How can people continue to defend this pathological liar? It is insane - borderline stupidity.. Wait it is stupidity.
There are millions of people who worship some book written thousands of years ago by a bunch of guys with nothing better to do.It's not that hard to believe that there are a few hundred idiots following this game and eating up all the nonsense the "devs" throw at them.
How can people continue to defend this pathological liar? It is insane - borderline stupidity.. Wait it is stupidity. All devs / people who contribute in any meaningful way in a games development would get listed in the credits.. They even list the testers and ' special ' contributers. Tasos is nowhere to be found in any and so it is obvious he had nothing to do with any of those games. He was just trying to pad his image in an area oblivious to what he and Darkfall are all about.
Oh wow, wait. You just convinced me. Darkfall is vaporware and they are all lying. God I've been so naive. Tasos MUST be a complete liar, especially if his name wasn't anywhere in those lists of credits. Wow, I've been had. Everyone knows you have to have been a lead dev or credited in every project you've ever done in order to be successful in the future at all. What was I thinking!? I mean forget contract work that could have been done on any of these projects, that doesn't count at all. I need a name in credits and this guy is obviously lying.
The only qualification that Tasos needs is the ability to lead a software project. It seems obvious to most of us that is a qualification he evidently does not have.
How can people continue to defend this pathological liar? It is insane - borderline stupidity.. Wait it is stupidity. All devs / people who contribute in any meaningful way in a games development would get listed in the credits.. They even list the testers and ' special ' contributers. Tasos is nowhere to be found in any and so it is obvious he had nothing to do with any of those games. He was just trying to pad his image in an area oblivious to what he and Darkfall are all about.
Oh wow, wait. You just convinced me. Darkfall is vaporware and they are all lying. God I've been so naive. Tasos MUST be a complete liar, especially if his name wasn't anywhere in those lists of credits. Wow, I've been had. Everyone knows you have to have been a lead dev or credited in every project you've ever done in order to be successful in the future at all. What was I thinking!? I mean forget contract work that could have been done on any of these projects, that doesn't count at all. I need a name in credits and this guy is obviously lying.
*sighs*
Contractors get credited. Anyone that worked on the project gets credited. The sociable coffee boy gets special thanks credit. Why is that so hard to understand? It's extremely unlikely that he worked on 4 different projects and didn't get credit in any of them. The objectionable thing is not that he's inexperienced, everyone has to start somewhere, it's that he's trying to get around it by attempting to create credentials out of thin air.
How can people continue to defend this pathological liar? It is insane - borderline stupidity.. Wait it is stupidity. All devs / people who contribute in any meaningful way in a games development would get listed in the credits.. They even list the testers and ' special ' contributers. Tasos is nowhere to be found in any and so it is obvious he had nothing to do with any of those games. He was just trying to pad his image in an area oblivious to what he and Darkfall are all about.
Oh wow, wait. You just convinced me. Darkfall is vaporware and they are all lying. God I've been so naive. Tasos MUST be a complete liar, especially if his name wasn't anywhere in those lists of credits. Wow, I've been had. Everyone knows you have to have been a lead dev or credited in every project you've ever done in order to be successful in the future at all. What was I thinking!? I mean forget contract work that could have been done on any of these projects, that doesn't count at all. I need a name in credits and this guy is obviously lying.
I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. Actually.. You need to convince me that this game actually exists and that they havent been stealing the investment money they obviously have been getting from no name guys and companies.
Until I see a video with a UI , someone in a town , in a dungeon and fighting in a semi large PvP battle I will not view this game as having any validity to it. A " feature complete " game should have no problem producing such a video.
Maskedweasel, I don’t want to appear rude but like I said , I wont be continuing the conversation with you if by your own admission you are only playing devils advocate and your dismissing most or everything I have found recently as not being relevant in one way or another or anything else that is known about this company and its project. I think Its rather pointless to be continuing that conversation with yourself, and you will be doing so until you can actually provide something tangible (excluding Tasos’s words or your own) that supports your own apparently rather positive and optimist faith based speculation about the potential or possibilities you consider this project might achieve at some time in the future.
Basically a cop out, and thats alright. because anything without "tangible" evidence of being developed by your standard would therefore not be developed eventhough -- according to silvarch you both believe this game to be in development.
My argument that this game is being developed? Well an old video, some screenshots, a developer journal, and a few websites one in particular with a launch date of TBA2008. Just because you can dig up the past polar and just because you believe everything you see to be connected to the fate of this project doesn't make it so. You're just an ousider on the project like everyone else with a lot of spare time on your hands to "uncover" the truth. Does the truth include this game not being in development? Thats all I'm asking. If the game isn't in development then we can consider it vaporware until launch. But we should add many more games to that vaporware list, just about anything in development.
All this information really has very little relevance to how far along the project is, when and if it will launch, and what state ADVENTURINE is in. Now if you can give us that RELEVANT information to the project (y'know.. stuff more recent regarding DarkFall) I might change my tune.
Silvarch
I don't understand this statement : "I simply state that the legallity of this would simply be that DarkFall is actually in development."
Basically all I'm saying is that if they were doing things legally the actual belief would be that the game is in development.
Silvarch and Polarization, all I'm trying to do is prove that you don't know. And by these conversations you really don't know much more then any of us. You make us believe this information will be the downfall of Adventurine and DarkFall, but it really doesn't give us any more insight to what Adventurines current dealings are then we had before.
Maybe 5 years ago this would have rocked our feeble Darkfall world, now it's just something that happened a long time ago.
And since you both take me as such an avid DarkFall follower, I gotta say, I really hope this does launch just cause i wanna see what you'll say next.
How can people continue to defend this pathological liar? It is insane - borderline stupidity.. Wait it is stupidity. All devs / people who contribute in any meaningful way in a games development would get listed in the credits.. They even list the testers and ' special ' contributers. Tasos is nowhere to be found in any and so it is obvious he had nothing to do with any of those games. He was just trying to pad his image in an area oblivious to what he and Darkfall are all about.
Oh wow, wait. You just convinced me. Darkfall is vaporware and they are all lying. God I've been so naive. Tasos MUST be a complete liar, especially if his name wasn't anywhere in those lists of credits. Wow, I've been had. Everyone knows you have to have been a lead dev or credited in every project you've ever done in order to be successful in the future at all. What was I thinking!? I mean forget contract work that could have been done on any of these projects, that doesn't count at all. I need a name in credits and this guy is obviously lying.
