sheer barbary of violence dwells.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • djFEVAdjFEVA Corvallis, ORPosts: 48Member
    Originally posted by mOoK


    Not suprised that this thread is still going.
    Here is the thing people:
    Some of you are using words that offend people either because you think its cool or accepted or on purpose. 
    You could use other words.
    There are MANY words available in the dictionary with the meaning you're looking for.
    If you continue to use them just to offend or get attention, you're a jerk.

     

    My pennies for thought:

    1) I congratulate Sanya for tackling a sensitive and high disputed topic, and I do believe it's relevent, because it is a part of the game if not also gameplay. I greatly enjoy your articles.

    2) Sanya, please take a chill pill; not everyone thinks of words the way you do, so please don't judge them anymore than they would judge you.

    3) Words do have power. The power is in the context of when it is used; it is in the perception of those whom it is being used against. They can inspire or destroy, and take us on journeys we cannot physically travel.

    4) While we shouldn't hold the history of a word against itself, I think we should be considerate when we do choose to use them. The word nigger is a good example of this. The word is steeped in history of slave owners who held power over black slaves; it was used to tear down at their pride, and meant to break their spirit. However, slavery was abolished, and we are on a track to view all people as human beings. In certain instances, it has become less taboo to say that word. I would simply reiterate, think carefully of when and where you use that word and to whom you are addressing.

    5) The English language, like all languages, is rich in vocabulary with volumes of words. Some of them are more effective in conveying what you want to get across than "charged" words.

    6) My view point on general/guild chat is this: when I see derogatory words used, especially in a incited/hateful context, I shrug off the writer's use of that kind of language. I do admit that it sometimes gets very distracting to read all the smacktalk, so I just minimize chat window then. If it was directed at me, I would try to find the cause for the need to use such words, explain that it is hurtful if I wish to continue any type of further communication with that player, and failing that I would block them and/or report them.

    7) A thought a free speech, amongst a many freedoms we enjoy... The term is meant for having the ability to express ourselves without fear of government. However, as a member of the more evolved species, I care for some consideration in how that's expressed.

    8) Bear in mind that not having visual cues hamper our effectiveness when communicating, since much of our communication is non-verbal (aka tone, body language, and word choice).

    The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevant. It's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are.

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member

    So she writes how she is politically correct, and implies with examples how she doesn't like stereotypes.

     

    Then she proceeds to say that all the people playing MMOs are people "in their basements". And that because someone is a politician they cheat on their wives. Hypocritical much?

     

    But she also said she was playing LotRO. Turbine has generally always been a step above another very popular title on it's chat control. And I think the types of people who are drawn to LotRO tend to have an average maturity level higher then the average maturity level in the other popular title.

     

     

     

    Although there is a reason why the olympics events are broken up by the sex on the individuals, men are physically stronger then woman and that is why their distances times etc are always better then womens. Therefore why the "throws like a girl" phrase is used as an attack against a guy. It isn't a sterotype to say the strongest men are always stronger then the strongest women, it is nature. But apparently she is very offended by this.

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member
    Originally posted by Elikal


    This is one of the most important articles written on this website.
    Words are much more than mere than "breath in the air". Words offer the means to meaning. And they betray people, much more than they are aware. When someone does not know a word, he does not know the idea. We grasp the world by the words we give things. And never we betray ourselves more in the public as by the bad words and curses we use.
    Often are such views bashed as PC and as censorship of so called freedom. But freedom ends where it harasses people, where it degrades the personal honor and intregrity of another. That is the foundation of every civilization. Without verbal respect, without care in words, there can be no peaceful society, and the internet must not become a morally devoid space, where rules of civilized behavior are null. Otherwise we open the door for barbarism and ethical decay.
     
