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I think its time for this MMOGamer to throw in the towel
Rekindle
Member UncommonPosts: 1,206
You can have my stuff from:
UO,
EQ,
DAOC,
EQ2,
Eve,
Wow,
Ryzom,
Vanguard,
Darkfall
because I think I'm giving up on this Genre for the foreseeable future. As I write this I'm asking myself: Why am I bothering to write this.....and ultimately its for my own closure. I have no expectations from this community. However, I must say that I have enjoyed , and proabably will continue to enjoy, the threads on mmorpg.com. I came here from EQ2's failure to rekindle the cooler aspects of Eq1.....as I watched Vanguard go from pre alpha to where it is today (I still say Vanguard is a better sequel to Eq1 than EQ2 and you should play Vanguard if you like old EQ......its not perfect but its the best out there imho).
This genre started out as an extension of PnP DnD with THACOs and AC's and dungeons. Some of my most memorable experiences in an mmo come from Dungeon Shame, Dungeon Deceit, Mistmoore Castle, The Estate of Unrest, and one of my favs ever - The Tower of Frozen Shadow.
Back then it was all about freedom. I could go to these places and risk death and the reward was exploration. I remember how emmersive it was to be in the basement of unrest and hearing the footsteps of the ghouls on the floor above. I remember the being charmed in TOFS and running around training the mobs and feeling something from the experience. I for one thought the Pok books were really, really cool. I was a relative latecomer to EQ1 but having those books where I could "fly" up to EQ's version of Olympus and then re-decend back down to material planes.....and The Grey....what a place. Despite the name I rarely did quests in EQ and UO had none back in the day. Task driven content is something new and something many of you seem to enjoy. I for one hate being dragged by the nose around the world.
I'm a pretty smart guy and I have done some analysis as to why the current crop of mmos do nothing to rekindle the feelings of old. Its actaully a complex answer that is not attributed to a single factor. However, I am able to summarize why this genre fails me in 2009.
-The commercialization of MMO's has turned out to be horrible for the genre.....period. These mmos are obviously a business and their aims are to attract as many players as possible. The problem is my gaming style is obsolete. I don 't do vent, I don't have time to group for the entireity of my gaming session to enjoy the best the game has to offer. I need to go afk to change the Dora DVD or make sure my kid has his homework done right or whatever. This genre appeals to a younger crowd or to men /boys who dont have / bother with / family responsibilities. (Sorry females no offense but you are clearly the minority). I enjoy text chatting and I am capable of reading it in all forms. I HATE hearing a lvl 50 Warrior sound like a kid who hasn't hit puberty yet.....sorry.
- The Rosetta stone of MMO gaming that has made WoW so much money is something all developers now follow. The very fact there is a model is part of the creative problem. Every game has a con system that lets you see if a mob is suposed to be group or solo. Every mmo has task driven drivel for the solo gamer and all "dungeon content" is geared towards groups. I can't tell you how many times I headed to SolB to do my own thing and then encounter other lone wolfs doing the same. This used to be HOW i met new people in game. Now you do not even set foot in the dungeon without having your Healer/DPS/Tank combo set up.
-The mmorpg lingo discuists me. I hate how every cliche phrase that originates from wow enters into mainstream internet lingo. It makes me puke a little bit each time when I see the stupid trendy catch phrases appear all over the place. I have always been the type of person that does NOT watch MTV, or CNN and popular cutlure generally makes me ill. I now have more fun watching Carl Sagan DVD's then I do reading Barrens Chat....by a factor of a gooelplex.
-I don't seem to share the same opinions as many of you, clearly. Look at WoW and the other AAA or even AA titles out there. This genre and I have grown apart because I do not seem to fit into the defacto status quo. So rather then look for games that meet my partially meet my interests I think I'm just going to give up outright, I'm done chasing the rainbow of the next big release. I have never really ever had any problems balancing my real life responsibilities with my gaming recreation (except maybe in the very beginning). So I don't consider myself a problem gamer but since this genre fails to entertain me its time to find something else do to like model airplanes or something.
-I'm tired. I'm tired of being told that what I want is the 'first kiss' cliches. Its simply untrue. What I want is a massive multiplayer onling ROLEPLAYING game where there is some semblance of dnd style extra world feel. The words themepark and sandbox are both misnomers and have lead us all astray. So, to all of you cool folks on the forums best of luck I hope you enjoy your games. To all you self centered, egotistical, narrow minded morons....thanks for being entertaining with your total lack of intelligence.