*sighs*
Contractors get credited. Anyone that worked on the project gets credited. The sociable coffee boy gets special thanks credit. Why is that so hard to understand? It's extremely unlikely that he worked on 4 different projects and didn't get credit in any of them. The objectionable thing is not that he's inexperienced, everyone has to start somewhere, it's that he's trying to get around it by attempting to create credentials out of thin air.
This is a good point, I wonder if they'd put just the studio name though that worked on the project?
Maskedweasel, I don’t want to appear rude but like I said , I wont be continuing the conversation with you if by your own admission you are only playing devils advocate and your dismissing most or everything I have found recently as not being relevant in one way or another or anything else that is known about this company and its project. I think Its rather pointless to be continuing that conversation with yourself, and you will be doing so until you can actually provide something tangible (excluding Tasos’s words or your own) that supports your own apparently rather positive and optimist faith based speculation about the potential or possibilities you consider this project might achieve at some time in the future.
Basically a cop out, and thats alright. because anything without "tangible" evidence of being developed by your standard would therefore not be developed eventhough -- according to silvarch you both believe this game to be in development.
My argument that this game is being developed? Well an old video, some screenshots, a developer journal, and a few websites one in particular with a launch date of TBA2008. Just because you can dig up the past polar and just because you believe everything you see to be connected to the fate of this project doesn't make it so. You're just an ousider on the project like everyone else with a lot of spare time on your hands to "uncover" the truth. Does the truth include this game not being in development? Thats all I'm asking. If the game isn't in development then we can consider it vaporware until launch. But we should add many more games to that vaporware list, just about anything in development.
All this information really has very little relevance to how far along the project is, when and if it will launch, and what state ADVENTURINE is in. Now if you can give us that RELEVANT information to the project (y'know.. stuff more recent regarding DarkFall) I might change my tune.
Silvarch
I don't understand this statement : "I simply state that the legallity of this would simply be that DarkFall is actually in development."
Basically all I'm saying is that if they were doing things legally the actual belief would be that the game is in development.
Silvarch and Polarization, all I'm trying to do is prove that you don't know. And by these conversations you really don't know much more then any of us. You make us believe this information will be the downfall of Adventurine and DarkFall, but it really doesn't give us any more insight to what Adventurines current dealings are then we had before.
Maybe 5 years ago this would have rocked our feeble Darkfall world, now it's just something that happened a long time ago.
And since you both take me as such an avid DarkFall follower, I gotta say, I really hope this does launch just cause i wanna see what you'll say next.
I've stated repeatedly I don't know anything about the true state of the game. I don't understand why you're trying to prove something I've always admitted and have never claimed otherwise. The point is neither do you, so you can't stand on a moral or factual high ground and discount Polarization's assumptions, based on verifiable empirical evidence, because you prefer your own assumptions to that. We have not said it's impossible for everything they say to be true, we just disagree with you on how probable it is. I do not make or try to make anyone believe anything, but it does give us insight into the dealings of Aventurine, so you can form your own conclusions. Even though you say it's not directly related to the DF project (I think it is), you can't deny the fact that it is intimately related to the people behind the project, and so far we haven't gotten any indication that the same thing is not happening.
"Basically all I'm saying is that if they were doing things legally the actual belief would be that the game is in development."
Excellent example of the begging the question logical fallacy. Nothing but faith backs up this belief, especially when there is illegal precedent involving these people.
The vaporware categorization isn't for all unreleased games, there are several types of it and several of which DF meets. Do check definitions, you will find out why DF does while most unreleased games do not.
The people who see this new information and have the ability to understand it for what it is are the intended audience of it, it's not meant to "change your tune" or anyone else's who thinks it's completely unrelated, indoctrination can only be overcome from within. You can't discount it because "it doesn't change anything for you" or because you think it's unrelated, unless you can actually prove it's offbase and unfounded with by presenting some sort of supporting evidence. Otherwise you're just saying your assumptions are better than someone else's because you disagree with them, not because of any real evidence. Not real, because unlike facts presented by Polarization which are verifiable and from prominent third parties, the ones you support your argument with come from the very same people whose integrity is in question.
While the true state of DF project and the managing of Aventurine is unknown by all parties except the people in charge, the ultimate fate of Razorwax , managed by the same people, and the fact that they made gross misstatements by saying they merged are not. Regardless of whether you find it relevant or not, it is. It's the same people in charge. They've lied before, it's safer to assume they could lie again than to expect a change of heart.
I do hope the game releases with all its promised features as well, albeit for other, non-vindicative, reasons.
More importantly, do you still state that information that was previously unknown about past events that does not change generally or personally accepted views is old information?
"The point is neither do you, so you can't stand on a moral or factual high ground and discount Polarization's assumptions, based on verifiable empirical evidence, because you prefer your own assumptions to that. We have not said it's impossible for everything they say to be true, we just disagree with you on how probable it is. I do not make or try to make anyone believe anything, but it does give us insight into the dealings of Aventurine, so you can form your own conclusions."
The only point I'm trying to prove in all this, is that you both could very well be wrong, and that neither of you has actual information on the current state of the project. Vindicating (hopefully) all those DarkFall hopefulls that believe that theres something worth believing in. I'm tired of hearing everyone rag on people saying they're ridiculous, stupid, ignorant, or foolish because they believe this game will one day come to fruition.
Its fine if you don't believe something good will come of this game, and for the most part both of you allow for people to make their own decisions. I also think that if you look hard enough into any single company you'll find enough bad in there to see exactly what you want to see. You think SOE has a flawless record... or how about Funcom? Maybe non-game companies like Sprint, Comcast, and Wal-Mart are absolute do-gooders.
Excellent example of the begging the question logical fallacy. Nothing but faith backs up this belief, especially when there is illegal precedent involving these people.
Please, half this forum is a logical fallacy, in to call believing in darkfall to release as being one is ridiculous. You take what information has already been given, even in the past 2 years, and disregard it, they take the information given from the previous 4 years and deny it, and somehow in the middle theres the actual truth of the whole project, and noone knows but the developers. Its like me asking you how many apples I have in my hand, and all you have to go upon is a picture of my hand and an article with a picture of me holding 4 apples. You'll never know how many I'm actually holding, but you can take a guess.
You take info A, they take info B, and the battle rages on.
lastly. I do hope the game releases with all its promised features as well, albeit for other, non-vindicative, reasons.