    We must care for the words we say! It is utterly foolish to claim, a person uses the word "gay" as negative and does NOT have some hate against gay people. Or as it may be with any other similar use of these words. That claims a totally wrong concept of empathy. Every halfway mentally sane person has the ability to feel how calling others in a degrading way hurt them. Everyone can feel that. So it is a lie to claim, that someone uses such words in harrassing ways and is not aware of it. They say "it is common used now". Well, since when is THAT an excuse? If rape or stealing becomes common, does that justify it? It does not take away the individual responsibility of a person A BIT, that someone else is doing that, too.
    By and large, the mayority of the society still is racist in it's core. I find that as a fact. People mask that, they behave and pretend to me modern, tolerant people. But in reality, the racism and sexism ("you fight like a girl" Few face the fact how bad such a statement in reality is!) are still part of many people's view. Against Jews, Blacks, Gays and others. For many tolerance is just a thin paper mask they wear, which breaks all to easy when they are aggravated, and then the ugly face of humanity shows. I have become fatalistic about this.
    For me as a gay man, I have accepted the fact, that the majority of the especially male ppopulace will ALWAYS hate us. I don't think that will ever change. What remains for me is that word out of "V for Vendetta", which I greatly adore: "I don't understand why they hate us so much." For hate it is, no matter how they want to twist their words into triviality. Civilization is for most a thin layer under which hate and the sheer barbary of violence dwells.



     

    Sorry you feel that way but for many of us that just simply isn't true.  I don't hate gay people.  Frankly, i don't care what sexual orientation you have.  Not simply because quite frankly it's really none of my business but also simply because what difference does it make to me as to what sex you're attracted to?

    I have three gay friends and I can honestly say none of them are offended by those that use the "gay" term in the context presented initially in this article.  As I said before the one uses the term herself more than anyone else I know personally.  Thankfully, this discussion never comes up with them because they're more than comftorable being around me just as who they are as I am around them.  We talk about everything from relationships to what we think of the latest movie being hyped around town.  I'm not going to sit here and type everyone is that way because we both know that isn't the case but to think the majority of us hetero males hate you or wish you ill just isn't true.  Yes, there are those of us that are assholes.  There are also others of us that  don't care if you're gay or straight and can accept a person for who they are-not who we think they should be.

    People's outlooks and perspectives on issues such as these are changing.  It certainly isn't happening as fast as I would like to see it but there has been change mostly for the better in these areas.  People, in general, would do a lot more to help change the atmosphere more by learning acceptance and understanding across the board rather than rehashing this me vs you mentality.  It does nothing but feed into the vitriol of prejudice that is still allowed to rear its ugly head from time to time.  Trying to say some hate filled person using a slanderous bigoted word is the same as saying a  catchphrase such as  "you throw like a girl", "that's so gay", or "girly man" is ridiculous.  They aren't the same and aren't used in the same connotation.  If you want to continue to think people that use those hate homosexuals or wish them ill then so be it.  Not going to change your mind just realize that, least from everyone I've ever known that says those things, you would be dead wrong.

     About the closest we ever come to being a "bigot" or "showing hatred"  towards each other is when they joke around about me being straight and the crap I have to deal with and I poke fun back at them about being gay and some of the junk they go through.  If that equates to us being uneducated bigots writhing in hatred somehow to some then so be it because we have learned how to have a sense of humor about things and not to assume the worst in everyone.  Nor are we ,thankfully, going to help this bullshit along even more by further pushing this concept people's differences whatever they may be need to have a spotlight shown upon them or treated differently simply because they  have different values, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. That doesn't change things.  It just further retreads a need to categorize people and treat them based solely on some primitive scale that says they need to be treated different or something as silly as the color of one's skin or their nationality should matter when in essence it really shouldn't.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 7,906Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wickedjelly

    Originally posted by Elikal


    This is one of the most important articles written on this website.
    Words are much more than mere than "breath in the air". Words offer the means to meaning. And they betray people, much more than they are aware. When someone does not know a word, he does not know the idea. We grasp the world by the words we give things. And never we betray ourselves more in the public as by the bad words and curses we use.
    Often are such views bashed as PC and as censorship of so called freedom. But freedom ends where it harasses people, where it degrades the personal honor and intregrity of another. That is the foundation of every civilization. Without verbal respect, without care in words, there can be no peaceful society, and the internet must not become a morally devoid space, where rules of civilized behavior are null. Otherwise we open the door for barbarism and ethical decay.
     