- There used to be a unique relationship between monlthy subscriber and the devleoper because tehy knew that in order to keep you paying your monthly fee they had to give you something special. Look at Adventurine as an example for how thats being handled now. Your time doesn't mean jack shit to these assholes....remember that. They don't care about you or your time or your experience.
-The lack of creativitiy and innovation (go look up the word innovation) is solely on the backs of developers and publishers (as a collective). They choose to continue to develop C++ applications built on a template rather then trying something new.
- I hate the cliche pvp crowd. I believe they are a conceputal extension of competitive players but anonymous and unaccountable. In hockey you got the penality box, in Basketball you got fouls. I do not think that pvp has a place necessairly in MY definiion of a MMORPG because human beings tend to do things in games for no other reason other then can and developers have failed to balance this since long term murder counts. Some people just really enjoy being assholes because they need to make up for some other shortcoming in their life. They are always the ones griefing the character template DESIGNED to be fodder and are always the ones denying it. The modern notion of pvp will always overshadows any "honest" pvp battle.
Now that i have done that I guess I feel better.
If i have any advice to anyone who may be less experienced than I in this genre my final bit of advice to you is: dont settle and dont pay developers to rip you off. If you do find a game and a style that you like, support it.
Never buy a game without a trial. Never buy a game without a trial. Never buy a game without a trial.
Camp check, Train to zone ,Fly safe, GG , fade to black......at least for now, lfg no more.
Comments
So basically WoW is the root of all MMO evil.
Can't say I agree. But good luck on your mmo-less vacation however long it may be.
May I point out you say you've never had a problem managing your gaming with your real life, except in the very beginning.... That is true to the majority of WoW or any mmo player as well except for a smaller few. The smaller few is bigger now because the genre is mainstream. It's always an adjustment period when things get way popular, you're no longer in your niche and things don't feel the same. Does this mean the genre dies? No, it changes it adapts and before you know it the old stuff you used to love comes back either the same or some other version. It's the same for music or anything that people love in entertainment.
(,,,)=^__^=(,,,)
Someone with basic logic training will find flaws in this but:
A = Wow
B= main Stream
C = me
A = B <> c
Popular culture ruined this genre.
While I may not be an old school EQ / UO MMO player, I do feel a bit of the same with how WoW has taken a game and treated it like a business which has killed a majority of the fun of the game. I realize that they are a business and need to make money, but you don't have to beat the game to death to get the mindless zombies to join the game. All they need to do is make the game as good as it was at release and people would just play.
All your MMOs are belong to me.
I added stuff, but yes you liked being a snowflake, or in a category of snowflakes.
(,,,)=^__^=(,,,)
I feel your pain.
I few points about your post:
You state that you really enjoyed EQ which you were almost always required to group to survive and gain xp.
You then complain about having to group to enjoy the 'the best the game has to offer" in the current MMO model???
I will agree with you on the immaturity level of the more popular games (WOW, Warhammer,etc) and the inherent evil of humans in PVP FFA type games (Darkfall).
If you want to try a great MMO with a great storyline, mature gamers and updates/new content every three months I highly recommend Lord of the Rings Online.
MMO Played-EQ, EQ2, WOW, DDO, GW, COH, Vanguard, WAR
MMOs Playing-LOTRO
eq did not force you to group. The newer content like in pop did but there were PLENTY of places to bang off levels solo. You had many more options back then. Now its quest grind kill x fedex bs solo or group up to do the real content.
there's no comparison imo.
I'll agree, the mainstreaming of MMO's and modern technology (voice coms) has dramatically changed the MMORPG gaming experience. The thing is, OP didn't change.
I understand this, I miss the challenge (ok, call them timesinks) that the older games had at times, but then again, not having to rest for 2-3 minutes after a strong fight has a certain appeal to it which is why most games take this path now.
Sure, during that downtime we used to do other things, chat with our group mates, read a book, level another character, but I'm not sure I'd really appreciate those "features" in a game anymore. Why do I say this? Because those features are still available in the older games, and just like the OP, I'm not playing them.
Sure, OP can say thats because no one else is there, but we know that's not true. You can still play EQ 1 and find many other folks playing, so OP could go back if he wanted to. But he doesn't want to.
He wants a new game built after the old model, (so do I ) but realistically, not likely to happen, nor would many players accept it if it did. (much criticism was directed at VG because they incorportated old school concepts like death penalties, corpse runs and long travel times)
Face it, most of us who've been playing these games have come to appreciate some of the modern conveniences, and we're not likely to go back.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
funny how my wife, cousin, and i were having the same conversation. We have been avid MMO gamers and have really loved this genre but the truth is, MMOs are dying from lack of creativity, and lack of development. Its evolution has gone the wrong way. Of course the same things that worked in the beginning of MMOs arent as fun anymore now, otherwise there would be no need to change the style of play, but thats where they have gone wrong, there directions.