I just think its funny to what extent people go sometimes to make things look in a certain light. I do want the game to launch, and even do well, of course I'm not holding my breath. The only reason I've been keeping up with this thread is because I like the argument, and I dislike all the naysayers that try to make others feel bad because they believe in something that may very well be worth believing in. I find it funny that polar bowed out. An intricate explanation of what exactly his beliefs were may have helped, but his complete disregard of my arguments (which are tough to argue about in the first place) makes me wonder how strong his convictions really are. As for your last and final question, I've given my answer in an earlier reply.
I've repeatedly stated (to no avail it seems) that I don't know anything about the true state of the game. Repeatedly. Several times. I know everything I think could be wrong (and I hope it is), that is the nature of speculation. But the argument on the other side is not only also speculation, but with far less evidence, empirical or otherwise, supporting it. They also, at least the vast majority of supporters, do not concede the possibility of being wrong.
Have I ever stated believing in Darkfall release to be ridiculous? If I haven't why are you using that to justify a logical fallacy in an argument against me? So it's OK to use logical fallacies if other people are using them? That'd be another logical fallacy by the way. Have I ever said I thought SOE, or anyone else, had a flawless record? Why are they relevant now when information about the same staff behind the project, according to you, wasn't?
I also think that if you look hard enough into any single company you'll find enough bad in there to see exactly what you want to see.
Maybe you will, but for the most part you will find something solid from them to judge for yourself on the shelf. Until we have that, we will have to go with what we know to be fact about them. The rest is faith.
I don't disregard or deny any information, you do that, not once have I said any of the info provided by the devs in irrelevant or outright fake, I've just pointed out the possibility of it being the latter. The only stuff that has been denied was done not by me, but by verifiable new information provided by Polarization, such as the devs claiming a merger between Avenrutine and Razorwax, even though we saw evidence demonstrating that Razorwax was functioning in Norway until 2006. The only problem is, again, the info supporting your side of the argument only comes from the devs themselves, and for the most part, is only unsubstantiated claims. The interviews do nothing to dispel my doubts (or apparently one of the interviewers, by now, considering the views expressed on email to a member of this forum) because I do believe they have something, just not the game they've been talking about.
Regarding the concept of new information, let's do this slowly:
Did you know about Razorwax's activities between 2003 and 2006?
Did it change your view regarding Razorwax's ultimate fate and/or the merger between Aventurine and Razorwax in 2003 and/or Tasos actual involvement in Razorwax?
Maskedweasel, I don’t want to appear rude but like I said , I wont be continuing the conversation with you if by your own admission you are only playing devils advocate and your dismissing most or everything I have found recently as not being relevant in one way or another or anything else that is known about this company and its project. I think Its rather pointless to be continuing that conversation with yourself, and you will be doing so until you can actually provide something tangible (excluding Tasos’s words or your own) that supports your own apparently rather positive and optimist faith based speculation about the potential or possibilities you consider this project might achieve at some time in the future.
Basically a cop out, and thats alright. because anything without "tangible" evidence of being developed by your standard would therefore not be developed eventhough -- according to silvarch you both believe this game to be in development.
My argument that this game is being developed? Well an old video, some screenshots, a developer journal, and a few websites one in particular with a launch date of TBA2008. Just because you can dig up the past polar and just because you believe everything you see to be connected to the fate of this project doesn't make it so. You're just an ousider on the project like everyone else with a lot of spare time on your hands to "uncover" the truth. Does the truth include this game not being in development? Thats all I'm asking. If the game isn't in development then we can consider it vaporware until launch. But we should add many more games to that vaporware list, just about anything in development.
All this information really has very little relevance to how far along the project is, when and if it will launch, and what state ADVENTURINE is in. Now if you can give us that RELEVANT information to the project (y'know.. stuff more recent regarding DarkFall) I might change my tune.
And at the same time I also consider you to of “coped out” of the argument by
Stating you are only playing devils advocate,
refusing to accept anything known about the developers and the company’s involved with this project from the past as being relevant to the present or future,
and being so far incapable of providing any evidence yourself to support your claims to the contrary.
Please actually provide what you consider is the substantial or tangible evidence of comparable equivalence that supports your claims, I wont dismiss it as not being relevant as you have done so far to everything I or anyone else has presented that does not support you optimistic or positive opinion.
Because that would be the sort of subjective behavior I would expect from someone who as an agenda, and not a real interest in objectively evaluating the information available.
Tasos does his job well... he is the Hype Machine and for investing like 10 min per week to it... he does a GREAT job, imo.
i agree. Tasos is great at PR. These trolls are just getting played like a fiddle providing free PR for Darkfall by making it even more infamous, then when DF releases with all features intact word of mouth will spread so quickly across the net they'll have saved themselves hundreds of thousands in advertising.
The only thing I do not understand is what exactly would he"Tasos" and the other numerous people confirmed to be working (or atleast doing something) on this project gains with it being a lie or some sort of scam.
I mean any investor (espiecially one dealing with a game investment) who does not demand to see the state of the project before allocating any funds is simply a terrible investor. You would want proof (with this project in paticular given you would research the games interest level and find these threads) that the game was indeed in some form of serious development. The only other logical conclusion then is he is lying to buy him (and these partners) enough time to leave to some non-extradition country where they can live off all the money they have scammed from investors to date. But why would he not of done this years ago. Without wasting untold monies on atleast the office building and operational costs of the websit. Even if he isn't paying any wages/developmental costs on any real game at all.
The other idea is that they just love stringing us along for the amusement at the cost of tons of their "self funding". Well that seems like a terrible waste of money to me. Not sure anyone would do that.
Maybe this game fails. For numerous reasons. They could run out of money to complete the game. Maybe they just don't know how to make a playable game due to their lack of experience. Or any other such thing. I just think its silly to think the entire thing is a scam and/or not in some phase of development. If it is they are the worst scam artists in history. They should have got as much money as possible upfront then went and hid. Not hang around for 7 years. I mean why not reach the pinnacle of hype (prolly 1-2 years ago) tell us all its ready and accepting Pre-Orders.
Unless the laws in Greece are very different then most modern countries. Scamming investors is still a serious crime. You think one of these investors would be interested in what their money is being spent on. And if they feared they were being scammed would take it the proper authorities.
Elsewise they are just wasting their own money on this project, probably lots of it, and then why do you even care?