    We must care for the words we say! It is utterly foolish to claim, a person uses the word "gay" as negative and does NOT have some hate against gay people. Or as it may be with any other similar use of these words. That claims a totally wrong concept of empathy. Every halfway mentally sane person has the ability to feel how calling others in a degrading way hurt them. Everyone can feel that. So it is a lie to claim, that someone uses such words in harrassing ways and is not aware of it. They say "it is common used now". Well, since when is THAT an excuse? If rape or stealing becomes common, does that justify it? It does not take away the individual responsibility of a person A BIT, that someone else is doing that, too.
    By and large, the mayority of the society still is racist in it's core. I find that as a fact. People mask that, they behave and pretend to me modern, tolerant people. But in reality, the racism and sexism ("you fight like a girl" Few face the fact how bad such a statement in reality is!) are still part of many people's view. Against Jews, Blacks, Gays and others. For many tolerance is just a thin paper mask they wear, which breaks all to easy when they are aggravated, and then the ugly face of humanity shows. I have become fatalistic about this.
    For me as a gay man, I have accepted the fact, that the majority of the especially male ppopulace will ALWAYS hate us. I don't think that will ever change. What remains for me is that word out of "V for Vendetta", which I greatly adore: "I don't understand why they hate us so much." For hate it is, no matter how they want to twist their words into triviality. Civilization is for most a thin layer under which hate and the sheer barbary of violence dwells.



     

    Sorry you feel that way but for many of us that just simply isn't true.  I don't hate gay people.  Frankly, i don't care what sexual orientation you have.  Not simply because quite frankly it's really none of my business but also simply because what difference does it make to me as to what sex you're attracted to?

    I have three gay friends and I can honestly say none of them are offended by those that use the "gay" term in the context presented initially in this article.  As I said before the one uses the term herself more than anyone else I know personally.  Thankfully, this discussion never comes up with them because they're more than comftorable being around me just as who they are as I am around them.  We talk about everything from relationships to what we think of the latest movie being hyped around town.  I'm not going to sit here and type everyone is that way because we both know that isn't the case but to think the majority of us hetero males hate you or wish you ill just isn't true.  Yes, there are those of us that are assholes.  There are also others of us that  don't care if you're gay or straight and can accept a person for who they are-not who we think they should be.

    People's outlooks and perspectives on issues such as these are changing.  It certainly isn't happening as fast as I would like to see it but there has been change mostly for the better in these areas.  People, in general, would do a lot more to help change the atmosphere more by learning acceptance and understanding across the board rather than rehashing this me vs you mentality.  It does nothing but feed into the vitriol of prejudice that is still allowed to rear its ugly head from time to time.  Trying to say some hate filled person using a slanderous bigoted word is the same as saying a  catchphrase such as  "you throw like a girl", "that's so gay", or "girly man" is ridiculous.  They aren't the same and aren't used in the same connotation.  If you want to continue to think people that use those hate homosexuals or wish them ill then so be it.  Not going to change your mind just realize that, least from everyone I've ever known that says those things, you would be dead wrong.

     

     

    People like you won't be educated. I stopped trying long ago. Pity is, you don't even realized the damage you do. Words are the beginning of everything.

    It is why politicians start to call wars "incidents" and death "collateral damage".

    Using bad words about minorities is the beginning of a road whose logical end is Auschwitz - the Concentration Camp. It is like boiling the frog. When you toss a frog into boiling water, he will jump out, but if you warm it gradually, he will stay until his death. Myth or not, this is what happens with the slow loss of empathy and civil behavior, and the internet is ripe with that. A small step, but the first taking away of respect is what opens the door to more. That is why we must fight those first breaks of civility before bigger steps follow. You fight issues when they are yet small.

    That you gay friends dont say to you to find this offensive just proves how victimized gay people are, when they don't even allow themselves to realize their victimization. It is what victims often do. They deny reality and say "it isnt so bad".

