Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
General: MMO Underbelly: Progress In Open Chat?
Dana
Member Posts: 2,415
Today’s edition of the MMO Underbelly focuses on the real dirty side – the way people behave in open chat. Sanya Weathers wonders if it is getting cleaner? Could people really be better behaved on the Internet?
I told this story to a new friend working community for an Asian free to play, expecting shock and awe. She said with a gasp, “Someone actually said the n-word in open chat and thought he’d get away with it?”
No, I didn’t check her driver’s license to see if she was born yesterday, but I wanted to.
Finally, another friend sent me a paraphrased copy of a customer service ticket that had passed through his team. It said, basically, that the customer didn’t need a response or restitution for a bug, because he couldn’t care less about a make-believe item. He just wanted to report the bug.
Are pigs flying? Is hell freezing over? Are politicians about to vote that marriage between setters and pointers is sacred *and* remain faithful to their wives at the same time?
Read it all here.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Comments
You say you get annoyed by people who say things like "Nvidia's Gay" or "Man that's gay" or something similar and I find you to be ignorant for that. If you are a writer, you should know that definitions of words are not set in stone, meanings change through their usage. Gay use to mean happy, then it use to mean being homosexual, now in the generation that I grew up in (I'm 20 now) gay was always used as a word just to mean something that's was lame or stupid. "Man I paid $4000 for that motorcycle and the dang clutch broke the next day", "Awww dude that's gay".
People who want to argue about people's word usage are just being ignorant themselves. People are not required to follow your strict rules for word usage. Based on this article, I'm surprised you don't get upset every time you read a book and see the writer using personification... "The tree whispered to me as I walked by, almost as if it felt my pain. "..."Ahaha trees can't talk! what a ignornant fool!
Now while I personally may not use the N word myself I don't get all upset when I see someone else use it. If you pay attention, you will notice that it is used a lot more commonly even in the real world, not just in anonymous chat. While it may be ironic or anyoxymoron, that cause is due to LESS racism, not more. Black (I say black, because all my black friends in real life hate being called african american. I quote "I'm not from africa! I was born and raised here in america, I am american!") people have always referred to each other like that, but as younger black kids make more white friends their white friends start to use it as well, and it becomes less and less taboo every day.
Well, if you believe MMO gamers are getting better, you more of an optimist than I. And it's not just the gamers as well. I had a trusted friend relay a story to me of a conversation between a Mortal Online Dev and a member of a large guild following that game about some norwegian chocloate balls that were referred to a "N" balls.
Was I shocked? No. Not even when I was told the devs boss was alerted to this and did nothing. I decided, though, that I wouldn't be playing MO from that day on and have since stopped updating the forum here with any news. I'm not naive enough to believe that every dev team doesn't have at least one rascist person on it. But when that person opens their mouth, real or virtual, and it is brought to the attention of their seniors and all that happens is a *shrug*...
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Hah - Kalgaraz is either brillantly trolling the article or brilliantly whiffing on the point. More posts, if they come, should decide which is correct
The explosion of blog and blog-type sites and their posting communities have softened my contempt for MMOG chats, as they are amateur hour compared to some of the real-world boards and chats.
Avatars are people too
Stick around in LotRO chat long enough and you will find some gems of the other sort too...but overall it *is* the most polite and mature community out there; which is why a lot of us prefer it even though the game has some flaws. It's the first time since old EQ/DAoC that I have actually been leaving chat tabs open.
Honestly, i don't understand why people get so easily offended (especially over games). Oh someone said nigger, big deal, I hear it in real life more often than i do in any game. Same with gay, retard, and many other "offensive" words.
Come on, I know according to the article people told you this, but the chat censor is there in EVERY mmo for a reason. Use it if you can't handle what people say. Don't throw a hissy-fit just because someone said a word.
Exactly. You may not like the word, but that doesn't mean you should ban all other people from using it. They probably arn't even using it in the same context as you (as in my example of Gay in my previous post). Part of playing a MMO (which is global) is the understanding of other peoples cultures and backgrounds. Not forcing yours on them. If people like article writer ran the world we'd still be having holy crusades.
I don't agree. Taking a word that began as derogatory and then using it in casual conversation without the associated prejudice does not "desensitize" the word. Intent is important, but perception is everything. If we want to be heard, if we want open communication, then we need to do our best to not use emotionally-charged, derogatory words that could be misconstrued. The examples you're using are poor, because they imply people who know each other well enough to know that poor word choices don't mean they are bad people at heart. I agree with Sanya. Words ARE powerful, and they should be chosen carefully.