My thoughts happen to be they will release this game for financial reasons. I do not know if it will be remotely playable. Again my guess would be probably not. Given the way they have handled these issues that have been brought to attention. But they are either going to jail, or have wasted tons of money, if they don't release something.
There's no indication they have investors other than initial ones to scam. I don't think the whole thing is a scam. I think it's just a group of people who had a common dream, shared it with the world too early, resonated with a good group of people, but when it was time to realize it they proverbially bit off more than they could chew. I think Tasos deliberately lies for the sake of PR, which in my opinion is not a very smart thing to do, and that the other devs have too little input in the community. I think they have a game, but it's not the game Tasos has been talking about or what they dreamed of, and Tasos is spinning it too strongly. The game could be a good game, but the incessant promises will cause great disappointment for those who are expecting them, maybe even ruining it.
I would really like to hear about the game from the actual devs. A dev journal, sort of like a postmortem before release.
Tasos does his job well... he is the Hype Machine and for investing like 10 min per week to it... he does a GREAT job, imo.
i agree. Tasos is great at PR. These trolls are just getting played like a fiddle providing free PR for Darkfall by making it even more infamous, then when DF releases with all features intact word of mouth will spread so quickly across the net they'll have saved themselves hundreds of thousands in advertising.
There's no indication they have investors other than initial ones to scam. I don't think the whole thing is a scam. I think it's just a group of people who had a common dream, shared it with the world too early, resonated with a good group of people, but when it was time to realize it they proverbially bit off more than they could chew. I think Tasos deliberately lies for the sake of PR, which in my opinion is not a very smart thing to do, and that the other devs have too little input in the community. I think they have a game, but it's not the game Tasos has been talking about or what they dreamed of, and Tasos is spinning it too strongly. The game could be a good game, but the incessant promises will cause great disappointment for those who are expecting them, maybe even ruining it. I would really like to hear about the game from the actual devs. A dev journal, sort of like a postmortem before release.
my honest belief is that they have all they say they have, but they're just so obsessive-compulsive they don't want to release anything until everything is perfect. it's clear from the screenshots and such they've got a hell of a game now, graphics-wise, we just have to wait to see how well the gameplay delivers.
Maskedweasel, I don’t want to appear rude but like I said , I wont be continuing the conversation with you if by your own admission you are only playing devils advocate and your dismissing most or everything I have found recently as not being relevant in one way or another or anything else that is known about this company and its project. I think Its rather pointless to be continuing that conversation with yourself, and you will be doing so until you can actually provide something tangible (excluding Tasos’s words or your own) that supports your own apparently rather positive and optimist faith based speculation about the potential or possibilities you consider this project might achieve at some time in the future.
Basically a cop out, and thats alright. because anything without "tangible" evidence of being developed by your standard would therefore not be developed eventhough -- according to silvarch you both believe this game to be in development.
My argument that this game is being developed? Well an old video, some screenshots, a developer journal, and a few websites one in particular with a launch date of TBA2008. Just because you can dig up the past polar and just because you believe everything you see to be connected to the fate of this project doesn't make it so. You're just an ousider on the project like everyone else with a lot of spare time on your hands to "uncover" the truth. Does the truth include this game not being in development? Thats all I'm asking. If the game isn't in development then we can consider it vaporware until launch. But we should add many more games to that vaporware list, just about anything in development.
All this information really has very little relevance to how far along the project is, when and if it will launch, and what state ADVENTURINE is in. Now if you can give us that RELEVANT information to the project (y'know.. stuff more recent regarding DarkFall) I might change my tune.
And at the same time I also consider you to of “coped out” of the argument by
Stating you are only playing devils advocate,
refusing to accept anything known about the developers and the company’s involved with this project from the past as being relevant to the present or future,
and being so far incapable of providing any evidence yourself to support your claims to the contrary.
Please actually provide what you consider is the substantial or tangible evidence of comparable equivalence that supports your claims, I wont dismiss it as not being relevant as you have done so far to everything I or anyone else has presented that does not support you optimistic or positive opinion.
Because that would be the sort of subjective behavior I would expect from someone who as an agenda, and not a real interest in objectively evaluating the information available.
I'm only trying to prove 2 things from my post. 1) that despite all this "evidence" of the current state the game is in, you guys could be very wrong. and 2) That this game is in development -- actual development.
I think at least its been proven that theres some type of development going on. So you can consider me a cop out if you think just because I like debating something because I like to stand on the other side of fanatacism then you can go ahead, and I won't be offended. I think you're looking way to deep into things that have nothing to do with the actual state of the game. If someones financial situation OTHER THEN ADVENTURINES CURRENT financial situation has something to do with the current state of the project then I'm all ears.
If I've truly proven the game is in development, then theres a decent chance it will live to see the light of day.
Whether its truly feature complete, thats yet to be seen, if its 60% feature complete then it would be at least on par with most of the launches I've seen lately.
I never said Darkfall was not in development, what level of development it has reached is the question.
So no need to futilely “prove” the game is in some form of development, that’s obvious, its been in various forms of development over 8 years now, and before that was in the “planning stage” of development from some time since 1995.
I asked for “substantial or tangible evidence of comparable equivalence that supports your claims”, or preferably the developers.
A link to a test video of “sites and cities” which anyone can see for themselves and appreciate how inadequately it demonstrates the proposed feature and content list for Darkfall.
And an article written by someone who has expressed their concerns about the possibility that Darkfall will “never have enough content to launch” because the project is “self-funded” and that “as far as the graphics engine goes (from 2006), it looks similar to the screenshots that are currently on their site (June 2008).
Hardily constitutes in my opinion as substantial or tangible evidence that supports your or even the developers claims, in fact it in my opinion ironically just further encourages and supports a cautious if not critical and skeptical outlook.
So hardly proving your 1st point either then, that “you guys could be very wrong”, in my opinion you’ve just proven that “you guys could be very right” or at least might be right.
Of course if you seriously and genuinely consider what you have presented represent the best examples of “substantial or tangible evidence” that support your or the developers claims then by all means you are entitled to that opinion, just as I am to mine, that they are not.