    It is YOUR lack of empathy that is the issue here, not their issue to tell you. Maybe you look inside yourself and ask yourself why you and the others are so apparently un-emphatic that you do no longer feel the damage you do to others, even when they say it to you.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member
    Originally posted by ElikaOriginally posted by Wickedjelly

    Originally posted by Elikal


    This is one of the most important articles written on this website.
    Words are much more than mere than "breath in the air". Words offer the means to meaning. And they betray people, much more than they are aware. When someone does not know a word, he does not know the idea. We grasp the world by the words we give things. And never we betray ourselves more in the public as by the bad words and curses we use.
    Often are such views bashed as PC and as censorship of so called freedom. But freedom ends where it harasses people, where it degrades the personal honor and intregrity of another. That is the foundation of every civilization. Without verbal respect, without care in words, there can be no peaceful society, and the internet must not become a morally devoid space, where rules of civilized behavior are null. Otherwise we open the door for barbarism and ethical decay.
     
    We must care for the words we say! It is utterly foolish to claim, a person uses the word "gay" as negative and does NOT have some hate against gay people. Or as it may be with any other similar use of these words. That claims a totally wrong concept of empathy. Every halfway mentally sane person has the ability to feel how calling others in a degrading way hurt them. Everyone can feel that. So it is a lie to claim, that someone uses such words in harrassing ways and is not aware of it. They say "it is common used now". Well, since when is THAT an excuse? If rape or stealing becomes common, does that justify it? It does not take away the individual responsibility of a person A BIT, that someone else is doing that, too.
    By and large, the mayority of the society still is racist in it's core. I find that as a fact. People mask that, they behave and pretend to me modern, tolerant people. But in reality, the racism and sexism ("you fight like a girl" Few face the fact how bad such a statement in reality is!) are still part of many people's view. Against Jews, Blacks, Gays and others. For many tolerance is just a thin paper mask they wear, which breaks all to easy when they are aggravated, and then the ugly face of humanity shows. I have become fatalistic about this.
    For me as a gay man, I have accepted the fact, that the majority of the especially male ppopulace will ALWAYS hate us. I don't think that will ever change. What remains for me is that word out of "V for Vendetta", which I greatly adore: "I don't understand why they hate us so much." For hate it is, no matter how they want to twist their words into triviality. Civilization is for most a thin layer under which hate and the sheer barbary of violence dwells.



     

    Sorry you feel that way but for many of us that just simply isn't true.  I don't hate gay people.  Frankly, i don't care what sexual orientation you have.  Not simply because quite frankly it's really none of my business but also simply because what difference does it make to me as to what sex you're attracted to?

    I have three gay friends and I can honestly say none of them are offended by those that use the "gay" term in the context presented initially in this article.  As I said before the one uses the term herself more than anyone else I know personally.  Thankfully, this discussion never comes up with them because they're more than comftorable being around me just as who they are as I am around them.  We talk about everything from relationships to what we think of the latest movie being hyped around town.  I'm not going to sit here and type everyone is that way because we both know that isn't the case but to think the majority of us hetero males hate you or wish you ill just isn't true.  Yes, there are those of us that are assholes.  There are also others of us that  don't care if you're gay or straight and can accept a person for who they are-not who we think they should be.

    People's outlooks and perspectives on issues such as these are changing.  It certainly isn't happening as fast as I would like to see it but there has been change mostly for the better in these areas.  People, in general, would do a lot more to help change the atmosphere more by learning acceptance and understanding across the board rather than rehashing this me vs you mentality.  It does nothing but feed into the vitriol of prejudice that is still allowed to rear its ugly head from time to time.  Trying to say some hate filled person using a slanderous bigoted word is the same as saying a  catchphrase such as  "you throw like a girl", "that's so gay", or "girly man" is ridiculous.  They aren't the same and aren't used in the same connotation.  If you want to continue to think people that use those hate homosexuals or wish them ill then so be it.  Not going to change your mind just realize that, least from everyone I've ever known that says those things, you would be dead wrong.