Exactly. You may not like the word, but that doesn't mean you should ban all other people from using it. They probably arn't even using it in the same context as you (as in my example of Gay in my previous post). Part of playing a MMO (which is global) is the understanding of other peoples cultures and backgrounds. Not forcing yours on them. If people like article writer ran the world we'd still be having holy crusades.
If you actually understood "other people's cultures"...and knew the shit they had to suffer through with those words...you wouldn't be using them. That understanding you are trying to bring up is a two way street. You want respect, you give respect. I know plenty of places down here in Dallas that you as a 20 y/o white kid, if you said the N word you'd be dead in a matter of seconds. No matter how cool, or down you thought you were.
Some words still have deep roots in old meanings and despite what you may see on MTV or other television, it's not how the real world works.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Exactly. You may not like the word, but that doesn't mean you should ban all other people from using it. They probably arn't even using it in the same context as you (as in my example of Gay in my previous post). Part of playing a MMO (which is global) is the understanding of other peoples cultures and backgrounds. Not forcing yours on them. If people like article writer ran the world we'd still be having holy crusades.
If you actually understood "other people's cultures"...and knew the shit they had to suffer through with those words...you wouldn't be using them. That understanding you are trying to bring up is a two way street. You want respect, you give respect. I know plenty of places down here in Dallas that you as a 20 y/o white kid, if you said the N word you'd be dead in a matter of seconds. No matter how cool, or down you thought you were.
Some words still have deep roots in old meanings and despite what you may see on MTV or other television, it's not how the real world works.
I'd be dead because those people are ignorant. Slavery is over, get over it. It's perfectly acceptable to use the nigger where I live. Black people use to in reference to other black people. White people just it when referring to their black friends, and even black people use it when referring to their white friends. Nigger these days is seemly another word for "Dawg" or "homie" or whatever buddy word you want to replace it with.
Time for you to enter the real world and grow up. Oh and I love that comment "What they had to suffer through" I doubt there is a black person alive today (in the USA at least) that they themselves were ever slaves. The funny thing is I've never seen a black person ever use this argument. It's always a white person making that arguement. Most black people just want to let it go, but there is always some white person who think they are politically correct and being the whole worlds hero by making a big fuss over it and bringing it back into the light.
Exactly. You may not like the word, but that doesn't mean you should ban all other people from using it. They probably arn't even using it in the same context as you (as in my example of Gay in my previous post). Part of playing a MMO (which is global) is the understanding of other peoples cultures and backgrounds. Not forcing yours on them. If people like article writer ran the world we'd still be having holy crusades.
If you actually understood "other people's cultures"...and knew the shit they had to suffer through with those words...you wouldn't be using them. That understanding you are trying to bring up is a two way street. You want respect, you give respect. I know plenty of places down here in Dallas that you as a 20 y/o white kid, if you said the N word you'd be dead in a matter of seconds. No matter how cool, or down you thought you were.
Some words still have deep roots in old meanings and despite what you may see on MTV or other television, it's not how the real world works.
I'd be dead because those people are ignorant. Slavery is over, get over it. It's perfectly acceptable to use the nigger where I live. Black people use to in reference to other black people. White people just it when referring to their black friends, and even black people use it when referring to their white friends. Nigger these days is seemly another word for "Dawg" or "homie" or whatever buddy word you want to replace it with.
Time for you to enter the real world and grow up.
And thanks for making my point. You only preach "understanding" when it benefits your point. You don't truly under "Understanding". If you did, you'd understand why some people haven't "gotten over it".
What you say/use in your group or click of friends doesn't mean it right to use it with people you don't know. If I walked up to you on the street and said "Hey dumbass, what time is it?" I don't think you'd be too happy about it. By the way you're responding here I'm pretty sure you'd want to try to square up on me. Well, I call my friends that all the time, though. So it's ok to call you that out of the blue having never met you, right?
Anyway, I remember when I was 20. Noone could tell me what to do or see reason, and I'm not going to continue to try that with you. Get some more living under your belt, go up to some random black person you never met and call him that. Then, if you're still around, we can chat later.
Peace.