Straw man argument much? I never said Darkfall was not in development, what level of development it has reached is the question. So no need to futilely “prove” the game is in some form of development, that’s obvious, its been in various forms of development over 8 years now, and before that was in the “planning stage” of development from some time since 1995. I asked for “substantial or tangible evidence of comparable equivalence that supports your claims”, or preferably the developers. A link to a test video of “sites and cities” which anyone can see for themselves and appreciate how inadequately it demonstrates the proposed feature and content list for Darkfall. And an article written by someone who has expressed their concerns about the possibility that Darkfall will “never have enough content to launch” because the project is “self-funded” and that “as far as the graphics engine goes (from 2006), it looks similar to the screenshots that are currently on their site (June 2008). Hardily constitutes in my opinion as substantial or tangible evidence that supports your or even the developers claims, in fact it in my opinion ironically just further encourages and supports a cautious if not critical and skeptical outlook. So hardly proving your 1st point either then, that “you guys could be very wrong”, in my opinion you’ve just proven that “you guys could be very right” or at least might be right. Of course if you seriously and genuinely consider what you have presented represent the best examples of “substantial or tangible evidence” that support your or the developers claims then by all means you are entitled to that opinion, just as I am to mine, that they are not.
Wait a sec now, are you saying that what YOU are saying is that this game is not going to launch feature complete? And what, I'm supposed to prove that this game IS going to launch feature complete?
Hey why don't you prove a single one of these MMOs on these boards launched feature complete? I've never seen someone habitually bash a developer as hard as you are just to prove they aren't going to launch a feature complete game. Get over it. Its not proven to be not feature-complete if the game launches I'll be happy, forget feature complete.
So what are you trying to prove here? What am I claiming that isn't proven by what I've shown. Something is in development, the game could very well launch with many of its features. If we're going on what has happened in the past then I might as well reserve myself to think that any game that doesn't have enough money to finish will automatically be bought by SOE .. that seems to be reasonable. I think at this point it wouldn't matter if the game launched tomorrow, you're so reserved to give everyone such a dull outlook on this game eventhough the information you have makes no difference on the actual state. And you still think that your "evidence" is proof of what state this game is in.
So "hardly proving my 1st point" but still proving it nonetheless you guys could be very right -- but for you to actually admit that you could be just as much wrong is like pulling teeth .... from a tiger.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and I think we can all agree some of the claims made by the developers and the supporters of this project and company over the years are certainly extraordinary.
On numerous occasions I have stated I could be wrong and that I would like to be wrong, but everything I’ve seen so far about this game and its company makes me think I’m probably right or at least much more likely to be right then the totally optimistic and positive members of the community.
So until this extraordinary evidence is presented I will continue expressing my “dull outlook”, just as other people are entitled to express their happy happy joy joy outlook.
The irony that we are debating about what state of development Darkfall is actually in, which is substantiated for most supporters generally by what the developers have told us but not actually shown us so far , in a thread that demonstrates that one of those developers has possibly been caught lying I hope is not lost on you.
Comments
There are millions of people who worship some book written thousands of years ago by a bunch of guys with nothing better to do.It's not that hard to believe that there are a few hundred idiots following this game and eating up all the nonsense the "devs" throw at them.
Blasphemous AND accurate in one.
I tip my hat to you, good sir.
Oh wow, wait. You just convinced me. Darkfall is vaporware and they are all lying. God I've been so naive. Tasos MUST be a complete liar, especially if his name wasn't anywhere in those lists of credits. Wow, I've been had. Everyone knows you have to have been a lead dev or credited in every project you've ever done in order to be successful in the future at all. What was I thinking!? I mean forget contract work that could have been done on any of these projects, that doesn't count at all. I need a name in credits and this guy is obviously lying.
The only qualification that Tasos needs is the ability to lead a software project. It seems obvious to most of us that is a qualification he evidently does not have.
Oh wow, wait. You just convinced me. Darkfall is vaporware and they are all lying. God I've been so naive. Tasos MUST be a complete liar, especially if his name wasn't anywhere in those lists of credits. Wow, I've been had. Everyone knows you have to have been a lead dev or credited in every project you've ever done in order to be successful in the future at all. What was I thinking!? I mean forget contract work that could have been done on any of these projects, that doesn't count at all. I need a name in credits and this guy is obviously lying.
*sighs*
Contractors get credited. Anyone that worked on the project gets credited. The sociable coffee boy gets special thanks credit. Why is that so hard to understand? It's extremely unlikely that he worked on 4 different projects and didn't get credit in any of them. The objectionable thing is not that he's inexperienced, everyone has to start somewhere, it's that he's trying to get around it by attempting to create credentials out of thin air.
Oh wow, wait. You just convinced me. Darkfall is vaporware and they are all lying. God I've been so naive. Tasos MUST be a complete liar, especially if his name wasn't anywhere in those lists of credits. Wow, I've been had. Everyone knows you have to have been a lead dev or credited in every project you've ever done in order to be successful in the future at all. What was I thinking!? I mean forget contract work that could have been done on any of these projects, that doesn't count at all. I need a name in credits and this guy is obviously lying.
I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. Actually.. You need to convince me that this game actually exists and that they havent been stealing the investment money they obviously have been getting from no name guys and companies.
Until I see a video with a UI , someone in a town , in a dungeon and fighting in a semi large PvP battle I will not view this game as having any validity to it. A " feature complete " game should have no problem producing such a video.
Basically a cop out, and thats alright. because anything without "tangible" evidence of being developed by your standard would therefore not be developed eventhough -- according to silvarch you both believe this game to be in development.
My argument that this game is being developed? Well an old video, some screenshots, a developer journal, and a few websites one in particular with a launch date of TBA2008. Just because you can dig up the past polar and just because you believe everything you see to be connected to the fate of this project doesn't make it so. You're just an ousider on the project like everyone else with a lot of spare time on your hands to "uncover" the truth. Does the truth include this game not being in development? Thats all I'm asking. If the game isn't in development then we can consider it vaporware until launch. But we should add many more games to that vaporware list, just about anything in development.
All this information really has very little relevance to how far along the project is, when and if it will launch, and what state ADVENTURINE is in. Now if you can give us that RELEVANT information to the project (y'know.. stuff more recent regarding DarkFall) I might change my tune.
Silvarch
I don't understand this statement : "I simply state that the legallity of this would simply be that DarkFall is actually in development."
Basically all I'm saying is that if they were doing things legally the actual belief would be that the game is in development.
Silvarch and Polarization, all I'm trying to do is prove that you don't know. And by these conversations you really don't know much more then any of us. You make us believe this information will be the downfall of Adventurine and DarkFall, but it really doesn't give us any more insight to what Adventurines current dealings are then we had before.