     


     
    People like you won't be educated. I stopped trying long ago. Pity is, you don't even realized the damage you do. Words are the beginning of everything.
    It is why politicians start to call wars "incidents" and death "collateral damage".
    Using bad words about minorities is the beginning of a road whose logical end is Auschwitz - the Concentration Camp. It is like boiling the frog. When you toss a frog into boiling water, he will jump out, but if you warm it gradually, he will stay until his death. Myth or not, this is what happens with the slow loss of empathy and civil behavior, and the internet is ripe with that. A small step, but the first taking away of respect is what opens the door to more. That is why we must fight those first breaks of civility before bigger steps follow. You fight issues when they are yet small.
    That you gay friends dont say to you to find this offensive just proves how victimized gay people are, when they don't even allow themselves to realize their victimization. It is what victims often do. They deny reality and say "it isnt so bad".
    It is YOUR lack of empathy that is the issue here, not their issue to tell you. Maybe you look inside yourself and ask yourself why you and the others are so apparently un-emphatic that you do no longer feel the damage you do to others, even when they say it to you.



     

    Right, I don't even use that stupid phrase because it just isn't how I talk.  The reason I know it doesn't bother them is because at times they do.  If anyone is clueless here its you. 

    Feel free to keep stereotyping though and assume I lack empathy for others.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 7,906Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wickedjelly

    Originally posted by ElikaOriginally posted by Wickedjelly

    Originally posted by Elikal


    This is one of the most important articles written on this website.
    Words are much more than mere than "breath in the air". Words offer the means to meaning. And they betray people, much more than they are aware. When someone does not know a word, he does not know the idea. We grasp the world by the words we give things. And never we betray ourselves more in the public as by the bad words and curses we use.
    Often are such views bashed as PC and as censorship of so called freedom. But freedom ends where it harasses people, where it degrades the personal honor and intregrity of another. That is the foundation of every civilization. Without verbal respect, without care in words, there can be no peaceful society, and the internet must not become a morally devoid space, where rules of civilized behavior are null. Otherwise we open the door for barbarism and ethical decay.
     
    We must care for the words we say! It is utterly foolish to claim, a person uses the word "gay" as negative and does NOT have some hate against gay people. Or as it may be with any other similar use of these words. That claims a totally wrong concept of empathy. Every halfway mentally sane person has the ability to feel how calling others in a degrading way hurt them. Everyone can feel that. So it is a lie to claim, that someone uses such words in harrassing ways and is not aware of it. They say "it is common used now". Well, since when is THAT an excuse? If rape or stealing becomes common, does that justify it? It does not take away the individual responsibility of a person A BIT, that someone else is doing that, too.
    By and large, the mayority of the society still is racist in it's core. I find that as a fact. People mask that, they behave and pretend to me modern, tolerant people. But in reality, the racism and sexism ("you fight like a girl" Few face the fact how bad such a statement in reality is!) are still part of many people's view. Against Jews, Blacks, Gays and others. For many tolerance is just a thin paper mask they wear, which breaks all to easy when they are aggravated, and then the ugly face of humanity shows. I have become fatalistic about this.
    For me as a gay man, I have accepted the fact, that the majority of the especially male ppopulace will ALWAYS hate us. I don't think that will ever change. What remains for me is that word out of "V for Vendetta", which I greatly adore: "I don't understand why they hate us so much." For hate it is, no matter how they want to twist their words into triviality. Civilization is for most a thin layer under which hate and the sheer barbary of violence dwells.



     

    Sorry you feel that way but for many of us that just simply isn't true.  I don't hate gay people.  Frankly, i don't care what sexual orientation you have.  Not simply because quite frankly it's really none of my business but also simply because what difference does it make to me as to what sex you're attracted to?

    I have three gay friends and I can honestly say none of them are offended by those that use the "gay" term in the context presented initially in this article.  As I said before the one uses the term herself more than anyone else I know personally.  Thankfully, this discussion never comes up with them because they're more than comftorable being around me just as who they are as I am around them.  We talk about everything from relationships to what we think of the latest movie being hyped around town.  I'm not going to sit here and type everyone is that way because we both know that isn't the case but to think the majority of us hetero males hate you or wish you ill just isn't true.  Yes, there are those of us that are assholes.  There are also others of us that  don't care if you're gay or straight and can accept a person for who they are-not who we think they should be.