In an effort to appeal to the masses and sub racing, the devs have been putting out alot of content that a. have been very simple, not very dynamic, and easy to complete.
the next part is also something the OP stated. Its the templating. Everyone has the group quests in the dungeons. everyone has raiding. everyone has the fed ex missions. No one is even trying to reinvent the core of MMO systems. Thats the big problem. There should have been a reinvention a long time ago, we are at least 2 years overdue on that. Instead they have focused on making the same wheels look better with more dynamic raids, real time combat, more in depth story lines to solo quests, endgame sand boxing( guild city building and sieging), graphics and more pvp concepts. While these are good. they can only take you but so far.
basically it is time for a dev team to reinvent the wheel.
I also have been on a serious hiatus from MMo's for the past 4 months now.
Overall I tend to agree with the message the OP is trying to convey. I think I can relate in terms of getting older and tastes changing. I'm in my 40's now with lots of family commitments and work related time requirements just don't afford me the time needed to really dedicated myself to the genre. I just don't feel that excited about new titles hitting the market or being proposed. To me if feels like deja vu, wash, rinse and repeat. I am certainly not blaming it on the genre just more to developing other interests and not motivated. I don't even find myself playing/interesting in stand alone games much anymore.
I think some of us long for the older days of the genre when the first experience was everlasting. Now when anything new arrives on the market it just doesn't hold up to the individual standard. This isn't true for everyone and not implied as such. Just trying to convey the similar feelings as the OP.
So...i get ganked a lot in Darkfall.......what stuff do you have?
But seriously, i also belive im in the last mmos i will ever play right now. Cant see myself play mmos if in a year or two if DF was the only game i could like, from hundreds to choose from.
--
Exactly it's perception. Back in my days syndrome imo. Things change and you find you don't feel like you belong anymore. This isn't true just for games but for anything that you've been involved in for a long time that suddenly undergoes an evolution.
Growing pains guys, it's not always pretty but surely it's not all ugly either. We're in the early teens of mmos I think and we're bound to be gangly for a few more years yet before the genre fills in more and we start to see roleplay elements take more of a forefront. Right now it's been mostly about refining mechanics, it would be nice to go beyond that.
(,,,)=^__^=(,,,)
Apart from the family commitments part, I am the same. None of the new games are significantly different to the old ones. The leveling format (quests, etc) and end game content is the same. To the poster who suggested LotRO, I tried it but didn't find it significantly different to the other MMOs out there... sure it's has a great IP and a mature community but it's still the same format as the others with little else to do that seperates it from WoW and EQ2.
We need inovation, and like the OP I'm currently looking for something to do outside of gaming, until it appears.
Apart from the family commitments part, I am the same. None of the new games are significantly different to the old ones. The leveling format (quests, etc) and end game content is the same. To the poster who suggested LotRO, I tried it but didn't find it significantly different to the other MMOs out there... sure it's has a great IP and a mature community but it's still the same format as the others with little else to do that seperates it from WoW and EQ2.
We need inovation, and like the OP I'm currently looking for something to do outside of gaming, until it appears.
I also tend to concur. Also in my 40's, it seems all the "new" MMOS are just regurgitating the same ideas. Of course a lot of this must be, but we need some real new ideas to freshen things up a bit. I am looking forward to how Star Wars TOC and Guild Wars 2 are. If they choke and remain largely the same old same old, then I will probably go back to my traditional RPGs and Strategy games I used to love before MMOS. There is a saying that once you experience a thing you build up a tolerance to it and require more to gain the same feeling. It is possible us old timers are just unable to find that first love experience, and that like anything in life, you simply cannot be satisfied with it anymore. I hope it has not come to that for us posting here, but only time will tell...
The best thing that could happen to the MMO industry, is for almost everyone to follow the OPs example, and walk away.
The genre has been killing itself with piss poor games for far too long now.Games that hang on by the skin of your teeth, and hence allow the same devs to turn out the same crap time after time.
The industry and genre needs a rebirth.And that wont happen til the industry gets the purging it needs.
I agree with the OP. I am only 26 but I started MMO gaming back in EQ in 1999. I enjoyed my time in EQ1 and since then have been game hopping trying to find another game that I enjoy like I did EQ.