Maybe 5 years ago this would have rocked our feeble Darkfall world, now it's just something that happened a long time ago.
And since you both take me as such an avid DarkFall follower, I gotta say, I really hope this does launch just cause i wanna see what you'll say next.
Oh wow, wait. You just convinced me. Darkfall is vaporware and they are all lying. God I've been so naive. Tasos MUST be a complete liar, especially if his name wasn't anywhere in those lists of credits. Wow, I've been had. Everyone knows you have to have been a lead dev or credited in every project you've ever done in order to be successful in the future at all. What was I thinking!? I mean forget contract work that could have been done on any of these projects, that doesn't count at all. I need a name in credits and this guy is obviously lying.
*sighs*
Contractors get credited. Anyone that worked on the project gets credited. The sociable coffee boy gets special thanks credit. Why is that so hard to understand? It's extremely unlikely that he worked on 4 different projects and didn't get credit in any of them. The objectionable thing is not that he's inexperienced, everyone has to start somewhere, it's that he's trying to get around it by attempting to create credentials out of thin air.
This is a good point, I wonder if they'd put just the studio name though that worked on the project?
Basically a cop out, and thats alright. because anything without "tangible" evidence of being developed by your standard would therefore not be developed eventhough -- according to silvarch you both believe this game to be in development.
My argument that this game is being developed? Well an old video, some screenshots, a developer journal, and a few websites one in particular with a launch date of TBA2008. Just because you can dig up the past polar and just because you believe everything you see to be connected to the fate of this project doesn't make it so. You're just an ousider on the project like everyone else with a lot of spare time on your hands to "uncover" the truth. Does the truth include this game not being in development? Thats all I'm asking. If the game isn't in development then we can consider it vaporware until launch. But we should add many more games to that vaporware list, just about anything in development.
All this information really has very little relevance to how far along the project is, when and if it will launch, and what state ADVENTURINE is in. Now if you can give us that RELEVANT information to the project (y'know.. stuff more recent regarding DarkFall) I might change my tune.
Silvarch
I don't understand this statement : "I simply state that the legallity of this would simply be that DarkFall is actually in development."
Basically all I'm saying is that if they were doing things legally the actual belief would be that the game is in development.
Silvarch and Polarization, all I'm trying to do is prove that you don't know. And by these conversations you really don't know much more then any of us. You make us believe this information will be the downfall of Adventurine and DarkFall, but it really doesn't give us any more insight to what Adventurines current dealings are then we had before.
Maybe 5 years ago this would have rocked our feeble Darkfall world, now it's just something that happened a long time ago.
And since you both take me as such an avid DarkFall follower, I gotta say, I really hope this does launch just cause i wanna see what you'll say next.
I've stated repeatedly I don't know anything about the true state of the game. I don't understand why you're trying to prove something I've always admitted and have never claimed otherwise. The point is neither do you, so you can't stand on a moral or factual high ground and discount Polarization's assumptions, based on verifiable empirical evidence, because you prefer your own assumptions to that. We have not said it's impossible for everything they say to be true, we just disagree with you on how probable it is. I do not make or try to make anyone believe anything, but it does give us insight into the dealings of Aventurine, so you can form your own conclusions. Even though you say it's not directly related to the DF project (I think it is), you can't deny the fact that it is intimately related to the people behind the project, and so far we haven't gotten any indication that the same thing is not happening.
"Basically all I'm saying is that if they were doing things legally the actual belief would be that the game is in development."
Excellent example of the begging the question logical fallacy. Nothing but faith backs up this belief, especially when there is illegal precedent involving these people.
The vaporware categorization isn't for all unreleased games, there are several types of it and several of which DF meets. Do check definitions, you will find out why DF does while most unreleased games do not.
The people who see this new information and have the ability to understand it for what it is are the intended audience of it, it's not meant to "change your tune" or anyone else's who thinks it's completely unrelated, indoctrination can only be overcome from within. You can't discount it because "it doesn't change anything for you" or because you think it's unrelated, unless you can actually prove it's offbase and unfounded with by presenting some sort of supporting evidence. Otherwise you're just saying your assumptions are better than someone else's because you disagree with them, not because of any real evidence. Not real, because unlike facts presented by Polarization which are verifiable and from prominent third parties, the ones you support your argument with come from the very same people whose integrity is in question.
While the true state of DF project and the managing of Aventurine is unknown by all parties except the people in charge, the ultimate fate of Razorwax , managed by the same people, and the fact that they made gross misstatements by saying they merged are not. Regardless of whether you find it relevant or not, it is. It's the same people in charge. They've lied before, it's safer to assume they could lie again than to expect a change of heart.
I do hope the game releases with all its promised features as well, albeit for other, non-vindicative, reasons.
More importantly, do you still state that information that was previously unknown about past events that does not change generally or personally accepted views is old information?
"The point is neither do you, so you can't stand on a moral or factual high ground and discount Polarization's assumptions, based on verifiable empirical evidence, because you prefer your own assumptions to that. We have not said it's impossible for everything they say to be true, we just disagree with you on how probable it is. I do not make or try to make anyone believe anything, but it does give us insight into the dealings of Aventurine, so you can form your own conclusions."
The only point I'm trying to prove in all this, is that you both could very well be wrong, and that neither of you has actual information on the current state of the project. Vindicating (hopefully) all those DarkFall hopefulls that believe that theres something worth believing in. I'm tired of hearing everyone rag on people saying they're ridiculous, stupid, ignorant, or foolish because they believe this game will one day come to fruition.
Its fine if you don't believe something good will come of this game, and for the most part both of you allow for people to make their own decisions. I also think that if you look hard enough into any single company you'll find enough bad in there to see exactly what you want to see. You think SOE has a flawless record... or how about Funcom? Maybe non-game companies like Sprint, Comcast, and Wal-Mart are absolute do-gooders.
Excellent example of the begging the question logical fallacy. Nothing but faith backs up this belief, especially when there is illegal precedent involving these people.
Please, half this forum is a logical fallacy, in to call believing in darkfall to release as being one is ridiculous. You take what information has already been given, even in the past 2 years, and disregard it, they take the information given from the previous 4 years and deny it, and somehow in the middle theres the actual truth of the whole project, and noone knows but the developers. Its like me asking you how many apples I have in my hand, and all you have to go upon is a picture of my hand and an article with a picture of me holding 4 apples. You'll never know how many I'm actually holding, but you can take a guess.