    People's outlooks and perspectives on issues such as these are changing.  It certainly isn't happening as fast as I would like to see it but there has been change mostly for the better in these areas.  People, in general, would do a lot more to help change the atmosphere more by learning acceptance and understanding across the board rather than rehashing this me vs you mentality.  It does nothing but feed into the vitriol of prejudice that is still allowed to rear its ugly head from time to time.  Trying to say some hate filled person using a slanderous bigoted word is the same as saying a  catchphrase such as  "you throw like a girl", "that's so gay", or "girly man" is ridiculous.  They aren't the same and aren't used in the same connotation.  If you want to continue to think people that use those hate homosexuals or wish them ill then so be it.  Not going to change your mind just realize that, least from everyone I've ever known that says those things, you would be dead wrong.

     


     
    People like you won't be educated. I stopped trying long ago. Pity is, you don't even realized the damage you do. Words are the beginning of everything.
    It is why politicians start to call wars "incidents" and death "collateral damage".
    Using bad words about minorities is the beginning of a road whose logical end is Auschwitz - the Concentration Camp. It is like boiling the frog. When you toss a frog into boiling water, he will jump out, but if you warm it gradually, he will stay until his death. Myth or not, this is what happens with the slow loss of empathy and civil behavior, and the internet is ripe with that. A small step, but the first taking away of respect is what opens the door to more. That is why we must fight those first breaks of civility before bigger steps follow. You fight issues when they are yet small.
    That you gay friends dont say to you to find this offensive just proves how victimized gay people are, when they don't even allow themselves to realize their victimization. It is what victims often do. They deny reality and say "it isnt so bad".
    It is YOUR lack of empathy that is the issue here, not their issue to tell you. Maybe you look inside yourself and ask yourself why you and the others are so apparently un-emphatic that you do no longer feel the damage you do to others, even when they say it to you.



     

    Right, I don't even use that stupid phrase because it just isn't how I talk.  The reason I know it doesn't bother them is because at times they do.  If anyone is clueless here its you. 

    Feel free to keep stereotyping though and assume I lack empathy for others.

     

    You understand nothing. I can call myself an ass any day, but that doesn't give YOU the right to call me that.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • KordeshKordesh P, NJPosts: 1,715Member

     Better title. "Grammar nazi fishes for problems, finds them." 

    Bans a perma, but so are sigs in necro posts.

    EAT ME MMORPG.com!

  • HjorhrafnHjorhrafn Panama, OKPosts: 14Member

    Twelve pages to invoke Godwin's Law on a topic about freedom of speech/sensitivity.  I'm actually rather impressed. 

    Fortune favors the bold.

  • streeastreea Dallas, TXPosts: 654Member
    Originally posted by Elikal 
    You understand nothing. I can call myself an ass any day, but that doesn't give YOU the right to call me that.

    Sure it does. Just as everyone has the right to use gay and ass and other words, regardless of whether they believe the true, original meaning, or what it's come to mean.

  • TeimanTeiman ZaragozaPosts: 1,319Member

    Is the discussion dead already? 

    Can I talk?  I hate long threads.  I have skipped almost everything is said here, because I have no time to read 99993 post. 

    All I have to say, Is that I have learn something on this thread from the guys that  defend the use of nigger and gay in normal conversations, like in a chat.  And I have learned nothing from the PC (Political Correct) camp 

     

     

  • PiratessPiratess Newburgh, INPosts: 56Member
    Originally posted by Sanya


    My reaction to the person using the n-word was to simply hit ignore. As this thread is demonstrating, anyone using the word in casual conversation cannot be reasoned with or educated, whereas most of the people using 'gay' as an insult can usually be taught better manners. If not, well, the ignore function doesn't expire if you don't use it right away!
    There's just no point in arguing with scum. Ignoring, and on private property such as an MMO server, banning, are the best options if education fails.

     

    Scum?

    You call people scum after you try and dictate what people say in open chat? The only education that people need ( for a game ) is this:

    Learn to use the /ignore button, and learn not to get offended or "victimized" by a word.

    A real journalist needs to be un-bias. You need to be fired.