Edit: Oh, and it had nothing to do with slavery, my point that is. There are plenty of people still around who were alive in the 1960s during the Civil Rights movement who clearly remember and have no use for the word. All these black friends that you have...why don't you go over and sit down with one of them's grandparents and ask them how they feel about it. I bet you'd find more than a few that aren't happy with it.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Exactly. You may not like the word, but that doesn't mean you should ban all other people from using it. They probably arn't even using it in the same context as you (as in my example of Gay in my previous post). Part of playing a MMO (which is global) is the understanding of other peoples cultures and backgrounds. Not forcing yours on them. If people like article writer ran the world we'd still be having holy crusades.
If you actually understood "other people's cultures"...and knew the shit they had to suffer through with those words...you wouldn't be using them. That understanding you are trying to bring up is a two way street. You want respect, you give respect. I know plenty of places down here in Dallas that you as a 20 y/o white kid, if you said the N word you'd be dead in a matter of seconds. No matter how cool, or down you thought you were.
Some words still have deep roots in old meanings and despite what you may see on MTV or other television, it's not how the real world works.
I'd be dead because those people are ignorant. Slavery is over, get over it. It's perfectly acceptable to use the nigger where I live. Black people use to in reference to other black people. White people just it when referring to their black friends, and even black people use it when referring to their white friends. Nigger these days is seemly another word for "Dawg" or "homie" or whatever buddy word you want to replace it with.
Time for you to enter the real world and grow up.
And thanks for making my point. You only preach "understanding" when it benefits your point. You don't truly under "Understanding". If you did, you'd understand why some people haven't "gotten over it".
What you say/use in your group or click of friends doesn't mean it right to use it with people you don't know. If I walked up to you on the street and said "Hey dumbass, what time is it?" I don't think you'd be too happy about it. By the way you're responding here I'm pretty sure you'd want to try to square up on me. Well, I call my friends that all the time, though. So it's ok to call you that out of the blue having never met you, right?
Anyway, I remember when I was 20. Noone could tell me what to do or see reason, and I'm not going to continue to try that with you. Get some more living under your belt, go up to some random black person you never met and call him that. Then, if you're still around, we can chat later.
Peace.
If you walked up to me and said wasup dumbass, I'd probally just ignore it and be like "wasup". I'm not going to make some big deal about it. I hate people like you that always wants to taken offense to shit and start a big argument over nothing. That's why we have so much violence in the world today. It's not like being called a dumbass is going to ruin my day or make my life any less enjoyable.
"go up to some random black person you never met and call him that. Then, if you're still around, we can chat later."
Right, when someone walks up to me and calls me a dumbass, it's going to ruin my life so much that I'm going to pull out a glock 9 and "cap yo ass" (it that the correct slang way of saying it these days?).
Exactly. You may not like the word, but that doesn't mean you should ban all other people from using it. They probably arn't even using it in the same context as you (as in my example of Gay in my previous post). Part of playing a MMO (which is global) is the understanding of other peoples cultures and backgrounds. Not forcing yours on them. If people like article writer ran the world we'd still be having holy crusades.
If you actually understood "other people's cultures"...and knew the shit they had to suffer through with those words...you wouldn't be using them. That understanding you are trying to bring up is a two way street. You want respect, you give respect. I know plenty of places down here in Dallas that you as a 20 y/o white kid, if you said the N word you'd be dead in a matter of seconds. No matter how cool, or down you thought you were.
Some words still have deep roots in old meanings and despite what you may see on MTV or other television, it's not how the real world works.
I'd be dead because those people are ignorant. Slavery is over, get over it. It's perfectly acceptable to use the nigger where I live. Black people use to in reference to other black people. White people just it when referring to their black friends, and even black people use it when referring to their white friends. Nigger these days is seemly another word for "Dawg" or "homie" or whatever buddy word you want to replace it with.
Time for you to enter the real world and grow up.
And thanks for making my point. You only preach "understanding" when it benefits your point. You don't truly under "Understanding". If you did, you'd understand why some people haven't "gotten over it".
What you say/use in your group or click of friends doesn't mean it right to use it with people you don't know. If I walked up to you on the street and said "Hey dumbass, what time is it?" I don't think you'd be too happy about it. By the way you're responding here I'm pretty sure you'd want to try to square up on me. Well, I call my friends that all the time, though. So it's ok to call you that out of the blue having never met you, right?
Anyway, I remember when I was 20. Noone could tell me what to do or see reason, and I'm not going to continue to try that with you. Get some more living under your belt, go up to some random black person you never met and call him that. Then, if you're still around, we can chat later.
Peace.