You take info A, they take info B, and the battle rages on.
lastly. I do hope the game releases with all its promised features as well, albeit for other, non-vindicative, reasons.
I just think its funny to what extent people go sometimes to make things look in a certain light. I do want the game to launch, and even do well, of course I'm not holding my breath. The only reason I've been keeping up with this thread is because I like the argument, and I dislike all the naysayers that try to make others feel bad because they believe in something that may very well be worth believing in. I find it funny that polar bowed out. An intricate explanation of what exactly his beliefs were may have helped, but his complete disregard of my arguments (which are tough to argue about in the first place) makes me wonder how strong his convictions really are. As for your last and final question, I've given my answer in an earlier reply.
I've repeatedly stated (to no avail it seems) that I don't know anything about the true state of the game. Repeatedly. Several times. I know everything I think could be wrong (and I hope it is), that is the nature of speculation. But the argument on the other side is not only also speculation, but with far less evidence, empirical or otherwise, supporting it. They also, at least the vast majority of supporters, do not concede the possibility of being wrong.
Have I ever stated believing in Darkfall release to be ridiculous? If I haven't why are you using that to justify a logical fallacy in an argument against me? So it's OK to use logical fallacies if other people are using them? That'd be another logical fallacy by the way. Have I ever said I thought SOE, or anyone else, had a flawless record? Why are they relevant now when information about the same staff behind the project, according to you, wasn't?
I also think that if you look hard enough into any single company you'll find enough bad in there to see exactly what you want to see.
Maybe you will, but for the most part you will find something solid from them to judge for yourself on the shelf. Until we have that, we will have to go with what we know to be fact about them. The rest is faith.
I don't disregard or deny any information, you do that, not once have I said any of the info provided by the devs in irrelevant or outright fake, I've just pointed out the possibility of it being the latter. The only stuff that has been denied was done not by me, but by verifiable new information provided by Polarization, such as the devs claiming a merger between Avenrutine and Razorwax, even though we saw evidence demonstrating that Razorwax was functioning in Norway until 2006. The only problem is, again, the info supporting your side of the argument only comes from the devs themselves, and for the most part, is only unsubstantiated claims. The interviews do nothing to dispel my doubts (or apparently one of the interviewers, by now, considering the views expressed on email to a member of this forum) because I do believe they have something, just not the game they've been talking about.
Regarding the concept of new information, let's do this slowly:
Did you know about Razorwax's activities between 2003 and 2006?
Did it change your view regarding Razorwax's ultimate fate and/or the merger between Aventurine and Razorwax in 2003 and/or Tasos actual involvement in Razorwax?
Basically a cop out, and thats alright. because anything without "tangible" evidence of being developed by your standard would therefore not be developed eventhough -- according to silvarch you both believe this game to be in development.
My argument that this game is being developed? Well an old video, some screenshots, a developer journal, and a few websites one in particular with a launch date of TBA2008. Just because you can dig up the past polar and just because you believe everything you see to be connected to the fate of this project doesn't make it so. You're just an ousider on the project like everyone else with a lot of spare time on your hands to "uncover" the truth. Does the truth include this game not being in development? Thats all I'm asking. If the game isn't in development then we can consider it vaporware until launch. But we should add many more games to that vaporware list, just about anything in development.
All this information really has very little relevance to how far along the project is, when and if it will launch, and what state ADVENTURINE is in. Now if you can give us that RELEVANT information to the project (y'know.. stuff more recent regarding DarkFall) I might change my tune.
And at the same time I also consider you to of “coped out” of the argument by
Stating you are only playing devils advocate,
refusing to accept anything known about the developers and the company’s involved with this project from the past as being relevant to the present or future,
and being so far incapable of providing any evidence yourself to support your claims to the contrary.
Please actually provide what you consider is the substantial or tangible evidence of comparable equivalence that supports your claims, I wont dismiss it as not being relevant as you have done so far to everything I or anyone else has presented that does not support you optimistic or positive opinion.
Because that would be the sort of subjective behavior I would expect from someone who as an agenda, and not a real interest in objectively evaluating the information available.
i agree. Tasos is great at PR. These trolls are just getting played like a fiddle providing free PR for Darkfall by making it even more infamous, then when DF releases with all features intact word of mouth will spread so quickly across the net they'll have saved themselves hundreds of thousands in advertising.
it's genius really.
The only thing I do not understand is what exactly would he"Tasos" and the other numerous people confirmed to be working (or atleast doing something) on this project gains with it being a lie or some sort of scam.
I mean any investor (espiecially one dealing with a game investment) who does not demand to see the state of the project before allocating any funds is simply a terrible investor. You would want proof (with this project in paticular given you would research the games interest level and find these threads) that the game was indeed in some form of serious development. The only other logical conclusion then is he is lying to buy him (and these partners) enough time to leave to some non-extradition country where they can live off all the money they have scammed from investors to date. But why would he not of done this years ago. Without wasting untold monies on atleast the office building and operational costs of the websit. Even if he isn't paying any wages/developmental costs on any real game at all.
The other idea is that they just love stringing us along for the amusement at the cost of tons of their "self funding". Well that seems like a terrible waste of money to me. Not sure anyone would do that.
Maybe this game fails. For numerous reasons. They could run out of money to complete the game. Maybe they just don't know how to make a playable game due to their lack of experience. Or any other such thing. I just think its silly to think the entire thing is a scam and/or not in some phase of development. If it is they are the worst scam artists in history. They should have got as much money as possible upfront then went and hid. Not hang around for 7 years. I mean why not reach the pinnacle of hype (prolly 1-2 years ago) tell us all its ready and accepting Pre-Orders.
Unless the laws in Greece are very different then most modern countries. Scamming investors is still a serious crime. You think one of these investors would be interested in what their money is being spent on. And if they feared they were being scammed would take it the proper authorities.
Elsewise they are just wasting their own money on this project, probably lots of it, and then why do you even care?
My thoughts happen to be they will release this game for financial reasons. I do not know if it will be remotely playable. Again my guess would be probably not. Given the way they have handled these issues that have been brought to attention. But they are either going to jail, or have wasted tons of money, if they don't release something.