    PIRATESS
    [Matriarch of Shadow of Apophis]
    image

  • djFEVAdjFEVA Corvallis, ORPosts: 48Member
    Originally posted by Teiman


    Is the discussion dead already? 
    Can I talk?  I hate long threads.  I have skipped almost everything is said here, because I have no time to read 99993 post. 
    All I have to say, Is that I have learn something on this thread from the guys that  defend the use of nigger and gay in normal conversations, like in a chat.  And I have learned nothing from the PC (Political Correct) camp 
     
     

     

    I'd day don't worry about PC camp, because you are not there yet. Let's first worry about reading camp, so you'll actually learn of other people's opinions on the matter, and then attend writing camp, so other people can understand you.

    The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevant. It's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are.

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member
    Originally posted by Elikal


     You understand nothing. I can call myself an ass any day, but that doesn't give YOU the right to call me that.

    ...and you do?If so, you haven't shown it yet.  All you've proven is that regardless of one's orientation or ethnicity is that anyone can be just as likely to stereotype, prejudice, and jump to gross mischaracterizations.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • WarsongWarsong Dallas, TXPosts: 563Member
    Originally posted by Elikal

    Originally posted by Wickedjelly

    Originally posted by Elikal


    This is one of the most important articles written on this website.
    Words are much more than mere than "breath in the air". Words offer the means to meaning. And they betray people, much more than they are aware. When someone does not know a word, he does not know the idea. We grasp the world by the words we give things. And never we betray ourselves more in the public as by the bad words and curses we use.
    Often are such views bashed as PC and as censorship of so called freedom. But freedom ends where it harasses people, where it degrades the personal honor and intregrity of another. That is the foundation of every civilization. Without verbal respect, without care in words, there can be no peaceful society, and the internet must not become a morally devoid space, where rules of civilized behavior are null. Otherwise we open the door for barbarism and ethical decay.
     
    We must care for the words we say! It is utterly foolish to claim, a person uses the word "gay" as negative and does NOT have some hate against gay people. Or as it may be with any other similar use of these words. That claims a totally wrong concept of empathy. Every halfway mentally sane person has the ability to feel how calling others in a degrading way hurt them. Everyone can feel that. So it is a lie to claim, that someone uses such words in harrassing ways and is not aware of it. They say "it is common used now". Well, since when is THAT an excuse? If rape or stealing becomes common, does that justify it? It does not take away the individual responsibility of a person A BIT, that someone else is doing that, too.
    By and large, the mayority of the society still is racist in it's core. I find that as a fact. People mask that, they behave and pretend to me modern, tolerant people. But in reality, the racism and sexism ("you fight like a girl" Few face the fact how bad such a statement in reality is!) are still part of many people's view. Against Jews, Blacks, Gays and others. For many tolerance is just a thin paper mask they wear, which breaks all to easy when they are aggravated, and then the ugly face of humanity shows. I have become fatalistic about this.
    For me as a gay man, I have accepted the fact, that the majority of the especially male ppopulace will ALWAYS hate us. I don't think that will ever change. What remains for me is that word out of "V for Vendetta", which I greatly adore: "I don't understand why they hate us so much." For hate it is, no matter how they want to twist their words into triviality. Civilization is for most a thin layer under which hate and the sheer barbary of violence dwells.



     

    Sorry you feel that way but for many of us that just simply isn't true.  I don't hate gay people.  Frankly, i don't care what sexual orientation you have.  Not simply because quite frankly it's really none of my business but also simply because what difference does it make to me as to what sex you're attracted to?

    I have three gay friends and I can honestly say none of them are offended by those that use the "gay" term in the context presented initially in this article.  As I said before the one uses the term herself more than anyone else I know personally.  Thankfully, this discussion never comes up with them because they're more than comftorable being around me just as who they are as I am around them.  We talk about everything from relationships to what we think of the latest movie being hyped around town.  I'm not going to sit here and type everyone is that way because we both know that isn't the case but to think the majority of us hetero males hate you or wish you ill just isn't true.  Yes, there are those of us that are assholes.  There are also others of us that  don't care if you're gay or straight and can accept a person for who they are-not who we think they should be.