If you walked up to me and said wasup dumbass, I'd probally just ignore it and be like "wasup". I'm not going to make some big deal about it. I hate people like you that always wants to taken offense to shit and start a big argument over nothing. That's why we have so much violence in the world today. It's not like being called a dumbass is going to ruin my day or make my life any less enjoyable.
Well, if that's how you are, then good for you. But you need to realize that many more people aren't. And with that realization you should appreciate that it does noone any good to keep "pressing buttons" by saying such things.
Your assumption about me "taken offense" is off, but believe what you want. 8 years in the army pretty much left me without a politically correct filter on my mouth but I haven't lost the one in my mind. Talking in that manner around your friends is your business, sure. But talking in that manner in public is irresponsible at best, life threatening at worst.
You can continue to hate me bro, mistakeningly thinking I'm trying to "keep you down" or "repress your freedom of speech". I don't hate you, though. I just don't want to hear about you on the evening news.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Very well put so I'll add a little more perspective to this mental health lesson......
I can say/write “bla bla bla” anyone can decide to be offended by it. And while some can reply with “well if it's a commonly known offensive statement then it's acceptable, therefore it's right” I can and will disagree. In real life if what someone says leading to another hurting or killing them over it, it still is perfectly safe for someone to exercise freedom of speech and opinion and not safe to hurt or kill. On that note I argue that you try to control what is truly harmful and what is not....and do not confuse the two lest we live less and less with freedoms we can “live” with.
Now as far as the Internet goes I believe it should have a freedom to express what people want...computers have an on and off switch and everyones disposal, moderators can mod there own property etc.. Having a freedom to express is not a “wrong” thing, sure it “can” be distasteful but that remains a matter of perception and we all know there are/can be billions of different ones. The line should be at stopping what is really harmful (and that's in a physical realm) for in the mental arena harming others is actually impossible for others to do. If someone (Bob) is mentally harmed by what someone states then “Bob” should maybe spend some time in reflection or time on someones couch rather than pointing a finger and claiming “they” made me feel this way...which is one of the biggest cop outs in this day and age.
Arguing that because something is common or a common practice/belief can be rebutted with, it was once a common belief that the world was flat..but we were wrong..OR..It was once common to think that the earth was the center of the universe..but we were wrong... In our history people have been killed for stating fact that challenged common or “popular belief”.....I for one prefer fact over fiction in this case.
And now to as this relates to a game chat system???? isn't there an ignore option???? Ya...it really is that simple.
PIRATE LORDS
For my own part, while I do not believe in restriction of free speech, I do believe in good taste and common courtesy. Use of the "n" word shows neither, in my opinion.
Still, I have the ability and the option - which I frequently exercise - to utilize the /ignore command. This command is the least used, most overlooked blessing in any type of internet chat (as is "mute" in ventrilo). If what I read or hear offends me (and the use of slurs and epithets does offend me personally), then I have the freedom to choose not to read or hear it.
Voltaire said two things that I believe apply here:
1) Men are equal; it is not birth but virtue that makes the difference.
and
2) I disapprove of what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it. (I just am probably hoping that you are foolish enough to say it in front of someone who will take the opportunity to reveal your bigotry to you in a very tangible - and possibly physical - way ;P )
Firebrand Art
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
My reaction to the person using the n-word was to simply hit ignore. As this thread is demonstrating, anyone using the word in casual conversation cannot be reasoned with or educated, whereas most of the people using 'gay' as an insult can usually be taught better manners. If not, well, the ignore function doesn't expire if you don't use it right away!
There's just no point in arguing with scum. Ignoring, and on private property such as an MMO server, banning, are the best options if education fails.
Sanya M. Weathers
Director of Community
Undead Labs
The only way words have power over you are if you allow those words to have that power.
Welcome to the 21st century, there's more to worry about than someone using a word beginning with an "n".
Cut the 'politically correct" crap, grow some balls ( or the female equivelant ), and grow up.
By the way, don't put Don Imus picture in your article as some sort of "example" of bigoted people ( I'm assuming this was the reason you put it there, I seen no other reason ). Because he's white and called some black girls "nappy headed hoes" is somehow reprehensible and demeaning to black people. Yet, I don't see the good Reverend Sharpton going after NWA ( Niggers With Attitude ). Everybody needs to cut the racial bullshit and get on with life. You know what my father told me when I was young? A "nigger" is not a race, it's a personality. Anyone can be a "nigger", whether they are white, black, yellow, purple, or green.