There's no indication they have investors other than initial ones to scam. I don't think the whole thing is a scam. I think it's just a group of people who had a common dream, shared it with the world too early, resonated with a good group of people, but when it was time to realize it they proverbially bit off more than they could chew. I think Tasos deliberately lies for the sake of PR, which in my opinion is not a very smart thing to do, and that the other devs have too little input in the community. I think they have a game, but it's not the game Tasos has been talking about or what they dreamed of, and Tasos is spinning it too strongly. The game could be a good game, but the incessant promises will cause great disappointment for those who are expecting them, maybe even ruining it.
I would really like to hear about the game from the actual devs. A dev journal, sort of like a postmortem before release.
i agree. Tasos is great at PR. These trolls are just getting played like a fiddle providing free PR for Darkfall by making it even more infamous, then when DF releases with all features intact word of mouth will spread so quickly across the net they'll have saved themselves hundreds of thousands in advertising.
it's genius really.
Let us hope so.
my honest belief is that they have all they say they have, but they're just so obsessive-compulsive they don't want to release anything until everything is perfect. it's clear from the screenshots and such they've got a hell of a game now, graphics-wise, we just have to wait to see how well the gameplay delivers.
Basically a cop out, and thats alright. because anything without "tangible" evidence of being developed by your standard would therefore not be developed eventhough -- according to silvarch you both believe this game to be in development.
My argument that this game is being developed? Well an old video, some screenshots, a developer journal, and a few websites one in particular with a launch date of TBA2008. Just because you can dig up the past polar and just because you believe everything you see to be connected to the fate of this project doesn't make it so. You're just an ousider on the project like everyone else with a lot of spare time on your hands to "uncover" the truth. Does the truth include this game not being in development? Thats all I'm asking. If the game isn't in development then we can consider it vaporware until launch. But we should add many more games to that vaporware list, just about anything in development.
All this information really has very little relevance to how far along the project is, when and if it will launch, and what state ADVENTURINE is in. Now if you can give us that RELEVANT information to the project (y'know.. stuff more recent regarding DarkFall) I might change my tune.
And at the same time I also consider you to of “coped out” of the argument by
Stating you are only playing devils advocate,
refusing to accept anything known about the developers and the company’s involved with this project from the past as being relevant to the present or future,
and being so far incapable of providing any evidence yourself to support your claims to the contrary.
Please actually provide what you consider is the substantial or tangible evidence of comparable equivalence that supports your claims, I wont dismiss it as not being relevant as you have done so far to everything I or anyone else has presented that does not support you optimistic or positive opinion.
Because that would be the sort of subjective behavior I would expect from someone who as an agenda, and not a real interest in objectively evaluating the information available.
I'm only trying to prove 2 things from my post. 1) that despite all this "evidence" of the current state the game is in, you guys could be very wrong. and 2) That this game is in development -- actual development.
I believe I've already proved 1, and as for 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALE91GCgTqo
http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/188780
I think at least its been proven that theres some type of development going on. So you can consider me a cop out if you think just because I like debating something because I like to stand on the other side of fanatacism then you can go ahead, and I won't be offended. I think you're looking way to deep into things that have nothing to do with the actual state of the game. If someones financial situation OTHER THEN ADVENTURINES CURRENT financial situation has something to do with the current state of the project then I'm all ears.
If I've truly proven the game is in development, then theres a decent chance it will live to see the light of day.
Whether its truly feature complete, thats yet to be seen, if its 60% feature complete then it would be at least on par with most of the launches I've seen lately.
Straw man argument much?
I never said Darkfall was not in development, what level of development it has reached is the question.
So no need to futilely “prove” the game is in some form of development, that’s obvious, its been in various forms of development over 8 years now, and before that was in the “planning stage” of development from some time since 1995.
I asked for “substantial or tangible evidence of comparable equivalence that supports your claims”, or preferably the developers.
A link to a test video of “sites and cities” which anyone can see for themselves and appreciate how inadequately it demonstrates the proposed feature and content list for Darkfall.
And an article written by someone who has expressed their concerns about the possibility that Darkfall will “never have enough content to launch” because the project is “self-funded” and that “as far as the graphics engine goes (from 2006), it looks similar to the screenshots that are currently on their site (June 2008).
Hardily constitutes in my opinion as substantial or tangible evidence that supports your or even the developers claims, in fact it in my opinion ironically just further encourages and supports a cautious if not critical and skeptical outlook.
So hardly proving your 1st point either then, that “you guys could be very wrong”, in my opinion you’ve just proven that “you guys could be very right” or at least might be right.
Of course if you seriously and genuinely consider what you have presented represent the best examples of “substantial or tangible evidence” that support your or the developers claims then by all means you are entitled to that opinion, just as I am to mine, that they are not.
Wait a sec now, are you saying that what YOU are saying is that this game is not going to launch feature complete? And what, I'm supposed to prove that this game IS going to launch feature complete?
Hey why don't you prove a single one of these MMOs on these boards launched feature complete? I've never seen someone habitually bash a developer as hard as you are just to prove they aren't going to launch a feature complete game. Get over it. Its not proven to be not feature-complete if the game launches I'll be happy, forget feature complete.
So what are you trying to prove here? What am I claiming that isn't proven by what I've shown. Something is in development, the game could very well launch with many of its features. If we're going on what has happened in the past then I might as well reserve myself to think that any game that doesn't have enough money to finish will automatically be bought by SOE .. that seems to be reasonable. I think at this point it wouldn't matter if the game launched tomorrow, you're so reserved to give everyone such a dull outlook on this game eventhough the information you have makes no difference on the actual state. And you still think that your "evidence" is proof of what state this game is in.
So "hardly proving my 1st point" but still proving it nonetheless you guys could be very right -- but for you to actually admit that you could be just as much wrong is like pulling teeth .... from a tiger.
Proving a negative is impossible.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and I think we can all agree some of the claims made by the developers and the supporters of this project and company over the years are certainly extraordinary.
On numerous occasions I have stated I could be wrong and that I would like to be wrong, but everything I’ve seen so far about this game and its company makes me think I’m probably right or at least much more likely to be right then the totally optimistic and positive members of the community.
So until this extraordinary evidence is presented I will continue expressing my “dull outlook”, just as other people are entitled to express their happy happy joy joy outlook.
The irony that we are debating about what state of development Darkfall is actually in, which is substantiated for most supporters generally by what the developers have told us but not actually shown us so far , in a thread that demonstrates that one of those developers has possibly been caught lying I hope is not lost on you.