    People's outlooks and perspectives on issues such as these are changing.  It certainly isn't happening as fast as I would like to see it but there has been change mostly for the better in these areas.  People, in general, would do a lot more to help change the atmosphere more by learning acceptance and understanding across the board rather than rehashing this me vs you mentality.  It does nothing but feed into the vitriol of prejudice that is still allowed to rear its ugly head from time to time.  Trying to say some hate filled person using a slanderous bigoted word is the same as saying a  catchphrase such as  "you throw like a girl", "that's so gay", or "girly man" is ridiculous.  They aren't the same and aren't used in the same connotation.  If you want to continue to think people that use those hate homosexuals or wish them ill then so be it.  Not going to change your mind just realize that, least from everyone I've ever known that says those things, you would be dead wrong.

     

     

    People like you won't be educated. I stopped trying long ago. Pity is, you don't even realized the damage you do. Words are the beginning of everything.

    It is why politicians start to call wars "incidents" and death "collateral damage".

    Using bad words about minorities is the beginning of a road whose logical end is Auschwitz - the Concentration Camp. It is like boiling the frog. When you toss a frog into boiling water, he will jump out, but if you warm it gradually, he will stay until his death. Myth or not, this is what happens with the slow loss of empathy and civil behavior, and the internet is ripe with that. A small step, but the first taking away of respect is what opens the door to more. That is why we must fight those first breaks of civility before bigger steps follow. You fight issues when they are yet small.

    That you gay friends dont say to you to find this offensive just proves how victimized gay people are, when they don't even allow themselves to realize their victimization. It is what victims often do. They deny reality and say "it isnt so bad".

    It is YOUR lack of empathy that is the issue here, not their issue to tell you. Maybe you look inside yourself and ask yourself why you and the others are so apparently un-emphatic that you do no longer feel the damage you do to others, even when they say it to you.

    OMFG saying "gay" does not victimize homosexuals, saying "nigger" does not victimize blacks, saying "cracker" does not victimize whites, saying "redskin" does not victimize me....I remember this BS a few years ago when a small movement wanted the name of the Washington Redskins changed because they claimed it to be offensive. I am one of those "Redskins" predominately speaking and I'm not offended. I am emotionally mature and rather zen about the "bla bla bla" of others IE I have a disposition and desire to be happy and not offended by BS.

    Assaulting a homosexual with a broomstick makes him a victim, enslaving a black man makes him a victim, raping a white female makes her a victim and killing an indian makes them a victim.

    I walk down the sidewalk with my wife and someone tells her "nice ass"....some guys would fight over this because they manage their emotions like a child would......But I reply with "why yes it is, thx for noticing" and we are happily on our way rather than in front of a police car having to explain why there is some guy on the ground with a broken nose and ribs. My EMPATHY just saved that guys life.

  • Mariner-80Mariner-80 Winchester, VAPosts: 347Member

    One of the best things about MMOs--WoW, LorRO, etc.--is that you can turn off chat and play in blissful virtual "silence", which is what I do 99.99% of the time.

    It isn't necessarily that the chat is offensive; I just find it very distracting and, yes, occasionally, annoying. The only time I use chat is for Guild Chat and in-party chat. Otherwise, no.

    I keep waiting for Blizzard (or some MMO developer) to offer "silent servers", wherein players can only communicate using in-game emotes -- much the way Horde and Alliance sometimes communicate in WoW now. I would really like that.

    I just find that most in-game (general/OOC) chat is either too inane for words or completely irrelevant to me and thus distracting, so I turn it off. Problem solved.

  • BakgrindBakgrind Austin, TXPosts: 272Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Teiman


    Is the discussion dead already? 
    Can I talk?  I hate long threads.  I have skipped almost everything is said here, because I have no time to read 99993 post. 
    All I have to say, Is that I have learn something on this thread from the guys that  defend the use of nigger and gay in normal conversations, like in a chat.  And I have learned nothing from the PC (Political Correct) camp 
     
     



     

    I myself was going to write some thing along the lines of what you have said. But you said it with four lines that was taking me 2 paragraphs to write :P  Except to say that this thread is full of fail. This reminds me of something I used to hear  as a kid growing up from my mom and dad. If you have nothing better to say, say nothing at all. And in this case create a bad topic that could be loosely defined as personal agenda  for flame bait.  I come here to read and discuss about one thing... Games. Even though the content of the post does take place in games there are mechanics to deal it with. It's called  block or ignore. I think we all know how to use that.

     

     

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