Everybody nowadays just looks for an excuse to scream "racism". Once people stop looking for it, they'll see alot less of it.
I can say anything i want. censors are there to protect, cant handle it, use em.
BubbaING Bubba LICKING Bubba SUCKING Bubba LOVING Bubba Bubba BubbaFINGERING SODOMITES!
See, that cant offend anyone. If it does, its you that has a dirty mind.
Given the evolution of body and mind yesterdays education sometimes is not tomorrows education. And yes arguing with "scum" is sometimes/often pointless but arguing with ignorance is always pointless. Sometimes intelligence needs time to mature, and sometimes someones opinion of what they currently believe to be mature is not intelligent.
We have entered an arena of the moral theory with this thread it seems.
Sanya, your MMO title reads MMORPG.com Columnist and your bio reads "11 year old female"?? is this acurate?? out of curiosity.
PIRATE LORDS
"...he lost his temper for a second and snapped, “Nvidia is gay.”
That sort of thing just irritates me no end. Yes, in many ways I am politically correct, and no, I’m not ashamed of it. See, I write for a living. Words have meaning to me. When you say someone who is physically weak “throws like a girl,” that you got a good bargain by “Jewing the seller down,” and that something contemptible is “gay,” your speech reflects at best the result of a sick, bigoted culture. At worst your speech is saying you are sick and bigoted."
I write for a living, too. Words have meaning to me, as well. However, I haven't gotten my panties in a bunch because a certain group of people decided 'gay' - a word that was commonly used in song and poetry to mean very happy - should now mean 'homosexual'. Your double standard is fascinating.
It's sick and bigoted to say someone throws like a girl? Girls don't normally throw stuff, let alone practice throwing, so most of them don't throw well. Or that's completely untrue and I am a sick bigot for daring to suggest that is the case?
And that "throws like a girl" is on the same level as ethnic slurs indicates that you might be just a bit too sensitive, Sanya.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I'm surprised that someone who writes for a living managed to lose the point of such sayings. You DID quote it, but perhaps didn't understand. At BEST it reflects the RESULT of a sick, bigoted culture. Your flippant use of the phrase "throws like a girl" does not immediately indicate you are a bigot or that you toss the N word out haphazardly. What it DOES indicate is that you have become culturally numb to the fact that phrase you are using to insult some guy, or have a laugh at his expense, involves the female gender to give it its punchline. Yes, women probably, on average, tend to throw worse than men. Okay? So what? That somehow gives you license to use an above average statistic to belittle a man and those innocent, genetically normal women who weren't physically blessed with a good throwing arm, as well? Psh... okay... I hope you're a better writer than you are a rationalizer.
Delatur, so you are saying that you've actually met a woman other than the author of the article who has found the phrase "throws like a girl" offensive?
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
lol I think I just saw a pig fly or was that the lure on the end of your line!
Thank you for this article. It's nice to know there are people out there with enough wisdom to understand that what they say can have an impact on others.
To the rest of you, stay ignorant, avoid complication and above all remember; your opinion is the only one that matters.
Great article Sanya. But you really should have expected this sort of response from what I assume are predominately straight, white, males. Having never been disenfranchised, they have no understanding of how derogatory words belittle and disempower others. It is a way to keep the minorities " in their place". But they will never see it this way. They will claim freedom of speech, not seeing that just because you CAN say something, doesn't mean you SHOULD say it. Words are communication, especially in the absence of visual cues. A little sensitivty to others' feelings won't hurt you.
I have to say, you have all proven Sanya's conclusiont that her recent experience was the exception, not the rule.
Word. There is for sure lack of empathy from their side.
Long Story
In language, context is everything.
However, if you are white and live in a western society, you have always had the choice of which context you wish to be viewed in.
Set aside that you and your social circle are not affected by bogotry or racism. Set aside that you have multi racial friends and family. It doesn't matter.
If you are white, chances are you never realize the leg up that you have simply by walking into a job interview and being a certain color. It doesn't matter that lived in a 20' foot trailer with my partents for years under the poverty line. I still had it easy in comparison simply because I am caucasion in the USA.
As such I will only have a glimpse of the deep seated, unconcious racism that permiates even the most forward thinking of western society's institutions, let alone the blantant overt bigotry that is alive and well, but moved to the anonymous internet.
So context being everything, if you are white, remember you have had the choice all along. The context of these words is forced upon others, regardless of what you mean by them.