I am sick of hearing that EQ forced you to group, that simply is not true, sure grouping was a major part of the game but people could solo just fine. Sure some classes were better at soloing then others but so what?
I am sick of doing pointless quests, I am done with quest grinding games. I tried WAR and I quit playing over a month ago, got sick of questings so I decided to level only on PvP but it is nothing but a zerg fest and that got boring. Now I don't play any MMOs.
I have hope for a few MMo games but not holding my breath. I just want a developer to make a game for us old school gamers that want to feel apart of the world again. That want to feel they earned what they got. I want a game that makes me use my brain again.
These new games hold your hand from start to finish, they never make you think.
Sooner or Later
I played EQ1 with the first expansion up to level 26 and found the camp-grinding to be the only way to level in a decent period of time to be a pain.
I left EQ in ealy 2001 and did not play a MMO until WOW in 2006. I found the quest-grind to be enjoyable along with the gameplay and seamless world.
Now I have moved on to LOTRO which is even more enjoyable than WOW IMHO.
MMO Played-EQ, EQ2, WOW, DDO, GW, COH, Vanguard, WAR
MMOs Playing-LOTRO
Exactly it's perception. Back in my days syndrome imo. Things change and you find you don't feel like you belong anymore. This isn't true just for games but for anything that you've been involved in for a long time that suddenly undergoes an evolution.
Growing pains guys, it's not always pretty but surely it's not all ugly either. We're in the early teens of mmos I think and we're bound to be gangly for a few more years yet before the genre fills in more and we start to see roleplay elements take more of a forefront. Right now it's been mostly about refining mechanics, it would be nice to go beyond that.
I still remember the game Marathon as having the greatest graphics I have ever seen. What's more in my mind it still does. Despite having revisited the game since then and truly seeing how bad the graphics are compared to today's standard, I still find my memories of the game having superior graphics to recently released games like Gears of War II or Halo 3. Nostolgia is a very powerful force, and when you really enjoy something it's quite possible you're never going to enjoy something that much again, even if you do the exact same thing that created the memory. For instance, the Marathon of my mind will always be better than the actual game Marathon, despite the fact that common sense says they should be the same.
Completely agree with ya OP. I started UO back in 98 then did some SWG for about a year. I haven't really found a MMO I really enjoyed since those two. But both games have been changed so drastically over the years...they are no longer the games I enjoyed back then. And I have yet to find a MMO that offers the same things that those two games did. Most current MMOs have been simplified...dumbed down from the original MMOs.
I keep trying the new MMOs....that I feel always fall short in some aspect or another. But I haven't really settled down in a game for more than a few months since '05. I have been figuring...rather than looking for the game that has all the aspects I loved about UO n SWG...I will be forced to lower my expectations of what a MMO should be. And accept them as just a way for devs to try n make as much money as possible...while spending as little time caring what the community would like to see. Just follow the WoW model and the money will pour in.
But OP, hang in there. Tho I can't recommend any of the current titles, or even most of the future titles. I feel that once companies realize they can't beat WoW, but can at least run a decent business with smaller numbers...we will see new innovative MMOs.
While I am not a big fan of DF, I hope it pulls threw. Cause I feel if it does, it marks the beginning of a small company that can make a MMO work, without following the WoW model. Thus allowing other small companies to come with new ideas and innovations, that the bigger MMO companies will copy in time.
I don't have as much fun playing MMO's as I did years ago but the alternative is unthinkable!
Watching TV like a slug is out of the question. I've read thousands of books and even that gets boring after doing it for 30 years for entertainment.
And living in Upstate NY where we have crappy weather 8 months of year guarantees you are stuck inside the house.
I will always play MMO's just for those reasons. A mediocre night of gaming is a million times better than a crappy night watching TV. At least my brain cells are functioning when I'm gaming and my mind is busy.
See I do not feel like I am using my brain in the new MMOs, atleast not like I did playing EQ.
Sooner or Later
Father of 4 here, though not yet 40. I understand the responsibility part, and at times I've felt the genre has "failed". Ultimately I think the key is to follow good things in the genre (as much as possible) -- if nothing else, for the younger ones that want to grow up and play someday....or today. Your predecessors have much to gain from your experience. It is your choice alone where to place that experience. And you got kids >> 0.0. Kids looooove games. Sounds like as good of a reason as any to play some and have fun in the future.
GL OP
I can fully relate to this post. I am in my mid 40's and have been an avid gamer since early PnP-D&D (when it was considered occultish). From there I moved to pre-internet, pre-WWW, MUD's on BBS boards (we are talking a long time ago). Form that point it was Archmage and Meridian 59 to UO to EQ and down the line. Nothing in the this genre satisfies me anymore. I am tired of level and quest grinds and the same old rehashed garbage templates.
Furthermore, all these years of MMO gaming has somehow ruined my single player RPG experience as I feel they (single player RPG's) are lacking in the amount of depth that MMO's had originated. I long for a game that will draw me in like the old EQ days but it is not going to come. The genre has been on a rapid decline for 5-6 years now and it is not getting better any time soon.
I find myself enjoying my PS3 on a 50" Plasma on the couch more than sitting in front of my comp anymore. When I do try to play my PC games the only ones that satisfy are action RPG's such as Diablo 2 or Titan's Quest, etc.. I often wonder if my life long hobby is nothing more than simple burnout at this point. I am a responsible family man and have other hobbies (been a guitarist for 34 years) that are close to my heart. However, I have always enjoyed gaming. I tried to go back to WOW for the umpteenth time last week as I miss my friends and long time guild and it took all of me to last 4 days.
One of the problems is that we must be susceptible to change. Nothing stays the same and going backwards is not the answer ex: EQ, DAOC, UO, etc... Taking some of these forms and incorporating them into new development is not a bad idea of course. The leveling treadmill has got to cease for people like us. However, for newer generation MMO players they love the design. Us old timers are just burnt out on the same old grind for the last 15 years and I don't think its going to change any time soon.
A fine example of this cultural differecne is the attitudes in today's online gaming. SOme of the dispicable behavior you mention never happened in MUDS and early MMO's. Sure, you occassionally had the asshat but they were stomped out immediately. One could get a bad reputation and find themselves with no one to play with or even banned by the community. Times have changed and it seems that disrespectful behavior is glorified. Hell, look out your ffront door its everywhere. How much easier does it become for jackasses with the annonymity of the internet then.
There is no resolution other than to do as you have said you would do and give up on this genre until something that appeals to you finds light. my last vestige of hope for a solid game is the SWOR. I am not sure even though its Bioware that it is going to a spectacular blow me away game. More and more I get the feeling that it is going to become another dumbed down version to appeal to all masses.
The day of the passionate developer is gone. One cannot live on dreams and fantasies. We must understand that side of thie issue as well. There are jobs and lifes at stake; massive overhead costs; and the worries of failure. Therefore, we cannot expect developers and financial backers to take the risks they once did. WOW was/is a phenomenon and I don't think even Blizz's next MMO will topple the giant. Developers want that revenue and sub base like any business does. We cannot truly blame them for this; their a corporate entity like any other trying to make revenue and survive.
Again, this leaves us with the only viable option and that is to deal with what we have and try to enjoy it or move on. I do not think anyone is to blame in the scope of the things. Many gamers want more than what we have yet none of us are creating these financially overwhelming games to play. I can bitch all I want about what this dev or that dev needs to to do (and convince myself I am right) yet, I am not creating the game I feel the industry needs. I do not have the technological background for it nor do I have the cash flow. I am a smart buisness man and if I had the opportunity and the backing the financial backers would want the WOW model numbers good or bad in my opinion.
There is no easy solution for either side except to stop paying and playing. It is easy for all of us to get caught up in hat we think is right or wrong and we all want to be heard. I have friends who are in development and have worked on some of the top MMO's. Their life is insane with 15+ hour days and massive burnout. When a game goes bankrupt they are scrambling to try and feed their families like any other worker. We see the end results of these games yet we never get a good glimpse of the time, money, and effort involved.
Sorry for the diatribe and I'll shut my piehole now
Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box. ~ Italian proverb
Since my ending days of FFXI (end of 2004) years ago there hasn't been a single mmo that has kept me subbed for more than 2 months except for WOW. They all either was just plain horrible or a copy cat of what has been done before. Lotro,WAR,AOC and all f2p mmos since my ending days of FFXI pretty much all fail. Sometimes I ask myself why am I even a pc gamer these days when pretty much the mmo market is pretty bad right now.
Everything is a wait and see. For one, Aion has been doing great interantionally and is heading to the US/EU markets soon. I also like Champions Online to be hopeful as well. The Old Republic from Bioware may seem promising but we have no idea when it will be released. Arenanet's Guild Wars 2 has no release date and they have yet to even give is solid info on the game. Blizzard has a new mmo on the way but noone knows what it is or when. I know alot of gamers are eagerly awaiting on atleast one of these mmos but as they say, patience is a virtue.